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Revision as of 20:42, 6 November 2024

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: RM, Salafi → Salafism, Moved to Salafi movement, 3 March 2013, Talk:Salafi movement/Archive 3 § Requested move RM, Salafi movement → Salafism, No consensus, 19 November 2014, Talk:Salafi movement/Archive 5 § Requested move 19 November 2014

Persistent undoing of edits in the Sweden section

I have better things to do with my time than creating a Misplaced Pages account and becoming an "editor". The user 1Kwords has persistently and spitefully undone a legitimate edit of the section on Sweden, hiding behind Misplaced Pages policies of one form or another. The claim "Salafists in Sweden are supported financially by Saudi Arabia and Qatar" is utterly devoid of evidence. Nothing! "It was said in a newspaper article so it must be true because a newspaper article is the source in this case" is the sum of the position evident from 1Kwords' persistent, petty undoing of edits. First of all 1Kwords claimed that "Magnus Ranstorp said it" - NOT TRUE. Next, 1Kwords attempted to protest that Magnus Ranstorp is an "expert" (irrelevant). If anyone anywhere in the world wants to make the claim that Saudi Arabia or Qatar financially supports any Salafis anywhere, let them bring one of two things: either a verified document proving the transfer of money, or a person who would swear in court on oath 'yes we received money from so-and-so'. Failing that, "a newspaper said it" is a pathetic, untenable position. This whole farce serves to underline Misplaced Pages's junk status, and that Wiki editors are pretentious pedants who hide behind absurd policies and use said policies to pursue an Islam-hating agenda.

An article by some crazy "NewageIslam" website states: "Saudi Arabia has funded the construction of some mosques in Sweden . There had also been rising number of Salafists in the country." Yet again, the claim of "financial support" is made and....there is no evidence for it. None, nothing, nil.

Please define Salafi movement

Defining the Salafi movement is necessary to speak about it. Without a clear-cut definition the article would not convey any meaning. Neutralhappy (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Where is the definition missing? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

With a proper definition we would be able to identify which groups belong to the Salafi movement. For that what criteria has to be met to be categorised as a group that belongs to the Salafi movement should be included in the definition.

Moreover the differences or similarities between Wahhabism and Salafism has to be included. This will help identify Salafi groups easily. Preparing a chart would be highly useful.

In the page for Wahhabism, we see several definitions for Wahhabism. Neutralhappy (talk) 07:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hanafi view on music, drawing, pictures, etc

@VenusFeuerFalle

It wouldnt be accurate to assume that Salafis have a homogenous take on "music, drawing, etc". There are internal disputes within Salafi scholars over these issues. For example, the Salafist clerics like Shawkani asserted that music was permissible. Rashid Rida believed that drawing pictures of animate objects was permissible, etc.

Nor is it academically fair to imply that there is a homogenous take on music, drawing, etc. within the four schools either. However, the vast majority of positions (including the mu'tamad ,i.e, official posotion) within the 4 traditional madhabs prohibit music.

These are primary sources, and I am linking some popular Hanafite (non-Salafi) fatwa websites: 1 (states that music is prohibited in Hanafi madhab) 2 3 4 (clearly states that drawing animate objects is prohibited in Hanafi madhab)

The statement that these positions have "legal precedents within the 4 madhabs" are factually correct. That is not to suggest that neither Salafis nor the 4 madhabs have a unanimous view on these issues. This implies that these are legal differences of "Ikhtilaf", and not a doctrinal point of contention.

Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

True, it might be a prejudice and the source, after rechecking, is merely an interview about a woman who adheres to this interpretation. I would be fine if we remove this source altogether. It doesn't seem to contribute anything significant nad might create artificial sharp distinctions between Salafism and Sunnism. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Revert discussion

Since the edit summary is not for discussion, here the summary in case someone has an urge to discuss this:

religious blogpages do not fall under the category of WP:RS and an explanation of the Salafs is Template:Off topic except you want to suggest that there is a relation between Salafs and Salafis, but this directly contradicts the Misplaced Pages guidlines and the purpose of an encyclopedia

VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

"Salafi Muslims oppose bid'a (religious innovation) and support the implementation of sharia (Islamic law)."

I'm confused about this statement. Islam as a whole is opposed to religious innovation; this is not unique to the Salafi movement. Neither is the implementation of shari'ah. This sentence gives no useful information whatsoever. 21fafs (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Article Short Summary

@Shadowwarrior8 Greetings, maybe it is better to discuss this here, as the limitations on the edit summary can easily lead to misunderstandings.

First of all, I want to let you know that I respect your great improvements and edits on the article.

I do not insist on ading 'ultra' as a descriptor for 'conservative' in the short descriptions. However, if objected, I want to ensure it is rejected for good reasons. I see you point two points: 1) the term has a negative connotation 2) the term doesn't apply to all forms of the Salafi Movement.

I am inclined to reject the first reason as valid, because authors cannot consider misitnerpretations of terminology by laymen. 'Ultra conservate' are not to be understood as "transgressing" the conservative values, but rather sticking to a more conservative interpretations than other conservative parties. This seems to apply to at least some Salafi Movements.

The second arguement seems much better and Western academia might oversimplify the Salafism Movement, which has developed further in the last decades. However, do you think, if we understand 'ultra conservative' not in a bad manner but simply as analogous to other extrem forms of conservativism (for example Haredi Judaism), is not applicable to all forms of Salafism? For example, there are conservative movements in Turkey who are not as conservative as Salafism, yet conservative. Or would such movements already fall under the umbrella term "Salafism"?

I would give you the last word on taht matter. Since you greatly improved the article and shown a decent expertise on that matter, I think it is just reasonable to assume you know better than most editors. My dispute is merely with the possible misudnerstanding on 'ultra'. If you still say it is misleading, i won't edit war further on that.

with best regards VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

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