Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:54, 16 June 2007

This page was nominated for deletion on 23 May 2007. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Wording

Under "purpose", David Gerard prefers the wording, "You might be wrong!" Two other editors prefer, "You might be wrong about whether or not you really have a consensus, and you will be held responsible for anything you do, regardless of the IRC discussion that preceded it." Anyone else have an opinion? --Elonka 20:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Under "purpose", one of the channel wizards worded it a given way, and zero channel wizards disputed this - David Gerard 20:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, please reread m:Instruction creep. If they don't understand already, they're not clueful enough to be admins. - David Gerard 20:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's way too harsh. Sorry for being asslike there. What I mean is, this is a description of what the channel is for, and that includes assuming good judgement already exists. If we have to detail good judgement, the reader shouldn't be on the channel. If we have to detail the penalties for cluelessness, the reader shouldn't be on the channel. If someone proves to be clueless on the channel, I kick them off - David Gerard 21:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I should of course note that this has yet to happen. Though could the log leaker please cool it? Thanks - David Gerard 15:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Incomprehensible

I consider myself reasonably computer literate, but the instructions at Sean Whitton's toolserver start off by asking "Register your nickname on freenode using the information here. You must register and link an alternate nickname and set an e-mail address.". The associated link to http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup advises that to register one needs to "/msg nickserv register <your-password>". I'm being dense here, but the page has no entry box to enter this into, nor gives any clue as to some other program to use... David Ruben 03:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What program do you use? There should be an input box at the bottom under the channel window (i.e. where you type to talk). John Reaves (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Computers are stupid, annoying and don't work. IRC is no exception. There's a reason IM gained popularity the way IRC never did - David Gerard 15:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

A lot of people make a lot of money from computers being stupid. :) (points at self and David too). Well anyway, I use ChatZilla as an IRC client, it works well with Firefox... there are lots of others, you can get some idea if you read the main IRC article. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 12:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Cloaks

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me - why are cloaks being required for access? /cs access #wikipedia-en-admins add user 5 should work just as well whether cloaked or not. Would it not make sense just to require users to be identified? Martinp23 20:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Cloaks are not required (unless they are for new users). I don't have one. Chick Bowen 02:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that they aren't required for physical access /cs invite #wikipedia-en-admins, but am wondering why they are being required on this page for no seemingly good reason... Martinp23 06:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

For my convenience mostly ;-) They're not mandatory, but they're still a good idea - David Gerard 15:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You have to have a cloak to get an invite exemption (so you don't have to self invite every time) is how it was explained to me way back when. I don't think we give invite exemptions any more, or at least I heard a rumor to that effect, something about too many being a drag on servers, or hard to administer, or something, I forget. Second, I at least intend not to give channel access unless you either have a cloak, or are online at the time I grant it and can satisfy me of your bonafides. (I use the "mail you a silly but unique phrase via your onwiki email and make you parrot it back to me" test, and I get to your onwiki email by going to your successful RfA)... I do think they're a good idea in and of themselves too. Hope that helps.++Lar: t/c 11:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Lizards, monkeys and picture

<catmacro license=gfdl>I APPROVE OF THIS EDIT</catmacro> - David Gerard 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not private

Users on this channel should be aware that unencrypted text sent over a web of servers via an insecure server/client structure is not private. Beyond this, they should have no expectation of privacy if they do wrong things, like, say, going on an insane blocking spree. I have removed the expectation of privacy. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Erm, I humbly object. There's an established tradition of communicating logs to the arbitration committee when necessary, but we simply cannot have a policy here that contradicts freenode policy. You should revert yourself. Mackensen (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree. We can certainly have a policy here that contradicts freenode policy. Freenode policy is binding only on signatories to that policy. "The Wikimedia Foundation," has not bound themselves to any such policy. Beyond that, as a Section 230 service provider, we are neither the publisher nor speaker of material on the site. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
    • The foundation doesn't have to. The foundation has nothing to do with this. When I use freenode's services I consent to their terms of service, just as I do with Misplaced Pages. If I violate those terms of services I can expect to be banned from either site. Mackensen (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, users who repost logs on[REDACTED] may face sanction at freenode, though I do not see a freenode policy prohibiting this. Users who repost logs on[REDACTED] might be banned from the channel because the channel has no relation to[REDACTED] at all and may have policies that are at odds with a 💕 that anyone can edit. They will not, however, face sanction at wikipedia, because[REDACTED] does not prohibit reposting IRC logs. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Let me see if I understand you. You are encouraging the creation of a policy whose intent is to undermine the policies of an unrelated site so that events which have no relation to Misplaced Pages may be published on Misplaced Pages–none of which has anything to do with the encyclopedia itself? Is this correct? Mackensen (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
          • If this has nothing to do with the encyclopedia, why do we have this page? Why was there a prior statement informing editors that some irc channel totally unrelated to[REDACTED] was "private?" Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
          • The existance of this page sure makes it seem like this chat room does have something to do with Misplaced Pages. Friday (talk) 17:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
            • Then by all means let's delete everything that has nothing to do with the encyclopedia? Be serious. I said that logs from an IRC channel have nothing to do with the encyclopedia. This is factual. They're not about to be added to the article space, are they? The encyclopedia != the project. They are separate concepts and should be treated as such. These and other pages describes to editors how to gain access to various IRC channels where Wikipedians congregate. This is a useful function. It is also not official in any way. I do not see a contradiction here. You'll have to tell me what 'official' would be; I haven't gotten an answer to that. I also haven't gotten an answer to my last question to Hipocrite, and your last statement seems to me to be a complete non sequitor. Mackensen (talk) 17:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Does this page need to be on Misplaced Pages?

I realize there's no making the channel go away, but why have a page referring to it? It has no official connection to Misplaced Pages, right? Why should this be mentioned on a project page any more than any other chat room should be mentioned? If it's unofficial, let's have it be unofficial. Friday (talk) 14:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Depends what one means by official. I know some WikiProjects have their own IRC channels and mention them on the project pages--are these official? Mackensen (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

What I'm getting at is: I was about to reach for the MFD button, and I thought it would be polite to raise the question here first. Make this a "Wikiproject:James's chat room buddies" or something, then. Make it clear that it's just another chatroom, out of the millions. People thinking this room has anything at all to do with Misplaced Pages causes us problems, with no offsetting advantage. If I want to promote my personal chatroom, Misplaced Pages is not the place for it. Friday (talk) 14:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Call it what you like. No one regards the channel as official, and if the administrator whose actions caused this had actually read this page he'd have known better. I'd rather have a page making it clear what the situation is–we didn't use to have one, and people were unclear where they stood. We all know how effective that was. Mackensen (talk) 17:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, we have a difference of opinion. Now at MFD for wider input. Friday (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo

It was alleged that the privacy of this travesty was done by fiat of Jimbo. Is this accurate or not? Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not aware of Jimbo ordering up any travesty by fiat. Please don't beg the question. Mackensen (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Idiocy

The above discussions and the MfD are simply idiocy. First, here is Freenode's policy on logs ,

If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs.

If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners before you start. If you're thinking of "anonymizing" your logs (removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often provide identifying information which is hard to filter.

If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save will most likely be your own.

Second James Forrester is the former Freenode group contact and the highest ranking chanop, and he has endorsed the "no publication of logs".

Third, UninvitedCompany offered specific advice on how the "community" could take over ownership of the #wikipedia freenode channels. In general (I can't find the exact statement but similar views are here and here), if the community adopted a policy and a process for selecting an official group contact, that would probably be recognized by Freenode. This would enable the community to set or change whatever policies it wanted to—anything from making them official[REDACTED] communications with the logs publicly archived to closing the channels entirely.

So if you want to change the world, or at least the IRC admins channel, then do it. Whinging about it or trying to delete its description page to make a point is a waste of everyone's time. Thatcher131 18:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not pointmaking- I actually do believe the page should go away. I have no interest in fixing irc. Remove mention of this from Misplaced Pages, and I no longer care about it. Yes, I expected the chatters would show up and say "Keep, I like it", but maybe we'll get input from others too. Friday (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Therefore, you did not care about IRC before this page came into existence? What about Misplaced Pages:IRC channels? Those aren't 'official' either. Mackensen (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This one is apparently invite only, owned by a single person, so I see it as a worse problem. Gotta start somewhere. Friday (talk) 18:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ahem, sorry to butt in, but, I "own" the whole lot of them.

James F. (talk) 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, here I was afraid you actually had a policy objection. We don't delete things out of personal pique. If the official/unofficial distinction is a problem then not starting with Misplaced Pages:IRC channels is disingenous. Mackensen (talk) 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Bad faith? Now that's just silly. Friday (talk) 18:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:IRC channels is very clear that it's totally and completly unofficial. It also doesn't use Misplaced Pages as a verification service for someones private IRC channel. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone were using a Misplaced Pages page to actively solicit an audience for some other chat room or website, I would want that deleted as well. Friday (talk) 18:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Chutzpah

Is there some way we could work this crucial word into the page? Either that or its close Australian relative Larrikin. This isn't an endorsement of either article, by the way. Both are in bad need of cleanup. --Tony Sidaway 22:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What a hoot this page is

I'm very surprised and amused to by chance stumble upon the discussions here. I think IRC is such a fascinating subject, although I never did understand why the permanently appealing Misplaced Pages foundation donated to IRC funds - but who knows the machinations of IRC and the admins who lurk there? - well quite a few actually. IRC logs are fun things to anonymously receive and they say much about the decisions which appear on[REDACTED] often as a "fait accompli". For an editor to have a stash of logs in his cupboard is money in his wiki-bank.

Regarding all this silly talk of secrecy and privacy if people make statements in public forums they should not be surprised when those forums become even more public, I for one would have no hesitation publishing IRC logs again on[REDACTED] if it suited my cause and I believed it to be for the greater good of wikipedia. That may be sooner rather than later too when I read some of the things posted here. - James you are being a trifle naive when you say "Ahem, sorry to butt in, but, I "own" the whole lot of them." (James F. (talk) 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)) let me promise you the first chance or chink in the armour they see they will boot you out regardless of your supposed ownership. . And as for David's "If someone proves to be clueless on the channel, I kick them off"(David Gerard 21:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC))- well that is certainly true, disagree with David there and you are out. What an amazing club IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins admins is. I often wonder why we have an Arbcom, and why they allow the machinations to take place on IRC-admins that they do - I expect there is a perfectly good reason - prhaps they are just poweless to stop it or perhaps they simply don't want to. Giano 22:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Well, it is a wiki, unlike IRC itself. The mystery of "why should Misplaced Pages have a page as a guide to a non-Misplaced Pages resource" was answered with "Because we want it," so I suppose that means that it's a wiki page, and there is no right version. Geogre 13:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I would actually have to agree -- I'm not sure if anything is gained by having a distinct subpage. Apparently DavidGerard started the page in May, I guess you'd have to ask him why. As long as we are here, it seems best if we confine the opinion-warring to a particular section or sections -- perhaps a "pros and cons" analysis is in order? – Luna Santin (talk) 14:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• Referring to your edit on the main article page: if this is a Misplaced Pages page, it should arguably obey the rules there. User:Friday had serious objections to the way this thing was written and the way its editors were behaving, and that resulted in what seems like a murder of crows mobbing him. Myself, I agree with him: I can't imagine our having a "How to behave at SomethingAwful" page that was edited solely by participants there, maintained by them, defended from all processes by them, and then have them say that the matter is settled. See, on Misplaced Pages, there are differences of opinion. One alternative would be "cite" tags over each statement.
• Yes, a page written by detractors would be possible, but that would just be a fork. Forks or edit battles seem to be the preference by the authors of this initial page. The whole thing is sad, so there ought to be some fun, rueful or not, in the process. Geogre 14:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • That's one problem, though. The only people who seem to care about the page at all, at least at this point in time, are (a) people in the channel, and (b) detractors. I haven't yet been aware of the page for 24 hours, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not up to speed on its history. Also, if you're quite done joking about centaurs and tainted semen, I would actually like an apology from you on that count. – Luna Santin (talk) 14:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
• I am quite sure you misunderstood the reference, then. The reference was to the false mentor. One of my complaints about the channel is that new administrators are led (whether urged or simply misunderstanding) to perform extremely controversial blocks. They then get their heads handed to them on AN/I and AN. They can even end up in arbitration, and all because they had "unanimous consent on IRC." To me, that is like Nessus. In one version of the myth (not on our page), Nessus is Hercules's old mentor. He is therefore the classic "false mentor." I regard that as a perfectly apt and perfectly non-personal observation of the function of the channel. New admins who go there are going to get some horrible advice and, even if they don't, incredibly misleading sense of validation for actions that are beyond the pale. In other words, it's just about the last place that a new admin should go, unless they want Nessus instead of Mentor. Geogre 15:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reformulated some bits of the page, provided a list of the current channel operators (anyone with level 10 or above can change the access list, to add or remove users) and emphasised some of the stuff expected of users (read: what not to do). I also removed the stuff about Kelly Martin and David Gerard, because that is not really relevant to a general channel information page. I suggest if you do want to make such statements, you use your own user space for it.

Oh, and the images. Bishonen, adding an image of an ape to that section about the "Channel lizards" is quite offensive and I consider it to be a personal attack on me. Please show more respect for others in future.

I also removed the flying lizard stuff too because that was just crap (not that that was added recently or anything - I've hated it for a long time). - Mark 15:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing both the image of the kindly helper monkeys (lizards? Qué?) and the bouncer gorilla image that I added is fine by me, as what I wanted was balance. Neither of the images told the whole truth. A personal attack on you? If you think the gorilla represented you, or all the ops in en-admins, or most of the ops in en-admins, let me assure you it didn't. I would have thought that went without saying, and surely my image caption didn't imply any generalization, either. The gentle helper monkeys in the other image don't represent all the ops, either! But for somebody such as myself, with personal experience of being kickbanned from the channel without reason, as well as generally disinvited by rudeness and attacks from a certain highly active minority of ops, the gorilla image is quite richly apt and evocative, though. (And the ArbCom, as channelled by Fred Bauder on WP:AN, agreed with my description here.) Well aware of how unwelcome I am, I never go to the channel now. Bishonen | talk 16:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC).

Indeed, how a picture of "the self-named flying helper monkeys" can become "you (sing.)" is through your own desires alone. The reference seems to have been to The Wizard of Oz (movie) and the flying monkeys of the Wicked Witch of the West. Either it was melodramatic satire on those who find them rude, ignorant, self-absorbed, and childish, or it was a flippant joke at the expense of those they interacted with, or it was simply self-absorbed, childish, and self-parody. In either case, jumping back now is like saying, "It's ok when I call him a n*gger, but don't you dare!" Such special pleading isn't very persuasive. Geogre 18:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Can we have a list of admins?

Can we find out whos in and who's out of this little club. Lists of members and a list of banned admins would tell us a lot about the nature of discussion on this IRC. Hypnosadist 14:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Whilst on IRC, type /msg chanserv access #wikipedia-en-admins list for a list of users who have access. I don't know about banned users. Majorly (talk) 14:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't work as you need to have access to see the access list. GDonato (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, just realised that... Majorly (talk) 14:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I can see the utility of a list of admins who have access to IRC—one could read it to see if those who claim adminship on IRC really are, or to see if an admin one needs to contact can be reached on Freenode. I can also see the utility of a list of admins who have been thrown out of the IRC channel—it will be interesting to see how the Evil Secret IRC Admin Kabal treat those who disagree with them. I don't, however, see the need for a list of all admins who have joined or have the capacity to join #wikipedia-en-admins, beyond creating a hit list—"When we talk about the evil Kabal, this is who we mean. Let's get them, lads!" We can do without it. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 15:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Any[REDACTED] editor who uses IRC can get a[REDACTED] IRC cloak to verify their onwiki identity when they are in IRC, if they so desire. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Do be careful what you say here, I have jut veen blocked for making a truthful edit on the page - these are dangerous times again! Giano 14:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning but i knew what i was getting myself into, thanks for caring though. Hypnosadist 15:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No probs, I'm a very caring sort of person. Giano 15:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Giano, you are a fantastic writer. I believe your contributions — and here I am not using "contributions" as a synonym for "edits" — have been a boon to the encyclopaedia. Your activities outside main space, however, could not be called a source of pride to a reasonable person. Your edits to this page, for example, are not intended to be helpful to readers who come here looking for information on the admin channel. They are, instead, an attempt to retaliate against the IRCers whom you believe have wronged you—I don't intend to delve into the question of whether or not they did—at some point in the past. You are not being helpful, you are being vengeful. This is not appropriate behaviour for a Misplaced Pages editor. There are plenty of people on Misplaced Pages who generate more heat than light, and I ask you not to act like one of them. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 15:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• No, not at all, I am attempting for this page to actually reflect the RCAadmins channel exactly as it is, what you want is a lovely whiter than white picture for "readers who come here looking for information on the admin channel". What they fine here at the moment is nothing short of propaganda written by the same channel. No other[REDACTED] page has a "free pass" of COI. I am very proud of most of mu edits I think the squabbling and content by IRCadmins on this page is a disgrace. That I have ben banned for providing a fuller picture says far more than I can on the subject. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Giano 15:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Giano, editing this holy page is like fighting a tsunami. You can't do it alone, can you? As long as mainspace editors don't have a place to hang around all day long the way non-mainspace-editors do, you will always be reverted. Even if they did have such a place for instant messaging, they would not be mainspace editors any more. Better leave it at their mercy, I think. Last year I made it clear on my user page that IRC is poison. It's the best I can do to express my opinion on the issue... as long as its discussion on the arbitrators' mailing list is bombed by the former arbitrators, that is. Read my comment on ALoan's talk page, too. --Ghirla 16:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

It's been explained to me in the past that you enjoy using offensive rhetoric to no good purpose but to spice up discussions. Well, fair enough; we all need to practise our writing. I've been accused of the same on the mailing list. Crucially, however, that was not on-wiki. Please refrain from it here. The next wonderful Featured Article will not appear while you're playing the child in project space. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 16:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Was it the person who nominated you for adminship who "explained to you" Giano's ways? Too bad that he did not explain to you that threats are not welcome here. --Ghirla 16:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The person who explained Giano's ways was, in fact, Bishonen (talk · contribs), who was hoping to explain to me why I should not allow myself to be bothered by Giano's frequently offensive rantings. Hence, if I read something by Giano that is clearly inappropriate, I should not say, "That's just inappropriate"; instead, I should say, "That's just Giano." Now it's your turn to answer questions, Ghirla: where have I made threats, precisely? fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 16:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"currently the page represents only one side in the dispute"

Someone wrote the above in an edit summary on this page. Is there actually a dispute here? If you feel that in the past, behaviour in this IRC channel has been wrong (which you might be quite right about) or that it currently is, then reformulate the page to state what is expected of the users of the channel, and what it can be used for. - Mark 15:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That would require constructive intent. It's far, far easier to simply throw around innuendo and accusations, tar every IRC-using administrator as Evil Incarnate, and edit war in an attempt to keep the results of your petulant tantrum publicly visible in project space. Admittedly, it takes two to edit war ... fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 16:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe we should remove from our admin space all links to non-Misplaced Pages channels, and I have argued about it at length. As clear from the above exchange between Giano and Mark, the content of this page (and the need for it) is disputed. It is currently written by folks from IRC and reflects their POV. Every dissenting voice is suppressed. It's just like reserving for Armenians the privilege of writing our article about Armenian Genocide, barring all Arab editors from the page Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or asking the neocons to write about the Iraq War. The result is rather predictable. --Ghirla 16:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

We need to look at the purpose of this page. Ghirlandajo seems to want it to be an encyclopaedia article about the channel. Giano wants it to be a List Of Reasons Giano Doesn't Like Misplaced Pages Administrators Because He Blames Us All For Carnildo And Other Fuck-Ups. It strikes me, however, that the page ought to be: This Is What The Channel Is For, This Is Why It Exists, And Here's How To Get To It. Why This Is DavidGerard's (Or Anyone Else's) Personal Fiefdom is not only incredibly silly, but also well beyond the ambit of the page. Removing a paragraph by Giano describing his hatred for those of us who use IRC instead of email or IM to conduct off-wiki discussion is not censorship or suppression of dissent; it's just keeping the page on-topic. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 16:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• What i want is a truthful honest and complete page. Now you can write it, or I will but one way of another it will be written. That I promise you Giano 17:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

What you want has nothing to do with the truth: it simply is the opportunity to say what you like about Wikipedians, on Misplaced Pages, with impunity. You are abusing a page that exists (appropriately or not; see Friday and Yours Truly below) for the information of those looking to join #wikipedia-en-admins in order to publicise your own dispute inappropriately. This is not an encyclopeadia article, it is a project-space information page; and "Why Giano Hates DavidGerard" is no more appropriate here than anywhere else in project space. Create a page in your own userspace if you must (be careful to avoid insults or personal attacks), or your own website, but don't think you can misuse a page like this while beaming beatifically and espousing no motive less pure than the God's Honest Truth. You are a pane of glass. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 18:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear - you do seem rather cross, perhaps you are over fuddled. I hate no-one so please stop these rather hysterical attacks on me and concentrate on the matter in hand. That page is going to be re-written whether you on IRC like it or not. Giano 19:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Before we go there, someone has to explain away the very obvious conflict of interest. I don't want any description of this room in the page, because it's inappropriate. Would we allow someone to use Misplaced Pages to drive traffic to their own personal website? Why should it be any different if it's someone's own personal chat room? Chat rooms are the armpit of the internet- Misplaced Pages is supposed to be better than that. You want chat rooms, AOL is over there. Friday (talk) 16:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

And here's a characteristic result of someone's dropping a link to a Misplaced Pages page on IRC: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins. Voting is useless in such circumstances. --Ghirla 17:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

MfD is not a vote. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 18:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think your characterisation of the channel (or of IRC channels in general) is a fair one. That aside, I agree that the channel should more accountable to the Wikimedia Foundation and to the Misplaced Pages community in general. If -en-admins is not for Misplaced Pages, then it should be. And if the channel exists for the aggrandisement of one man, then it shouldn't. The channel serves a useful purpose as a place for Misplaced Pages administrators and other such unsavoury personages to discuss things that should be private in private. There are good reasons that it exists, and it has the endorsement of Jimbo and Office. If you think the channel should be more accountable, well, good, I agree. If you think this page shouldn't exist until it does, I don't intend to argue with you about that; what I will say is that it certainly shouldn't be a vehicle for Giano to spew hatred about us because someone from IRC may or may not have mistreated him once, in the past. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 18:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Fuddlemark, I've never had a problem with you, but everything you say in justification of the channel is pretty easily debunked. There is a very old dispute over the existence of that sub-channel. I, for example, opposed its very creation, and quite a few other administrators did as well. I warned at the time that it was no more than a clubhouse for the He-Man Woman Hater's Club and would be nothing more than self-validation. Since its creation, it was generally ignorable, but then, suddenly, actions began to take place as a result of it. Conversations were shown to me, at least, that consisted of nothing but four or five people plotting how they were going to "kill" users they didn't like. Then there were (generally the same) users telling admins in good standing that they were not welcome, if they were going to defend anyone whom they had marked as an enemy. It was time, then, for me to actually offer a real critique, point by point, of why these things were inevitable conclusions and not occasional aberrations.

You can see User:Geogre/IRC considered for my critique. Note when it was done, the discussion on the talk page, and all the rest. Simply put, "chat" forums chat. None of the supposed needs of that particular channel are best served by it or legitimate needs. IRC is not only not the best solution, it is pretty much guaranteed to be a very, very bad solution to any given Misplaced Pages problem.

If people go there to chat merrily, I have no problem -- although I don't know why they need an "invitation only" channel for it. Anything more, and it needs to be on-Wiki, not off. Is there some problem with the BLP pages that can be addressed by a transient, untraceable, unaccountable, opaque process? Geogre 18:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Why can I still not get on the channel?

I am on the list, but still can't get in. Are the bouncers unable to recognise me? Sam Blacketer 15:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

What's your nick? Majorly (talk) 15:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

SamBlacketer. Sam Blacketer 16:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Have you invited yourself? /msg chanserv invite #wikipedia-en-admins? Majorly (talk) 16:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

There's too many males in the en-admins room. We're only accepting women for the rest of the night. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 16:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"There are" too many. There are too many users of the channel altogether, male, female, and intersexed. Geogre 18:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Way to harsh my mellow, dude. You'd make a good bouncer. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 18:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I bounce pretty well. As they say, "Geogres Wobble, but they Don't Fall Down. Geogre 18:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Note to newbies

Note that these people, by their own admission, are beating a dead horse. Their points have been heard and dealt with, to the extent that they will ever be dealt with. Further argument on the subject is pointless. --Ideogram 19:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

You may be right but I always question the utility of adding to the discussion just to say "stop the discussion!" Also your heading here could be taken as a bit insulting- it's possible it will only fan the flames. Friday (talk) 20:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've been on USENET long enough to have heard all the supposedly clever responses to someone stating that a discussion is pointless. I don't post because I believe I will stop the discussion; I am merely explaining to possible newbies that it is in fact pointless. And perhaps you should ask yourself what the utility of your "adding to the discussion" is, if you truly do not want to "fan the flames". --Ideogram 20:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

So your trying to stop discusion by saying discusion will have no effect interesting. Hypnosadist 20:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps you should read what I wrote again. --Ideogram 20:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"I am merely explaining to possible newbies that it is in fact pointless" Ok then to what does "it" refer to in the preceeding sentance. Hypnosadist 20:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Where did I say I am trying to stop discussion? --Ideogram 20:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

By saying discusion is pointless you are trying to stop discusion on the subject.Hypnosadist 20:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Don't try to tell me what I'm trying to do. --Ideogram 20:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Then what are you trying to do when you tell newbies talking on this subject is pointless? Hypnosadist 20:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't care to discuss that at this moment. --Ideogram 20:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Please tell me when you do care to answer it, i look forward to it. Hypnosadist 20:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

You sound to me like you're being accusatory, but I'm not at all sure why. I mainly thought "note to newbies" was a bad thing to say here, hence my comment. There's unfortunate amount of digging in of the heels (on both sides, mind you) here, and things that can be seen as insulting probably won't help. Friday (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I did not intend "newbies" to be insulting in any way, merely as a descriptive term for any readers that might not have encountered this very old dispute in one of its many forms before. --Ideogram 20:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected due to edit war

I have protected the page for 24 hours while everyone shakes the sand out of their vaginas and discusses things here. I realise this is probably futile, because no doubt anyone with admin rights will ignore it and edit the page anyway (because hey - we all know best), but we can live in hope. Neil ╦ 20:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Next one to edit it gets blocked. Neil ╦ 20:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a little extreme. Friday (talk) 20:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

What in the crap is going on here? Formatting changes are being reverted just because? Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, people, calm down. The world will not end from this page being edited or not edited. Friday (talk) 20:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have reverted the three edits made after the protection, back to Neil's version. I am not endorsing the version protected. Please, please stop edit warring. Edit warring on protected pages is a very stupid idea. Sean William @ 20:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• I see this nasty little page has been protected to save it from the truth Wiki-admins just cannot bear the scrutiny. How sad is that. I will see that page reflect the truth or be perma-banned so someone had better start writing fast. Giano 20:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Not helping. There's no actual emergency here, so let's not invent one. Friday (talk) 20:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps you could do it by suggesting your changes here. Neil ╦ 20:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Picaroon9288 has now been blocked for edit warring. I'm at the end of my tether. If admins can't respect "DISCUSS CHANGES ON THE TALK PAGE AND DON'T EDIT WAR JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN CIRCUMVENT PROTECTION", how can we be expected to set an example? I'll enforce this if it gets me desysopped. Neil ╦ 20:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

edit conflict I think its a matter of respect, Admins should not be pushing thier side of a content dispute using thier powers to edit a blocked page. And definately not when the page is about admins.Hypnosadist 20:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct. Neil ╦ 20:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Respect? Respect? Neil, please have some respect for the people you speak to. If you get a thrill out of writing "vaginas", I suggest you do it on your bathroom wall or something. Why, exactly, are you scribbling it here and yelling in caps and then expecting people to respect what you say? Bishonen | talk 20:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC).

Indeed, no one who writes wildly inflammatory things should expect to be respected. --Ideogram 20:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Bishonen, because writing it in a civil, title case format does not seem to work. I wish it did. And the sandy vaginas thing is a South Park reference. No real offence intended. I also have no real wish to be respected on Misplaced Pages, I'm just happy to plod along, and I never normally get involved in all this meta rubbish, but I've had enough. Neil ╦ 20:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• Is it possible for someone to block Ideogram for his own good for 48 hours, he always pops up on these occasions trolling, and I would hate for it all to bring on another of his attacks of ill health. Giano 20:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)