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habit?

I've heard it said that the style of outfits worn by Christian nuns reflects what would be typical for a mourning widow to wear at the time the order was created. Is there substance to this? --Elijah 20:10, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC) hello every1

First off let me explain that I am Greek Orthodox with a fairly extensive knowledge in this area, however, that does not apply to Roman Catholic monastics. Hopefully a member of the Catholic Church will answer this more fully.

Orthodox Monastics do not have orders. They trace the beginnings of monasticism and monastic garb back to the 1st century in the Egyptian desert. From an Orthodox point of view, the reason monks and nuns wear black is because they are dead to the world. The modern Orthodox monastic garb is not much different that monastic garb of the 1st century. The robe is often wool, qualifying it as a "hair" shirt. The Schema that is worn by advanced monastics represents the chains that ascetics would wear to chastise the flesh. Phiddipus 23:18, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Elijah, basically yes, that is how religous habits got going in the Western Church. DaveTroy 9 Dec 2005

Some types of Catholic nuns wear habits and others just wear normal civilian attire. I'm not sure what the distinctions are; can anyone explain?

Each community sets its own rules. Some kept a full habit, some a modified habit, some no habit.DaveTroy 21:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The community I belong to, as a religous sister, was founded by Elizabeth Seton, who continued to wear "widows weeds" as she moved into becoming a founder of a religious community. Vatican II mandated religious communities to go back to their original roots, their original mission, and distinguish between accretions and essentials. In going back, one of the things we noticed was that founders of religious communities wore the dress of the day. The dress became a cherished point of identification among congregations but with the mandate of Vatican II and a dollup of common sense and a stronger mission focus, appearance became less important than being who we say we are and doing what we say we're about. As D Troy indicates, each congregation's rule, determined in chapter sessions of the members, determines how the individual religious institute handles identification.

However for the most part, and I can think of very few exceptions, nuns as opposed to sisters, still wear the habit. The latest trend these days is that congregations that still wear a habit get the lions share of new vocations. The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia for one had 17 postulants this year. And loking through forums etc. Most of the young people discerning say they have no intention of joining a congregation that goes habitless so to speak. Williamb 22:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Referencing

How and can I reference this page? I need to cite the page on nun's and any other[REDACTED] pages if this is possible.

Here are instructions for Citing_Wikipedia.

Canonical Reference

I changed the paragraph about submitting the consitutions to Rome for approval to reflect and site the current law, as laid out by JP2 in Pastor BonusDaveTroy 21:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Sisters' colleges

I wanted to add a link to the article about Assumption College for Sisters, which is the last "nun college" in the United States, but...I had no idea where to put it. Are there enough sisters' colleges left outside of the U.S. that we could make a list of some sort? It seems like it would be a good thing to include, but at the same time, just listing one is pretty pointless and doesn't show importance. Beginning 22:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC) Have added link--Simon Speed 19:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Controversy

As a Catholic and as a Religous I find the link to the so called "sisters" of Perpetual Indulgence offensive. Am I alone in thinking this? DaveTroy

I do too. Williamb 21:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

24hrs, link to S of Perp Indulgence is removed. It has nothing to do with the ariticle at hand. DaveTroy 14:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the logic to the link of Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence? They have NOTHING to do with nuns or what they stand for? If anything, they are the opposite. The so called sisters do nothing but indulge themselves -- the opposite of what nuns do. Further, it is offensive to consider them in the same breath as the women religous. DaveTroy

• Besides they are not in the least bit cloistered, nor do they take a vow of chastity. Williamb 17:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Link restored:- I have restored the link to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. It has been there in the past and has been removed because the organisation is disliked by the religious right and its members do not conform to a church definition of "nun". However, the SPI do consider themselves nuns, wear habits and engage in charity work. They actively promote a moral position (a liberal one) both in words and by example. Denying mention of this small, but colourful order (which recieves a lot of press coverage) is censorship. Articles are required to have a neutral point of view where alternative viewpoints are reflected but not promoted (and that is supposed to go for the right as much as the left). I have also put in a link to the Magdalene Laundries reflecting serious controversy which ought to be reported elsewhere in the article.--Simon Speed 19:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I would argue for a twofold 'test': do they consider themselves to be nuns? Are they seen as nuns by society and/or relevant experts? I think the answer to the first 'test' is a clear yes and the second one a clear no. Any suggestions or comments?

GuyIncognito 12:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you have both criteria needed to be met for a group to be nuns, or just one of the two? And why? Who exactly are the relevant experts and where have they ruled the SPI non-nuns? --Simon Speed 18:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Here, Guy, you see the problem. Simon wants this stuff here and will hear no arguments to the contrary.

Is there a way to propose part of an article for deletion, the way you can propose the whole thing? Goldfritha 18:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The 'test' I developed was just something that I came up with. I see the first part as necessary so that we limit our investigation to those that actually claim to be nuns. The second part I see as necessary because it seems sensible to require something more than 'self-identification' in order to label someone as being something (in relation to a profession or 'calling'). I thought to myself why some people are identified as physicians, why some are called police officers and why some are called school teachers and I came to the conclusion that an individual must do more than merely identify themselves as being one, but that society, either through a broad social consensus or some instrument of government, 'ratifies' that identity in some way. I cannot offer any study that shows that society, or, say, religious scholars, don't identify the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence" as being nuns. But I would argue that the onus is upon the claimant to prove that such groups do identify the "SPI" as nuns.

I don't see why this is such an issue, but I am not in a position to judge the motives of others. The title 'nun' has, to my knowledge, only been applied to religious groups up to this point. The SPI may adhere to a particular philosophy and engage in some commendable works, but as far as I am aware they themselves don't claim to be 'religious' in any sense. I can see that if this dispute continues that some serious research into sociology and religion may be required as well as a formal dispute resolution of some kind. I don't think that it is important enough an issue to go to that kind of trouble.

GuyIncognito 07:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it fair to put SPI into joke religion. First, they aren't trying to creat a religion. Second, their purpose is not religious.

As to SPI in this category, "nun" is a jurdic term as well as one in popular parlance. By the definitionof the word, SPI simply does not apply.DaveTroy 15:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, new-ish to wikipeda but very familiar with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence They are nuns to those in their communities they serve even though they are not tied down to one church or set of beliefs. There are quite a few FEMALE Sisters as well as it seems the gender issue has some completely bothered.

Perhaps this discussion could also enliven the concept that there are many who do consider the Sisters nuns but they simply aren't publishing encyclopedias? The Sisters are widely quoted in newpapers, books and magazines but as a much newer group (founded 1979) they are considered upstarts compared with traditional viewpoints of who and what a nun is - and i think that is the point. They challenged many concepts of gender and power and seem to have a few of those here absolutely obsessed with seeing them discredited and banished from even being thought about as nuns. Mission accomplished indeed.

My hunch is they absolutely shoul dbe a part of the article and maybe slightly discredited by calling them alternative nuns or simply drag nuns which is a term they use.

But if denial is your bag then by all means. Benjiboi 15:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC) benji

Sorry, but your comments have really caused me to enter the (old) debate here. They do not fall under the definition of a nun. Far from it. There's no controversy to be had here. "Slightly discredited" is an understatement. Do you think the Lostprophets should be put in the Prophet article and then "slightly discredited" as "drag prophets"?

Challenging definitions or no, they still are not nuns. I applaud their try at challenging the definitions, if any, but these definitions are not going to change for them. This is what has come to past and shall be.

And please don't label us as liking to deny. There's a lot more to life than trying to wrongly preempt. Ariedartin JECJY 18:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the point is who is to say who is a nun or a healer or a priestess. Every religion starts as a cult then evolves into something on the way to where they are now. The Sisters consider themselves to be nuns and that in itself is enough as they run their organization and set the rules just as other religions have structure, rules and titles are suits the needs.

Can't speak to the reference of prophets being lost or in drag although we were all born naked so we are all in drag per se. As for the denialist comment it may have seemed over the top but then again perhaps it was correctly on target. Knowledge is power!Benjiboi 12:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Who is to say? Well, here on Misplaced Pages, the consensus. Goldfritha 01:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is reached through dialog and not simple majority rules. And just because wikipedians deem what they think is a nun or anything else hardly makes it so. Benjiboi 06:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

See also (More SPI Controversy)

This page is about nuns. The See also links should be only those that would illuminate the topic of the page. Goldfritha 00:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Very well I shall have to put together something longer that will illuminate the topic. The SPI are a small order of nuns, but they cast a completely new light on what nuns can be and what spirituality can be. There is a separate article on the SPI, but they need to be referred to in any discussion of modern nuns. I thought a simple link would be enough - evidently not. I am quite happy to have different sides of the controversy around this order aired but not to have it suppressed. --Simon Speed 01:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you expect a longer section to be treated with any more indulgence than the link? Goldfritha 03:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all thankyou for replying, I just wish you would address some of my arguments. Could we at least agree to cut and paste this section to Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Controversy where it will make more sense?

I do not expect or ask for indulgence from anyone. (Don't indulgences have a rather bad reputation?) I do expect that my editing and points of view are respected. I expect that other editors will ensure balance by insisting that alternative points of view are represented (but not think that a consevative Catholic view can justify itself as anywhere near an overwhelming orthodoxy) and that controversial views are not simply censored away. You state that the SPI page is simply irrelevant: it is hardly a motoring or maths page is it?

For any confused reader, we are discussing the deletion of the link to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence on the nun page.--Simon Speed 21:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Inserting unrelated material -- about non-nuns, no less -- into an article deserves no respect. Goldfritha 00:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The status of the SPI as nuns has been discussed on the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence page argued for by me here already. Once again you have not challenged the arguments, but simply asserted that the SPI are "non-nuns". I'm sure that according to the rules of the catholic church this is true, but the same goes for Buddhists and every other religion and philosophy that lie outside its walls. You believe they are non-nuns, they believe they are nuns and so do many others. Even if you are right, do you seriously believe they are "unrelated". It seems that you need this fiction of "irrelevant" or "unrelated" to justify censorship (removing rather than putting the opposing view).--Simon Speed 00:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Of course Buddhist nuns are nuns. But calling yourself a nun does not make you one, dressing up does not making you one, and doing charity work does not make you one. Read the lede if you have any doubts. (Religious sisters, as this article explains, do the second two without being nuns.) Goldfritha 23:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

If you must edit war please don't claim to be removing vandalism. Material is not vandalism simply because you disagree with it. Please read the relevant Misplaced Pages articles before proceding further eg. Misplaced Pages:Vandalism.

"Of course Buddhist nuns are nuns" - really? There is no "of course" about it. By the rules of the Catholic Church they are no more nuns than I am. They belong to a group in which they claim to be nuns, are accepted as nuns and fulfil the role of nuns. Neutral observers identify them as nuns because of these sociological facts, not because of any "of course".

You state that Religious sisters dress up and do charity work without being nuns, but this article covers lay sisters as wel as "nuns proper" as defined by the Catholic church. The distinction is explained in an earlier section: the sisters are not edited out. Perhaps you should add something to the SPI section suggest that they are in fact Religious sisters.

This article covers all those to whom the term "nun" applies. If you check the SPI website (follow the link from the Misplaced Pages page), you will see that they make no claim to dress as nuns but rather to be nuns. If you also read coverage in the Bay Area Reporter you will see that they are accepted in that role by a large cultural group of which they are members. --Simon Speed 01:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course the Buddhist nuns are nuns. Do you have any reference at all that Catholics do not consider them nuns?

That this group calls themselves nuns is not relevant. If they called themselves ducks, they would not be suitable for the Duck page. They are obviously not nuns by the lede on this article. Goldfritha 00:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Modern Catholicism has turned rather tolerant on the subject of other religions. It wasn't always so. The nasty attitudes go all the way back to Origen who held that other religions worshiped demons. Do a search on "burning times" to get a glimpse of some of the worst of it. Even now with regard to Anglicans (the Protestants closest to Catholicism) you can get quotes like "Episcopal ordination does not produce a valid priest" . (Not a good example but found quickly with one Google).

Argument from definition: the opening lines of the article define nun in such a way that the SIP should be excluded. The Catechism of the first lines has been recited, oh dear. My dictionary says that nuns are also pagan priestesses, who seem to missing here. We're dealing with social functions, which can and (as the SPI pages and Bay Area Reporter show) do develop with time.

And Ducks. Can the Pope ordain Ducks? Your argument relies on the impossibilty of anyone being a duck, so the person making the claim is silly and we're lead to feel that someone claiming to be a nun is silly. But if there were a group of people who actually managed to somehow take on the role of ducks, I do think they'd warrant a mention on the duck page, in fact rather a big one!--Simon Speed 01:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Random comments about "burning times" only reinforce the problem that you do not, in fact, have any ground to assert that Catholics do not -- and have not -- regarded Buddhist nuns as nuns. Goldfritha 18:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The comment about the burning times was far from random, it was intended rto lead you to a whole raft of well documented material that showed Catholic tradition conceding no validity to any non Judeo-Christian faith whatsoever. The followers of these faiths whatever their role within them were considered witches and as suitable victims for murder. The current Catholic church, though vastly more liberal, is quite clear that it alone can validly give the status of priest, nun, monk or saint (to the dead). The issue only really comes up with Anglicans (because of the historical links) but even there the line is clear . What the Catholic church says about protestants, goes (only much more so) for non-Christian religions.

Coming back to ducks. If you look at the duck page you'll see a picture of Daffy illustrating "Ducks and humor" (my quotes). There are no quotes around the word duck in spite of Daffy being a bizarre blend of duck and human. By comparison the SPI are the very paradigm of nunhood. --Simon Speed 21:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the current text and link to SPI makes it very clear what they are,a nd no association with Catholic nuns is likely to be accidentally assumed. (and incidentally, the church saved more accused witches than killed them -- it was the civillians who were the bloodiest) --Scix 02:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but you need something more than "they won't be confused with Catholic nuns" (or Buddhist nuns for that matter) to be in the Nun article. If you put in a section about ducks, people would be unlike to confuse the ducks with nuns, but that's not a justification. Goldfritha 23:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, I have limited experience to Misplaced Pages but have served as the archivist for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc. in San Francisco and feel well qualified to speak to some of the issues brought up.

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are indeed nuns and do take vows and serve their respective communities just as nuns have throughout history. Four of the main differences from traditional nuns are they

1. Have no formal religious sect they are tied to instead weaving together modern ritual and public service from a variety of traditions including pagan, wiccan, faerie and eastern spiritualities.

2. Are extremely independent and matriarchal rather than led by one man or one leader they are usually democratic and.or consensus-based.

3. Are sex-positive and sex-affirming rather than sex-shaming.

4. Are queer, gay and kink friendly and focussed.

They are well aware that other religious groups are ruffled or offended by thier presence but are probably just as offended by heterosexist and judeo-christian leanings which affect their lives as well.

No nuns -- not Catholic, not Orthodox, not Buddhist -- are nuns in order to "serve their respective communities," and many such nuns do not perform any such service.

And the offense is irrelevant. Just as if you claimed to be ducks, the problem would not be that you offend anyone by the claim, but that you are, in fact, not ducks. Goldfritha 22:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well hard to argue with logic like that. We will certainly need to agree to disagree - my understanding is that nuns either chose to become a nun or were forced due to poverty or family circumstances (again usually due to class issues). Many are nuns to serve the community despite your assesrtations that that couldn't be true. And I think the offense - real or perceived - is the only issue as the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are well used to being the "faeries in the coal mine" for homophobia, classism, mysogyny and a host of other hate-based words and deeds that seem to spew toward them.Benjiboi 03:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Stereotype of nuns

Somehow I have bouncing around my head a silly stereotype of nuns as holding rulers in their hands and rapping people's knuckles with them. Where'd that come from, and how did it come to be so widespread? 204.52.215.107 04:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It's the evil influence of the media and the even more eveil influence of observation of reality:-) --Simon Speed 02:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment

This is a controversy about whether a group of activists called the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence belongs on this page. 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• The lede from this article is clear enough: "In general, a nun is a female ascetic who chooses to voluntarily leave mainstream society and live her life in prayer and contemplation in a monastery or convent." They're not women, and they're not ascetics. Goldfritha 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Would those commenting please start by reading the debate that has already taken place on the talk page. It seems strange that the exclusion of the SPI is being justified on the basis of neutrality, as the bulk of the article currently reads like an exteact from a Catholic encyclopedia. --Simon Speed 01:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I had read the debate before I commented. Andries 00:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Comments

• Move to Joke religion. Self-labelling is not enough for inclusion unless may be if they were very notable for which I see little indication or evidence. Andries 16:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• The burden of evidence is always on those desiring inclusion. What independent sources that are reliable sources describe the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence as nuns? For the present, there are no such references either here or in the article on the SPI. Without such references, the relevant policy is this quote from WP:NPOV#Undue weight "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research." So the material should be removed from this article. For anything substantial to be here, the test is "it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". GRBerry 18:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• The SPI is a social activism group. It doesn't bear more than a superficial comparison to actual nuns. Durova 14:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Actually it tends to masquerade as a social action group more than do THAT much good work. They don't fit any of the definitions of a nun, which is fairly standard throughout the religious world. Williamb 12:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Actually they were formed as social activists and have established Orders worldwide of other social activists so hardly masquerading at all. Just because you don' think the work they do is good (educating, empowering and fundraising, etc for queer people) doesn't make it any less so.Benjiboi 04:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• Also the definition of a nun is hardly standard throughout the world - just the world you are familiar with and acknowledge as is evident by this entire discussion.Benjiboi 04:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• This SPI group is not a monastic community. It is clear that Simon Speed the proponent of including the SPI group in the "nun" article wants to promote a "new and innovative definition" of the word "nun". Nuns are women, but we can see from the SPI article: "Originally, the organization included only gay male nuns, but it now includes people of all genders and orientations including intersex, gay or homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, and transgendered." Drawing from admissions already made by Simon Speed one can only conclude that this is nothing but an attempt to hijack the dictionary and to offend as many people as possible. I think the operative things to remember here are WP:POINT and Wikilawyering is disruptive and inappropriate. Simon Speed's actions are pure vandalism and deserve no support. DismasMama 08:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

And now we have personal attacks - ah but I mustn't object because that's Wikilawyering. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition but that may have bit naive, given the nature of this page of the dictionary (sic). I have been trying to get some balance in against the dead hand of the religious right.--Simon Speed 19:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Simon, you will have to admit that this is farcical and SPI was from the very beginning. There is nothing in common with nuns except for the use of a habit, which was intended to be a farce. You are allowing your POV spoil the value of WIKI and of this article. Storm Rider 23:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Storm, I must admit that the Sisters are funny: but they intend to be funny - their logo is the laughing nun. I doubt that Sister Edith Myflesh was baptised with that name. But then if you meet a Catholic nun called Sister Theresa you'll find that she wasn't baptised with that name either. These are new names taken when an individual joins an order, only the SPI have a sense of humour. I think you'll find that the humour is always used in the service of the Sisters' stated moral goals.

Perhaps farce is sugested to you by the idea of females being men. Male priestesses may seem an impossibilty to the conservative Christian mind or even just bad grammar but they were a norm in traditional American societies. If you look at the NPOV article you'll see in the list of biases that we're exhorted to avoid, Heteronormativity. The part of the statement starting this RFC "...female ascetic ....They're not women..." is a paradigm of heteronormative bias.

Perhaps farce is sugested by the Sisters performing events such as a condom saviour mass on Easter Sunday. Conservative Christians squeal "blasphemy", but the sisters know that loving thy neighbour means using a condom and saving thy neighbour from AIDS, and coyness was never much good at getting a message across. The Catholic Church has campaigned throughout Africa against condom use with great success, resulting in untold death and misery, which the Catholic Church can then minister to. Don't you find those antics farcical, if rather unfunny? Do you remember somebody saying "By their fruit shall ye know them"?--Simon Speed 22:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And if the Sisters claimed that they were ducks, and you were trying to put them into the article on ducks, you could claim that objections that they were not birds is a paradigm of avianormative bias. That wouldn't make them ducks. Goldfritha 00:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I love the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence; I've seen them three times. I'm glad they're around. The SPI, however, are not associated with a church of any kind. They're not cloistered. They don't have a common spiritual practice. They haven't taken a vow of celibacy. They aren't nuns, and bear little resemblance to nuns - which to my mind is a large part of the humor.

I feel the article is well written, and I learned a lot - I did not know, for example, that there were nuns in Jainism or in Eastern Orthodoxy. A reference to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence would be irrelevant.

It would be great to have a page about them, since they have a long history and are certainly notable.

I'm disappointed by some of the more pointed and, frankly, unkind responses to Simon Speed. We can disagree a little more gently and not drag this out. NinzEliza 05:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

NinzEliza, there is a page about them. Goldfritha 23:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

IMO The article is not improved by their inclusion. Surely, the main purpose of this debate should be the article not the SPI.

Inclusion would also necessitate a re-writing of major portions of the article in order to avoid contradiction. For example:

To be a nun, one must

• Live in a cloistered community or monastery
• Belong to an order the members of which eventually take the solemn vows and
• Recite the Liturgy of the Hours or other prayers together with her community.

Nuns are restricted from leaving the cloister, though some may engage in limited teaching or other vocational work depending on the strictness of enforcement.

--sony-youth 20:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Agree with NinzEliza. I love them, but not in this article. Thesmothete 16:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• It's not Misplaced Pages's duty to determine who is or is not a nun. Misplaced Pages only reports on how other sources regard nuns. I have not seen any evidence produced to indicate that any significant number of independent sources consider SIP to be nuns. Keeping in mind the principle of undue weight, I don't think that there is sufficient reason to include details about them in this article. A link to the SIP article in the "See also" section is probably fine though. —Cswrye 21:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• THE SPI are no more nuns, than a female impersonator belting out If I could turn back time is Cher. They deserve their own page, but don't belong here. I don't anyone looking for information on the SPI is going to search on nun.Caper13 06:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Cswrye. Unless you have a couple of credible sources calling them nuns you CAN'T put them here- that would be OR. So cite sources that say they ARE nuns in the traditional sense of the word or... end of story. Sethie 04:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Seems the Sisters have gotten some folks terribly hot & bothered! The Sisters are a young group (established 1979) so finding many "credible" sources will certainly be a challenge but one well worth it. The Sisters are nuns and will be nuns virtually cloistered and perfoming miracles wether included in this article or not. With the heatedess of the discussion to date it would seem painfully obvious that they should be included ina section about post-modern nuns at least! I know that all nuns fit the litmus tests spelled out so far - you might start with the female part which is problematic for trans and intersex nuns but spin your wheels against the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence if you must. I will heartily second the concept that Simon raised about the article seeming to favor Roman Catholicism viewpoints above all else - hardly neutral there but carry on. Benjiboi 03:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Definition

So Simonxag is now trying to stick "pagan priestess" and "courtesan" in the reference as "related definitions." This doesn't contribute to the article, either. Goldfritha 03:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Simon is trying to stick what it says in the OED in the definition. I understand there is a religious-right concensus among most editors. But we are supposed to stick to FACTS (even above truth). More serious was the removal (I assume accidentally) of all the non-cutesy movie references. This was originally a piece of vandalism by a character who I find deleted all the stuff about Judaism from the priest page. Curiously the other editors (the religious right concensus) had ignored that quiet disappearance which I reverted. How nice a world must be when Jews and gays and anything we don't like just quietly disappears, but then a nasty annoying Simon comes along. --Simon Speed 17:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Simon, that definition is not relevant to the article.

Would you prefer another Request for Comment to be sure what the consensus is? Goldfritha 00:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As you might suspect I'm not terribly impressed by the concensus on this page. How about we stick to facts from a recognised authority?

OED does not tell you that those definitions are relevant to this page. Which recognized authority are you citing for that? Goldfritha 00:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The OED contains a group of 3 related definitions. I thought 2 were less important for the page so relegated them to the footnote. Perhaps all 3 should be there in the 1st paragraph. I would argue that the actual definition (from a most reputable source) is pretty relevant to a page where a religious-right definition (totally unsourced) has been used for so long to determine the page's content. The view of nuns in the mainstream media, from newspapers to accademia, is totally at odds with this pious twaddle (to call it Catholic is unfair to a church that had Vatican II half a century ago). Goldfritha why don't you source some of the "Catholic" stuff or delete that for a change? --Simon Speed 01:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The actual definition is what we are trying to keep. You are trying to insert irrevelant information. All sorts of definitions get clumped together; it does not mean they are all relavant to a page on one of them.

As for sourcing, I might -- if I had reason to believe that it would do any good. As there is a Wikipedian who insists on putting irrelavant information, and I don't know what else he would do, I would rather put my efforts where I have reason to believe they won't be trampled on. Goldfritha 01:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Websters online definition of a nun is the following

"a woman belonging to a religious order; especially : one under solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience."

The very nature of the word requires aestheticism. What ever the virtues of any other group, the word means what it means. The result is only a woman can be a nun, and by definition has taken vows of a particular kind. DaveTroy 11:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

List of movies

Does this add anything to the article? Especially since it is limited to one medium; nuns have appeared in all sorts of art. Goldfritha 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it could list here , I already have created a page The Nun , and listed some movies , I think it could be redirect here , and then movies be listed here. Ali CraLazyEative 14:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, a redirect would make more sense, and allow a distinction between movies about historical persons and fictional persons.DaveTroy 11:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment

This is a dispute about whether all the OED definitions -- including "courtesan" -- should be listed on this page. 02:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• The mere fact that these are listed as alternative definitions does not prove they belong here, and no other reason is given. The definitions do not in fact say anything important about nuns. Goldfritha 02:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• There has been some dispute on this page over the content of this article. Some of the arguments were based on a spurious definition in the intro. I went to the OED and looked up the real definition and this is the result. The 2 related definitions did not seem as important, which is why I stuck them in the footnote, nevertheless they are quirky (maybe annoying) little facts. But if facts are annoying, it is no reason for them to be excluded. I remember the church having some problems with awkward facts that Gallileo published.--Simon Speed 01:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Comments Ummm unless you have other sources explaining it, I'd say you have an interesting piece of trivia. Maybe list it at the end if the editor NEEDS it there? Sethie 03:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Even trivia has to be relevant, and these aren't. (The editor only added them after the Request for Comment above disagreed with him about what was suitable for the article.) 03:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone just reverted the reversal, saying that this trivia was NEEDED? :) Please explain, how that un-coorborated, factoid is NEEDED?Sethie 18:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Calling a fact a "factoid" does not render it non-factual, it just signals that you don't like it. If something coming from the OED can be counted as "uncorroborated" then so can absolutely anythieng. Editors wanting to challenge this material should go verify the source: they will find it is correct. Have a look at the standards for a good article that the box at the top of this page urges the Nun article to b improved towards. They include both a Neutral Point of View and Breadth. This article has a narrow and grossly biased (ultra-reverent religious) coverage of its material which makes irreverent or quirky facts and links seem wrong (it is almost as if we are in church). Anything that can broaden and balance the article is NEEDED. If you want to set up a separate Trivia section, do so, but in the meantime a footnote remains the most appropriate place. --Simon Speed 23:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Your assumption is incorrect, I did not use the word "factiod" to imply that it is not true. I used to term to connote (rather unsuccesfully it seems!) that it isn't relevant to the article. Come on.... do you serioulsy think EVERY fact about nuns should be included?

"This article has a narrow and grossly biased (ultra-reverent religious) coverage of its material which makes irreverent or quirky facts and links seem wrong (it is almost as if we are in church)." Well, actually we are in an encyclopedia. Until you provide sources that say otherwise, Nun is a religious term, and one citation from a dictionary don't cut it.

"Have a look at the standards for a good article that the box at the top of this page urges the Nun article to b improved towards." There is no such box. One section asks for sources. Sethie 00:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The box that you cannot see is at the top of this page, directly under "Talk:Nun ". The precise words are "Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details". The link from good is to a page that staes that a good article needs to be broad and NPOV. The box ends with the statement "This article has been marked as needing immediate attention." The reviewer may or may not agree with me in this dispute, but at least not everybody thinks that god's in his heaven and all's right with the page. --Simon Speed 00:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Those, apparently, are the words you can't see. You are actively vandalizing efforts to improve the page by removing the irrelevant from it. Goldfritha 00:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I see them now, on the talk page, my mistake. Sethie 01:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Photograph "Roman Catholic Nuns singing Gregorian Chant"

I googled for the "Daughters of Mary", who are described for this photo as "Roman Catholic nuns". They actually belong to the "Society of St. Pius V", that is not only not in Communion with the Pope, but is also sedevacantist (they are saying that there is no real Pope now). The description "Roman Catholic nuns" is thus misleading. I propose that the description of the picture should be altered or (better) the pic should be replaced by another one from a real Catholic community that wears the unmodified habit (Benedictines, Poor Clares etc.). The only problem now is copyright... Lumendelumine 21:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Photograph "Taoist nun"

There is a picture of a Taoist nun in this article. First, there is nothing about Taoist nuns in the article, so the picture seems kinda inrrelevant. Secondly, I have my doubts that they exist. I am a religious studies student at university and I have never came across something like a Taoist nun. Correct me if I am wrong though. Eva 23:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

a Nun is not always a woman, a Monk is not always a man

I'd be willing to bet any changes I make would be quickly squashed by the gender police but I do take exception to the opening lines that insist a nun is a woman which is insulting to not only those who are clearly not women but also transgender and intersex nuns and monks who don't ascribe to the binary either/or world of male or female. I can live with the wording a "nun is usually female" and "a monk is usually male" as I feel that that is accurate. As the world's population grows and medical science expands we're understanding more and more that ambiguous genitals can be left as is rather than the traditional approach of doctors choosing which gender a baby should be.Benjiboi 21:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

What you feel is accurate is not a valid source in Misplaced Pages. Goldfritha 23:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's an answer of sorts. Reality doesn't count on Misplaced Pages? Do you need a John-Hopkins reference that babies are born with ambiguous genitalia? Perhaps you have a source that clearly proves that no nuns exist that aren't female and no monks exist that aren't male?Benjiboi 15:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Sister Mary Elizabeth Clark is a transgendered nun, Catalina de Erauso was an intersex Roman Catholic nun. Most hermaphrodites, transgender and intersex people tend to avoid bringing attention to this aspect of themselves and often it's when a person dies or is killed that that aspect of their lives is known.Benjiboi 22:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not a page even to discuss nuns in general. It is certainly not a page to discuss physical sexual abnormalities. Goldfritha 03:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Ooops, my bad! I thought it was better to use the talk discussion page to propose changes to the Nun article, perhaps I missed an announcement that that is no longer true? I assert that the Nun article be changed to reflect that a nun is usually a woman but not always. I would hope that personal bias could be set aside for a better article.Benjiboi 06:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Then you shouldn't have gone off on a tangent. Goldfritha 17:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what tangent you're deflecting to, my case has remained the same asserting that a nun can only be a woman is not accurate and the article should change to reflect that. It seems to me you kept deflecting to a personal tangent instead. Benjiboi 18:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, nuns are women. end of conversation. This isn't a mater of bias; it's a matter of fact. Take a look at the published corpus on the matter. Yours is a fringe opinion. Majoreditor 20:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"End of conversation", how educational and open-minded. As is pointed out elsewhere in[REDACTED] nuns are not always women and monks are not always men. By the way, just because some thing is or is not widely accepted or published hardly make it so just widely accepted until shown to be otherwise. Benjiboi 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The argument is a bit silly. The terms monk and nun - also monastery and convent, are anglisized terms used alternatly for men and women and their religious dwellings. In fact, traditionally and in ancient usage a more correct term would be monastic or ascetic or anchorite or hesychast, and their dwelling a monastery. These terms apply to men and women. See above - in the Orthodox Church the terms are the same. The arguments about transgendered, etc are valid, but even more so, there are a number of famous "monks" (St Theodora the Great, St Evgenia, Etc.) who lived their entire monastic lives in monasteries among men, pretending to be men. The fact they were female was not discovered until they died. --Phiddipus 05:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Article Is Biased Against Most things Non-Catholic

When I first came to this article I had hoped to be a bit more inspired about the true (amazing) history of what nuns have done throughout history and continue to do every day throughout the world. Nuns of every race, most religions/spiritualities (I think) and how they have adapted to life's challenges and the ever-changing cultural make-up of so many places in the world where languages and peoples of vastly different experience intersect - is what I had hoped to find. Instead I get a (very) old-schooled lesson in Catholicism and seemingly endless tunnel vision limiting a nun's role and potential more than any pope has ever done. Simply because there is a majority rules mentality (AKA might equals right) doesn't make it right and nuns fight injustice where I'm from. Let's help the rest of the world see the changing face and role of nuns, I want to be able to read about the nuns who have been working behind the scenes t bring an end to war and environmental genocides in ravaged countries. If not for knowledge do it for the very selfish reason that it might encourage more people to be nuns and take up the fight for justice for those who are not able to fend for themselves.Benjiboi 13:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not Misplaced Pages's purpose to sell people on becoming nuns. Furthermore, as there have been nuns for thousands of years, I note that your emphasis is on the last century, no more. (And not all nuns fit your template, even there.) Please try to keep events in historical perspective. Goldfritha 00:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Simply because Catholicism has successfully wiped out other cultures (and the nuns with it) wholesale does not make it the standard or history's only mainstay of who is a nun or should be. Seemingly most traces of pagan or other non-Catholic-ish nuns have either been purged, ignored or existence denied in favor of stereotypes perpetuated. As far as "selling folks on becoming nuns" I was simply hoping to enliven the concepts that nuns often, although certainly not always, strive for a higher calling beyond self-interest - in this case hopefully for future generations. Benjiboi 07:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Step out of your country and go see the world! There are many nuns in many different traditions. Not just Catholicism, and not just Christianity, too!Greetings, Sacca 14:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It is blatant cultural imperialism to fit other people's religious institutions into a Christian, European mold. Goldfritha 01:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we certainly agree there. The article seems to have a quite of few culturally imperialistic leanings. Perhaps delving into more of the origins of nuns and development into religious and spiritual service before breaking into separate sects would be of benefit. Benjiboi 21:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

First you produce some evidence that you are not the cultural imperialist. Who are you talking about and what reference do you have that they are actually nuns? Goldfritha 01:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

lol! Prove I'm not a cultural imperialist, well that's gotta go in the diary - today I was called a cultural imperialist. How special. Instead I suggest again that the article should not be victimized by personal attacks and tunnel vision and be a bit more un-biased. I can wait though, if now soon enough it will happen regardless of edit wars and revisionist history and mythological ideals.Benjiboi 02:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

What you need is references. No amount of time will help without them. Goldfritha 04:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

In time truth will reveal itself.Benjiboi 00:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

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