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Revision as of 16:34, 25 June 2008

LGBTQ+ studies List‑class

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies List This article has been rated as List-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page.

Archives

Archive 1 (Sep 26, 2003 to Aug 30, 2006) Archive 2 (7 September 2006-10 May 2008 )

RfC

1) This has nothing to do with category tags. 2) I'd have no objection to restricting the page to people who self-identify as bisexual, provided that self-identification can be referenced to a reliable source, and provided that the page is moved to List of people self-identifying as bisexual. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with the page move, except that it also contains people who are deceased who did not self-identify as bisexual in life. I think that the deceased should be exempt from the self-identifying rule, but that the living should definetely be self-identifying. Perhaps we should split the list into two seperate ones, one for living people and one for the deceased. Asarelah (talk) 18:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

• RfC reply: Self-identified only, full stop. BLP considerarion, IMO, demands it for living, as well as for deceased for a period of time (I recall reading 123 years, but someone will need to confirm that from WP source). --Faith (talk) 14:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
• RfC reply: Self-identification is mandatory for living persons per WP:BLP. Given that bisexuality as an actual public lifestyle choice is a recent phenomenom, most people who died before around 1960 would not have declared themselves so, regardless of the truth. So, for dead persons WHO DID NOT MAKE A SELF-DECLARATION, the rule of inclusion should be documented, referenced proof of at least one voluntary, sexual relationship with persons of both genders. If a self-declaration is found, then that trumps. If conflicting self-declarations are made, the most recent one stands. Therefore, this list would not include two women who hung out a lot in a suspicious manner but were married to men. This also wouldn't included someone who simply had sex with persons of both genders, since many gay people have done that as a cover up, and straight people have done it to experiment, or out of protistution or other reasons other than actually having a bisexual identity. Therefore, Liza Minelli's first husband was gay (not bi), John Mayer is straight, and Frida Kahlo was bi. Also, a virgin who declares himself bisexual is bisexual. Sometimes self-declarations obviously contradict the truth (like the airport senator); in that case, leave the name off of this list - such conflicts can be discussed in the article on the person, but it is unfair to the persons and misleading to the reader to group such conflicted persons in with a list without the necessary commentary.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 03:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but what is the cutoff date for deceased people? How long does a person have to be dead for in order to be put on this list? Asarelah (talk) 20:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• This is really pretty cut and dried. If there is a source for the claim of bisexuality, it should go on the list, if there's no source it shouldn't. If all that can be found is speculation that a living person is bi, of course it should be left out per WP:BLP. Just a note that I am going to archive most of this page as it is unbearably long and cumbersome. Beeblbrox (talk) 20:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. All people included as being bisexual should have sources and contrary to some assertions above not all bisexual people self-identify or use that term, for instance men who have sex with men is used by some and these terms about a personal matter have changed over time. Regardless, sources should be used whenever applying non-mainstream sexuality labels and the project is better when items are well-sourced. If someone self-identifies then great, if not then reliable sources should be presented to satisfy reasonable concerns that we are labeling as someone as such so same-sex romantic relationships, etc. should be pretty obvious even if the person doesn't self-identify as bisexual. Banjeboi 01:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What if someone did those things but has actively stated that they reject the term and/or labels in general? Furthermore, plenty of homosexual people have had sexual relations with both genders often as a cover. I don't think that it is a good idea simply use having relations with both genders as the criteria. It should be self-identified only. Asarelah (talk) 17:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If by contemporary standards the person would be considered bisexual then a note of some sort should cover the situation. For those who are using bisexuality as a cover I would think a concensus should be sought on a case by case basis The lede could also be expanded a bit to emphasize those situations. I respectfully reject the self-identify only concept as impractical as we go by verifiability not truth, there are folks we know were/are bisexual but they are included until there is sourcing. If new sourcing contradicts that then that too can be relooked at on a case by case basis. If the criteria for inclusion were to change to self-identified only then the title of the article should reflect that and a second list of also bisexual but not self-identified would arguably be made and two lists would seem unhelpful in that regard.Banjeboi 01:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No. The biographies of living people rules state that sexual orientation must be on a self-identified basis. I don't understand what you mean by "contemporary standards" either. Who determines these "standards"? Furthermore, as for verifiability, who are we, as Misplaced Pages editors, to say that we have a better idea as to what a person's sexual orientation is than that person themselves? We could get sued! We must follow WP:BLP, as FaithF, Beeblbrox, and Esprit15d made clear. Living people must be self-identified. Period. Asarelah (talk) 17:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, had a bit of a typo there - I meant to say they are not included until there is sourcing. Banjeboi 00:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have to figure out on your own whether someone is gay, bi, or straight, you are engaging in original research. There is really no need to take this issue beyond Wiki policy on reliable sources. If there are sources, they're in, if not, they're not on the list. Beeblbrox (talk) 19:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

To answer you're statements, what we consider bisexual is not called the same by all cultures - note my earlier reference to men who have sex with men who don't readily identify as gay or bisexual but we might likely see them in that light. There are also cases of people who never discuss their sexuality or gender but others might, So if we have reliable sourcing then it's certainly worth considering. For living people we generally err on the side of caution but once several reliable sources have covered the material then we no longer have to tip-toe around what is verifiable. Generally I agree that it's best (and easiest) to have someone self-identify but that's not the only way someone's sexuality is found out. George Michael, for instance swore he wasn't gay until arrested in a (gay) tea room, he later outed himself officially. There are many instances of this happening and we should be open to that reality. I applaud good sourcing but still think self-identified only is a mistake and makes for a worse encyclopedia. Banjeboi 00:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It is irrelevant if we see Men who have sex with men as gay or bi. Our deciding to label them based on our conclusions constitutes original research. As for the case of George Michael, like I said, self-identified only. We would not allow him to be labeled as gay on here until he came out, and we will not label anyone bi until they themselves self-identify. Self-identified only is not a mistake, it is the OFFICIAL POLICY of Misplaced Pages. If you don't like that policy, go work to get it changed, but until that happens, we must follow that policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asarelah (talk • contribs) 01:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Outdent. Could you please point me directly to the policy that we only discuss someone's sexuality once they self-identify? Banjeboi 04:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

See WP:BLP. Discussing the sexuality of a subject is one thing, applying labels that they have not accepted for themselves is another. With all due respect, you are beating a dead horse here. Consensus regarding self-identification is already well-established. Asarelah (talk) 05:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually consensus, as far as I can tell, is to lean on reliable sourcing for such matters. WP:BLP refers to applying categories in regards to sexuality not whether the content can be used. Is there some other policy that might cover this? Banjeboi 20:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I meant consensus in this article, and no, I'm afraid nothing comes to mind. Perhaps if you tried the help desk or Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard regarding the issue you would find more information. I think this is an issue that ultimately comes down to the right of the individual to define themselves in their own terms, and I don't believe that it is appropriate for us to force labels on people who may not be willing to accept that label. We do not have the right to define other people in our terms. W:BLP says we should err on the side of caution, and I believe we must do so in this case. Asarelah (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I invite you to check out List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people which is an ongoing list project which I believe now has six lists at Featured status. The lede gives a decent explanation of why someone, say in another culture or time period may be considered gay or bisexual by our standards but they never identified as such or used those exact words. Also the people are listed if reliably sourced. Note that concensus is what creates policies and both concensus and policies can change. I think in this case the leaning on reliable sources is what will hold up. The main or possibly only exception is what a living person makes a stink enough that it is watered down or removed from the article for the time being, entire articles have been removed when some subjects have made it enough of an issue and, I believe, most of those were borderline notability cases. So, on WP:BLP we can include sexuality issues if reliably sourced but if the subject seems to objec t a consensus, on a case by case basis, can be worked out. Banjeboi 21:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't insist on self-identification for dead people, only the living. Furthermore, the whole point of having BLP rules is so that living people don't make a stink about it in the first place. I'd rather prevent potential problems to begin with than have to deal with them as they come back to bite us. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Asarelah (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the-better-safe-than-sorry sentiment except that we should not write for the exceptional cases. Our current policies can be followed and if, a living person objects then it can be dealt with. Obviously the material shouldn't be in an article if not reliably sourced but if a subject has an issue it isn't always realistic. If reliable sources cover the issue then we are covered. Also the self-identify only concept still rules out anyone who just doesn't like the label (or perhaps any label) or whose cultural perspective is to call it something else (like two-spirit and MSM). The way to prevent potential problems is to simply ensure the content is referenced. Banjeboi 00:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that is that there were a lot of references where the individual was married but later identified as gay, or merely stated that they thought sexuality was a spectrum, or had relations with both genders but expressly rejected the label of bi, and several other ambiguous things. Furthermore, it simply isn't fair to insist that an individual who identifies as two-spirit, or MSM, or whatever be identified as bisexual when they don't believe that the label applies to them. It would be as if the Hindi-language encyclopedia insisted on labeling all transwomen as Hijra (South Asia) based on their cultural paradigm, and ignoring the fact that the transwomen in question did not identify as a "third sex". To label two-spirits and the like as bisexual when they do not accept the label would be profoundly culturally disrespectful. Why shouldn't we rule out people who reject the label? It violates their rights and their basic human dignity to force a label on them when they have rejected it. Asarelah (talk) 17:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

We don't write an encyclopdia to allow for every label someone may prefer or dislike - if I prefer to be known simply as "black" but encyclopedically "African-American" is used then the article can state ____ prefers to label themself as "black" instead but both are used not to bow to the wishes of an article but to help the readers understand a subject. We are telling them a person is "African-American" but the subject prefers "black". Then the reader can make up their own mind what to do with the information. In the same way we often cover sexuality tha a person had intimate relations with both men and women but ____ never considered themself bisexual. This is per WP:NPOV, differing viewpoints can both be expressed giving due weight and remaining neutral. Again we rely on what reliable sources have to state. Banjeboi 19:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't been on lately, I've been very sick over past week or so. Anyway, I rather think that you are comparing apples to oranges here, as "black" is generally something that you can identify externally just by looking at the subject, whereas only the subject themselves would be able to really be able to label something as deeply personal as their own sexual orientation. Furthermore, even if this comparison were valid, where would that leave someone of 1/8th or 1/4 ancestry who did not even have black features? Just as the one-drop rule does not apply to ancestry, simply having had sexual relations with both genders does not automatically make you bisexual. Anyhow, I really think that we must simply agree to disagree here. Consensus has already been reached on the issue that living people on this list must be self-identified only. If you regard the interpretation of the BLP rules by myself and fellow editors as being to stringent and narrow, then I would suggest trying to get the BLP rules reworded, clarified, or changed through official channels, rather than trying to debate the issue here, as your interpretations wouldn't just affect this article, but several other articles as well. Asarelah (talk) 16:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Firstly being black is not a readily identifiable characteristic, there are many many people who are black but not "obviously" so. I also never suggested that just because someone sleeps with both men and women that we identify them as bisexual. In such a case, we could simply state the facts, they have slept with both men and women. Again, we lean on reliable sourcing, not our own inferences. Also, nowhere in WP:BLP does it state that people have to self-identify to be recognized as black or bisexual or anything else. It does say, however, "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references." You may be extrapolating about the use of article category tags which presently requires self-identification for BLP's. They are two different issues. Banjeboi 22:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that this is a list titled "List of bisexual people", not just "List of people who have had sexual encounters with both sexes". It expressly and explicitly identifies all the people on this list as "bisexual". I think that your idea that we should simply list anyone who has had sexual encounters with both sexes as bisexual until proven otherwise is very problematic, as experimentation among heterosexuals is increasingly common and it is also very common for people who are simply in denial about being gay to have sexual encounters with the opposite sex, not to mention the fact that more and more people are rejecting labels outright. Dealing with potential problems merely as they come up is a bit like laying what could be turn out be be minefield and then only dealing with the mines as someone steps on them. Splitting this list into a separate one titled "People who have had sexual encounters with both sexes" or something to that effect that does not involve explicit labels might prove an easier solution. Does that sound like a reasonable compromise? Asarelah (talk) 18:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ahem, I never suggested we list "anyone who has had sexual encounters with both sexes as bisexual". And I wouldn't support that concept either as it likely would violate policies already in place. I also don't support separate lists for those who self-identify verses others considered bi but there may be some merit to doing that. What I have stated, but will repeat, is that if reliable sourcing identifies them as bisexual then including them in a list of bisexual people is fine as it wouldn't violate policy. Banjeboi 23:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, my mistake, I misunderstood you. Anyway, I think that the only reliable source in this instance is the individual themselves. Plenty of media sources can and do identify someone as bisexual based on the fact that they have had experiences with both sexes, but if that individual never expressly states that they identify as bi, then I think it is mistake to list them as such. I remember Pete Burns and Dave Navarro being described as bisexual by otherwise fairly reliable media, but they ultimately rejected the label. Asarelah (talk) 03:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Again we'll have to agree to disagree then as even though a subject of a BLP is considered an expert on themselves[REDACTED] is not bound to ignore other reliable sources. In these case we would simple state _____ has labeled them bisexual but this is a label that ____ has rejected thus remaining NPOV and within our policies of RS and BLP. Banjeboi 04:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) I think that stating that X has labeled them bisexual but that Y has rejected is giving undue weight to X. Asarelah (talk) 20:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And I think you would be mistaken. WP:NPOV is about presenting what reliable sources state on a subject neutrally. Misplaced Pages isn't censored. If the New York Times states that Pete Burns is gay but Burns rejects the label then we remain neutral and report both. We don't write articles to please the wishes of those articles. For example, ___ doesn't like being called ___ so we won't mention it. We should however keep in mind the concerns of that person and ensure we're not placing undue weight on issues they have made clear through reliably sourced statements or OTRS communications. It's not our job though to write what the subject wants, it's our responsibility to write according to policies in place. Banjeboi 20:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

But if we place them under the list of "bisexual people" when they've rejected it, it is essentially labeling them "bisexual". It basically saying that John Doe is bisexual whether he likes it or not even though he does not accept the label. If you mentioned that they were labeled bi by a reliable source but have rejected the label in the article of the subject themselves it would be fine, but I think this a different situation all together. Asarelah (talk) 16:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ref List

There is something wrong with the ref list, it isn't displaying itself properly. Can someone fix it? Asarelah (talk) 23:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh good, its been fixed. Thank you. Asarelah (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• List-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles