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Do we know for CERTAIN that Socrates existed? My understanding was that that issue was still up in the air. --Dante Alighieri 01:05 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Not at all. Perahps it would be if he was only known from Plato's dialogues, but he's discussed by the historian Xenophon and mocked by the comic Aristophanes, possibly among others.

Unless there was another Socrates, he's also mentioned by Thucydides. Adam Bishop 00:56, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Now this is ridiculous. One might as well question whether René Descartes existed. And then, how can we be certain you exist? --Eequor 02:45, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Not a critical point, but regarding Socrates' marriage, I guess there are some conflicting views. Namely, Xanthippe may or may not be the only wife.

The following page discusses the issue rather in detail. http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/socrates/wpages39toendpt1.html

See also: http://www.cnu.edu/academics/phil/carr/SocraBio.htm http://www.san.beck.org/Plato-Intro.html

Tomos 17:37 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)

Demos and democracy

What is the basis for the claim that Socrates supported the democracy?

Nonexistent, IMO. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 12:42, Oct 28, 2003 (UTC)

He fought for his country (rather, his polis) when it was under military attack, but his scorn for democracy would seem to have come out again and again. Is his admiration for the life of Sparta and Crete universally consdiered to be a fabrication? Again, "enemy" would seem rather a strong term for Critias' attitude toward him: that fellow's enemies tended to suffer something rather worse than being allowed to go home and keep their mouths shut.

That phrasing is from my keyboard, and I agonized over it. I don't think "estranged" covers it, nor "disfavour". Finally I plumped for "enemy", half in frustration, half in the hope that someone would come and moderate the statement with a more apposite phrasing, because I could not. The fact remains that he (Critias) did not remain part of Socrates' circle, and there was some degree of animus between them due to the (lack of) Socrates' role in the 30 tyrants fracas. -- CAoap

While we're up, is "satirical distortions" (of Aristophanes) a reasonable term? All satire tends to distort, after all; the reader, knowing this, is invited to think that these were more distorted than those of, say, Voltaire or Swift—a highly debatable view. Dandrake 01:45, Oct 28, 2003 (UTC)

Hope my recent edits addressed this problem. If not, feel free to adjust the phrasing. What this article lacks BTW is coverage of the whole 30 tyrants thing, and also Socrates as the prytanie (sp?) during the judicial murder of the generals of the Sicilian campaign. I've been meaning to get to it for a long time. I've got most of my sources pretty well organized, but this article is just so central, that I a a bit intimidated of making an extensive addition. I know I shouldn't, but the fact remains. -- CAoap

And perhaps someone can speak to the association b/t Plato's family and one of the Tyrants? +sj+

Apostrophes' Troublemaking

Looks as if we're in for an apostrophe dispute. I reverted a change that added back an s to Socrates' after another person had removed them all. It is traditional in many places to use the form Socrates' , so much so that the Chicago Manual of Style used to list Jesus, Moses, and Socrates as exceptions to the usual rule of adding 's to words and names ending in s. The latest edition goes further: generally, Greek names in s get only the apostrophe.

Perhaps this is a trans-Atlantic difference in usage. But before the international incidents get under way, will supporters of Socrates's please give some citations? Dandrake 17:39, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

No desire for a dispute here! Hi, Beowulf king. I didn't notice that just before my edit you had removed all the final possessive esses; good to know Chicago has a special category for Greek names. As a proofreader, I'm most glad to have learned another acceptable usage case. +sj+ 08:40, 2004 Mar 8 (UTC)

Actually, I got it wrong, from memory, though close enough for this purpose. What they really say: "Names of more than one syllable with an unaccented ending pronounced -eez"; and then there are Jesus' and Moses' cases as well. Dandrake 22:28, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the double-check. I suppose Moses and Jesus both have unaccended last syllables. So if a hispanic user named JeSUS starts posting, we can safely have this argument again? +sj+ 08:16, 2004 Mar 9 (UTC)

And more and more

However, the person whose unacceptable user name has been canceled (thanks, Ed) was right in the substance of the personal-attack comment that has been deleted per policy (thanks again): there are four Cardinal Virtues in Christian tradition, and I've never heard of the existence of a comparable earlier list with any number of entries. So I'm changing the text, subject to correction by anyone who have find a calssic Greek list of five. Dandrake 19:55, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

Socrates and Hemlock

The article on Hemlock contains the following statement:

The Greek philosopher Socrates supposedly drank one of above toxic hemlocks to fulfil his execution sentence. However, this story is now known to be a myth, although Socrates is commonly linked to this form of suicide.

Does anyone have any modern references which can verify or disprove this statement that the story is a myth? WormRunner | Talk 03:48, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See Cicuta virosa. --Eequor 03:25, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

But this doesn't have to do with Socrates. -SocratesJedi | Talk 07:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

At least one ancient source that is good evidence that he did is Plato's Phaedo. Also, this was common practise for someone sentenced to death in 5th cen. Athens.

His claims

It does Socrates an injustice to say that he claimed that it is better to suffer an injustice than to commit one; he argued it clearly and (some would say) convincingly. But may we have a statement of why it merely seems at first glance to be paradoxical when he claims to be wiser than others on the basis of his understanding that he knows nothing? It's a clever paradox, in fact. Dandrake 08:25, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

It isn't really a paradox. The idea that one's knowledge includes the knowledge that one lacks knowledge does not conflict with a claim that one possesses knowledge; by such a statement, one demonstrates that one possesses knowledge beyond that of a person who lacks the knowledge that they lack knowledge. --Eequor 12:56, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Greek form of name

I've put in the Greek form of his name with a romanisation. Does anyone have any opinions on whenther this is a Good Thing? If it is, I might do the same to other entries. Greek form checked in LSJ. m.e. 12:40, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

joints

There are a couple of places where socrates mentions the problem of the joints. It seems linked to the problem of definition and categories. I've let this act as a core for which to form associations. Have you thought about it? I have some answers but would like to hear ideas unaffected by mine. Thanks. WblakesxWblakesx 05:36, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Beliefs Section

The whole section on Philosophical Beliefs came straight from my senior research paper. Here is the works cited page from that report:

Chin, Beverly, et. al., eds. Glencoe World Literature. New York: Glencoe McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc., 2000.

Gross, Ronald. “Socrates: Mentor for humanists.” Free Inquiry Spring 2003: p. 57. Expanded Academic ASAP. The Gale Group. Newark High School Library, Newark, DE. 1 Dec 2004. <http://web5.infotrac.galegroup.com/itw/ses>.

“Socrates.” Discovering Biography. Online Edition 2003. Student Resource Center. The Gale Group. Newark High Library, Newark, DE. December 1, 2004. <http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/SRC>.

Solomon, Robert C., and Kathleen M. Higgins. A Short History of Philosophy. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.

“The Religion of Socrates.” Ancient Philosophy Spring 1998: p. 174-177. SIRS Renaissance. SIRS Mandarin, Inc. Newark High School Library, Newark, DE. 1 Dec 2004. <http://sks.sirs.com>.

Thomas, Henry. Understanding the Great Philosophers. Gorden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1962.

Should it really be states that Socrates is ugly ? Isn't that more for tabloids and magazines and not encyclopedias.

Garlic dildo?

"It is not known whether or not Socrates had a fully-functional phallos, but it's been proven by historians that he used one carved out of garlic, instead." Um, WTF?

This is a) enough of a shocking claim to warrant at least a citation, and preferably more explanation, and b) a bit of a non-sequitur.

Delorted! --FOo 05:52, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Damn, I was hoping it would turn out to be true. --teucer

Beleifs revisited

I have some MAJOR issues with the "philosophical beleifs" section of this article. to being with, it in no way mentions that it is difficult to ascertain what Socrates beleived as opposed to Plato, where we get most of our accounts of Socrates. More importantly, it states as fact what are actually non-neutral stands on hotly debated issues of platonic/socratic philosophy. imo they miss the depth of the Platonic drama. It is very debatable as to whether or not Socrates thought philosophers shold actually rule as kings- notice his constant mention of how he CANNOT go to politics, as his deamon always tells him it is wrong; notice the irony of a rhetorical/dramatic masterpeice going on and on about how art is bad because the author doesn't using his own voice when Plato is having Socrates narate the entire Republic. and etc.

It seems to me, if there is going to be a philosophical beleifs of Socrates section, it should make clear the difficulty of ascertaining his thoughts and should use PRIMARY sources to provide some of socrates' beleifs. There is much that i personally beleive is of greater significance and should go in this section, eg the philosophic path as laid out in the symposium and the phaedrus, the search for the GOOD (not necessarily as a "Form"), etc.

so lets all talk about before i single handedly enforce my opinions on the article. we should be able to come to some concensus about what should be there and what should not. but what is there now is only one possible interpretation of his thought, cited only through secondary sources with their own interpretations. we should make clear the variety of possible interpretation and try to use primary source material as much as possible, as this is an encyclopedia.Heah 18:11, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Ok nobody said anything so i've gone ahead and done a preliminary edit of the section, trying to be fair and impartial. Citations will be forthcoming where needed and/or requested; it all comes from the text. at the moment i've only noted the dialogue from which something was taken and not the Stephanus pages.Heah 18:56, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

vandals

somebody just vandalized a lot of stuff as i was in the middle of editing, so i couldn't just revert. i think i cleaned it all up but everyone should double check . . . Heah 19:38, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

method

does anyone know why "socratic method" was merged with this page? it really should have its own entry, as it isn't about socrates, but a teaching style we have named after him.Heah 20:00, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

since there haven't been any objections and ALoan consented, I've merged "socratic method" back to Socratic method. Please help with the reorganization and clarification of that page. Heah 21:26, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Birthdate and Deathdate

The article has been edited to include his birthday as June 7th, 470 BC, but has not yet been edited in regards to his death: May 7th, 399 BC.

http://www.born-today.com/Today/06-04.htm
http://quotes.tubegator.com/socrates.php
http://members.aol.com/kitecd/c_hmay.htm

I'll add the month and day, and if someone else feels it necessary to update more than that, I would appreciate it.