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Revision as of 02:51, 16 May 2005

• Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Archive 1
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Prefixed Styles

There exists no consensus for the use of prefixed styles in Misplaced Pages. The use of "Her Majesty" in the initial introduction has been opposed by a majority of those participating in a recent survey as improper POV. NPOV trumps consensus, and the repeated uses of her formal style and others of the royal family are similarly improper POV and unencyclopedic. I am therefore disputing the neutrality of this article. Whig 08:18, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

So you're saying that the whole article is biased because we make reference to the undeniable fact that she is styled "Her Majesty"? Please stop politicking, Whig, jguk 08:42, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

It's not the perfectly fine reference to the style, it is the use/endorsement of the style that introduces POV. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 09:09, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

That's rather a bugger for an encyclopaedia if by using words and phrases that exist in real life it will be interpreted as endorsing them. Along these lines WP was irretrievably pro-Bush, but also irretrievably anti-Bush too. We condone the use of words like nigger, because we choose to have an article on the subject. By having a picci of Tony Blair on Politics of the United Kingdom, we endorse his government. Je pense que vous habitez un monde des nuages. Kind regards, jguk 09:41, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I want that {{NPOVNPOV}} tag gone ASAP. That tag is an abomination that shouldn't exist, but since it does, we should do our utmost to remove it. This does not benefit our readers, which is the primary concern. Jguk, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that Whig and Lulu have no business to question the neutrality of the article? I remind you that the question is not whether these titles introduce bias, but whether you agree that Whig and Lulu believe it does. There is a dispute. Whether you consider that valid is another matter.

That said, what is the point of fighting it out over this article? For goodness sake, can we take this to another page? There has to be central discussion on this somewhere—you'd know that better than I. Are we going to dispute the neutrality of every article in which a style currently appears? That doesn't seem productive. I suggest removing all tags while this discussion is still going on, and going to a centralized place. This is the wrong battlefield. JRM · Talk 09:59, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

(after two edit conflicts)

Whig is perfectly right to say that there's no standard yet, and that the current vote on the issue is heavily against any policy of using the prefix in the first mention of the name (though it looks as though it will accept mentioning – not using – it in the first paragraph).

On the other hand, I don't really see the problem here as regard NPoV. Is the claim that there are pretenders to the throne, so we shouldn't prejudge the issue? I can see that use of the prefix can be seen as bad style for an encyclopædia (and I'm inclined to agree), but that it's PoV is more difficult to argue.

On the third hand(!), the article does read skin-crawlingly like the gushings of an obsequious journalist hoping for a gong, and I'd second the NPoV template for that reason. As there seems to be an impasse, I'll post this to RfC, and try to get some other opinions.

I've just read jguk's comment; you're confusing mention and use. We don't call Martin Luther King a nigger — we have an article that talks about the word. A photograph of a politician can't by any stretch of the imagination be said to endorse his government. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:06, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The use of the style may be against policy, but that doesn't make the article NPOV. Maltaran 10:31, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed; the problem is a policy one, not an article one. Also, these actions are far too premature.

James F. (talk) 10:42, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Do we really need to this right now?

We've hardly survived two weeks of voting, so please, everybody, give it a couple of days of rest. Whig and Lulu, please do something else for a while, there's lots of articles that need to be improved, and we're doing all this to improve the articles.

Jguk, please read the poll again carefully. Disregard "first choice", "second choice" and stuff like that, just read people's comments. I'm sure you can see that there is no general agreement for having articles start with styles. And please remember that the use of styles was bitterly contested from the very start.

As I suggested elsewhere, I think that the misunderstanding we have is that you think that Misplaced Pages articles should be written in formal tone, i.e. that the introduction of the article is somehow a formal introduction of the person and should be written like the person is formally introduced. As you say, styles definitely exist in the real world and with good arguments I may be persuaded that using them is not POV per se. But the formality of the introduction I find to be completely unencyclopedic. Zocky 10:11, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm puzzled at the discussion over the use of Her Majesty at the start of the article, given that whenever there is (for example) a member of the privy council we are happy to use Rt Hon, or if someone hsa been knighted Sir prefixed in front of their name. Use of "Her Majesty" is just a continuation of this custom and practice and to omit it is clearly POV. --Vamp:Willow 14:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Errr... we're not talking just about Her Majesty in this article. Rt Hons and Sirs should go, too. Zocky 17:41, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Will anyone who agrees with the current (15:02, 2005 May 15 (UTC)) NPOV tag on the article please concisely state their views below? This will hopefully prevent it from continuously being removed and reinserted because everyone thinks they know exactly what is or isn't disputed. Revert warring over a dispute tag is incredibly lame. JRM · Talk 15:02, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

If someone thinks there is an NPOV problem and tags an article then it should not be removed by someone who disagrees with the tag, because if they are disagreeing there is indeed a dispute, and until the dispute gets resolved the article should stay. Only those who think the article needs the tag should later remove it when they think the POV has been sorted (and if someone else disagrees they can replace it themselves. The fact that someone wants the POV is enough reason to have it. I will replace it myself under such circumstances regardless of my own feeelings about the neutrality of the article. The only way to sort out the POV tag is to address the issues of the person who put it there, --SqueakBox 15:12, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. So it's not unreasonable to ask the person who put it there to state what issues they have, if necessary again to humor those who think the tag is spurious. I care not either way, I do care about people playing tug-of-war over it, regardless of who is "correct" in these matters. JRM · Talk 15:07, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

Here is why I placed the NPOV tag on the top of the article. The article started with words "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary)..." The problem is with "Her Majesty". When it is in the beginning of the text, it states that it is the most important thing or the most descriptive thing about her. But I think the most important thing is that she is a queen. If she wasn't a queen, she wouldn't be Her Majesty. Period. Also, Her Majesty is somewhat value-laden word to start an article. I hope I don't have to analyse that nuance any more, but it is a reason, why I chose NPOV tag and not a cleanup tag, for example. And there has been a poll, which shows that I don't represent a tiny number of contributors. The issue was discussed in the poll pages, so people probably didn't bother to write it here again. -Hapsiainen 15:24, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the claims about the use of the title. I personally don't like its use in this (or any) article, but I don't see that that's a question of PoV. Nevertheless I support the placing of the NPoV template, for the following reasons (which I've copied from a reply I made on JRM's Talk page):

The article is wholy laudatory in content, much of it written in language that wouldn't disgrace Hello! magazine. It's difficult to see what could be less NPoV really. It's not the use of the title, which gets other editors so incensed (I agree with them about usage, but not that it's PoV), it's the article as a whole. (I've just gone through the Talk page, and I notice that my complaint has not only been made by other editors, but even with a reference to Hello!.)

I hope that that's clear now. (I've just checked, and the other person to spon the Hello! style was Refdoc .) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:46, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll point you to my note in the section above re use in text. We prefix names with "Sir", "Rt Hon", "Lady" etc so no reason whatsoever to *not* use "Her Majesty" here; it is accurate and NPOV! Omitting it though *is* POV. --Vamp:Willow 15:37, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll repeat my points. First, the business of the title isn't my reason for saying that the article is NPoV. Secondly, I don't like the use of honorifics in any article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:56, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll accept that may not be the only cause for discussing NPOV issues, but whether *you* like or dislike something isn't a valid issue when WP use and practice is clear. --Vamp:Willow 16:44, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

We don't actually consistently prefix names in that manner. For example, Kim Jong Il is Dear Leader Kim Jong Il, but the article mentions his style later, not as part of the initial use of his name. --Delirium 16:49, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

We shouldn't be consistent. Styles matter more in some cultures than other. It's silly to treat those differences as if they didn't exist. - Nunh-huh 17:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

(1) Some people see having the style prefixes as POV, others see not having them as POV. Clearly it is not a good idea to have NPOV templates on every article which begins or might begin with a style - so can we just agree not to go there on that.

(2) Mel, could you be more specific about what you see as being the problem with what you call the Hello! style - what is it that you want changed and what do you suggest changing it to? jguk 16:51, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

It's not really a matter of individual sentences (though stuff like "She has a strong sense of religious duty and takes seriously her Coronation Oath." makes the neutral reader wonder how we're supposed to know that, and "Although she remains reserved in public, she has been seen laughing and smiling much more than in years past, and to the shock of many she has been seen to shed tears during emotional occasions such as the memorial service at St Paul's Cathedral for those killed in the 11 September terrorist attacks and in Normandy, France for the 60th anniversary of D-Day, where, for the first time, she addressed the Canadian troops" is a bit Sylvia Krin-ish). The point is, as I've said above, that the article gives little or no indication that anyone has ever been genuinely critical of the Queen, yet many editors will know that that's extremely misleading. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:03, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, the Queen certainly has a strong Christian faith and attends Church every Sunday - though we could just say that rather than "She has a strong sense of religious duty". I presume the point is relevant as she is Head of the Church of England. I don't think anyone disputes that she takes her Coronation Oath seriously, do they? I suppose the point here is that it shows that she will not abdicate, as well as showing her strong liking for the Commonwealth. Again, no doubt it could be better worded.

I must admit I don't see a need at all for the longer quotation you give - I'm not sure what it's trying to say other than that she is human, which I don't think anyone has any doubts about either.

On criticisms, we need to be careful though. She is bound to accept the advice of her prime ministers, and so she should not be faulted for so doing. Also, republican movements tend not to make many comments about her personally (and when they do, they tend to be complementary) - we should not allow a discussion of republican politics (or indeed any politics) to seep in. That does not mean that we should not, for example, mention that she attracted some criticism in the wake of Diana's death.

In summary, I'm sure there are improvements that can be made, and that we can act constructively in improving the article - we just need to put this HM argument to one side. Kind regards, jguk 17:26, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Is the claim that she has a strong religious faith because she goes to church every Sunday, or is there some other evidence? As to taking her oath seriously, I have no idea. Is she ever in a position where there's a genuine temptation to break it, or where breaking it could be done without repercussions? You see, in another article (say Fidel Castro or Oliver North) all this would be immediately (and rightly) jumped on as assumption and speculation.

I certainly agree that, in the context of the question of NPoV, the question of the title is something of a distraction (though I still hold fairly strong views about it). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:56, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

So do I. But we ought to impart the info of her style somewhere - maybe if it appears right at the very beginning of the article we could eliminate it from the picture captions?

There's plenty of evidence about her faith - maybe you don't listen to her Christmas Messages (the only time she speaks her own mind), but they alone are evidence enough for that, and for how seriously she takes her Coronation Oath. So it's not speculation, it's from her own mouth. Kind regards, jguk 18:25, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The NPOV tag belongs here if the use of styles (as opposed to their mention) is continued. A survey has already been taken and completed, and a majority participating expressed opposition to the prefixed use of style, in all cases. The selective use of styles was defeated by every other option, except for the alternative to disregard the survey. Styles are not used for many biographical entries, and there is general opposition to adding them in the cases where they are not presently prefixed.

I am in favor of including the style of formal address in an appropriate and NPOV way — by mentioning it in the body of the article, for instance, although this is actually a compromise position, as the style could as reasonably be included in the article on the office rather than the biographical entry on the present holder of that office. In any case, including the style in the biographical entry does not rise to a NPOV dispute.

Misplaced Pages should above all try not to impart value judgments in its articles. We should not say or imply that Queen Elizabeth II is majestic, and while the proponents of prefixed style have argued that using the style does not actually mean she is, the average reader is not going to appreciate such fine points of definition as that "Her Majesty is merely a style appertaining to the Queen, having no other particular meaning." Moreover, this definition is clearly unreasonable, because the style does have a meaning in common usage. I am not saying that Elizabeth is or is not majestic. She may be very majestic indeed! But it is not for the Misplaced Pages to say so directly, rather, it is established and unalterable policy that such value-laden statements be properly attributed or rephrased neutrally, viz., "Queen Elizabeth II is formally styled Her Majesty." This latter is a statement of formal usage, it clearly and unambiguously gives the style without asserting or seeming to assert that Elizabeth is majestic.

Such prefixed styles are no less inappropriate when used throughout the body of the article. Using "His Royal Highness" to refer to Prince Charles, or other members of the royal family, etc., should be omitted. Those styles can be provided in the relevant biographical entries but not here. Moreover, this article even internally uses styles selectively, referring to non-UK heads of state and royal families, etc., without prefixed styles, and this inconsistency is further demonstration of POV bias.

Finally, and joining with the comments of many others who have stated so above, the current article is full of gushing praise for Elizabeth's humanity, the fact that she has been known to shed tears for instance is completely unencyclopedic. No one questions that she is a human being, well, at least, I hope no one would be claiming otherwise. She presumably laughs, cries, eats, sleeps and performs other bodily functions much like the rest of us. This is not necessary or appropriate for inclusion. Whig 02:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Page protection

It's a mistake that I've made myself, so I'm not going to get too righteous about it, but would Neutrality not edit the article while it's protected? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:08, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I take it back and apologise; Neutrality was the victim of an edit conflict. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Of the United Kingdom?

HM Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of the United Kingdom, but she is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, and many other countries. Perhaps it would be more NPOV if the title of this article was "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms". I don't want to change it though without some more input, so what do you think?

That's already been suggested and rejected, I'm afraid. The discussion will be in one of the archives of this talk page. Proteus (Talk) 20:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing to stop it being discussed again. It's odd that such a fuss should be made about including the fact that she's known formally as "HM", yet the inaccurate title be accepted calmly. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Inaccurate? You mean she's not Queen of the United Kingdom? Proteus (Talk) 22:43, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Do we have to go through this again? Every[REDACTED] article about a monarch lists only the first of several titles that that monarch held. Charles I of England, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, &c. &c. &c. john k 23:09, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Why is Queen of the United Kingdom her first title? She became Queen of Canada or Australia, for instance, at the same time.--Ibagli 01:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

She became head of the whole Commonwealth at the same time, though she isn't Queen of every country in the Commonwealth. Jonathunder 01:50, 2005 May 16 (UTC)