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This is an archive of past discussions about Battle of Jenin (2002). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Cassus Belli

Why is is that we have a cassus belli entry on this article, we dont have cassus belli for other attacks by Palestinians - and isn't really general practice elsewhere (I'm sure if Bin Laden edited the S11 article he'd add a Cassus Belli entry. This legitimizes the attack by suggesting the actions where justified and is clearly P.O.V. We should either add Cassus Belli everywhere or not use it at all - it can't simply be used selectively whenever an editor decides something was justified.

The text implies (or at least "it may be inferred from") that the PA suggested the 3,000 death toll. Is this true -- if so, say it, if not, say who did say "3,000"... -- User:GWO

Beats me. I was just answering a question on a talk page, by copying a couple of factoids from the Jenin article. My impression was that some anti-Israeli political group was trying to get Israel in trouble with the UN, by claiming genocide or crimes against humanity.

Kind of like the "World Conference on Racism" in September 2001 which only found one country (suprise! Israel) as racist -- although it permits Arabs to be citizens and permits non-Jews to practice their religion. Other countries, such as the non-democratic Arab bloc which persecute non-Islamic people, got no criticism. --Ed Poor

precursors

I have added a precursors section as nothing happens in a vacuum Juanita 20:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Battle

I plan to work on this section a bit. Try to make it read a bit better and clearer. I will justify my changes here. Juanita 20:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC) I worked it over quite a bit, presenting the Israel and consensus point of view, while not editing out the Palestinian position. I added some footnotes. Please check out my sources before you edit. Juanita 00:16, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for putting the time in to sort out tedious text, good job! I did a few edits to 1-2 where I thought was a bit too OR, and also retrieved some sourced material that you had removed (although in paraphrase and shortened). You left in the part about 'war crimes' but took out the context, so I re-added it. Ramallite 13:33, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Done a bit of my own. -- Tomhab 23:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

identifying civilian from combatant

this article is biased. Wherever the word Israel appears, language is curbed and the circumstances are glossed over. Wherever independent sources appear the claims are quickly rebuked. what a joke /lame.

I have removed a section from this text that claims that Palestinian civilian deaths can be imputed to the difficulty in "identifying civilian from combatant". This is POV and frankly does not tally with events as reported.

The many cases documented in the reports compiled by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirm that many of the civilians were killed

a) in situations where their role as non-combatant was beyond any reasonable doubt

See the cases listed in Amnesty International's report on Jenin: ]

b) in houses that were demolished with little or no notice given to the occupants.

I quote from Amnesty International's report on Jenin:

"In several cases the IDF caused the deaths of Palestinians by demolishing homes while residents were still inside. IDF soldiers frequently failed to give adequate warnings before demolishing houses, refused to allow family and neighbours to warn residents, failed to offer help themselves or to call rescue units or ambulances and sometimes shot at those who tried to help." ]

User:Faulenzer

Problem is that the way you've changed it assumes that the "at least 22" bit is a fact - which is disputed. -- Tomhab 13:25, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I read some of the report, and found this diclaimer:

"IDF figures give 52 Palestinians killed and say that only 14 were not fighters (i.e every Palestinian male between 15 and 55 was counted as a fighter). Amnesty International has not studied each case; according to Palestinian statistics and Human Rights Watch about 22 of those killed were fighters. According to an UNRWA survey taken in the Jenin refugee camp after the IDF left the camp in April, only one person is currently reported as missing. See Israel, the Occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Palestinian Authority Territories : Jenin IDF Military Operations, Human Rights Watch Report.

Since they data relies on secondary sources, it is disputed. The situation is that now almost everyone agrees on about 52 death toll but there are still disputs over the amounts of civilian killed, and how many were indeed killed by the IDF and bot by their fellows militants' booby traps. MathKnight 13:33, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The same quote doesn't say that HRW didn't study each case though...? Actually why does the article say that 7 civilians were killed according to the IDF, when actually it was 14? -- Tomhab 13:47, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The text is based on a press report or citation, but since many links turned dead it will take time to find it. I'll do it soon. MathKnight 17:18, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I found earlier estimation in Time's article

Then came the counting of casualties — and arguments about the count. Throughout the operation, Palestinian officials had said that as many as 800 had been killed. As is the case in the Middle East, the figure was inflated to fit local beliefs of Israeli depravity and Palestinian victimization: last week an Iranian waiter in Rome told an Israeli visitor of 16,000 people slaughtered in Jenin. The reality was different, though body counts and estimates of civilian casualties vary. Charles Kapes, the deputy chief of the U.N. office in the camp, says 54 dead have been pulled from the wreckage and 49 Palestinians are missing, of whom 18 are residents of the camp. Human Rights Watch says 52 were killed, of whom only 27 were thought to be armed Palestinians. The Israelis say they found 46 dead in the rubble, including a pile of five bodies that had been booby-trapped. Of these 46, say the Israelis, all but three were "fighters," men ages 18 to 40. The Jenin Hospital, meanwhile, says 52 camp residents died, including five women and four children under the age of 15. Of the 43 dead men, eight were 55 or older and therefore probably not involved in the fighting. No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre," concludes Amnesty's Holley.

So what we realy learned here that it agreed the only 52-54 Palestinian were killed, the inner body count and classification of the dead is still hotly disputed. MathKnight 21:37, 12 May 2005 (UTC)