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--Kumioko 21:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

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Archives

Index – May 2002 to March 2003 – March 2003 to November 2004 – January 2005 to October 2005 – October 2005 to August 2006

yes]

ENOUGH WITH THE CHANGING!

Now that a source is up that shows Russia are in the war against terrorism, it is no right to move it. See? There is a source! Now stop with the changing!

Name Change

The House Armed Services Committee is banishing the global war on terror from the 2008 defense budget. Might be worth adding, let me know if you would like me to edit the article. --Carl Von Clausewitz 11:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Terrorist Casualties?

Usually in an article on a war you have casualites listed by side. I see the US and other allied side casualties and the (supposedly) innocent bystander casualties. Where is the Terrorist and sympathizer body count? How many of the innocent bystander casualties was caused by the Terrorists and how many by the US and allies? Seems a fair thing to ask. Otherwise its pretty meaningless to tally the losses, keeping score on one side and not the other. Asiaticus 03:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

But this isn't a traditional war - not in any sense. How do you tell who's a terrorist, who's a sympathizer, and who's innocent when no one's wearing any uniforms? It's not like Al Qaeda keeps tallies with the International Red Cross. --Brasswatchman 15:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you know them by their actions. Caught or killed in arms or in aid of doing terrorist acts that seems pretty clear. They must have some estimates at least. Asiaticus 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

There are no estimates for that, and if you want to, blame the US military because they "don't do body counts" of enemies killed (because in Vietnam they realized they couldn't easily distinguish the number of civilians killed from the number of enemy). That means the only body counts, besides those of US and coalition allies killed, are just counts of the number of other dead because outside sources that weren't involved in a battle have no way of knowing who exactly was a "terrorist". Presumably the counts include everyone from civilians- vast majority of dead- to insurgent fighters. 172.147.227.44 15:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Why are the Combatants listed as they are?

The US and Allied anti terrorist coallition is listed as ones conducting Operations while the Islamist Jihadi/Terrorist side are ones being operated on, as if they were just standing around idle, doing nothing, getting beat up on? Last I saw they were operating pretty well themselves. How about calling them by their names: Anti Terrorist Coallition and Islamist Jihadi (unless Osama & Co. has a prefered name)Asiaticus 04:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source on what Al Qaeda has been up to in the last few years, you should be talking to the FBI, not Misplaced Pages. --Brasswatchman 15:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats not an answer to my question.Asiaticus 01:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your question is that 1. They arent all Jihadist groups, 2. They arent all necessarilly working together, 3. They are being targetted in operations. This doesnt mean they are passively sitting by, the War on Terrorism is a campaign against these groups, and the groups being attacked will obviously fight back in the ways they do. Its the only label that can accurately represent whats going on. ~Rangeley (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That isn't necessarily true, I think a lot of people would argue that the Ba'athist insurgency and the Al-sadr's army in Iraq have almost nothing to do with the originally stated goals of the war on terrorism (and are thus not combatants in it but rather a separate conflict from the war on terror). It's only an opinion that Iraq is part of GWOT, an opinion that was recently removed from the Iraq War article itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.58.28.162 (talk) 06:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

As stated on this article, the "War on Terror" is a specificly defined campaign being waged by the USA and allies. This has been discussed, and things stating the Iraq War to be a part of the campaign have not been removed via discussion. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The user that removed them claim he did so in accordance with a "poll", I have no idea where or what this poll was but it was your user name that added it back. 68.58.28.162

Yes, I saw his edit summary. For one thing, polls are non binding, for another, the last poll was held in June 2006 and 24-4 agreed with the thesis that the United States can define what is and is not a part of a campaign it wages. While this in itself was not binding, the discussion eventually yielded a consensus. The "WoT" is not a war, its not a conflict, its a military campaign - ie a super operation. Within this super operation are other smaller operations, such as Operation Enduring Freedom, Operation Iraqi Freedom. People do occasionally remove it from the infobox, and it is either reverted or they begin a discussion which goes on for a while before its finally decided to re-add it. Its probably the least interesting yet most common issue one has to deal with when working on these articles. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rangeley generally on this. Many of the same people who want to make it clear that the Bush Admin. declared and defined the WOT (true), perhaps too broadly and carelessly (POV) as Rumsfeld recently acknowledged, and then expanded it to include the war in Iraq (they did), are the same people who also want to say the Iraq war is not part of the WOT (POV and more important - logically inconsistent with the prior point as part of factual encyclopedia article). I think the most accurate and neutral thing to do in this article and similar ones is to make it clear that the terminology and the expansion to include Iraq were the choice of the Bush administation, for better or worse. See for example, the edit I made earlier today to the "Killed in..." section and heading.-JLSWiki 03:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of anywhere that lists even estimates on terrorist casualties. While it's an interesting point, there is no way to correct it so I don't think it can be expected to be put in there. Al-qaeda rarely releases tapes concerning their own casualties (apparently they agree with retired General Tommy Franks about body counts?) I'd be interested to here more on this but I don't think the US military does terrorist body counts and Al-qaeda statements are rare. The best I was able to find was a Netscape article claiming 4,000 al-qaeda dead from the Iraq campaign. Whoblitzell

Well he isnt a reliable source. 4,000 is ridiculously low. I recall seeing a figure stating it to have been 67,000 jailed/killed in mid 2006. Dont have the source on me though. Its always going to be estimates, and they are out there if you look hard enough. ~Rangeley (talk) 17:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree he isn't a reliable source but I have never seen an Al-qaeda membership estimate over 18,000. The figure of 67,000 probably including Al-qaeda as well as other factions. Whatever their casualty figure is, as far as I'm concerned, it isn't high enough. Whoblitzell 00:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the terrorist casualties article reference. It seems self defeating not to have an terrorist casualty count when one is being run on the friendly side that is being used against them. No doubt part of the reason this conflict is not doing well politically. Asiaticus 08:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is France and Germany not on this list? It is insulting that countries which have contributed alot of resources have not been included on this combatants list. This is about the war on terror.. its NOT just about iraq. This list should be deleted.. its clearly impossible to create a fair and acceptable list to all.

9/11 as cause needs POV check, citation

While this is taken for granted as a fact in America, a lot of the world doesn't feel that the 'war on terror' began with 9/11 but rather that it began with the US invasion of Afghanistan and/or prior covert activities in the region. This view has been notably expressed by Noam Chomsky in many of his writings. The view that 9/11 was caused by US foreign policy gone awry is also presented in Michael Moore's movie and numerous others. I think something a little more objective than the 9/11 attacks being listed alone without a citation can be forged out. I also believe OBL's issue of a declaration of jihad might also be considered the start of the war or perhaps the first WTC attacks. In short, to simply list 9/11 because it is the most common American POV, well thats not right.

"It all started on 9/11" is, more or less, an American perspective of GWOT, but not a global opinion. It seems sort of POVish to me and I think an alternate cause should be listed, however it seems to be routinely removed. I think we need a non-government citation for something like this.

Please note that this article does state that this campaign began on October 7th, 2001. Casus Belli is the justification put forward for a military campaign, or the stated cause. It was definately the stated cause for beginning this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I see, that was a vocabulary problem on my part -- disregard previous message. Thanks

I've been having a problem thinking about the infobox casus belli thing for a while. It seemed POV in some way because it was only providing the justification for one side in the conflict, right? That's unusual. We get America's reason but we don't get the three main reasons cited by UBL in his jihad message in the late 90s that we can assume inspired the 9/11 attacks, as well as much of the "terror" that followed (those being: US military presence in middle east; existence and policies of State of Israel and US-Israeli alliance; economic and cultural hegemony of the US and perceived influence over muslims worldwide). I added them in once and they were deleted. But then I realized what the oddity is. This article effectively presents one half of a war. As the intro states, the war on terror is defined to be whatever the US military says it is. This article is not POV (since late last year) because the intro says exactly what it's about. However it's still an oddity. I wonder what the fate of this infobox and this article (and this war, or at least its name) will be over the next five years. I can't imagine the war being defined in Misplaced Pages quite this way with a little more time passed.

In fact, most Americans (echoing the Bush Administration and NATO) feel that Al Qaeda "declared war" on the US with the 9/11 attacks. So according to that view, the US should have JOINED an existent war, rather than launching it. But of course Bush wanted to pre-empt their war rather than joining it, so he declared his own, against them. Even though they had supposedly already started the war (arguably in the previous decade, in fact, and in continuation from previous decades before that). So in always going with Bush's own definition of his own war, and thus leaving out the causes that inspire the "other side" in it (both of these aspects could constitute pro-American government POV), in effect this article also presents the war as if the US concocted it. So it's not POV for either side. It's just weird. Illustrates how both sides need each other. If they were involved in the same war, they wouldn't, one would want to win, but neither of them actually wants to win their wars, because they are each THEIR wars/jihads, chosen and defined by their own side and even given separate wiki pages.

But I can't think of anything else that could be done with it really, short of renaming it global war on terrorism and restricting it very narrowly to the official US military campaign, and creating another article about the concept of war on terrorism. 172.147.227.44 15:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. It would certainly reduce a lot of the philosophical debates if the article was just about the "official US military campaign". --82.133.79.7 10:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Al-Qaeda flag

On the infobox, Iraqi insurgency is listed next to the Al-Qaeda flag. However, Al-Qaeda (and other foreign combatants) form only a small minority (~1200 men) among the Sunni insurgents. Furthermore, even among the Sunni population Al-Qaeda is disliked. I will remove the flag as misleading since it does not represent the true Iraqi insurgency.--JyriL 20:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Al qaeda in Iraq is a notable contingent of belligerent opposing the U.S. The flag should remain. --Tbeatty 20:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It is only one of many factions. Even more important, many of Sunni insurgency does not support Al-Qaeda. If fact, there are reports that Iraqi Sunnis and foreign fighters are fighting each other! Why use only one flag to represent all? It is very misleading and POV.--JyriL 21:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Media influences

The "media influences" section, which was introduced in these edits, seems to assign a lot of significance to the views of one writer. Gazpacho 06:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Flags

Flags – as there is a link to ‘War on Terrorism: Allies’ the flags should be limited, in my opinion, to countries with armed forces involved combat operations against ‘terrorists’ (such as USA, UK, Canada, Netherlands) and or nations where terrorism is a significant part of their security situation (such as Pakistan, Afghanistan). If nations with just small contributions to operations like ISAF are included, the list would be too long and would negate the need for a ‘War on Terrorism: Allies’ link. Chwyatt 11:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Combatants

Hey, I really think that the combatants list in this page is biased and inconsistent. I think the list should be consistent with the combantants lists in the pages involving theatre of operation with nations organized by troop contribution and diplomatic support while the rest would be organized alphabetically, but Al Qaeda on top.23prootie 02:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree only those listed in the article should be included, but it should be in alphabetical order. --NuclearZer0 17:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just seen this page for the first time, and I also wondered about the order. Is it ordered by size of the respective countries' armed forces involved, or chronologically in the order in which they entered the "war", or some other order? It needs to have some rational basis, and for that basis to be stated at the head of the list. -- JackofOz 01:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The list is not complete, Where is France and Germany? and other European countries that are fighting in Afghanistan. The War on Terror is not just about Iraq... (This shows exactly the problem with the term "War on Terror"

Rename with "Global"

Te official name is "Global War on Terrorism." ~ UBeR 02:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Its not the most common name, however. ~Rangeley (talk) 02:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It is actually. Should we change the George W. Bush article name to Bush, because that's what most people use to refer to the current U.S. President? No. Lets please start thinking with rationality. ~ UBeR 19:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names). It actually uses an example involving Bush, "George W. Bush (not George Walker Bush.)" And it states "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Thats why we dont go with "Bush," but dont go with "Walker Bush" either. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I know Misplaced Pages's policies. Global War on Terrorism is not only the official, proper, and more formal name, it also the more used. Again, rationality, please. ~ UBeR 21:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Rationality...

Google hits: War on terrorism: 1,320,000 Global war on terrorism: 1,040,000

War on terror: 16,500,000 Global war on terror: 1,050,000

Yahoo hits: War on terrorism:9,900,000 Global war on terrorism:876,000

War on terror:23,100,000 Global war on terror:1,360,000

I think that it largely apparent which is the more used term... Sfacets 05:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:GOOGLE. Funny, nonetheless. Whatever the case, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is no place to endorse ignorance. Now, of course, the term with the lesser amount of words will have more Web sites. Try it yourself. Look up "Bush", and then look up "George Bush". Quite simply, your point is moot. Mine is not. ~ UBeR 17:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course the search results are of indicative value only, but it is a step up on your attempt at justifying the name change. (also note the difference between searching for a single word (Bush) vs three words (war on terrorism).Sfacets 18:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it applies to nearly everything. To digress, try looking up "Operation Enduring Freedom" versus "Enduring Freedom." Case in point. ~ UBeR 19:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

"Global war on terror" is a specific phrase used specifically by the American administration. It's an American thing, not a worldwide thing. Compare the use of the phrases in the British government:
In addition, "terror" makes even less sense than "terrorism" as something to declare a war on. Using the word Terrorism clearly makes more sense and fits better with the title of the article. --Mr. Billion 18:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about "terror"? ~ UBeR 19:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what you changed the article to say. --Mr. Billion 05:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

And it's something I personally changed back. If you couldn't have noticed, it was the result of a revert of a previous, where it was changed. ~ UBeR 06:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This conversation is quite ludicrious Glen 22:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

As is the proposition that started it. --Mr. Billion 05:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm so sorry for suggesting that the article be named after its proper name. ~ UBeR 06:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It's okay. Just don't do it again. --Mr. Billion 06:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

India

Does anyone here realize how close India and Pakistan came to nuking each other in 2002? They called it the War on Terror (or at least India did), so I put in a section on the events in new Delhi, Kashmir and Gujarat. Ericl 03:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

This isnt an article for everything ever called a war on terror, its for the specific us led campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rangeley, the Gujarat Riots had nothing to do with the War on Terrorism, they were entirely linked to local tensions in India, therefore, it should not be included in the War on Terrorism article, it makes no real sense to do so ThaGrind 13:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Common Sense

The chapter titled Common Sense is an opinion. This should be deleted. Does anyone agree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.167.107.118 (talk) 13:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Ba'athist Iraq as terrorist organisation

Why is Ba'athist Iraq included as "Enemy" in war on terror? I mean, by now it is quite clear that Saddam did not support Al-Qaeda, and that he didn't have no WMD, isn't it? --89.172.41.218 16:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well the Ba'ath loyalists are fighting america in the war on terror. So they are at that side. The Honorable Kermanshahi 11:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"Enemies" - NPOV?

And, another one. Isn't the list in the infobox titled "Enemies" a bit POV? I mean, from Taliban fighter point of view, Taliban and not quite "enemies", are they? We all agree that Nazis were bad guys in WWII, but we still don't label them as "Enemies" in WWII infobox... --89.172.41.218 16:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

How about "bad guys"? --Bobak 00:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't the americans the bad guys, you know, with hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by them in the last few years? With respect, Ko Soi IX 06:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

To accuse Americans of being the 'bad guys' for taking the lives of some (read some as opposed to your inflated hundreds of thousands) in order to save the lives of millions who would be killed by terrorists in the long run is ludicrous. On another note, there is little need to play a semantics game to avoid hurting someone's feelings by calling them an enemy. To refer to the opposing force as the enemy is common military practice, like it or not.

"Somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636" - Article 24.205.34.217 03:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Osama Bin Laden is reading Misplaced Pages so we can call them enemies.Spartytime 13:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

That's like saying "Romans aren't reading wiki, so we can call them "Enemies" in the article about the Barbarian attack on Rome. 24.205.34.217 03:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop! this is not A FORUM!!! ÄND ENEMIES IS POV (POV OF THE COMBATANT OF THAT ¨enemies¨)

'Terrorists' are certainly not a tangible foe are they? I mean you Yanks seemed perfectly happy to supply the IRA. How many did they kill in the long term? It's a bit of a joke that anyone can possibly think that they can declare a "war" on terror, are you boys jetting off to Indonesia yet? Or perhaps Sri Lanka; go bash some Tamil Tigers! Henners91

Template:War on Terrorism: include Iraq?

Reading over this page I see this issue has been discussed ad nauseum, but I'd like to get a conversation going over whether {{War on Terrorism}} needs to include events in Iraq. I feel that leaving our Iraq would leave an incomplete picture. However, unlike this article, which is quite nuanced about Iraq, the template needs to be a lot simpler, so I'm not sure if it would be excessively POV if it was just inserted in there.

For comparison, {{World War II}} includes such conflicts as the French-Thai War and the Ecuadorian-Peruvian War. The former is only slightly relevant to WWII at large (fall of France leading to weak position in Indochina), while the latter seems completely unrelated except for the date.

My personal opinion is that regardless of whether the 2003 invasion of Iraq can be reasonably included as a War on Terrorism campaign, the current situation in Iraq, as a training ground for jihadist groups, makes it the likely central focus of any present and future US counterterrorism anyways.

See Template talk:War on Terrorism#Inclusion criteria Kelvinc 03:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a part of the campaign, which this article is about. The campaign is a government program, basically, and we have already provided documentation showing that it is a designated part. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Map caption

User:Sfacets decided to remove the word 'Islamist' from the caption showing the countries of the world that had been hit by international terrorism. Without the word Islamist it becomes meaningless - why not then include non-Islamist terrorist incidents in Colombia or Sri Lanka for example. I believe the term 'Islamist' is widely understood and accepted here, so can I have a concensus here that the word stays? Thanks Kransky 10:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides the fact that the term is highly controversial (See Islamism, how can we ascertain that the countries shown were solely the targets of "Islamist" groups? Perhaps we could name here the countries affected by this category of terrorism here and compare them to the map? Sfacets 20:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ireland involved in this war?

Ok once again Ireland has been added into the list of Combatants. I attempted to remove this error, when, again it was put back with the justification being that "They participate in ISAF", well I don't think the contributor quite gets the significance of Ireland being labelled as a participant in a war. The Republic of Ireland is a Neutral country it has not been involved in any war since it's independence, it has been involved in many UN peacekeeping missions, but not in wars.

Now as to the claim that Ireland is participating in the International Security Assistance Force, well the only source given for this is a 2002 article which claims that 7(!?!) Irish Defence Forces members would be going to Afghanistan as staff in the "information operations section" of ISAF HQ, and as liaisons. In other words, they are not by any means involved in any combat (as a "list of Combatants" would imply), So since when did 7 desk jobs constitute fighting in a war? I will state my reason for removing Ireland from this list again, Ireland is (or was) involved with the ISAF in an extremely minor way, that Does Not equate to saying that Ireland is engaged in a war! (i.e. the War on Terrorism).

To give an example, Irish troops were in the United Nations Protection Force in the Balkans, but the Republic of Ireland was not involved in the Yugoslav wars. It's quite a big difference from going on a Peacekeeping mission (especially one where they're not even armed...) and actively engaging in fighting a war. Likewise Ireland was in UNIFIL, but that does not make Ireland a Belligerent Party in the Lebanese Civil War or the 1982 Lebanon War, etc. Ireland's involvement with the ISAF is already listed in the ISAF article, and that is where it should be left. For these reasons I’ll be removing them again unless somehow, someone comes up with some very convincing reason why they shouldn't be removed. --Hibernian 03:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well said Hibernian. Ireland is not a combatant (engaged in combat operations). Even if Ireland is contributing to ISAF, it is not involved in combat operations as part of ISAF 3 in southern and eastern Afghanistan like the Canadians, Brits, Dutch and Americans are (Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2006). And this is no disrespect to the good men and women of the Irish Defence Forces in Afghanistan (or indeed personnel from Luxembourg or Iceland). But list of combatants needs to be kept under control or it becomes meaningless. Chwyatt 10:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Luxembourg? Iceland? The list of ‘combatants’ is just silly.

Luxembourg makes it on a list of ‘combatants’ (now removed) because it has 10 peacekeepers in a relatively safe part of Afghanistan? This is just silly.

I think the list of combatants should be limited to nations that are currently involved in significant numbers in active combat operations (like the US, Canadians, Brits, Dutch etc). Or nations with significant domestic terrorism problems involving major domestic military forces (like India or the Philippines). Or were involved in past operations in significant numbers (like Germany in 2002).

Maybe larger ISAF contributors, but for goodness sake, not a dozen men and a jeep!

Chwyatt 10:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, also remember this is a WAR and by putting someone on the "combatants" side you obviously say they are not neutral. The war on terror is not a peacekeeping operation. Peacekeepers are usually considered neutral, even though obviously Iceland or Luxembourg or wherever is not going to be an Al Qaeda sympathizer, there is no reason necessarily to consider them a US/UK sympathizer either. Just because many nations may be supporting the official government of Afghanistan with a bit of manpower, does not mean they are engaged in this international "war". In fact to list them like this promotes a misconception that all Westerners=Americans, and is exactly what gets peacekeeping/aid workers of these countries who are only trying to do humanitarian work, targeted by terrorists there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.163.181.65 (talk • contribs)

Well, there are two questions. One is, are they combattants? Obviously yes, they contributed forces, they are a combattant. The more important question is, do we have to put every combattant into the infobox? The answer to that is no. Having every combattant is a bit much, instead the larger contributors and main nations should be put in the infobox, while the rest are linked to as "others." ~Rangeley (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Forces = combatants? I don’t think that automatically applies, especially if some forces are sent to Afghanistan to undertake reconstruction work, and not to seek out and combat Taliban/al-Qaeda. Some forces have been sent to Afghanistan with a remit to avoid active combat operations, only to defend themselves. And if they are not in a ‘hot’ area, then they don’t engage in combat. Military forces can do peaceful tasks so are not combatants, even if they are capable of combat. I think the task the unit does defines if it is a combatant, not the unit itself. I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. Chwyatt 13:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Its one thing if the troops are seperate from ISAF, but in this case all nations listed are a part of ISAF. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Why was Russia removed from the list of Combatants?

Because some people hold grudges against Russia, and they are not fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, they are still a part of The Global War on Terror. I am so tired of people misunderstanding. People are removing Russia from there all the time, mostly because they think Putin is hiding Iraq's weapons. Wake up, people! Those are PRIVATE weapon dealers, and they exist everywhere. in the US too. Russia are fighting actively against terrorists in Chechnya, now you might disagree, but they are concidered terrorist due to their bombings and taking hostages(in schools and theaters and hospitals), and what Russia is doing in there is allowed, no matter how bad it is. The law says that Russia can do extreme measures, and anything she chooses to do to protect her borders and sovereignity. Therefore, Russia are active in fighting terrorists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.88.52.125 (talk) 13:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

No, Russia is not listed because they are not part of the specific campaign which this article is about. Every country that fights terrorists is not part of the United States' "War on Terror". Quadpus 12:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, explain then, what France do there? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.245.171.138 (talk) 09:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Read the article. France is mentioned several times as participating in operations which are known to be part of the USA "War on Terrorism". Quadpus 20:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• If Russia would be on the list of countries participating in the Global War On Terror, then every country not having fully legalised narcotics should be on the list of countries participating in the War on Drugs. This is every single country in the world.--Victor falk 18:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

israel is the cause of terror

i seached for any accusations that us foreign policy that favors israel over the palestinians as the cause of terror against the US and i didnt find any. this article needs to include the fact that it is Israel and its control of US Foreign Policy in the Middle East and the mistreatment of the Palestinians as the true reason we are attacked by Islamic radicals and not because we are a free country. 208.39.128.10 18:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input - would you happen to have a citation supporting this view? Addhoc 19:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

yes, just ask the terrorists. nowhere in any of bin ladens speeches does he say he hates freedom or america because it is a free country. bush says it because heaven forbid you blame israel for the things they do to innocent people with america's military and financial support. we always just express regret if we say anything at all. oh, and you're welcome for my input. Keltik31 21:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You could add a quote of bin Laden. But it should be offered as his opinion or rhetoric. By your reasoning americans can reasonably expect to get blown up in a restaurant by a hassidic Jew if Hezbollah doesn't disarm. I personally don't think mass murdering clerical fascist are credible.

It's always nice to see the pro-terrorist anti semite view point well represented on wikipedia. Judgesurreal777 04:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I was asked for clarification one what I meant by this, so I will explain; I was disputing the posters claim that America and Israel are to blame for why they were attacked on 9/11, which is indeed because of the extreme views of the terrorists and their desire to subjugate the world to a kind of totalitarian Islam, and not the terrorists self proclaimed "grievances" which they change every year to justify their atrocities. To argue that the fault for the instigation of the War on Terrorism lies with the West, and not with the terrorist themselves, is false, and to argue so is playing into the hands of terrorists who wish us to castigate ourselves for our minor faults rather than defeat them for their atrocities. No one should support the terrorist view point of "Blame America First", or Israel for that matter. Hope that is a bit clearer. Judgesurreal777 11:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

i see. so you are antisemetic if you disagree with anything that israel does? that would make a lot of jews antisemetic. the irish republican army resists british rule in the north or ireland. it is the treatment of catholics at the hands of the protestant government which drives the things that the IRA does. just as the things that israel does in the occupied territories drives the things that the likes of bin laden do. islam does not cause terrorism. injustice causes acts of violence. if we have terror because of islam, then what do we have because of judaism? greed? tell me. israels treatment of the palestinians is the cause of terror in the middle east. lets not forget that the zionists used terrorism to get their state as well. i dont believe in killing innocent people. but i also do not agree with expecting people to sit on thier hands when their homes are destroyed and their children are shot like israel does on a regular basis as we in america say nohing. Keltik31 18:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

While it is true that Isael's actions have caused a blowback effect in the form of terrorism, you really can't say they are the SOLE cause for terrorism in the Middle East. Yes, Bin Laden and other anti-American terrorists complain of the U.S.'s support of Israel, they also complain of westen military imperialism and immoral behavior (like allowing women to dress in anything but a burka). The causes of terrorism in the name of fundamentalist Islam throughout the Middle East are much more complicated than simply the actions of the Isaeli government.

Totally agree. Terrorism is rarely motivated by one simple grievance. Even the Northern Ireland situation is much more complicated than that and that is comparatively simple. I agree though that support for Israel by the West and in particular the US could be cited as one of many grievances of the terrorists. In fact a section on this would probably add to the article. As long as it doesn't become a soap box for terrorist sympathisers. (Ajkgordon 07:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC))

Despite argument about the short term reasoning used by UBL and the like, the long term goal of Al Qaeda and similar (Salafist/Wahaabi) organizations is the restoration of the Caliphate and the spread of a worldwide facist Islamic empire akin to the government of Saudi Arabia. These are UBL's own words, as well as his blame for Israel. In a certain way, Islamic Extremists' opposition to religious freedom and paramount misogyny are a hatred of us "because we are free" as the US allows women dress themselves and worship how they please. 75.41.58.207 09:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Why was my game link removed?

Heya. I placed a disambig link at the top of the page for the game War on Terror, since War On Terror redirects straight to this page. The game, which is a satire on the concept of the war on terror, has received a great deal of international press, as well as some infamy for being banned from many major toy and game fairs etc.. D.valued 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Because noone except you sees the game as notable enough for a disambiguation link. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Now, I may not be agreed with here, but personally, anything worthy of a wiki article, that shares it's name with something more noteworthy, deserves, at least a "did you mean?" link somewhere, or alternatively, a link to a disambig page if there is more than 1 article. Now, that's not to say tail should have a link to the character from the sonic the hedgehog games, but anything with an identical name should have the disambig. 24.205.34.217 03:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

ISAF part of "War on terrorism"?

I'd say they are not. Can someone give me a source or something to support that ISAF actually is part of it? Otherwise I think they should be removed from this article. --Merat 22:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked with the ISAF homepage, the word "terrorism" isn't mentioned in the mission page. --Merat 11:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps if you look at the UN resolution that authorized the ISAF, you will see the following: "Supporting international efforts to root out terrorism, in keeping with the Charter of the United Nations, and reaffirming also its resolutions 1368 (2001) of 12 September 2001 and 1373 (2001) of 28 September 2001,", see here: http://en.wikisource.org/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386 Fanra 07:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but that still doesn't mean that ISAF is part of the American led campaign "War on terrorism". --Merat 00:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I would say it does. That UN mandate’s context is a consequence and in many ways a continuation of the initial US led invasion of Afghanistan, especially considering the active combat operations ISAF forces (such as the Brits, Canadians, Dutch and others) are engaged in in the south. Chwyatt 08:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's very important to separate the US campaign the "War on Terrorism" (a campaign started by the current US president) from the more general struggle of Muslim Islamists/Fundamentalist against their enemies (a struggle/war that has been going on for a while).

My gut feeling is that the inclusion of the ISAF (and the countries participating in ISAF) is based in that they are also fighting Islamists in Afghanistan. However, the enemy of ones enemy is (encyclopaedically speaking) not ones friend; just because the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany fought against Poland together didn't mean that they were allied, and did absolutely not mean that they shared the same goals. Same with this one. I would agree with putting US forces and ISAF on the same side on the Afghanistan war article, but not in this one. Merat 23:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

What about Colombia?

Is Colombia part of this war? I think so... --((F3rn4nd0 )) 23:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What has Columbia to do with this? We might as well add the PRC on the "anti-terrorist" side and the Chinese democracy movement and Tibetian separatists as terrorists. Everyone will claim they are fighting a "War on terrorism" if they get a chance, even though most likely they are only fighting political opposition. Should Misplaced Pages support this crackdown on dissidents all over the world? --Merat 11:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the whole notion of War on terrorism is controversial. Misplaced Pages should keep a NPOV on these cases and what I am looking at here is that "the other fronts" should be included, the US military clearly states this.. --((F3rn4nd0 )) 19:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

GWOT vs. GSAVE

At some point in 2005, I believe the administration officially changed the name from "Global War on Terror" to "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism." Obviously, the name change didn't stick, but it's worth mention. Indeed, this article redirects from "GSAVE", yet GSAVE isn't mentioned in the article. Therefore I suggest someone add a piece to this article documenting this attempted name change. Here's a couple of links to get started: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4772826 208.64.241.229 17:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Blackwater USA

The article should include Blackwater USA--F3rn4nd0 17:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Too superficial?

No doubt this article is a NPOV minefield, but it doesn't even mention oil. There needs to be some acknowledgement of the disconnect between the rhetoric and reality. Peter Grey 15:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Commentary by crivers01

the war in iraq has completely dis-unified our country. people oppose this war because their loved one's and friends are being sent over their to create peace. their not creating peace their causeing more war. people blame the president for all of this. 9-11 was the only reason we should have gone over there, and we did we had to find the person behind it all. so ok we did that, then we wanted to start up a democracy over their. thats their own problem if they cannot get along with each other when it comes to politics. our first president george washington stated as a precendent " we as a country will not interfere with forgin affairs". we can argue about this war forever but it was a dumb move on the presidents part. we should get all troops out of iraq for good!!!! we are fighting for a bad reason. we should completely stay out of forign affairs and keep out of things.

why?!

why do we interfere with forign affairs. thats not what we are supposed to do. we do not need any more soilders dying over in iraq. we need to pull out all troops. our first president george washington stated as a presedent " we do not need to interfere with forign affairs". what makes this any different. our president is the one to blame. the only reason we needed to go over their was to find out who was behind the 9-11 atacks and we did. now we do not need to be helping to rebuild and create a goverment. thats their job not ours. if they can't get along when it comes to politics then thats too bad on their part. we need to pull troops out of iraq for good!!!! i would like to hear your opinions about this 'war on terror' User:crivers01

responses

Excellent points, but an encyclopedia reports opinions of notable parties, not just anyone. The War on Terrorism slogan is, at best, weakly related to actual terrorism, and the article should not leave criticisms as an afterthought. I'm sure some prominent politicians or analysts have made similar points and can be corroborated with reliable sources. Peter Grey 03:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to sit at home on your computer and say we should pull all troops out of Iraq for good. but there are innocent Iraqi civilians just like you or me in that country who will be murdered by the republican army when the troops leave. The war on terror is a problem that exists over seas, but the inncoent people in that country are just like you or me, but they arn't protected like us. I think every innocent person in the world is intitled to some safety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fleming 663 (talk • contribs)

But you think we should kill them for there own security? He was merely stating his opinion in what he believes in-as did you. I personally think your statement was incorrect, because when we leave (if we leave) they will retaliate. Its human nature to take that course of action. There affairs are there affairs, and the United States should not act as the world police. But thats just my 2 cents. ~Sage1989

i agree we should not be the world police. i think we are playing a game of chance. what extra security are we getting y not tell iraq that nobody should come over into america or we will have to dod something about it. crivers01

continued

ok but what are politicans doing absoutly nothing about it. people are dying every day over their and we are letting them. somebody should do something or let time go by with the troops in iraq until bush is out of office for good! — Preceding unsigned comment added by crivers01 (talk • contribs)

This is an encyclopedia, not a political action blog. This article can provide information about the rhetoric, the reality and the results of the compaign (quite different from each other in this case), but humans are the ones who will have to take action. Peter Grey 03:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

He is simply stating an opinion to which he has a right to. At least he didnt edit the main page with his comments. ~Sage1989

thank you someone will hear me out about this ===crivers01===

Not to pry, but werent you banned from wikipedia? ~Sage1989

i created another account with the same name again but different e-mail===crivers01===

Don't complain about a war if you can't even spell "Foreign". Also, Washington was EXTREMELY isolationist, and we have since established a much more involved foreign policy. Also...why are we there? Because if we don't try to battle terrorists on this scale, NOBODY ELSE WILL. Kang227 15:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, he is stating an opinion to which he has a right to. America has the right to free speech, right? It apparently also has the "right to be a nonentalite", as showing through you. Leave the kid alone-its not like he's damaging the site at all.

Global perspectives

Currently the "international" sections of this article detail only foreign (with respect to the U.S.) military involvement; there is little or no attention paid to International opinion/reactions to the War on Terror/Terrorism. This is inconsistent with the encyclopedia-wide effort to CSB. I will attempt to add relevant global perspectives to this article shortly, as well as do my part to clean up the entry in general, but I'm also interested in hearing others' thoughts about these issues. This is, of course, not a question of personal politics, but of making sure global vantages are successfully incorporated into major entries.Benzocane 21:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Length of intro and general organization

Does anybody else feel the like the intro is too long? Compared to other similar entries, it's lengthy indeed. I'm considering attempting a major restructuring--to make the intro efficient and to redistribute its more in depth comments to relevant sections and subsections. Most of the discussion on talk has consisted of political debates, but I'm concerned with the readability and encyclopedic nature of the entry. Benzocane 23:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've made a first pass--I've removed some redundant information, but basically I've tried to redistribute the lengthy introduction into more coherent sections. This article, to put it mildly, needs a ton of work, and what I've done constitutes no more than a very limited start. I welcome thoughts and help, of course! I will try to keep improving organization. Right now I'm focused almost exclusively on form, not content.

Removed unsourced paragraph

This paragraph seems like the opinion of one editor, not encyclopedic, source-based text. Also, because it comes so early in the entry, I feel like it's contributed to the general unencyclopedic tone of the entry, which I, along with others, have been trying to correct. Finally, a more authoritative version of this argument is already noted in other sections of the article:

"In a hard-headed Clausewitzian analysis, the phrase "war on terror" has no meaning; one makes war on an enemy, not on a method, although it logically could be used to indicate a war on the people who use such a method. The enemy may be an entity such as al-Qaeda. And the use of the term "jihadist" is also misleading, as there are a number of groups involved in asymmetric warmaking with secular or religious backgrounds and levels of willingness to engage in direct action."

Benzocane 01:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The section headed as 'Stated US objectives and strategies' is currently comprised of a series of bullet points regarding the US strategy in the war on terror, followed by two paragraphs that highlight the role of democracy in countering terrorism. Although these two paragraphs mention two strategy papers, they are unsourced and redundantly composed. The US strategy on countering terrorism seems adequately outlined in the series of bullet point, and, hence, I have removed the two unsourced paragraphs.

--Jimmyhogg 12:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Jimmyhogg--good to see your editing again. This article is coming along, but still needs work, and I'm glad to have another editor on the job. I agree with your edit above.Benzocane 16:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Heres a question for all you fools who support the war. How do we when this war? How long do we have to stay? Who do we have to kill? How many do we have to kill? What are our goals? What the fuck are we doing there? No one is stating goes and the president says "If we have a stated time line the terrorist win". Are you fools that dense. What the hell are we doing there?

New Title

The title of this article is a misnomer, a better term would be "War of Terror" The truth hurts only those who lie.

Cute, but not encyclopedic. See WP:NOT#OTHOUGHT and WP:SOAP. As of this comment, User:El C has vandalized this article in this way.

"The War of Terror ... is an umbrella term coined by the Bush administration..." El C must know that his term was not coined by the Bush administration.

"Both the phrase 'War of Terror' and the policies it denotes have been a source of ongoing controversy, as critics argue it has been used to justify unilateral preemptive war, human rights abuses, and other violations of international law." Critics of his term have said no such thing, at least according to the citations.

Don't vandalize Misplaced Pages. Not cool. IEdML 21:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

If I could change the Main Title I would since there really lies the issue.

"War on Terror" is the name it's known by. Still, the ironic and/or Orwellian character could be expounded a little better. Peter Grey 22:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This page is pretty biased and obviously based off of opionion.

Who ever wrote this isn't writing about fact, they are finding information that contriibutes to their own outlook of the war.

I agre with you aNNoN. Best bishes, Miguel

The Global War on Terror

Global War on Terror, used repeatedly in the internal text of the October 16, 2003, memo written by Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, entitled Global War on Terrorism, seems to be a new rhetorical device justifying expansion of the "war" and perhaps new agencies. Citing the memo:

"Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we
capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the
radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?" 

In this view, which is relatively new even for the Bush administration, the goal is not to end the threat posed by terrorist groups of global reach, the previously stated objective, but the eradication of all militant Islamic groups that cross the line from militancy into attacks on the USA and its allies, wherever they are, whether they have a right to be there or not. It is the eradication of a mind-set that is the objective, not specific groups.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Global_War_on_Terror

Chechen rebels ARE terrorists

To the moron who said: "not every rebellion is a part of War on Terror", you are really stupid. Tell to the parents of Beslan that Chechens are not terrorists! Sergei

This is article is very specifically about the US-led "War on Terrorism" campaign. The war in Chechnya is not a part of this specific campaign, it actually began years earlier and predates the campaign. Thats why its not a part of this specific one - it has nothing to do with the status of the rebels in Chechnya. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a source next to Russias flag that shows they are part of the war, so people stop removing them! Also, Russia is in Afghanistan.

Look, if this page has Estonia listed, who isn't doing a damn thing against the terrorists, Russia, who has 90, 000, 000 troops fighting in Chechnya DEFINATELY deserves at least some mention! Also, the government of USA has called Russia one of it's key partners in the war on Terror, and also expressed condolences for all the people that died as a result of Chechen extremism/terrorism. --24.87.7.43 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Sergei

... As I said, this is about the specific campaign begun October 7th 2001. The Chechen war, while arguably against terrorists, began before this and therefore was not begun under the campaign. Russia is definitately involved in other aspects of the US-led campaign, but the chechen war is not a component. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't see how this thread qualifies as explanation for Mr 24.87.7.43 to re-insert this content. Rangeley has already explained to you why the Chechen war is not part of this campaign. Apart from Rangeley, three other users (me, User:Willy turner and User:Discospinster) have removed your content and you have not as much as followed up on this discussion nor had anyone else support your view - obviously there is no consensus to have this content it here. Whatever your view on Chechnya is, this is not the page for it, please see other articles, such as: Terrorism.--Konstable 07:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

To 24.87.7.43 aka Sergei, I will not leave this on your talk page as you have a shared IP, so I will put it here. An important reminder for you: you have made 3 reverts on this page, one more and you will be violating the three revert rule, which may lead to you being blocked. Please discuss first, even if you think we're all wrong - tell us why.--Konstable 07:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever!! I don't argue with hyppocrites! You people are so biased anti-Russia, it makes me sick! In your mind, only your precious US of A is fighting TERRORISTS, ands Russia, who as I said fought a bloody war in Chechnya, against extremists, who blow up schools, with children in them, murderers, who takle hostages, and slash their throats and videos of it, fucking barbaric sub-humans, who raped all women, and killed every single man in all Russian communities in Chechnya that they ever came in! But these are not TERRORISTS, these are "innocent Chechen civillians"! Boo hoo! Like I said, you are all hyppocrites and Russophobes, and this site is CRAP!!! --199.60.112.15 17:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Sergei

Inclusion of France

Sorry if I've missed it but why is France not listed in the list of combatants? She's listed in the Operation Enduring Freedom article and I thought that the US government considered that as part of its WOT. (Ajkgordon 08:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Probably because not every single nation can be listed, or should be listed in the infobox on this page. Thats what the other page is for. France's contribution has not been one of the largest, therefore it is probably misplaced in the infobox. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, France was a fairly large contributor to Operation Enduring Freedom if I recall correctly. Trouble is France isn't even listed under "and others" from the infobox. Is it possibly simple anti-French sentiment? There's a lot of it about :) (Ajkgordon 09:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

You can never know for sure why it was removed from there, but either way, it should definitely be listed on the "others" page. ~Rangeley (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Palestine

I love how Palestine, whose oppressed people are lucky if they can go a night without some US supplied F16 flying overhead and blowing up their homes, are listed as "terrorists" and the innocent, peaceful Israelis listed as the good guys.

The standard definition of "terrorist" seems to be as follows:

Terrorist (n) - Any man, woman or child blown up or otherwise killed by US or Israeli aggression. 203.49.216.12 00:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Palestine was removed, along with various others like Azerbaijan which certainly have not been targets of this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible Abbrieviation for the War Against Terror

TWAT, anyone? Henners91 08:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Other" casualty numbers

Can't speak for the other countries mentioned, but Canada has lost 167 in Afghanistan, according to http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/casualties/total.html, and 24 on 9/11, according to http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/09/11/newyork-sept11.html. Unless I'm forgetting something (I imagine there were a few Canadians dead in Bali, for instance), that 1,222 number is a fantasy. These figures need to be checked!Martin McCarvill 21:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

War On Terror - Timeline

Since this article is disputed over its neutrality, and due to the fact that it's based off an ongoing event, then should this article be temporarily disabled, and/or deleted, until the information is accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhansond2007 (talk • contribs)

I'm not going to comment on the accuracy of the information in the article, but this variety of title change should really be discussed before being moved. I've gone ahead and reverted your change. If you wish to move this article from it's current name, please go to WP:RM and follow the process defined there. --Bobblehead 23:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Israel wrongly placed

Israel is fighting a separate war on terrorism, unrelated to 11 September. They are not fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. JonnyLate 22:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Israel is also not part of the Coalition of the Willing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm JonnyLate 22:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

several articles in one

Reading the article, the Israeli and Hezbollah conflict is here but shouldn't be. Even if US President Bush says its a front of the war, such declaration has nothing to do with 9 11. Hezbollah is just a terrorist group who is bad but separate from bin Laden. JonnyLate 23:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not about a war, its about a US-led campaign. Things designated by the US government as a part of the campaign are parts of the campaign, just like subops are part of operations as designated by the respective government which began them. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Combatants - OR/POV?

Is there a source for this list or a criteria for inclusion? As far as I know this "War on Terrorism" is a phrase, or policy, of the American government rather than an actual specific war, so I don't quite understand this "list of combatants" or where it came from.--Konstable 00:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The "War on Terrorism" being referred to here is a US-led campaign, as stated in the intro. Just like suboperations are a part of a larger operation, operations can sometimes be a part of something larger, ie a campaign. The combatants that should be listed here are the major ones from the various smaller operations which have been designated, by the US government, as a part of this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

But how do you define "major"? --AJKGordon 09:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I dont know that there is a Misplaced Pages-wide consensus on that. It really depends on the operation. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but "War on Terror" is not a specific operation, nor a specific war - it is just a political term. Yet you have a conflict infobox here with a list of combatants. I doubt that half of the combatants even on the "American side" accept that they are fighting a "War on Terror". Iraq is meant to be part of this war on terror yet Russia there was planning to veto the UN resolution for this war - how does this place them on the same "side"? What about the groups on the right hand "side"? Do they accept that they are fighting everyone on the left? Do they agree that all this is one conflict? This very article cites that even UK, America's best friend, does not accept that this is a "war on terror" nor that terrorism is a military conflict. So what you have here is a POV. I think the conflict infobox should go altogether, I don't see how it is appropriate to label one country's political rhetoric as a world-wide "conflict" with well defined sides.--Konstable 23:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You are quite wrong in regards to it being merely a political term. While it is used as one often, this article is about the actual military designation under which many operations have been begun, ie a military campaign. In this sense, the article has a very specific focus, which has sadly been lost over the many months of editing. The infobox, originally, had qualifiers on each side. On one side, it was labeled "Participants in Operations," and the other, "Targets of Operations." Not every participant was in every operation, nor did they necessarilly agree with every operation, but they nonetheless participated in an operation and would be marked thus. Not every target of an operation was in every operation - in fact none of them were in every operation. Yet they were targets in an operation and were marked thus.

What has unfortunately happened is this article has become a mesh of several different concepts, some people try and focus on the term itself, others think its a war against terrorists and any battle against terrorists would automatically be a part of it. Neither of these ideas are quite on the money. As I said above, its an actual governmental campaign under which policies and operations have occured. I have often suggested a new article be made dealing specifically with the term, War on Terror, and its numerous applications throughout history. I have also suggested that an article be made about a supposed wider war/ideological struggle. But it doesnt seem like anyone makes these, instead this one gets cluttered and pretty darn confusing if you try to read it.

But maybe now would be a good time to do it, since there seems to be more interest in it. With an article on the governmental campaign named the War on Terror, an article on the term itself, and an article on a theoretical ideological struggle/conflict/war, things would be much cleaner and maybe the same problems would stop arising. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Instead of arguing about the participants in the "War on Terror" campaign we should list each operation that the campaign involves. That way in each operation's article we can list the specific participants instead of clouting them all under one banner when in fact they aren't all fighting the same enemies. ~Alex40045

We could use an idea similar to the one implemented on the War in Somalia (2006–present) article. They seperate their combattants by region, and this could easilly be implemented here. We would take the major combattants in the major operations, and identify them in that matter. ~Rangeley (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is sensible. Because the War On Terror is primarily an American political and ideological term rather than a specific military campaign with a varying amount of controversy among even some of her closest allies, combatants should only be listed in defined military campaigns associated with it. The article itself can easily describe the relationships between the US and generally aligned supportive countries without having to resort to a definitive list which, by its nature, can't differentiate the nuances and complex diplomatic relationships.

A case in point is the inclusion of France in the list of combatants. It appears to be a controversial inclusion and is constantly removed, probably because of anti-French sentiment fermented by France's refusal to accept American policy in Iraq (although Germany never seem to be singled out!), and yet they are major contributors to operations in Afghanistan, have a large military contingent in Lebanon, and have a sophisticated internal security policy to defend against terrorism.

Thus I move that the list of combatants is removed and replaced by a list of campaigns, which, in turn, can have their definitive lists. --AJKGordon 09:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't Iran in the combatants list on the terrorist side?

They have long been helping all kinds of terrorists. They should at least be listed on the terrorists side? Why not? --24.87.7.43 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Sergei

Iran may only be considered a partial terrorist, but only with/within Bush administration.

If somebody is interested in this link http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070720/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_terrorism its interesting he signed it,(to avoid criticism) somebody can put it under links. Iran may be connected to some form of insurgent support but only in iraq as they have majority shiite ties for centuries and saddam was that block until he was removed. And now Iraq can not do much on iran, since they have the upper hand. And do pretty much what they want in politics of the middle east.

Please can someone delete the table of "combatants"!

There is huge debate about who should be included on this list and who shouldnt. The war on terror like stated in the article is too general and relates to too many things, Such as the conflict in Iraq and in Afghanistan. The ISAF are fighting in Afghanistan, As are the French and Germans yet they are not included in the list, This is a serious factual error. As it is so hard to define, it should just be deleted to prevent people being mis informed. If i was French or German i would be insulted that after my country sends troops into a combat zone, its not included on the list.

I would delete the table myself if i didnt worry that id mess up the whole article. I will check back here in a few days time, if no one has replied or removed it i will attempt to myself. I hope by that time someone will of removed the table already, because it is useless and misleading information.

6:35 Sunday 22nd of July - British Summer Time

I agree. I'm afraid, although I'd love to assume good faith, that there is either anti-"Old Europe" bias or that some "Old Europeans" don't want to be associated with the WoT. Similar edits are made on the International_contributions_to_the_War_Against_Terrorism article that has multiple campaigns - NATO members are being systematically removed from NATO lists. --AJKGordon 11:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is the image of the Kosovo Liberation army's flag in the Combatants table so big? Hera52 13:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Shorten the list of combatants

I think the list of combatants should be shortened. The list is a good model: it lists China, France, the Soviet Union, the UK and the US with a link to a larger article on all the Allies at the bottom of the list. Likewise, the Axis column lists only the Germany, Italy and Japan.

Is there a consensus on exactly which conflicts are part of the War on Terror? Soviet Canuckistan 21:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I just removed the list of combatants and the casulties aswell as everything in that small info block on the top right hand side of the page. It provided no accurate information at all. Its been over a week and despite the fact its been pointed out France and Germany are not included on the list nothing has been done to change it.

Until in discussion a detailed list of these things can be agreed to, it should not be put on the article page.

Simon - 2:47am BST 31st of July 2007

Well someone undid the changes.. Do the people who make re edit pages actually read the discussion page? The amount of debate on the issue of whos on whos side shows this must be changed. This article is very insulting to countries that are putting 1000s of troops on the ground in dangerous locations.. to be "left out" of these lists.

Simon - 2:55am BST 31st of July 2007

Agree we should have the most complete information possible, splitting off to another article if needed -- since you seem to be interested, would you be able or willing to find some sourcing as to the other information you've mentioned? :) – Luna Santin (talk) 02:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of information / sources of this even on Wiki, the problem is the "war on terror" is such an open ended phrase its almost impossible to define with agreement from all sides. This is why i believe in an attempt to avoid clear bias and incorrect information the "Casualties and Combatants lists" should be removed. Im not very happy with the way some of the article is written but people look at the data on the right hand side thinking its the basic facts and go away believing the list as they are use to seeing it for other conflicts such as WW2.

Now there are huge arguments about who belongs on which side of the list and i really can not understand why some have been left out. The biggest problem i have is the fact ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) is not being included. The "War on Terror" began with the invasion of Afghanistan

    "The War in Afghanistan (2001–present) began on October 7, 2001, as a response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States of America (U.S.). This marked the beginning of the U.S. War on Terrorism" 
   http://en.wikipedia.org/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)

The above page lists the ISAF as a combatant in the conflict along with Afghanistan and the Northern alliance who both appear on the combatant list of the "War on Terror" page but ISAF doesnt. If we can agree Afghanistan is part of the "war on terror" surely its common sense to include ISAF.

This would only offer a small improvement though, for some reason France and Germany are purposely being kept off this list of combatants which is what i have a major problem with. For example Slovakia is listed as a combatant the link below shows a list of current contributions to the ISAF 

http://en.wikipedia.org/International_Security_Assistance_Force#Contributing_nations

According to this, Slovakia is providing 60 engineers, France 1000 troops and Germany 3000. How is it right a country with 3000 troops on the ground is not worthy of being named when Slovakia is? This really is insulting to many people, especially those with family serving in the military forces of those countries.

There are many questions, What is China doing on there? Should the United Nations, the European Union and NATO be included on the list? What about Saudi Arabia who have foiled plots by Al-Qaeda? (Listned on casualties but not combatants). Should Iran be listed as an enemy combatant as we have documented evidence they are providing support to other members on that list? What about Russia who are supply Iran with weapons? The list of enemy combatants suggests they are all on the same side, even though some of the groups listed fight each other aswell. These are just a few of many questions some people have.

This is not war its a phrase, therefor it should not have the combatant / casualties list. Unless someone can do a really good editing job with this without any bias i cant see any option but to delete it.

Simon - 12:02 PM BST - 31st of July 2007 (Sorry about the two boxes on part of the text i dont understand how they were added or how to remove them)

OK here is what I say about the shortening of the combatant list, use World war two as a model, they put only the major players in the box and a link to the list of all of the others. Also you are wrong War on terrorism is not just a phrase. It's a global conflict just like the Cold war was. Are you going to say that the Cold war was just a phrase. As for the combatant list, leave the link that is already there to the full list of players and put only the big ones, and here is the gys I recomend: United States, United Kingdom, Israel, Russia, Pakistan, Canada (because of the great contribution to Afghanistan), Iraq (post-Sadam), India, Saudi Arabia, Phillipines, Ethiopia (the Somali front against the ICU). And I think that is preaty much enough, anyone else want to add one or two more be may guest, but I think this is enough, if anyone doesn't abject by tomorow I will make these changes then. User:Top Gun

The Cold war was totally different, the enemy was clearly defined. (Soviet Union and Communist countries / ideals) Terrorism is just a tactic, used by different groups for different goals, for example

HAMAS want the destruction of Israel and to free Palestine, the terrorists who attacked the Russian school wanted to liberate their people from Russian occupation, Hezbollah was formed to resist Israeli occupation of Lebanon, while these groups may use some of the same tactics as Al-Qaeda they are totally different. Claiming they are all the same has made it harder for us to resolve the different issues.

Now you say "Canada (because of the great contribition to Afghanistan) What about France and Germany? What about Italy sending troops to the border of Israel / Lebanon? As Hezbollah is an enemy combatant surely Italy belongs on the combatant list aswell?

As for the Casualties lists in the info box, why include something that has to be updated almost everyday yet provides little important information. Some of the Casualties listed include FATAH, why is this on the list when its not on the combatant list? While there is genuine debate about who belongs on each side of the list or if its needed at all i think the Casualties list is just sloppy, and too hard to keep up to date. People can read the actual article and go on for further reading about deaths for specific conflicts in the "War on Terror"

I also took a quick look at the "Cold war" wiki page, it does not have the list of combatants, or casualties in an information box on the right. If there isnt one for a "war" thats finished and far easier to define the two sides how can we even consider having one for this? The changes you suggest would still leave the same problems, but i do agree it shouldnt have such a huge list of countries in the one box.

- Simon - 9:50pm BST - 31st of July 2007

Yet again I think you are wrong. The war on terrorism I would say is even much clearly defined. The enemy is RADICAL ISLAMISM (that is THE one point that connects all of the groups fighting the West, even if they differ in tactics and some points of their ideology they all belong to radical Islam). As for the casualties numbers, if it is such a big thing I will update the numbers every week or so, it's not your problem and I don't see how it is sloppy, the numbers are all verified, checked and sourced, and for the sake of the infobox I only included the military casualties. In regards to Fatah, they fight Hamas which is an enemy of the U.S. and the west, and if it is not on the combatant list then put it their yourself and don't make a fuss over it. AHH HELL ENOUGH OF DEBATE, I AM SHORTENING THE LIST, STOP TALKING AND START DOING SOMETHING, THERE IS ALREADY A LINK TO THE FULL LIST OF ALLIES SO WHAT FUNCTION DOES THIS LARGE LIST HAVE HERE?User:Top Gun

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