Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
**California actually isn't that liberal outside of the bay area. Excluding politicians and Hollywood, the majority of the population supports conservative values. The gay marriage ban, 3 strikes laws, prop 187, have all been voted in by the people. Its only the politicians who come up with the crazy 'government should control your thermostat electronically' laws and legislative judges who create a government enforced class system. --] ] 03:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
**California actually isn't that liberal outside of the bay area. Excluding politicians and Hollywood, the majority of the population supports conservative values. The gay marriage ban, 3 strikes laws, prop 187, have all been voted in by the people. Its only the politicians who come up with the crazy 'government should control your thermostat electronically' laws and legislative judges who create a government enforced class system. --] ] 03:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
***You might want to avoid injecting subtle political rhetoric in your comments. Perhaps it was unintended, but this isn't really a place to make political points. —''']''' 04:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
***You might want to avoid injecting subtle political rhetoric in your comments. Perhaps it was unintended, but this isn't really a place to make political points. —''']''' 04:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
****You might want to avoid gay people in California. They might compliment on your 'perrty mouth'... --] ] 04:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Place new suggestions at the top under the appropriate date heading (create a new date header if necessary).
Remember Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper. There must be an existing encyclopedic article on Misplaced Pages regarding the subject.
Do not link to external news sites here. If the article has been appropriately updated it should speak for itself (Instead, consider adding those to the subject's article as references to improve the article).
Please use the following format for the candidate item:
Start the entry with a level 3 header, and then a dot point/bullet (type an asterisk)
Another person has continued the discussion --User's Name 12:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
And so on. When continuing the discussion please refrain from using dot points/bullets to allow the candidates to stand out from the discussion. Indent your comments for clarity.
Event has received national and international coverage. etc. etc.
That's terrific, but it's a state-only news, so Strong oppose. Now, to await the "California is large!" arguments. --PlasmaTwa201:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
California is larger than: Chad, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Lebanon, all of which have ITN stories. Further, there is currently a "Tornado kills 25" story on the front page, far less important in history and the news than this. --Falcorian01:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Further, the international coverage this has already received (Swedish radio an hour ago, BBC, etc.) makes it more significant than "Just one state". --Falcorian01:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
No, in the end it is only one state. California = state. California is one state, it is not a country, it does not have the same status as a country (IE It can't go to war). I never supported the tornado thing anyway. --PlasmaTwa201:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
It is in fact, despite your quip. It's been covered locally, nationally, and internationally. It's been covered by every California news source you care to name, CBS, NBC, ABC, the New York Times, Sveriges Radio, and the BBC. --Falcorian03:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
In the United States, marriage is determined by the states. So if you're hoping for an "America legalizes gay marriage" announcement, it ain't gonna happen. Of course, California's announcement doesn't have the punch that Massachusetts' had, but still...—Kurykh03:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Alot of things are covered internationally, doesn't mean they all matter. When someone explains how a law passed in a single state is internationally newsworthy without mentioning how big California is, maybe people from otusdie California will care. --PlasmaTwa203:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Considering the California Supreme court is actually considered conservative, and the state voted under 10 years ago to ban it, yes, it is surprising. --Falcorian03:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
California actually isn't that liberal outside of the bay area. Excluding politicians and Hollywood, the majority of the population supports conservative values. The gay marriage ban, 3 strikes laws, prop 187, have all been voted in by the people. Its only the politicians who come up with the crazy 'government should control your thermostat electronically' laws and legislative judges who create a government enforced class system. --Lemmey talk03:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
You might want to avoid injecting subtle political rhetoric in your comments. Perhaps it was unintended, but this isn't really a place to make political points. —Kurykh04:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Support, although should we mention that it's the first animal to be listed as endangered due to climate change ( or at least that's what the media is reporting)? Ixistant (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The ESA only takes into consideration the population in the US(Alaska) and Canada and therfore its listing does equate to a 'threat' to the bears existance in the wild worldwide. --Lemmey talk21:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll quote the page directly: "The Department of the Interior states that global warming should not be considered a cause or related to the reason that the polar bear was placed on the list." So oppose. Therequiembellishere (talk) 00:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Another try: The polar bear becomes the first animal listed under the U.S. Endangered Species Act due to the melting of Arctic sea ice.
There does not seem to be any disagreement that the melting of the Arctic sea ice is what has prompted this event. The thing that is disputed is whether the sea ice is melting because of human-caused global warming or something else. P.S. I'm in the midst of packing for a six-day trip right now, and probably will be offline completely in about 9 hours. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The IUCN listed the polar bear as threatened two years ago (citing global warming). Since the IUCN classification is what Misplaced Pages uses as conservation status, I'm guessing that the IUCN is more important than the ESA. I'll oppose or support depending on whether this is a case of US law catching up with an international organization or of US law itself having a major impact on the animal's habitat. Pruneau08:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose for now, there doesn't appear to be much (scientific) dispute that this is partially attributed to global warming, BUT this doesn't appear to be noteable either since, as per Pruneau and the article it was listed as threatened due to global warming by the IUCN, and the only apparent reason why it took so long in the US is because of the screwed up political situation there which is interesting but not noteable and in any case can't be sufficiently sumarised for ITN Nil Einne (talk) 11:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose as per above the bears were already listed as threatened earlier. Going from "threatened" to "threatened also according to the US ES Act" is not that big a change. Hobartimus (talk) 18:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. I am one of the biggest football fans you will find in America, but there is no way we should put up the UEFA Cup. I know it is a huge event, but the UEFA CL and Euro 2008 will be going up in the next two months. I don't think we should put up Europe's number two club tournament. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 16:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually as one of the only games called football involving primarily using the feet to move the ball, and a real ball, as opposed to some strange oval thing it is perhaps the only real game of football. Other pretenders don't even come close. However oppose for reasons given by Pruneua et al. Nil Einne (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Weak support if Rangers win as they will be the first Scots to do so (has Russia before? Probably). Lemmey, funny though your arguments against are, you surely can't be seriously using them to oppose. Oppose if ZSP win unless Russians haven't won before either. Blood Red Sandman17:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
My comments are rarely the deciding factor on such things though my voice is ususally concurret with guidelines. Whats worse voting for Gravel for a crazy reason or voting for the winner for a crazy reason? --Lemmey talk21:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. But the Champion's League next week should go up, it's the number one club tournament. Pruneau17:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose We can discuss this again for the Champions League, but the UEFA cup is not even the highest level club championship in Europe. Also, it was never even considered at WP:ITNSPORTSRandom8919:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok I just realized how this may seem to other people he was Emir from Jan 15-24, 2006 then his position as Emir was taken over by the current guy, however his title remained Emir, but he was called the Father Emir. He is considered a ruler of Kuwait, and what i personally consider a co-founder of modern Kuwait. He started the first Kuwaiti police academy and so on. His death is very saddening for Kuwaiti's all over the World. I believe this piece of news should be in the front page because it is International news, and it also puts to rest the rumors that are going around. In the past frequently rumors were spread about his death. This time its confirmed. Aalsaleh 17:15, 13 may 2008
I'm not saying he isn't important. Kuwait is a great ally and wonderful modern nation (except for the drivers). The people here just have a very strict policy on putting deaths in the ITN. Even Niel Armstrong would probally not be able to be listed. --Lemmey talk21:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I understand but this was a ruler of a nation! Aalsaleh 17:31, 13 may 2008
I suppose fair enough, I just personally thought it deserved a place there, being Kuwaiti myself or not, i felt that it had its place. However, you are correct in saying that he was Emir by title only. Lest not forget though, that he was a very high ranking member of kuwaits royal family.
Please prepare a wikified headline for use on ITN. If the Emir's article is well updated, with referenced info on the aftermaths, such as who inherits what title, any power struggles ... and maybe a bit about a state funeral attended by many high profile international figures, ...etc., we might have a valid ITN candidate. Where is the updated article? Please give us the wikilink. --PFHLai (talk) 04:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
At least six bombs exploded in the western Indian city of Jaipur, most within a few minutes of each other, killing at least 60 people and injuring around 100.
Strongly support I've just created an article here; Definately ITN worthy; but the article does not have enough information to be put up yet. --Natrajdr (talk) 20:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I support putting this up when the article is up to scratch: many casualties, prominent target, i.e. a significant terrorist attack. Aecis21:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd propose putting it up now as its not something that subjective or reversable like the Janauary Stock Market Downturn (where the markets actually finished up for the week). The quality of the article will improve as eyes are focused on it (which is why I created the blurb without the article in the first place). If its notable enough to go up, its notable enough to go up even with a stub class article. --Lemmey talk21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The purpose of ITN is to highly resonable quality articles updated about noteable current events for our readers, therefore a stub class article is NEVER good enough, regardless of how 'noteable' something is. ITN, as with the rest of the main page, is almost overwhelming intended to be for our readers, not our editors, and we are doing our readers a disservice by highlight crap for them to read Nil Einne (talk) 05:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Think we can get this put up? I'll go find one of the regular admins (maybe Tone) or go to AN if no one wanders along sometime soon. Random8919:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment people have long speculated that the peace would only last as long as the economy was good, anyone know how it is recently? --Lemmey talk13:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Better than it has been since the start of the Troubles, though I'm not sure this is the place to discuss that! :) --Setanta747 (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Then WP is not the place to say this may be the possible start of a fresh wave of violence. ITNs Concentrate on specific events, not patterns or waves.--Lemmey talk14:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I offended you Lemmey (as your use of the word "then" seems to suggest). I concede your point about prediction. However, I am new to this area of Misplaced Pages, and I put that in for the sake of possible notability: this is the first car bomb I can remember exploding in Northern Ireland for some time. I'm sure that if the news event gets accepted, it can undergo revised wording. --Setanta747 (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
No worries - I don't believe in being offended (or at least my tolerence for it is so high as to make it almost impsossible in any kind of conversation) The word 'then' only means that we can't talk about future trends without looking back at causes. Additonially there was a car bomb in Londoun last year by persons connected with the old IRA but nothing much came out of it.
That said I haven't seen any evidence that this bombing is directly linked to the IRA or neo IRA or anyone else. Sad to say it but in Baghdad there are still robbers, murders and serial killers, in NY gas lines do burst, cranes fall, and buildings explode. Planes in the US still crash for mechanical faults, or pilot error.
Even in post 9/11 world there are single non-terrorist events or even signle-violent-events caused by crazy lone gunmen. Though single events are notable and should be reported, not everything is connected and single events can't be billed as part of a trend. --Lemmey talk16:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately not, Aecis. I'm not sure where to put it, specifically. Possibly in the article about the village itself, in the PSNI article and/or the Chronology of the Northern Ireland Troubles article. Presumably it is required that a link to an article about the event or relating to the event, including a description of the event on that article's page, be included as part of this process..? --Setanta747 (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Not really. I don't think this would go up even if we had updated the criteria. Not taking anything away from the heroic things she did though. Random8919:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
It appears that the earthquake has killed more than 100 people. Combined with the Richter scale size, I think that makes it a significant earthquake. The article is substantial and up to scratch, and the item has been added to Portal:Current events. Support. Aecis12:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
PLEASE edit out the Richter reference - I despair of this every time an earthquake article is started. The current convention is the Moment magnitude scale - I would suggest "An earthquake (epicenter and affected area pictured) measuring magnitude 7.8 affects the Sichuan province..." This is already corrected in the article. Radagast (talk) 13:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Article needs updating and perhaps a little improvment with links to parties as I can't really figure out what their agendas are. Looking at their slogans everyone seems agreed that the important issue this year is "<blank> Serbia". --Lemmey talk22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
(1)'immense' is weseally (2) 'questions remain' when possible we should post definitive facts not general statements of uncertainty (3) provided there is no mugabe we can wait till final results before forming a blurb. --Lemmey talk04:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, one thing is obvious and we should note this - the ultra-nationalists "won" every election, and SRS was the largest party almost traditionally in Serbia. For the first time, Boris Tadic will lead the largest list, and this is also the greatest victory in the history of Serbian parlimentarism. SRS had 81 in the last election and Tadic 64. Now, the Radicals should have 76 and Tadic 103, which came a huge shock to all parties (and, of course, the public). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it's important to say "Kosovo declaration of independence" rather than "independence of Kosovo", since Serbia doesn't recognize the independence. Pruneau09:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I recommend removal of that part for several reasons. One of them being that Kosovo has unilaterally declared independence and has not been internationally recognized, while Serbia opposes its declaration of independence. Next to that, the actual forces that support recognition of independence of Kosovo will be the smallest in the parliament (13 seats). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I will agree, but only if you also include "after SAA signature". It dominated the election at least as much as Kosovo (and proved to be overdominant"). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
(dedented) I don't really have an opinion on the inclusion of Kosovo in the blurb, while it did have an affect on the election, the actual results seem to run completly counter to the expected impact. The seperation of Kososvo should have provided fuel for Serbia first parties, but the 'Greater Europe' partnership won out. My view is one or more of the following happened:
the Serbia first movement was fractured or not as strong as the earlier protests would have us believe. (Serbians vs Serbs)
Serbians blamed NATO (US+UK) for Kosovo Independence as opposed to 'Europe'
The Serbian people realized that a greater inclusion into Europe is the only way to move past their bad-guy image of Milosovech giving them more leverage in responsding to such events and generate more opprotunties economically (its the economy stupid).--Lemmey talk19:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
We should wait until we know who won as in who will form the government and who will form the opposition who will be Prime Minister of Serbia, not just 'who won the most seats' which is nice but not all that important to the big picture. Hobartimus (talk) 16:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"Belgium decides its not talking to France (i.e. diplomatic relations), blaming it for helping rebels to steal waffles during the lego my eggo campaign." Its a non-event in a larger more important event, the attack on the capital. --Lemmey talk22:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Support in theory. My problem here is that the blurb makes it seem that the main event is the cutting of diplomatic ties, while the bolded link is about the attack. Random8922:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Switzerland. I remember we had something similar to this a couple of months ago. Was it that one that took place in Atlanta? It seems somewhat minor for itn, (Are tornado outbreaks in Oklahoma even news anymore?) but it wouldn't bother me if it went up. If more happens tomorrow then maybe I'll change my opinion. --PlasmaTwa208:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
First, the Picher tornado has not been rated yet, and second the fujita scale is no longer used in the US. It would be an EF3 tornado, if rated that. How about this?-CWY2190(talk • contributions) 12:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The hardest hit areas were northeastern Oklahoma and southwestern Missouri. This was the area with the large deth tolls and hundreds of injuries. I think that this is the most important part of the overall tornado outbreak and is a national and even worldwide news story. Here is a revised version,
Why is the part about Pitcher unneccesary? If 20 blocks of a town is leveled dont you thinks that is important?--CPacker (talk) 21:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Not really. That makes it too long. Note how we didn't put "10,000 people from the delta twon of Bogale died" up with the Cyclone Nargis news. --PlasmaTwa221:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Ya because that is redudent information, it would be like saying 23 were killed overall and 9 from Picher. For a tornado to hit a populated place and destroy that much of a town is a really big deal this was the worst tornado damage in Oklahoma since 1999. --CPacker (talk) 21:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
It's pretty redundant to say a tornado destroyed a town in Oklahoma, don't you think? Don't forget, it is also a really small town. --PlasmaTwa222:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not redundant to mention it and 20 blocks is 20 blocks. 20 blocks in Picher is the same as 20 blocks in LA.--CPacker (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually it is pretty redundant to say that a tornado destroyed something. Cause, you know, usually tornadoes just clean up the streets and put the trash in the trash can... Besides, ten thousand people in Bogale is ten thousand people in Chicago --PlasmaTwa202:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The outbreak wasn't just in MO and OK. There were tornadoes reported in seven states last night from the system and today there have been tornadoes in five more. The article itself deals with a series of outbreaks over the past week. So to specify it to Missouri and Oklahoma is ridiculous. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 00:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The reason Oklahoma and Missouri were specifically mentioned was for the sole reason that that is where there were deaths. Outside these two states only 2 other people died, 1 in Georgia and 1 in North Carolina.--CPacker (talk) 02:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
An international relief operation begins after Cyclone Nargis strikes Burma, with at least 63,500 people reported killed or missing. Burmese military regime conducts a significant referendum days from the cyclone strike despite international appeals.
An update on the existing news item. I feel that the referendum is significant and will decide on the country's long term future. --Natrajdr (talk) 14:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Support update. The referendum in itself was already significant, but it's even more significant in view of the cyclone. I recommend something along the lines of: "The people of Burmavote on a draft constitution (note: unwikified article), days after Cyclone Nargis kills tens of thousands of people in the country." Aecis15:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
comment The British media is reporting a death toll of 200,000 thousand, and also the Burmese officials are hampering food supplies from reaching the area --Hadseys18:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
First it'd be give or take 145 and the british are reporting a death toll of two hundred thousand, im not gonna retract it because thats what i heard on tonights six thirty evening news --Hadseys22:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The 155 was taken from your user page, and has already been referred to once today. What you have failed to recognise, despite it having been pointed out three times, is that 200,000 thousand is 200,000,000, i.e. 1000 times more than you intended to indicate. What Lemmy has failed to realise is that wiki time stamps are not according to British Summer Time. Kevin McE (talk) 22:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Well 155 was taken from an educational psychologists report, which is reference in my userpage, if you would like to see it please email me. Although what my IQ is is really irrelevant, and what I meant is 200,000 individuals, because unlike this site I don't needlessly complicate things --Hadseys23:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
(dedent) I love how easy it is to sabotage or delay these blurbs by starting a needlessly long conversation. The longer and more indented it is the less likely for people to vote or for an admin to add. --Lemmey talk23:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Lemmey, you started out as one of the most annoying parts of my day and over the past few weeks, I've come to really look forward to your shinanigans (sp?). Keep up the good work, you've made a fan of me. -- Grant.Alpaugh02:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
No one said Summer time should only be during summer. My guess is the British are smarter then people from certain other countries and therefore they are not confused by the difference between summer time and summer Nil Einne (talk) 07:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Right... I'm sure we're not talking about these blokes. Smart? They all know what time it is only because there is a giant clock standing over them all the time. These are the people who brought us Big Brother, Idol, and TeleTubies? and went from ruling an entire world to barely ruling an entire island? Oh the sun never sets on the British Empire* (For legal purposes 'Britsh Empire' now refers to 23 Tedworth Square, between the hours of 9-4 provided its not too cloudy). --Lemmey talk14:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Considering its two items it seems a little word but justified. We can edit the hell out of it when we get some referendum results, just hope they don't pull a Mugabe --Lemmey talk02:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The other problem is it doesn't mention the fact that the referendum in the areas affected is delayed. The current wording suggests that people in the areas affected are expected to vote in the referendum which obviously isn't true. Yes, most people think they should be putting most of their efforts into trying to save their people rather then run a referendum but we still have to be careful how we word this Nil Einne (talk) 07:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
By this precedent, the passage of the articles of impeachment against Bill Clinton would not have been newsworthy enough had Misplaced Pages been around then. We're talking about organizing a vote of confidence against a national-level head of state. --Kitch14:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
There apparently was not much that happened because of it, and in the article it says there could be another bigger eruption. I don't really care either way, but I'd suggest waiting to see if there is a bigger eruption. --PlasmaTwa200:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
CommentFierce fighting is hardly right WP:NPOV word for what the article discribes as Armed clashes and what the article discribes as heavy street battles , suggest using Armed clashes Gnevin (talk) 17:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I support putting this up. A change of the head of government of a country is by definition notable, and imo doesn't need to be brought up here. Aecis10:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
No? He is well known in Europe and America as a the former PM, media magnate, and controversial public figure. It is of interest that he is once again in power. -Rrius (talk) 23:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a principled reason for your "no", or are the rest of us supposed to bow to your superior notion of what is noteworthy? Do you actually take this seriously? Your edit under the Mauritania entry suggests otherwise. Finally, Berlusconi has been sworn in four times: once was after a cabinet reshuffle in 2005. Nevermind. Your talk link directs to a Dilbert article; I'm not taking your contribution seriously.
After his cabinet re-shuffle in 2005, he and his cabinet had to be sworn in per the Italian system. I mentioned the fact because it was in the article I used as my source at Portal:Current events/2008 May 8. Nonetheless, I agree that it probably need not be noted. -Rrius (talk) 00:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Strong oppose. This is different to the change of power in Ireland and Russia. We already listed Berlusconi's victory when he won the elections. I see no reason of listing it again. On the other hand, we hadn't mentioned Cowen and Putin as PMs yet. Listing the result of every general election in the world is a fine precedent, but listing all the swearing-ins is something I have to disagree with. Let's avoid that precedent. Pruneau15:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Wait, then why do we have Medvedev's swearing in up? Why is it different in Russia...I remember when we posted that Medvedev was elected. I supported this because he was up. Spencer13:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Because Putin was also made Prime Minister? That's my guess. It was put up before all of this, kind of pointless to remove it now. --PlasmaTwa217:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
We are starting to set a dangerous precedent. We have a consensus to include all national elections. Fair enough, that makes sense. But once we start including elections and swearing ins or inaugurations, we start to run the risk of having too much election news on ITN, a frequent complaint. Besides, we all seem to have agreed to have the American presidential election included when the results are in (November), not later when Obama/McCain actually takes office. Why should we not apply the same standards to other nations? While I do admit there are times when the swearing in could be a major event (a disputed election, a extremely notable change in government (Russia), or a long time to form a government (Belgium) as a few examples) I don't think it should become par for the course. For those reasons, oppose. Random8918:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree. I don't think any of these swearings in (except maybe Russia) are notable. We include the election (or whatever selection method) when they happen, and have decided not to include the swearings in for quote some time. If consensus is changing, then that's fine (I don't think it should, but if there's consensus, so be it), then we have to make sure we're doing so uniformly. My point is that if we're including Berlusconi, we'd better include Obama/McCain, which people will certainly oppose as US bias. -- Grant.Alpaugh05:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with some of the above comments. When there has been an election, we mention the result/consequence at the election, not at the inauguration, because the relevant news event is the election victory, the inauguration is only a logical consequence of this. We should mention that Obama/Clinton/McCain wins the US presidential elections, but imo we shouldn't mention the subsequent inauguration. The only exception would be when there has not been an election prior to the inauguration, which means that we haven't been able to cover the event before. An example of this is Yahya Ould Ahmed El Waghef. Because we have already covered Berlusconi's election victory, mentioning that he has been inaugurated doesn't add anything. I therefore oppose putting this up. Aecis13:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. We have had several posts about the torch already. Even if it's on the Everest (first time for the torch, I suppose). --Tone14:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. This is hilarious, namely because they're trying to keep the torch moving while keeping it as far away from the general public as possible, but it's not terribly notable.--WaltCip (talk) 16:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment Actually it was planned for the torch to reach the summit of Everest a long time before the protests Nil Einne (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Strong support Just as noteable as the protests but should be the last time we have the torch barring anything extremely exceptional Nil Einne (talk) 16:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Neutral. I agree with parts of what Nil and Kevin have to say. Also, if somehow (which I don't think is gonna happen) we can find a free-use photo of the torch on everest, then I would support. Random8918:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose as per CWY - Represenatives come and go, they even get caught with $90K in their freezers. Now a Senior Senator, chairman of the Senate Arms services committe or family values committies, I'd think about it... --Lemmey talk17:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose for now. This news story in itself is not ITN-able. It would be another matter if Fossella were to resign over this, but in that case the significant development would be his resignation, not the scandal. Aecis18:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - Considering that the consensus regarding Eliot Spitzer appearing in ITN is still shaky, I can't imagine this holding any more weight.--WaltCip (talk) 20:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
It can't hurt to "bundle" the news of Coughlan if the story is already going up. Also, this was discussed and sort-of agreed to earlier I think. Random8901:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Support as per agreement. However: PMs that are selected are still not as important as Presidents that are elected (Unless you're Putin). --Lemmey talk15:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
That depends what country you are taking about. The elected president of Ireland, and of many other republics, is a largely ceremonial role, and political power rests with the prime minister who, although technically appointed, is effectively chosen asthe result of a general election. Kevin McE (talk) 16:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
If a Persident is cerimonial then why have an election? (Feel-Good-ocracy?) Any system that has the average people come together to pick a leader (regardless of divisioning into districts/ electorial colleges/ etc) is infinately more authoritative as an "of the people" democracy than one in which a handful of representitives meet in a back room to pick a leader that only lasts until smallest zealot faction breaks over an issue fewer than 10% of all voters even care about. Good Gov't must have execuative branches with leaders who ever so often do what is right as opposed to doing what is popular or what the party leadership wants. --Lemmey talk17:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Your opinion of what makes good government does not change the effective authority of elected officials. In the context of Irish politics, it is simply not true to say that the PM is not as important as the president. Kevin McE (talk) 18:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Presumably there are words in Russian for president and prime minister, but we do not use them. Is there a real justification for using an Irish language term in en.wikipedia? Kevin McE (talk) 18:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
A better answer is that Taoiseach is the term commonly used in English, at least within the Republic of Ireland. Taoiseach isn't simply the formal Irish language term; it's what is used on the evening news and in newspapers, as well as in everyday speech. NoIdeaNick (talk) 02:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Hold off for now Wait until the Russian Parliament confirms Putin as prime minister on May 8, then include both leaders' new positions in the ITN item. Nutmegger (talk) 23:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe we did, but then again, we did it for Australia. We put up Kevin Rudd winning the election, and then him being sworn in. If we can do it for Australia, and have three for the US, I don't think it is too much that we have two for another major worldwide power. If Putin becomes the Prime Minister tomorrow, I see no problem in holding this one up a day (Though if it takes longer then that we'll be missing the target on this one) --PlasmaTwa201:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Wait for Putin. The precedent of listing an election winner twice (when he wins and when he is sworn in) is not a good one. However, when Putin becomes PM, it should obviously go on ITN, and Medvedev could be mentioned at the same time. Pruneau08:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
What are you basing this on? As far as I'm aware, Clinton won in Indiana (albeit small), but what indication do you have that she will step down in the next day or two? 211.30.187.169 (talk) 06:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone actually read what is written before they reply anymore? I said this was still up in the air, and was trying to get wording together if it does happen. Also, at the time I wrote this, Indiana was still uncalled, and they were saying that it was likely Obama districts were the only ones still out, and even still the margin of victory in Indiana is so small that there will likely be a lot of pressure on Clinton to get out. Either way, it is still a "very real possibility" (the exact wording I used above) that within the next week or two she will shut her campaign down. I wanted to get the wording down in the event that this happens, and get the anti-US BS out of the way early so that we could get the blurb up closer to when this happens instead of a week later as we've been dealing with recently. -- Grant.Alpaugh07:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Because every country and every election is not equal. Arguing against the objective fact that the US Presidential election process is longer, more expensive, more covered, and more important than every other election in the world, to the point that it is in an entirely different category as a news item, is foolish, and, in my experience, comes from an anti-US bias in everyone who argues it. The Primaries alone cost more, last longer, and get more media coverage (domestic and international) than every general election in the world, especially this time. There is simply no objective reason why this shouldn't go up. -- Grant.Alpaugh08:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I keep saying this, but nobody ever listens, so I'll say it again. ITN is notnotnot a news service. The size of the story is irrelevant. Was Sark a big story? Were the oil paintings a big story? Are you seriously suggesting that people are going to come to Misplaced Pages ITN to learn who is winning the US elections? If anything big stories are actually less ITN-able, since everyone already knows about them and they therefore have less encylcopaedic value. To reiterate- almost everyone including you mistakenly thinks that ITN is a news service. We should forget about the encyclopaedia aspect and actually make it into one. Badgerpatrol (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
What do you not understand about media coverage = interest. If there is lots of international media coverage there is lots of international interest. If there is lots of international interest then the item goes on ITN. Its really that simple. -- Grant.Alpaugh16:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
For you to assume that people are coming to learn about Sark or oil paintings but not who will be the next leader of the free world, you're fucking bonkers, mate. Badger, we've had these arguments a million times before, and I don't want to have them all again, but you're views of what ITN is and what ITN should be are not mutually exclusive. You seem to think that because something is big, important, and gets a lot of coverage it shouldn't go on ITN, which is absolutely ridiculous. And for the record, IMHO, Sark and the oil paintings, shouldn't have gone up, and both of them were championed almost exclusively by you. -- Grant.Alpaugh14:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
6 people supported Sark (for which my support was weak) and 6 people supported the oil paintings, so you might want to go back and have another look at that, mate. As always, you're entire thinking is based around the precept that Misplaced Pages is a news service. It's not a news service, it's an encyclopaedia. If I want the news I will go to the BBC/CNN etc. or I will buy The Times/The Guardian/The New York Times. ITN is not a news service. The criterion states that the story should be of international interest. It says nothing about size and magnitude of the interest. Below you seem to bring up some kind of impartiality regulations for news organisations, as if they applied here- Misplaced Pages should certainly be NPOV but it is not a news organisation. ITN IS NOT A NEWS TICKER. I don't know how many times I have to say it. Clearly a lot more, since you, as a regular and dedicated contributor, still do not grasp it.
We desperately need to ditch ITN and start again. It is becoming a frustrating joke. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia foundation. Wikinews is a news service. With the best will in he world, why don't people "get" that distinction? Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you really mean to argue that there is not international interest in this race? I think it is pretty clear how wrong you are on that front, and I don't think I need to devote any more time to proving it. -- Grant.Alpaugh16:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
No Grant, you've missed the point completely. There's no point in continuing this discussion- you just don't see it. Badgerpatrol (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
As ITN currently exists, there is no objective reason not to include this item. You can argue for changes all you want, but this is not the place to do so. Please take all of your proposals for reinterpreting the criteria elsewhere, as this forum exists for discussing candidates withing the current criteria. -- Grant.Alpaugh17:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I did see that note, but why does it have to be now, though? In fact, I still oppose the wording, as the wording should have specifics of when and/or how the nomination was decided (e.g. "SenatorBarack Obama of Illinois secures the Democratic Party'snomination for the Presidency of the United States following his victory in the {{state}} primary election." or "Senator Barack Obama of Illinois secures the Democratic Party's nomination for the Presidency of the United States after Hillary Clinton concedes."). I seriously doubt that anyone will take anti-US bollocks in what is a story that has been followed world-wide. Titoxd08:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
First, no one is saying this should go up until it happens. That should go without saying, but aparently there was some confusion. Secondly, I put the blurb in the exact form of the McCain blurb, and I think it is more likely that this happens not as a result of a particular primary victory, but as a result of Clinton shutting the campaign down after some party insiders convince her to do so, so maybe it would be more appropriate to say something like "Hillary Clinton concedes the Democratic nomination to Barack Obama" or some variation thereof. Finally, you'd be suprised at what people will argue. -- Grant.Alpaugh08:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
We don't need one, because she won't win. The whole point is that she probably won't last through next week. -- Grant.Alpaugh14:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
No Rush unless Clinton drops out this can not happen until June, we've got a whole month here. I would support only if this statement was included "... He will face John McCain, the presumtive Republican nominee, in the gerenral election this fall."--Lemmey talk15:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Right, but I think that is now more likely to happen then for this to go all the way to the convention. As for including McCain, I don't think that is necessary, we already gave him his own blurb a few months ago. -- Grant.Alpaugh15:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a link to his blurb? It (should) have included 'He will face the winner of the Democratic Primary...' or something to that effect. Most broadcasters traditionally have had to give equal time on candidate news. If we're posting ITNs beyond the general-election results I think we should strive to keep any political blurbs balanced by either having offsetting blurbs up at the same time or having joint statements. --Lemmey talk15:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Look in the March archive toward the bottom. Not including him will give equal time to each candidate, as we didn't give Obama or Hillary part of his blurb. Either way I don't think we should include them for the reason above or becuase we don't have to do equal time (btw, the fairness doctrine has been discontinued during the Reagan presidency, which is how talk radio or Fox News is allowed to exist). Its legality was challenged in court. So we're not obligated to do so either. -- Grant.Alpaugh15:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Support when it happens I would definetely think that deciding the next President of the US is encyclopedic. However, I do think that Grant's arguement is a very Pro-US arguement. This sin't the only news in the world, and it sure as hell isn't the most important to about 5 billion + people. Even if the US election is the biggest and whatnot, I'm pretty sure an election in India matter to about, 700 million more people. I've said it before, but the only thing that truely matters is the actual vote for the next president. And jsut to make it clear, as we had discussed during the whole incident with the Romney (Or was it Huckabee...) when he dropped out: This is the LAST US Presidental election blurb to go up until the election. No convention crap. No "Obama made Clinton his running mate". This is the LAST until we put up "Obama/McCain wins the 2008 United States Presidental Election. --PlasmaTwa218:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, unless something unexpected happens, that's fine. Also, let me make clear I'm not arguing that this is the biggest story in the news. I'm saying that denying that this is an international news story is silly. There are tens of thousands of foreign correspondants covering this race, and headlines in newspapers all over the world (maybe not the top story, mind you, but certainly front page in a lot of places) will be about the Democratic nomination whenever it is finalized. I don't think there's another non-general election that can draw that kind of attention, and that is what we use on ITN as a criteria. If an item is of significant international interest or importance, we put it up. This surely qualifies on at least one of those counts. -- Grant.Alpaugh18:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
...urgh...of course this is a story of onternational interest and importance. The point is that the ITN criteria are so broad as to be virtually useless, so we either select stories that are encyclopaedic (i.e. have educational value, which this obviously doesn't) or we maintain a system of "common law" precedent to make the ITN criteria actually mean something. France has a full presidential system similar to America's, had a female candidate similar to the American election (an actual female candidate, not a candidate-to-be-a-candidate) and that whole election manifestly generated huge amounts of international interest - of course not as much as this, but for the umpttenth time the size of the story does not matter. The French election went up precisely once I believe, when the result was announced. We either refine the currently absurd ITN rules with precedents that we stick to, or we get rid of the currently absurd ITN rules. This-is-not-a-news-ticker. Badgerpatrol (talk) 20:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Just because something is not esoteric doesn't mean it can't be educational. I think it is clear that your interpretation of ITN is flawed. We don't care what you think should be of international interest, we care about what is of international interest. Beyond that you've lost the plot. Also, it should be noted that there is a prescription of "small news stories" (ie the change in official loyalty in Sark) from being on ITN. This story is ITNable because it is of such international interest. Period. That is the only thing that matters, and it is an objective fact that there is international interest in this story. -- Grant.Alpaugh21:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there weren't any American correspondants covering the French candidate selection process. While that doesn't immediately discount that story's significance the fact that there are correspondants covering this story from Britain, France, Germany, Spain, and all over the world does prove this item's international interest. This story (and any other ITN item) should be on ITN because there is a lot of international interest in it. -- Grant.Alpaugh21:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
...you're wrong. Of course there were American correspondents covering the French candidate selection process, as well as from every other major country in the world. But by essentially stating that stories are only significant if they are of significance to Americans, you're not only making yourself look very silly, but adding fuel to the seemingly never-ending US-bias fire. I think it is quite clear to an objective observer that there is genuinely no anti-US bias on ITN - but with respect Grant, people are going to read comments like yours and wonder if ITN = "in the American news". (having said that, I have also made myself look a total muppet by checking the suggestions' pages for the relevant times rather than the template itself, so we're about even on that score- see mea culpa below). Badgerpatrol (talk) 01:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you even bother to read what you're replying to? From above: "While that doesn't immediately discount that story's significance the fact that there are correspondants covering this story from Britain, France, Germany, Spain, and all over the world does prove this item's international interest." Nowhere in that did I say that because no one in America covered the story it doesn't make it international news. In fact I said just the opposite. Also, if you believe that there was coverage in the US of the French presidential election, Badger, you are sorely mistaken. We cared more about the fact that Sarkozy's new wife was nude in a picture than the election. On the contrary, Iowa was on the main page of the BBC, Sky, and half a dozen international sites (I know because I was arguing for its inclusion on ITN), as was McCain winning the Republican nomination. So to say that there is the same level of international interest in both events is silly. -- Grant.Alpaugh03:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
..oh God, I hate to be rude but it's like talking to a brick wall. You clearly implied above that the lack of American coverage should be a significant factor in the selection of ITN stories, vis a vis the French vs US election process. I invite anyone to read your comment above and draw their own conclusions. However, of course there is more international interest in the US presidential elections! No-one is denying that. The point is that the level of international interest is not a particularly relevant factor.(and btw, possible American myopia aside, there were plenty of articles on the French election in the US media, at least in the NYT, which I read on a daily basis). Badgerpatrol (talk) 04:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
First, page 4 articles in the NYT that are direct copies of the AP wire reports and front page headlines in tons of newspapers and segements at least each week if not each night on British newscasts are more oranges and orangatangs than they are apples and oranges. Second, I did not under any circumstances suggest that unless something matters to the US, it doesn't belong on ITN. Far from it. But as someone who consumes a lot of news each day, if I don't catch even a wiff of a story, chances are its not a massive story. Its an imperfect measure, but not one that is totally off base. Third, you seem to think that ITN should have some esoteric, educational spin to it, which I think is exactly what "Did you Know?" is for. Perhaps your time would better be spent there. Finally, your comments about what ITN should be are misplaced here. This forum is a discussion place for items using the current criteria, and everyone else seems to agree that if/when this story happens it should go up. I wish you the best of luck in changing the criteria, but until you do, please leave your comments elsewhere. -- Grant.Alpaugh04:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually we put up the French elections twice. Once when whatever her name was was selected as the first female candidate for a major political party (or something like that). Nil Einne (talk) 20:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
You're right, Royal was put up on the template when her nomination was confirmed, although without any discussion or nomination on the candidate's page, which was what I checked. More importantly, no-one objected to it for several days, despite the lack of a nom, suggesting that it was recognised as valid. I rescind my previous comment and I support this going up, since both candidates are notable per precedent (as the first female and the first black man). Sarkozy does not seem to have gone up at the time... Badgerpatrol (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mention the fact that Obama is the first African-American/black candidate for a major political party in the US? This has garnered a lot of interested (ditto if Clinton comes back against the odds and becomes the first female candidate) and IMHO justifies mention of this beyond a doubt Nil Einne (talk) 20:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
That would make the blurb a little too long, I think. That's more of a "Hey, did you know..." thing then anything else... --PlasmaTwa201:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, I think it's more notable then the selection of a candidate itself. The reason why it's noteable is because he's/she's will be the first one to have a resonable chance of winning, the previous ones are to some extent considered more of a technicality I think but since there have been previous ones, we can't simply say first black candidate. BTW here's how we worded it with Royal Nil Einne (talk) 06:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Support when it happens (of course). I think Grant's wording parallels the wording used for McCain. Also, I would consider including "first black candidate" or "first female candidate". Random8901:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Hillary is still campaigning and still appears to be campaigning. I suggest we wait until an official annoucement, if any, yet. Spencer00:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
May 04
Big Volcano 2008
Chilean volcano erupts for first time in over 2000 years, leaves 1 dead, forces evacuation of over 4000 people.
A sudden high wave believed to be as high as 16 feet crashed into a bulwark near a western coastal beach in South Korea, leaving at least seven people dead and 12 others injured.
Aricle is updated, could use expansion on a section of wave dangers, I'll put a request on the discussion page. --Lemmey talk21:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe you wrote that, :Plasma . I have to say this is not the first time I find you argument for supporting or opposing an item to be bizarre at the least and I find several of your comments to be US-centric. Furthermore, the preamble to the constitution is a sentence. Wave attacks are deadly events with massive international media coverage. Anyway, several deaths due to a big wave is definitely notable. --Lemmey talk03:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, all my comments are Canadian-centric. It's pretty much US Jr., so maybe that's why you're confused. --PlasmaTwa204:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Leave the models but please take back your singers, we don't need niel young hanging around anyhow. --Lemmey talk04:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Neil Young is waaaay better than Lynyrd Skynyrd. But I would also like to see an article or at least a section about the event. Oppose. Random8906:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah people go around singing Buffalo Soldier at football games, right... Neil Young is the emo kid of the hippie movement. Wow, that last sentence is almost an axis of evil, just need to work in the NYTimes, and the whole state of Micigan.--Lemmey talk15:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I love Neil Young, Lemmy. This is yet more evidence that you are clearly my arch Wiki-nemesis, the anti-badger, not unlike Bruce Willis in that film and that other geezer in the wheelchair. Badgerpatrol (talk) 15:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Worst comic-book movie ever. 10 minutes of fight scenes and 2 hours of emotion I'm supposed to feel for these lame characters?. Its like watching striptease without the nudity. --Lemmey talk16:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry, no-one pays a blind bit of notice to anything we say on here anyway, so I don't think he's disrupting anything ;-) Badgerpatrol (talk) 20:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment I see nothing to indicate this incident was unduly noteable. It's not even clear ho unusual it is. However I see ample evidence that the Cyclone was noteable, at least outside the US. Also as others have pointed out, there is still far from a sufficient update. If this was WP:POINT then it failed. Nil Einne (talk) 01:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
You should put your cyclone comment there, but I'll refute that it isn't notable in the US. It's been front pages news on most of the newspapers where I am and one of the first news items (the primaries always go first). Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
More dead Burmans? How is that notable? Were there any Americans or notable people killed? (And yes I mean that to sound exactly as bad as it does, it won't be on the news here unless an American is killed) --Lemmey talk17:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe you wrote that, Lemmey. I have to say this is not the first time I find you argument for supporting or opposing an item to be bizarre at the least and I find several of your comments to be US-centric. Furthermore, even though not Americans died as far as I can tell, there is massive international media coverage of this event (over 1000 hits on Google News). Anyway, several hundreds of deaths due to a category 4 cyclone is definitely notable. Support. Pruneau18:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I haven't stated a position on the ITN yet. My point is I'm not going to hear about this on televison unless someone is mentioning its possible impact on rice prices. People die, its sad, but thats what people do. How notable is a storm that causes 351 deaths in a country of 55million with an average density of 75/km. Did the storm only become notable when it killed people? How many deaths does it take to become notable? --Lemmey talk18:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Grano salis, perhaps, Pruneau? It really doesn't take a doctor to suggest that there may have been some US bias in that comment, but I'm sure that the effect it had on you wasn't intended. And on that note, anyone here willing to associate this with global warming yet?--WaltCip (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really sure if you meant that last bit sarcastically, but if you didn't, you may want to read the end of the Tropical cyclone#Global warming section. It is just not possible to identify a particular storm to changes in climate. Titoxd06:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
As the story is already listed I support the picture change. Its better than showing a non-winning candidate. Does anyone have a photo of HP mementor that no one approved to go up? --Lemmey talk04:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
As that comes from the military regime, that number is disputed by most news casts. While its in the thousands, no soruce other than the juntha is claiming that number. --Lemmey talk17:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Quote the article.
None of the casualty figures have been independently confirmed.
The BBC is not permitted to report from Burma, also known as Myanmar.
Any such numbers in the blurp should state 'According to goverment't officials.... ...This number has not been independently confirmed.'--Lemmey talk17:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The increase in the headline to 15,000 a few hours ago was indeed premature, and properly reverted, but the BBC and the Nargis both now stating 15,000, and BBC quoting Myanmar govt as stating that toll likely to increase. Please update headline accordingly. MrZ did it as I typed! Kevin McE (talk) 06:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Last article I saw of the 22000 deaths ~21600 came from the 1 delta region. Seems more plausable now but still a single state run media source (that everyone else is just quoting) would never be accepted for any other type of fact. --Lemmey talk16:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
This has been added anyway despite the fact that no-one wanted it and it has not been either addd or debated on the "Sports on ITN" listing. So much for consensus.Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Why in the world was this added? The candidacy was even withdrawn!
The leader of the biggest city in Europe is clearly of world interest, especially with two such colourful characters involved. --Philip Stevens (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This conversation was already had a few days ago (scroll down to find it) and the consensus was to not include it. Random8901:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
But I seem to remember New York mayor details being in the in the news section at the time? This is fairly big new news aswell due to London being the olympic city and thus Boris' actions will be scrutinised by the world media SouthEastLad (talk) 12:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
No, it was brought up as "London Mayoral Elections" (somewhere below). The local elections are quite different. SEL, can you find the diff of the New York Mayoral Election oing up on ITN? I would be interested to see that, if it's available. That would put an entirely different perspective on things. Badgerpatrol (talk) 12:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Yea it was so long ago that I missed it maybe a combined post of both could have made it through, "Labour suffers the worst defeat in 40 years in British local Elections, conservative Boris Johnson becomes the new mayor of London as a result". or similar. Hobartimus (talk) 13:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't see any indication there was ever any New York mayor elections & New York City mayoral election, 2005. Even the governor elections were only there briefly. Unless your referring to 2001 which is so long ago to be pointless. The selection of a new governor of New York state was on ITN but that's about a state not a city and primarily on ITN as he was the first black governor of New York and the fourth black governor in the US (he was also I believe the first legally blind governor of New York and the second in the US with the other one being more of a technicality I believe). And he took office after the previous one resigned amidst a scandal. It is in some ways closer to a new First Minister of Scotland/Wales/Nortern Ireland in the UK even though the UK is not a federation so they don't have states and new FMs are less surprising since the FM is not directly elected so it can happen any time the party or coalition with the majority loses confidence in the current leader or even 'naturally' as the result of succession Nil Einne (talk) 14:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Well maybe, we had both the scandal and the appointment of his replacement, but see above as to why it's not the same thing... Nil Einne (talk) 16:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
You can't seriously put Danica Patrick on the front page for over a week and then claim that mayoral elections in one of the world's most important cities do not deserve to be covered. Charles17:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
What's next, the mayoral elections of the top 50 most populous cities? And I thought someone was already sick of the elections appearing at the ITN. --HowardtheDuck17:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Support, largest city in Europe, and the win itself is representative of the success that the Tories had in the nationwide local elections. -- Naerii18:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Support, criteria for ITN suggests 4 - 7 items can be ITN and we're still only at 6. In any case it would be bad/pov if we thought that a change in political control of one of the world's most significant global cities was of less international interest than Indy car racing. Please let's get this in Tom (talk) 19:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
ITN is not a news service. It is an aspect of an encyclopaedia. Danica Patrick went up because she is the first female driver to win a major motor race (...or something like that). This (Johnson's election) is a big story (whether it's a big international story...much more dubious). But that is not relevant for the purposes of ITN. As noted above, it is only possible to support this story if the mayoral election results of many, many other cities goes up too (I probably wouldn't have supported either Spitzer's fall or his successor's emergence on ITN (and I realise that those are governors and not mayors, btw)). That is how it works at ITN- what goes up is down to the caprice of admins. But two wrongs don't make a right. I don't think this should go up- but I know that there will be severe debate and perhaps a change of precedent when e.g. the NY mayorality is next contested. That's not a dig- it's just a forecast. That is the nature of things. (To avoid this, what we should actually do is actually turn ITN into a news service, which is what most people currently think it is anyway. But that's a conversation for another time). Badgerpatrol (talk) 19:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi thanks for responding. It is possible to support without the results of many, many other cities going up because there aren't many, many cities which have international importance. Please see criteria at Wp:In the news section on the Main Page (it doesn't mention news service). Why can't we have 7 items? Control of London has changed for the first time in 8 years: dubious as to whether that has international importance or interest? Less dubious that Indy cars has international interest?! Happy to discuss Tom (talk) 21:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
That is an odd thing to say. I can think of several dozen cities that are undeniably of "international importance". I can think of at least a dozen or more that are arguably in the same league as London- Paris, New York, Tokyo, Los Angeles, Berlin, Cairo, Mexico City, Rio, Madrid, Rome, Beijing, Moscow, Vienna, Athens, Istanbul...(and the list goes on). All of these cities have elections and have mayors. ITN is not an election ticker.
As I stated explicitly above, and as re-iterated below, Danica Patrick was only put up because she is a female racing driver, not because she is a racing driver per se. (However, I do concede the general point that unsuitable stories often find their way on to ITN under the current system. But that does not mean that we should be deliberately putting up unsuitable stories.) There is not precedent for this, this election is not particularly notable any more than any other election, and it shouldn't go up. Badgerpatrol (talk) 08:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Danica Patrick was put up not because Indy car is interesting. Its one of the most boring sports out there provided your not the driver. She was put up because she was the first woman to win a race in a male dominated field, (not a lot of coed sports out there). A woman jockey winning the Kentucky Derby would go up as well. --Lemmey talk21:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
It shouldn't, since the horse is doing all the work... Now, if a hamster won the Kentucky Derby... Like before, I support this item. --PlasmaTwa222:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose, as I said before. There is no precedent for this, nor should there be. I would not expect to find the mayors of Paris, New York, Tokyo, Shanghai, Berlin, etc. on the main page either. To consider London a special case in this matter is not a good idea. Random8902:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. Where would we stop? The top 10 most populated cities? 30? 50? Would we add the election of leaders of American states and Chinese provinces? -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 05:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Local (=city, state) elections should only go up if they are notable for something other than the simple fact that they have occurred. The first black mayor, woman mayor, disabled mayor, gay mayor, of London- there would be a strong case. The first gay female black disabled driver to win the race to become Mayor of London- overwhelmingly notable. The first white upper class philandering Conservative to become Mayor of London- that's not notable. Badgerpatrol (talk) 09:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Or even better, if Boris Johnson was a Pakistani-Muslim, lesbian, deaf, blind, quadriplegic, veil-wearing transwoman little person Nil Einne (talk) 11:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Wait are you people insinuating that if the elected mayor of a large city is "special" or "unique" it can be added? --HowardtheDuck14:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, the first Korean astronaut went up for that reason. If a woman was elected mayor of Baghdad, it would be notable. I'm against tokenism, but hey thats what ITN is all about. --Lemmey talk19:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I see how things roll around here. I'll have to stand so, as you say, the first non-philandering and non upper class gay female black disabled driver can become Mayor and the office notable again :-) Tom (talk) 20:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes that would work for London. For San Francisco it would have to be the first white straight male lumberjack, hunter. --Lemmey talk20:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Over a month after voting takes place, the results of the 2008 Zimbabwean presidential elections are announced, with no candidate obtaining the 50% required to avoid a runoff. The opposition MDC party disputes the results.
Support w wording change to 'One month after' (avoids double after). Recommend no mention of either party as their opinions are not central to the fact at hand announcement of the election results and no candidate reaching 50% -> runoff --Lemmey talk19:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Support But no image. Pictures of one of the candidates won't work yet, and a map or flag is completely inappropriate for an election. Spencer23:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I was just thinking because plenty of people seem to want Mr. Lugo's picture off the main page. Morgan Tsvarangai wouldn't be completely innapropriate, as he did win the first round. (Morgan Tsvarangai, pictured, won 48% of the vote in the first round)Random8901:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The results aren't really official, and what if Mugabue wins the next round. I still hold that pictures are inappropriate in this situation. It's a slow news week, but the Lugo picture is still the most appropriate for ITN at this time. Spencer18:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Support It would be nice to have an explanation on why did they need a month to announce? Recounting, fear of the results? Hobartimus (talk) 07:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
How about 2 small pics side by side ? Someone needs to do the cropping (and/or stitching), though. The headline can get on MainPage first, I suppose. --PFHLai (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I nominate that we replace the picture of Lugo which has been used for 12 days with either of the candidates. At the moment, the placement of Lugo's picture is absurd and I think any accusations of bias in whatever is used are misplaced. Yorkshiresky (talk) 09:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
No. Local elections are not notable. This becomes notable only if it brings down the government or the Prime Minister. Neither are likely (in the short term anyway) and certainly neither has happened. When one or both happens then it can go up on ITN. No supportBadgerpatrol (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose Although this is undoubtabley hugely significant for the Labour party domestically, precedent is against it - local elections do not have enough international notability. Tx17777 (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Never been a fan of sponsored named sports events, I won't oppose as long as we don't call it the 888.com World Snooker Championship 2008. --Lemmey talk15:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Not sure about this at all. Nobody cares about snooker (excepting myself, who admittedly loves it and looks forward to the Crucible throughout the year. I am not a representative sample however). But there is a prototype list of ITN sporting events, and this isn't any where near the level of almost all the others on that list. Badgerpatrol (talk) 15:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
No, I love my snooker but it isn't remotely more globally popular that any of the sports currently on the list. However you've gone about it the right way and it can be discussed. Badgerpatrol (talk) 03:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
This is frustrating. You've got Lugo up there for 8 days. Relating to a newer story you've got a picture any news wire (or encyclopedia, for that matter) in the world would be proud of. And no-one is unrobotic enough to find a way to use it?
Maoists win a plurality of seats in the Nepalese Constituent Assembly election, the first election in Nepal in nine years (pictured, Maoist-controlled area, Nepal, 2005). 86.44.28.186 (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Representative pictures are inappropriate for ITN. It's a slow news week: I wish something could be done, but this image is too small at thumbnail size, and doesn't really show the subject. It just shows an area in the country. Spencer23:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What's thumbnail size? 100px? I guess it is too small at that. Shame. It's not representative in the sense you mean, it relates directly to the fact that elections have not been held in nine years, in which time Maoists variously attempted armed insurgency, took over areas with popular support, blockaded Kathmandu, etc. 86.44.28.186 (talk) 08:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
"HP Labs announces the creation of the memristor, the discovery promises to have a tremendous impact on computing and electronics, joining the other basic electronic elements the resistor, capacitor, and inductor." (Nature)
Tremendous discovery, it was first predicted in 1971 by Leon Chua of UC Berkley but had never been manufactored. It's a component that remembers it's previous state. It's like a variable resistor, and can store information like 1's or 0's due to it's resistance. It could possibly lead to computers having no boot up, and is a stored memory similar to the human brain.--Sparkygravity (talk) 00:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Weak oppose for once I partially agree with Lemmey (yes I know this is a shock). The article doesn't really explain the importance of this breakthrough. The only thing it really says it that it may be able to replace hard drives, but a lot of things may be able to replace hard drives. The big problem is none of them have come even close to the cost of hard drives yet. From what I can tell, this breakthrough may in fact be significant enough for ITN but unless the article properly explains that, then it should stay out. Readers should not be left scratching their heads wondering why they're reading about some strange thing Nil Einne (talk) 08:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This story is currently top billing on the Beeb's news website (home and international versions). A similar suggestion was made a while ago, seemed to have good consensus, but no admin seemed to take a fancy to it. This is a good story (albeit "task force" is a little overly dramatic, but that is how it's being described) with a decent article that is of significant global import but may not be directly obvious to those in the western world- so a nice encyclopaedic angle to it as well. Badgerpatrol (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - as the UN is only a collection of corrupt non-notable task forces, study panels and commisions. A report of plans to (possibly) create another bureaucracy is not a worthy ITN. The core event that caused it might be worthy of note, but the UN has never solved anything. --Lemmey talk18:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
haha- Lemmey, I always look forward to your balanced and well reasoned analysis. Your response, as they say, could have been seen from a mile off. You do brighten up the day ;-)
I'd rather focus on listing core events w[REDACTED] articls than looking for incidental actions. Is there anything in the guideline that would prevent us from making just a list of in the news topics similar to the Google news 'In The News' section? It would allow us to list recent ITN articles without having to wait for specific headlines. Recent Examples include : Sub Prime Mortgage Crisis, Oil and Gas Price Increases, Airline Mergers - Bankruptcies, Zimbabwe Presidential Election...--Lemmey talk21:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem there is that in the format we use, we can certainly link to any recently updated article, but we need a blurb to attach to it. Our inclusion criteria are based on the viability of the story from its hook, and only to a lesser extent on the notability of the article. We would need to change our format to have an "ongoing events" section like at Portal:Current Events, and I don't think thats a road we really want to take, as even if it was agreed upon to be needed in principle, we would still run into the same problems that face the (in my opinion far more important issue) death criteria.
Oppose per Lemmey. I like the idea of getting the world food crisis on ITN, but this is the wrong vehicle for it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this is a big story. I weakly support it going up, pending updated articles. It's not a great ITN story but it meets the criteria, imho. Badgerpatrol (talk) 05:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
What would the headline be? Something like:
Fourty-two year old AustrianElisabeth Fritzl is rescued after being held captive for 24 years by her father in his basement.
Support, this is the lead item on all the UK news channels, and although more than a little lurid is clearly of international interest. Yorkshiresky (talk) 17:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Strongly oppose This is a salacious news story of no encyclopedic interest. We shouldn't cover this any more than the latest antics from Britney Spears, Amy Winehouse, or now Miley Cyrus. It is also lends support to the allegations of anti-American bias here: if there were say a hypothetical story involving 400 children being seized by the state of Texas after (allegations of) rampant, systematic sexual abuse of young girls in a fundamentalist commune, there would be cries from all corners about "it's not international!" Why this then? It isn't encyclopedic, it isn't important, it isn't international, and it's not even on the Current Events portal. Case closed. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, given the lengths I went to get the deaths of two eminent minds of the 20th century covered on ITN to no avail despite strong consensus, if an item so trivial and unimportant as this gets promoted, I'll have to rethink my continued contributions here. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, because being headlines in Canada and the UK isn't international. Dare I say, that, since it doesn't seem to hav any news in the US, it isn't international? The difference between those deaths and this is that most people are acutally intesrested and aware of this. I did not see anything about the butterfly effect guy in the news. Nothing. International importance? Maybe. International interest. No way. Comparing this to a death - something we always argue about putting up - is just wasting breath, in my opinion. --PlasmaTwa221:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
You highlight the exact reason why this shouldn't be promoted - evaluating importance always usurps evaluating coverage. Election, space, awards, etc. that we regularly cover never appear on most front pages but that doesn't make them unimportant. I only see assertions of coverage, not importance in the above supports. Why? Because there is no importance to assert, it's just a story about a father kidnapping, raping, and fathering children with his daughter that has attained escape velocity from the local Austrian news cycle because of its lurid and sensationalist aspects. It will be forgotten by this time next week but for the precedent we set now that perhaps stories involving kidnapping, rape, incest, and combinations thereof might be included if the BBC, cable news, and newspapers in Toronto and Sydney take the space/time to include it. Everyone agrees that the number of Google hits, coverage BBC, IHT, AFP, NYTimes, etc. does not make it internationally important. The calculus for evaluating a nomination is on the criteria of promoting current events that are encyclopedicially notable and internationally important. Why then is this candidate being supported on that rejected criteria while notable deaths are not being promoted on an accepted criteria? Madcoverboy (talk) 21:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Somehow, I doubt this will be forgotten till after the woman makes a statement or something, since info on the case is still being revealed. It's kind of hypocritical, to me, to say that this will be forgotten a week from now, when the deaths of unknown scientists went pretty much forgotten worldwide. There is no way to accuratly judge importance. I support this due to the clear worldwide interest for the story. The fact that it is in the news in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver just shows that there is enough interest over here that it justifies being on the front page of the news. It is making news because people are interested and intrigued in this bizzare and severe case. --PlasmaTwa222:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Saying that this "will be forgotten by this time next week" is irrelevant crystal balling. But let's join the crystal balling. Is it really likely that it will be forgotten soon? I don't think so. The Natascha Kampusch kidnapping already looks set to trigger a parliamentary inquiry soon, this will only fuel the inquiry. It's sad to say that this does not stand on its own. This is growing to the level of the pedophile scandal that rocked Belgium in the mid 90s. This is not just another lurid story, I'm afraid there's a lot more to it. Aecis22:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Neutral Based on this event alone, and based on the relevant article updates, then i would lean towards yes, but as, with Madcoverboy, the whole precedent thing gets to me here. Random8921:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I would've supported if the picture of the guy was free use. Did anyone who saw this guy walking down the street not suspect him of being a psychopath? Random8923:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Neutral. "News" is what masses of people are interested in, not necessarily what we are interested in. Anyway I don't think it's ITN's role to decide what is news. Rather, it's to help people find more information on things that are in the news elsewhere. That said, I doubt there's much more we can say about this case other than what people are already reading in the newspaper or online. It's not like, say, the polygamists' case, where people can come to Misplaced Pages to find more information on the FLDS. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Madcoverboy, I think it would really behoove you to review the ITN criteria. It is only necessary that the item be of international importance or (notand) international interest. This story has been all over the news all over the world, and from what I can tell that makes it of international interest. The bottom line is that your recent struggles over the death criteria factor into this in absolutely no way, shape, or form. Though you'll be sorely missed, if something like this is going to cause you to leave the ITN/C page then I for one say "good riddance." Support. -- Grant.Alpaugh00:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I always thought that being displayed on the front page of newspapers was neither sufficient nor required for an item to go up on ITN. A week ago, every newspaper in the world was talking about Clinton's victory in Pennsylvania, but there is a consensus here not to list that. And on the other hand, I don't think the Nepalese elections and the Bamyan paintings didn't make the headlines, but we put them up nonetheless. Headlines are not necessarily an indicator of international significance. ITN is good when it gives background reading to Misplaced Pages visitors. Putting this up isn't going to give anyone more information: the article has nothing more than the information you find in any newspaper. I don't see how putting this up would improve Misplaced Pages, so oppose. Pruneau08:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
It certainly did in fact, and continues to (you may have been speaking tongue in cheek). Both Mwalcoff and Pruneau have made very valid and insightful comments about the nature of ITN and I agree with the jist of what they say above wholeheartedly (hence the weakness of my "weak support" above). Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Didn't on most of the city newspapers in Canada, though it was on the Globe & Mail... It's strange he says this won't help improve Misplaced Pages. How would putting up Clinton winning a state do otherwise? --PlasmaTwa218:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
So what if nothing happens for a couple more days nothing goes up for a week? Two weeks? There should be some standards for ITN for example one new story per/3 days minimum. Hobartimus (talk) 06:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose, with respect, a media circus. I hope the previous commenter didn't intend to say what I read. Did the Texas compound ever reach ITN? —SusanLesch (talk) 00:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
No. In retrospect it probably should have. If I recall correctly, it pretty much had consensus. Random8907:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, my bad, allow me to clarify...it doesn't really have international interest beyond a tabloid format and really doesn't affect current events. Spencer23:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
In the news toolbox
Grand Kartal Hotel in 2007
