Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:47, 12 December 2003

The German Misplaced Pages uses a system whereby brilliant prose pages are first added to a page called Misplaced Pages:Brilliant prose candidates, where people are requested to comment on the listed articles, similar to Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion, or Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship. Only if a nearly unanimous consensus is reached is the article actually added to Misplaced Pages:Brilliant prose. I think this is a better solution than what we have now, because it keeps interest in the page alive, and people are actually encouraged to review the articles that are listed. It would also allow authors to list their own articles. What do you folks think? If there are no objections, I'll set this up. --Eloquence 20:12 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

good idea -- Tarquin 20:20 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Yes, good idea. But I don't think people should nominate their own articles. --KF 20:23 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Well, we could technically allow it, but note that some people object to such nominations on principle. --Eloquence 20:24 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I immediately thought "good idea", and exactly because it would allow people to nominate their own articles. I've got a couple that I feel are bordering on brilliant, but I'd certainly feel entirely wrong adding them directly to the "Brilliant prose" page. And they're kind of off the beaten track, so not many people see them to get the idea in their heads that maybe it should be placed here. With such a page/process, I could at least see if other people agree, and it does belong here, or if I'm just completely full of myself. ;) -- John Owens 22:02 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps a subsection of "Current nominations" for self-nominations, which have to be seconded, instead of just allowed by default after a week? -- John Owens 22:05 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I do think there should be some indication that something has been self-nominated. Otherwise, sooner or later, someone might come along, see something that's been nominated for a week, and move it over to "Brilliant prose" without realizing it's self-nominated. Should we just annotate it in the nomination, something like (if Eloquence had worked long and hard on same-sex marriage, which he hasn't):

• Same-sex marriage and linked pages - seems fairly complete and accurate to me. Self-nomination. -- Eloquence 22:56 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

for example. Or, my above idea of a separate subsection. -- John Owens 23:03 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

P.S. Should we take this discussion over to the as-yet nonexistent Misplaced Pages talk:Brilliant prose candidates now? -- John Owens 23:09 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think it'd be nice to have newly accepted brilliant prose articles on the main page. Thoughts? Martin 09:45 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I like that idea. In addition and even better might be to have the nominees page linked of the main page, because that would increase traffic to those pages and also increase outside input on the brilliance of the articles, and so might be regarded as an especially valid sort of vote or evaluation. Plus, I imagine that it would help recruit people to the project, since every pop-up advertizer knows that people like to vote, and I imagine voting has a lower psychological threshold than clicking "edit" when you haven't explicitly been invited to and when the text can be perceived as "belonging" to someone else. Plus since the act of voting involves the same software functions as editing, new visitors would learn how to edit in the process.168... 21:25, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I find it xuriously straneg taht no-pne has nominated themselves for the honosr of veing lesetd here. Must hqvwe an extremely humple bunch of contributors. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 23:27 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There...the page now has a self-nomination! I hereby forfeit any sense of humility I may (or may not) have had :)Adam Bishop 03:35 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are a (small) number of pages -- backwaters, mainly -- on which I've been the main contributor, that I think -- if not quite brilliant -- actually pretty OK. I won't nominate them and, being something of a sporadic and solo contributor, don't know anyone who would be prepared to second such a self nomination. So I'm here to shill for one. Regulars: please glace at, say, Bob Dylan, Gram Parsons, Neil Young or Miles Davis. If you like them, could you add them to the real list of nominations, or inform me you'd be willing to second them. Cheers -- GWO

Hell, I'll second Bob Dylan. And though it smacks of tit-for-tat, you might take a look at Race (it's already nominated). JDG 20:59, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This page has been up and running for a month or three now so I thought a quick review was in order. Basic conclusion: I think it is a good idea working pretty well. The only slight problem I can see is that if a) someone is present on WP and b) is knowledgeable about a subject, then they have probably contributed to the article on that subject. This appears to be leading to pages being listed on this page for way over the original mooted period of 1 week - perhaps people are afraid to second because they are trapped through lack of knowledge or being contributor. I see at least two possible improvements to the process -

1) (not radical) Add a line to the preamble saying "It is not essential for you to fact check an article to second it. If you read an article and it reads very well and think you've learnt something then go ahead and second it. This is especially true of an article which has had plenty of contributors and discussion"... or something along those lines.

2) (more radical) When an article is up for BP-hood, we (somehow) contact an external expert on the subject in question and ask for their comments. This may be a sneaky way of bringing experts to the WP table. We might not do this in every case, as obviously it requires someone to find out who to contact and how to contact that them, but it may create a win-win situation in some cases.

Pete 08:46, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I prefer the second course of action and have in fact been thinking about doing just that in some cases. Brilliant prose should be our approval mechanism so we should aim at high standards, IMHO.—Eloquence 09:43, Oct 9, 2003 (UTC)

(I am withdrawing Non-Indo-European roots. . . until I can find out a bit more about the substance of the claimed inaccuracy. I am preserving the comments from this self-nom here.)

• Non-Indo-European roots of Germanic languages - I had a bit of fun writing this one. It comes across rather well despite being written in a modified form of constrained writing, except for the proper nouns. -- Smerdis of Tlön
  • That is very interesting...I always wondered why a lot of Pokorny's IE roots didn't go any farther back than Proto-Germanic. Adam Bishop 00:17, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
  • I would like to add my vote in favor -- An enlightening and very well-written piece! Polaris999
    • Oppose strenously on the present form of the article. The only factual point on which I can claim any knowledge on (derivation of "king"), was at best seriously misrepresented. The article may attain BrilliantProsehood, but it isn't there yet. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 18:48, Sep 9, 2003 (EDT)

I have always been puzzled why the threshold for brilliant prose is so low. I don't know of any other "candidates" or "proposed" page in Misplaced Pages where items automatically get approved if no action is taken. It takes majority votes to get a page deleted, a page undeleted or an admin promoted, so why is brilliant prose done the opposite way? At the very least, it should be called Prose with no objections or Unobjectionable prose, as not every item has been positively voted brilliant. Shouldn't this process change to better reflect 1) how other things are done in Misplaced Pages and 2) the title brilliant? Fuzheado 05:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think the current process is very fair. If you think the article nominated is not brilliant, then you can rise an objection. The reasons of objection include not only NPOV problems but also the poor quality or the lack of coverage. But I agree with that brilliant might imply that writing is brilliant rather than the overall quality of the article. -- Taku 08:27, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)

I would argue it's beyond fair -- it's too generous. It starts with the assumption the article proposed is brilliant (which in Misplaced Pages is ill advised) and requires people to not only notice it's been listed, but to disprove it in a seven days period. The value of a list like BP is its exclusivity, but perhaps uses too inclusive a process. Fuzheado 09:15, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Not long ago there was no candidates page at all. The BP page was open to all... so things are more professional/rigourous (or to put it another way less 'wiki') than they used to be. I outlined part of the problem about having a more rigourous approach. _If_ someone has a deep interest/knowledge of a subject then they have probably already contributed to the article, and thus can't readily act as a validator for an article.

I quite like that this page has a name with quite a lyrical flourish. Calling it 'Particularly good articles' or something just wouldn't be the same. Pete 09:25, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

How long does a proposal with objections stay in this page? We have things here from October 5!! Muriel Victoria 10:28, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't think anyone knows how long they should stay - which is why nobody is removing them. Also, it seems to me that brilliant prose candidates is ignored by a huge number of wikipedians. Don't know why though. Anyway, IMHO it should be fine removing nominations with objections that are listed for more than a month. (But also make sure the point that was being objected to hasn't been fixed.) --snoyes 16:25, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Actually it would be best to put them in an archive. People can later use that as a way to find and fix articles that are almost brilliant prose. --mav 21:46, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I created a kindof archive for the "addition log" and the "objected log". But the page still looks messy. That's perhaps why people dont visit much... Muriel Victoria 10:45, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

i hate to be a burden...

I see Misplaced Pages:Brilliant prose as our best foot forward. I like to imagine that a newcomer or skeptic could take a look at any article on Brilliant prose and be wowed. A member of the media could be sent there to poke around and be thoroughly impressed. This candidates-system was initiated in June of 2003 and has helped improve the Brilliant prose page.

The problem is there were already over 100 articles on Brilliant prose before the candidates-system was put into practice. And to be honest, some of them really shouldn't be there. For example, in their current states, for one reason or another, I would vote against any of the following articles from graduating to Brilliant prose: Geologic ages, Secure computing, Film theory, Three Colors: Blue, Freestyle music, Propaganda, Book of Mormon, Montreal Canadiens, Summer Olympic Games, Nude celebrities on the Internet, Political correctness, Sheepshead, Spacecraft propulsion, WikiProject U.S. States. These articles and others on Brilliant prose suffer from quirky formatting, mediocre writing, or sloppy editing - not our best foot forward.

I propose we create a process whereby each and every article that was on Brilliant prose prior to the candidates-system gets scrutinized, edited, and confirmed or denied. Kingturtle 11:45, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• I agree with Kingturtle. I was thinking of nominating Geologic ages out already. I propose a List of Articles in BP (the ones previous to the candidate system) on which everybody can vote KEEP/REMOVE. After say, a month, we can "refresh" the BP page. Muriel Victoria 11:48, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• I third the suggestion. Tannin 12:30, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• Hear hear, definitely overdue. We should start by laying down what type of majority/consensus is needed. Fuzheado 12:58, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• Yup, I considered this when setting up the system, but wanted to see if it works first. It's definitely a good idea now.—Eloquence 17:05, Nov 30, 2003 (UTC)

• Yes, please. Many of these articles stood out in Misplaced Pages's first year, but they just don't cut it now. -- Stephen Gilbert 09:28, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• • It is quite interesting how what was brilliant 18 months ago isn't so brilliant anymore. It's like looking at the special effects in Star Wars, and saying to myself "THOSE were great special effects?!" Kingturtle 09:59, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm going to prepare the voting page... Muriel Victoria 13:24, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Voting now in:

• Misplaced Pages:Refreshing brilliant prose - People and culture
• Misplaced Pages:Refreshing brilliant prose - History and religion
• Misplaced Pages:Refreshing brilliant prose - Others
• Misplaced Pages:Refreshing brilliant prose - Science

Well I can't argue with having an audit now and then... just wondering if the voting format is quite right.. a couple of things to consider: "articles with no votes will be considered boring and removed" - this might be a bit harsh - there are lots of things to vote on - we don't know how many people are going to take the time to make a judgement on them thus a voteless article may not be boring. Any thoughts? Secondly can major contributors vote on their own article(s). Pete/Pcb21 21:30, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I should add that our general rule is that we don't vote on these matters, we need consensus. If there's only one person arguing to remove an article from BP, that should be enough to do so, and their concerns should be addressed if at all possible (i.e. if doing so would not violate our policies).—Eloquence 21:59, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

Strongly agree. Is it too late to change what is going to happen as a result of this vote? Proposed new resolution: All articles with any "not brilliant votes" are going to be brought to this candidate page for evaluation in the usual way. Possible variant: All articles with any "not brilliant votes" or no votes at all brought here. We these proposed new resolutions rules it is reasonable to suggest/insist people don't vote on their 'own' articles. With the current resolution I don't think it is reasonable.

Finally on a point of procedure (groan from the audience!)- the time taken from the first mention of a 'purge' to the vote being enacted was 26 hours. This is a bit short before deciding any issue needs a vote... anyone who took one day (shock! horror!) (in this case a Sunday!) off Misplaced Pages didn't get their chance to stick their oar in before a month-long vote was instigated. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 23:24, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC) P.S. Sorry Muriel I didn't mean this to detract from the effort you made in put together some well-organised vote pages... just I arrived to the party a bit late! Pete/Pcb21 (talk)

It didnt give loads of work, so dont worry. Anyway, i dont have any very strong convictions about this. I only think that some articles should be removed. As for the voting pages, they are just voting pages. We can see what happens there and meanwhile discuss what are we going to do with the results. Muriel Victoria 09:08, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• Adenda: As for the harshness of the boring articles must go, that was mainly a joke to convince people to vote. But i actually think we must be severe in this matter. After all, the Brilliant prose page is what we are publicizing as our best: it must be our best. Muriel Victoria 09:13, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
  • Ok that's fair enough. With that point on board it looks like the "Possible variant" I outlined above seems to be the way to go as it would be compatible with both your and Eloquence's views here. Others can of course comment further as the month progresses! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 14:50, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• Having voted for/against a number of articles, I have just suddenly concluded that I should be doing no such thing. All the articles on these four voting pages should really just be moved to Misplaced Pages:Brilliant prose candidates and go through the regular nomination/seconding process with requests for nominators posted on Misplaced Pages:village pump. Also: is there any way to encourage people to second new candidates? Some of the candidates are not so new any more. Bmills 13:15, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Cleaning up Misplaced Pages:Brilliant prose candidates

I have decided to be bold.

Can I suggest a one-month cutoff for unseconded and disputed candidates?

I am about to post to Misplaced Pages:village pump asking for seconders.

Bmills 15:52, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

To clarify: one month limit is there already for disputed candidates, one week for undisputed. Only self-added articles currently need a seconder. I'd suggest that all articles should be seconded and that one week is not long enough to allow for objections. Bmills 16:15, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Review needed for

Digital Millennium Copyright Act was added on 3 March 2003 and has since been extensively reworked, with a portion removed from it and substantially expanded now residing at Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act (OCILLA). OCILLA tries a very tough job - to explain a complicated law and how to follow it in a way which normal people can understand. If it succeeds in that and as an article, it's a candidate for legal Brilliant Prose (as the primary author of the current revision, I'm not neutral). Jamesday 02:47, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)