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Revision as of 01:23, 1 December 2003

I disagree, there are clearly jewish groups from the time of the maccabees down to the destruction of the second temple that believed that their leader was the messiah. Said leader was certainly not Jesus in most cases, but such groups are properly described as a form of messianic judaism.J.F.Quackenbush

You are right. Ignore RK here, who is not qualified to comment on any issue of religion.

Please do not misunderstand I totally agree with you. You are saying that these Jewish groups had messianic beliefs, so you point out that one may describe these groups as "messianic Judaism". Perhaps so, but I was referring to the fact that in common useage the phrase "messianic Judasm" has a specific meaning: It refers to 20th century groups, that's all. RK

This is the reason that I made the distinction between usage towards matters of antiquity and usage in modern English. I agree with you, most people who say "messianic Judaism" nowadays really mean to say "Christianity". This does not, however, alter the fact that the term has a secondary, and possibly older usage that is not sourced in evangelism.J.F.Quackenbush

Furthermore, historians make a clear distinction between the jewish, aramaic speaking "jesus movement" in judaea and the romanized, greek speaking "christian movement" of paul that took hold in Greece, Turkey, and northern Africa. The former is occasionally referred to as messianic judaism.

I was not aware that this was a common useage. RK

I don't know how common it is, but I know I've seen it used in reference to the followers of Simon ben Kosiba at the very least.J.F.Quackenbush

I'm certainly open to a different way of stating that first paragraph, but there should be some mention of this simple fact. Furthermore, I think the article as it now stands is a bit to polemical, but that's just my opinion.

Could be. I just hope that people note the polemics are not about the beliefs of these groups, but rather about truth-in-advertising concerns. (I.E. I am sure that the Christian groups with these concerns are just as Christian as the messianic Jewish groups. They certainly are not arguing against Christianity.) RK

none the less, I'm still not sure it's appropriate in this venue. Then again, I'm new.J.F.Quackenbush

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"" "Jews for Jesus" filed a suit in a State Supreme Court in Manhattan against a 600-member Council. The Rev. Jack Alford, the executive director of the Council, said the suit "proves the point we were making about their tactics.""

What is that "point"? That Jews don't sue, and Protestants do? This is extremely stupid, and probably doesn't belong here.

Folks, "Messianic Judaism" refers invariably to Christian groups. There may be dozens of other Jewish groups following a different Messiah; but they are not _ever_ called "Messianic Judaism". The religion of the non-Christian groups is called "Judaism", and they are called "messianists", or "followers of ...". There have been dozens of messianist Jewish movements. Where are ANY of them called "Messianic Judaism", other than these modern Christian groups, except (for the moment) on Misplaced Pages? Certainly, we can mention the other messianic groups; but the normative use of the term is not that generalized reference. It has a more specific reference. Mkmcconn 20:45, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Mkmcconn is obviously correct. Messianic Judaism refers specifically to Christian groups. Lubavitch, or earlier, Sabbateans, are not Messianic Jews, nor are the followers of Bar Kochba 132-135 C.E., Reubeni, Molcho, Luzzatto, or any other historical figure with messianic pretensions. Also, Messianic Judaism is not "within" the Jewish community. It is universally rejected by Jews. Danny 14:42, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I removed the bit about Al Mohler. As insidious as it may or may not be, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Messianic Jews consider themselves adherents of Judaism, who accept Jesus as the Messiah. Mohler was talking about converting Jews to Christianity, not to Messianic Judaism--a distinction even many Messianic Jews would make. Put it in an article about Missionary efforts to the Jews, if you want (personally, I don't think it makes the cut), but this isn't the place for it. Danny 14:14, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"most Jews regard them as Christians who have merely adopted the outward and cultural trappings of Judaism". Almost certainly not the case. Almost all Messianic Jews were Jews before they were Messianic, (there being no incentive for a Christian who is not ethnically Jewish to adopt Jewish customs or practice). I'm going to replace it with something which is more correct and I hope acceptable. DJ Clayworth 22:10, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The intention of the sentence appears to be that, Messianic Judaism is not considered Jewish by any branch of Judaism (and that is true). "Racial" jewishness is not a factor, in this judgment (there are Buddhists of Jewish ancestry, too. But, Buddhism has nothing to do with Jewishness). Exactly so - in my irrelevant opinion, unjustly - Christianity is judged by all branches of Judaism to have nothing to do with Jewishness, either, except a long ago and now expired status as a Jewish 'sect'. On the other issue, it is not true that Christianity + Jewish practice is unattractive to some, or even many, Gentile Christians. Mkmcconn 01:50, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Do they mean Jews for Jesus?

The article either has NPOV problems or was written by someone who has no understanding of the difference between Jews for Jesus (an evangelical christian organization) and messianics amongst Judaism. It is a well known fact that some prominent Zionists were messianic in their beliefs. Messianic Jews are not organised as the article suggests and are a common phenomenon amongst the Reform Judaic movement. The reform Jewish support for Israel itself is a messianic practice. Messianics usually keep their beliefs to themselves and interact as usual with whatever communities they belong to in the usual ways. Moreover there are many varying degrees of messianic Jew which is totally ignored by the article if Zionists are at the right then the midway messianics regard John & Jesus as reformistic rabbis and consider their words along with the idea that messiah is a spirit within us unlike people at the extreem left end of the scale (although very few other messianics would consider such as still Jewish in anything but perhaps ethnicity) perhaps approaching in belief the extreeme "Jews for Jesus" who accept all the Christian doctrines and cannot really be considered Jewish. And in fact even non Jews can be messianic if they are active workers for mankind's bright future. This article needs a complete overhaul. Preferably by not by a Christian, nor a mainstream Jew, nor a Jew for Jesus but by a Messianic Jew.

"Messianic Judaism" is, in the English language, for better or for worse, in fact, an Evangelical Christian movement. Maybe that isn't the way that it ought to be, in a perfect world (I happen to think it's a good thing), but it is simply so. Run the google test on "Messianic Judaism", and you will see that you are proposing an overhaul not only of this page, but of 99% of the internet. Thank God, there is more to the world than the internet; but, it is a good indication of how mistaken you are, about this terminology. It has been captured by Evangelical Christians, reducing Messianist (non-Christian) Judaism to an appendage. So rein yourself in, before you undertake a "complete overhaul". Mkmcconn 16:38, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Mkmcconn. RK 01:23, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, when I first found this page I assumed it would be about messianic Judaism, not about Messianic Judaism. It needs to have the disambiguation more clear. The problem is that I don't know if we have a good article on messianic Judaism to send people to. --Zero 00:44, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Um, what do you mean? I am not familiar with any difference in meaning due only to capitalization. RK 01:23, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

This article was originally about Christian Jewish groups; that is, groups that practice Christianity, but aspire to preach to Jews and to gain an ethnically Jewish membership. The goal of these groups is to convert Jews to Christianity. Over time, this article has recently come to include messianic quasi-Christian, quasi-Jewish groups that believe that Jesus was the messiah (which puts them outside the bounds of Judaism as it is known today) yet which also deny that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity (which puts them outside the bounds of Christianity.) This expansion of topic seems reasonable, and I just wish to caution that we make clear the distinctions between these groups. However a new person is confused about the terminology, and seems to think that it should deal wit any form of messianism inside Judaism. That would be grossly misleading. Traditional rabbinic Judaism does have certain beliefs about a person they call moschiach, usually translated as "messiah; others within traditional rabbinic Judaism believe in the coming of a future messianic era. However, traditional rabbinic Judaism is never called "messianic Judaism". That term is used only for the Christian groups, or the quasi-Christian groups. RK 01:23, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)