Misplaced Pages:Bots/Noticeboard: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 03:33, 7 July 2008 view sourceAdultSwim (talk \| contribs)5,305 edits →Re-Block by Davidgothberg: word 10← Previous edit		Revision as of 03:41, 7 July 2008 view source Printer222 (talk \| contribs)1,939 edits →TinucherianBot: commentNext edit →
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	::::--] (]) 03:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)		::::--] (]) 03:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::::And the bot has not edited since 08:15, 4 July 2008. Please see word 10 of my statement above dated 02:44, 7 July 2008. (Here's a hint its 'previously') --] (]) 03:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)		:::::And the bot has not edited since 08:15, 4 July 2008. Please see word 10 of my statement above dated 02:44, 7 July 2008. (Here's a hint its 'previously') --] (]) 03:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
			:::::: Davidgothberg: I still think that you need to assume good faith. Assume that he has learnt from this mistake and that he endavours for it not to happen again. From what i can see you are assuming bad faith. This may not be your intention but this is how it comes accross. ] (]) 03:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 03:41, 7 July 2008

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Category:Misplaced Pages noticeboards

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This is a message board for coordinating and discussing bot-related issues on Misplaced Pages (also including other programs interacting with the mediawiki software). Although its target audience is bot owners, any user is welcome to leave a message or join the discussion here.

This is not the place for requests for bot approvals or requesting that tasks be done by a bot. It is also not the place for general questions about the mediawiki software (such as the use of templates, etc.), which have generally a best chance of being answered at WP:VPT.

Archives

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

RBAG Spam

	Chris is currently being considered for BAG membership. To view the discussion and voice your opinion, please visit click here.

Misplaced Pages:Bots/Status Updates

Some of you may know that I have spent my last months working on the bot status page. Well now I think my work is done. I have managed to:

Get rid of bad links
Fix links
Organize into categorys
Create templates
Taken the page from 75,846 bytes to 59,943 bytes (so far)
e.t.c

Now I need a hand from you the "bot owners" This pge has always needed updating and now it is allot easier(see the header at the top of the page explaining how to sue the template). This should cut the page size down even more making it easier to use and easier to load. It will also be allot tidier and also up to date.

All I am asking you to do is to go there and update your bots entry. If you have any questions about the template please ask me on my talk page or here. If you need to add a link to a request approval before the BRFA system then you just need to add it into the "Other Links" in the template. Again is you have any questions abotu that please ask me. I hope I have made myself clear. ·Add§hore· /_Cont 13:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Done, thanks for your help also :) — E ↗ 22:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Another point I would like to put in bold is, "don't just update them but put them in the template as well" :> ·Add§hore· /_Cont 06:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Just like to ask. As you can see on the page there is a link that shows all the new BRFA' using the special prefix page page. I think this takes out the need for other BRFA links on that page e.g. linking directly to the brfa unless they are not approved in the conventional way. Anyway tell me what you guys think :> ·Add§hore· /_Cont 06:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Category:Newsletter delivery bots

Since Newsletter delivery is one of the main BOT requests, I have made a new cats and added the known relavent BOTs. Feel free to add them. This will help people to contact the BOTs directly in the non-availablity of another known bot -- TinuCherian - 15:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. I've added mine. giggy _(:O) 09:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Why dont we categorize the commonly BOT requests like the above , Category:Wikiproject tagging bots etc and add them to a template and put it on BOT request page ? It does save time for people who make bot requests .. -- TinuCherian - 11:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this would be a good idea :> ·Add§hore· /_Cont 12:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, with the exception of interwiki bots, if we have the same type of bots doing the same task we're doin' it wrong. BJ 12:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The idea is to categorize the BOTs that are normally requested by people. You dont need Sign Bots / Anti Vandal Bots / interwiki bots to be listed there. The idea is to help the people to contact bot oeprators/BOTs directly if it is urgent -- TinuCherian - 12:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I am proposing use of {{Botcats}} on BOT requests page. It will produce

Commonly Requested Bots

You may add more category links needed.Thoughts/Suggestions ??? -- TinuCherian - 05:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I am being WP:BOLD and added the Template to the BOt request page. Feel free to remove /add / update categories -- TinuCherian - 05:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

LemmeyBOT replacement

This bot was really useful in fixing broken references, but now it's inactive because its owned has been indefblocked. Its sources are available at User talk:Lemmey. Could someone who knows Python pick up this task? MaxSem 05:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Request for BAG membership

Per the bot policy, I am making this post to inform the community of my request for BAG membership. Please feel free to ask any questions/comment there. RichardΩ612 Ɣ ɸ 16:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

TinucherianBot

Moved from Misplaced Pages talk:Bots/Requests for approval

The TinucherianBot Special:Contributions/TinucherianBot is behaving rather destructively catagorising many, many articles incorrectly. See User_talk:TinucherianBot for some recent complaints. This bot should be switched off immediately but I don't know how to do this. I think the number of false positives this bot is producing is not acceptable but I don't know how to go about getting it shut down, most bots have those big red emergency shut down buttons, this bot appears not to have one so I am posting here in the hope that someone can sort this bot out. Jdrewitt (talk) 08:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Blocked. MaxSem 08:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on, Dont block the bot for a bot request given to me... Please see this for the discussion ... I have been asked by the WP:FOOD WikiProject Food and drink members for the tagging of articles for the project . I gave them the entire category tree and I got it 'cleaned' by them (See this ). I have also tried my level best to remove any unwanted categories. What should I do further ??? -- TinuCherian - 08:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Glass production was tagged because it was wrongly categorized under Category:Wine packaging and storage and Potassium bisulfite was categorized under Category:Food additives . This is no fault of the bot... I request you to kindly unblock the bot -- TinuCherian - 09:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say Glass production was wrongly categorised as Category:Wine packaging and storage. I think the presumption that anything that is in the wine packaging category belongs in the Food and Drink category is what is wrong. There are many, many issues with the bot which have been brought up by users on your talk page and despite your efforts these false positives are still getting through. The bot should not categorise every single page that might be remotely related to food and drink. Jdrewitt (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I am not sure how bots are usually policed, but to allow a bot to carry on its merry way expecting users to flag the false positives doesn't seem right to me. What about the articles which slip through the net. Jdrewitt (talk) 09:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The bot was ONLY servicing a bot request and was done in good faith... Project banner Tagging and Assessing articles are an important part of the workload of most, if not all WikiProjects. Howover it is tedious to keep track of newer articles that come under the scope of the the project regularly and add the project banner manually. Hence TinucherianBot was employed to run over the relavent categories of Category:Foods and Category:Beverages etc. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. Maximum caution and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen...These are mostly due to somebody miscategoried the page. It is obvious to have say 1-2% of error when you are tagging thousands of pages. A WikiProject is a collection of pages devoted to the management of a specific topic or family of topics within Misplaced Pages; and, simultaneously, a group of editors that use said pages to collaborate on encyclopedic work.The idea of Wikiprojects is to identify the articles that falls under its scope and help to improve them and not to disrupt them. Nothing happens more than collaborative efforts from more interested and experienced people by adding an additional project banner on its talk page. -- TinuCherian - 09:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Tinucherian: See my response to this at your talk page. Let's try to keep this discussion in one place.

--David Göthberg (talk) 10:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The reason, I commented here is the requested of the block have made a public announcement here and it is my duty to reply here also -- TinuCherian - 11:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

A block is ok to stop the bot from making further edits, but at this point I think it is safe to assume that any problems have been fixed, and that the bot should be unblocked, and allowed to continue the task. There is no need for an indef block --T-rex 15:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not so sure if TinucherianBot should be allowed to operate in the future. The WP:FOOD request was obviously flawed and a responsible bot owner would have noticed this immediately. (See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Food_and_drink#Poorly_thought_out_tagging). Cacycle (talk) 17:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

We seems to run into trouble often with WikiProject tagging bots. I believe we already have an informal rule that going through categories recursively is bad. Perhaps we need to codify some rules to avoid problems like this. As for resuming the task, I would agree that it should not resume. If it does, it should use a list of pages, not categories. The comments by the operator I've seen do not give me any confidence. If lists really are hand-checked, error should be far less than 2%. Many of the pages were not incorrectly categorized - the bot was running on categories where not all the pages were directly food related such as Category:Chicken and Category:Wine regions of Canada. Mr.Z-man 20:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

This conversation is happening all over... The dangerous thing wasn't just the poor choice of categories, it was also the indiscriminate tagging of all articles in sub-cats. Category:Restaurants => Category:Dining clubs => Category:Traditional gentlemen's clubs => Athletic Club of Columbus. These are not miscategorized. If the bot operator does not know how subcategories work then they should not operate a bot. JohnnyMrNinja 00:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that somthing should be in place to stop this sort of thing from happening again. I think that before each bot run that tags talk pages with WikiProject banners a specific task approval should be submited to BRFA with a full list of articles and catagories. Currently bot operators may request for approval to tag on request and then can just go ahead with tagging on request, with no one really looking over what is being taged and no apparent community concensus. I think by allowing people to go through lists and being able to comment will avoid disasters like this. Any comments? Printer222 (talk) 02:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Please check the new rule that I have just added to Misplaced Pages:Bot_policy#Restrictions_on_specific_tasks. Running a tagging bot on a list of categories (and even worse, recursively on sub-categories) makes no sense whatsoever. A bot based on this scheme should have never been approved and its rights should be revoked immediately. User:Tinucherian lacks a basic understanding of the categorization system and was not willing to learn from previous fiaskos as can be seen on User_talk:TinucherianBot. Cacycle (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Better double check that woody. CWii_{(Talk|Contribs)} 04:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted you really can't just "Add rules" whenever you feel like. These things need to be discussed beofre going on a policy page. §hep • ¡Talk to me!

Sorry, I will add it to the discussion page. Cacycle (talk) 04:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Please comment under Wikipedia_talk:Bot_policy#Category_traversing_for_tagging. Cacycle (talk) 05:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't touch my comments. CWii_{(Talk|Contribs)} 05:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Explanation by the Bot Operator

Comments and Appeal to All fellow Wikipedians by the bot Operator
Before everyone slaps me for being a 'reckless and brainless' bot operator, Allow me a chance to explain what had happened. I request everyone to patiently read this completely before jumping all around to shoot me. TinucherianBot is a AWB and Kingbotk Plugin based Bot, which can tag for WikiProjects based on 2 options - Making list from a Category or from categories recursively. While applying for the BRFA itself, I make a comment as follows "To be safe it will not run for categories recursively. The requester has to provide the end node category(s) for the article list collection."...Altough there are many other AWB based bots, I dont think anyone else would have made such a thought full comment while applying for BRFA itself. The reason is pretty simple: You might not expect Category:World War II to be a subcategory of Category:Thailand, but it actually is, and a bot will find it! It is usually safer to give a complete list of categories that should be worked through individually, rather than one category to be analysed recursively. I am not sure whether every bot operator takes each bot task as seriously as I do ( See User:TinucherianBot#Current_Tasks. I even maintain a page to record everything for each bot task I do , See example of WP:THAI Tagging for User:TinucherianBot/Autotagg/Thai on request of Badagnani.

Project banner Tagging and Assessing articles are an important part of the workload of most, if not all WikiProjects.However it is tedious to keep track of newer articles that come under the scope of the the project regularly and add the project banner manually. Hence bots are employed to tag articles based on categories ( You may see this is one of most common bot requests). The idea of Wikiproject tagging is identify and give the articles to the Misplaced Pages article editors whih a common interest and expertise. Nothing happens more than attention and contributions of more subject experts by additional tagging by a project, which is primarily needed for the growth of Misplaced Pages. If you are more concerned of cluttering of talk page , we have options of {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} which takes up very less space. It is also sad to see Some Wikiprojects members trying to 'own' articles by preventing tagging by another project , which is against one of our fundamental rules of WP:OWN. Wikiprojects like WP:FOOD have very strong assessment task force members who could remove unnecessary banner tags during manual assessment.

Now let me 'briefly' explain the WP:FOOD Tagging Issue. I am "_NOT_" claiming irresponsibility on what my bot does or did. You have no idea how much pain I took to carry out the request to add tag for WP:FOOD articles.It started when Badagnani , a very senior and respected Wikipedian, made a Bot request for WP:FOOD. See Misplaced Pages:Bot_requests#Category:Desserts_by_country . He had also said "A few of the above subcats have subcats of their own, and if the talk pages of the articles in those could be tagged as well, it would be great..." I could have used the Category(Recursive) option of AutoWikiBrowse(AWB) on Category:Desserts_by_country and just sat back. But I painfully collected all sub relavent categories in it and run only on them. You can see this activity on the above link. I did the same for Misplaced Pages:Bot_requests#Category:Desserts_and_Category:Salads and Misplaced Pages:Bot_requests#Food_tagging_request requests by him. When I in doubt , I always get back to clarify the requester as in Misplaced Pages:Bot_requests#Food_tagging_request . You can see me asking him "Should I include resturant subcategories like this Category:Hamburger restaurants ?? -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 04:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)" and "Sorry to ask again... I am a bit confused here... Does restaurant chains falls under WP:FOOD and need to be tagged with {{WPFOOD}} ? -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 05:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)" . I had then made a seperate subpage for me to archive this request User:TinucherianBot/Autotagg/WPFOOD.

It was then , I was approached by Jeremy (Jerem43) , a prominent member and assessment task force senior member of WP:FOOD with this request . Having successfully and satisfactorily completed this request also, He came up with a newthis request which was a bit aggressive.

""I have decided to get everything in one fell swoop, so this request is rather large.

Could you hit these next:

Category:Beverages
Category:WikiProject Herbs and Spices
Category:Foods

Again, tag everything in these main categories as well as all sub-categories except Category:Fictional foods. Thank you again, --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 16:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)""

I _DID_NOT_ blindly go ahead with using the Category(Recursive) option on Category:Foods on AWB . I told him this :

Important note : This is a huge effort that involves around 1500 categories and approx 24,000 unique articles. There might be wrong or misplaced cats in the subcat tree. I have collected all the subcats in Category:Foods and made this list . I want the members to carefully verify the entire list and remove ALL unwanted cats and give me a final go ahead. Then TinucherianBot will start tagging the articles in the approved categories...It is a pleasure working for this project -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 06:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As you see , I then made this list : User:TinucherianBot/Autotagg/WPFOOD/Category:Foods myself and revised it several times myself eliminating the possibly wrongly tagged ones (with my limited knowledge of the subject matter) , which is evident from the page history . I handed over this list to the ALL the WP:FOOD members at their talk page here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Food_and_drink#Bot_Tagging

Important note : Jeremy had asked to tagg articles in Category:Foods and its subcategories... This is a huge effort that involves around 1500 categories and approx 24,000 unique articles. There might be wrong or misplaced cats in the subcat tree. I have collected all the subcats in Category:Foods and made this list . I want the members to carefully verify the entire list and remove ALL unwanted cats and give me a final go ahead. Then TinucherianBot will start tagging the articles in the approved categories...It is a pleasure working for this project -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 06:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I cleaned up the list and reduced it to 1256 categories... Please have a look -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 06:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I created a quick list at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Exclude, about 122 categories in all. Any one else please take a look! --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you... I did further cleanup and made the final list. The bot is preparing the article list now -- TinuCherian (Wanna Talk?) - 09:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As you see, everything was done me with maximum caution and attention and in good faith in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. I even took the extra step of leaving a summary on each and every talk page as to what we are doing so that we can get feedback that will let us know what step we will need to alter the way we go about this to ensure this is done right.

Kindly be aware and understand that I didn't run the Bot blindly and recursively on the Category:Food , but created a list of categories from main list, removed the possible wrong categories from them ( with my limited knowledge on the subject matter ) ,gave the list to the project members and got it further cleaned . It was then I created the article list by manually supplying only the 'approved' categories....and finally running the bot over the talk page of the articles ...

Much of the errors was due to mis categorization ~~like Potassium_bisulfite included in Category:Food additives~~ which anyone would think as a category that falls under WP:FOOD. Having said this , we are not rejecting the fact that we should have paid much further attention and caution while selecting the categories. Whether you all ask us or not, as responsible Wikipedians we will go around and cleanup up the 'mess' we have done. What should be understood by fellow wikipedians is that we are also responsible wikipedians with a good history of contributions. We are not vandals or disruptive editors

I am also a wikipedian who is credible and with integrity , hardworking for Misplaced Pages for the betterment of all , like all other people like you..."To Err is human and to forgive is divine" . I do apologize for all the incovineance and request you to help me continue with my bot. I work for and is coordinators for some of bigger Wikiprojects like WP:Christianity , WP:INDIA etc where the services of my bot is very essential. Hence blocking my bot indefinitely is also unfair.I promise to handle and 'tame' my bot more diligently and carefully in future.I appeal to all the admins and fellow Wikipedians to understand my good intentions and also unblock the bot TinucherianBot -- TinuCherian - 08:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I concur with this summary and believe an unblock is certainly warranted, for one of our best and most faithful Wikipedians, keeping in mind the following: when I first asked for a bot request, the brakes were put on my very wide-ranging request, and after listening to what I was told by several experienced bot operators, I moderated my request, carefully checking and asking for just a few cats at a time. In the future, could we agree to do this when we get such overly large requests from editors who don't know about things like the WWII / WPTHAI example given above, and the fact that these things *will* happen unless we do proceed with utmost care? Badagnani (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked, with a hope that next time much more attention will be payed to category selection, and that Tinucherian realises now that bot should be stopped first, fixed next. MaxSem 08:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The bot should not have been unblocked. It is still under heavy discussion. I checked, and now it was tagging counties and films! Pretty much every populated area in the world is producing food, I don't think we should food tag all the counties in the world? And most movies contain some scene with foods.

So, I have blocked the bot again.

--David Göthberg (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Whow ! Why was the bot blocked again now by User:Davidgothberg :( ??. The bot was not even running since yesterday when it was blocked( I had stopped it more than 24 hours ago) . See Special:Contributions/TinucherianBot -- TinuCherian - 10:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I just noticed that myself. I had mixed up the dates. Right, you are not running the bot now. But just because it doesn't run doesn't mean it shouldn't be blocked. The bot is still under heavy discussion. And as I have stated earlier: You should contact all the affected WikiProjects and give them a week to check the list. And as far as I understand neither you nor any one else have checked the list of article names that your category list results in. It seems you are still planning to blindly tag all articles in any food related categories. Thus, I will leave your bot blocked until these concerns have been handled.

--David Göthberg (talk) 10:20, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Sir, This is totally unfair. We discussed all the issues here and everywhere about previous issues of running this bot and decided on future course of action on running any bot on categories. I was not even thinking of running the bot for any project for some time now ( I am demoralized enough for now) , let alone WP:FOOD. Then how could you blindly accuse me of "still planning to blindly tag all articles in any food related categories ". -- TinuCherian - 10:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I have told you before: I can not know what you think, I am not a mind reader. And if you are not going to run the bot, then why are you so upset that it is blocked?

From the comments I have seen on this page and your talk page and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Food and drink it seemed you were going to run the bot again, after only removing some more categories from the bot's category list. That is far from enough and not even close to the fixes we were asking you to do. One of the things I am asking for is that you let the discussions and checks take their time. That is, that you wait a week. No matter what fixes you do, I can not accept that the bot runs sooner than that. You have to get people a chance to look into the matter. You can not cheat time. So I will at a minimum leave your bot blocked for 5 more days, since that means about 7 days since you first announced the list. But you also have to do the other fixes.

Your new statement that you are not going to run the bot for the time being doesn't change my decision. Since you still show no sign of understanding how these kinds of bot runs should be handled, I have to leave your bot blocked. Since from what I have seen, the next time you do a run for some other project you are likely to repeat your mistakes.

So I suggest you re-read what people have written about your bot runs and then sit back for some days thinking about it. You might learn something. Then decide on how you want to run your bot in the future, then describe that in detail and let other people look at your description. Then we might unblock your bot. But as I said, I see no reason to unblock the bot within 5 days, no matter what you do, since these things must be allowed to take their time.

--David Göthberg (talk) 11:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, the mistakenly tagged articles have been actively sought out and fixed, by several editors including User:Tinucherian. Badagnani (talk) 11:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Davidgothberg , I had enough ! Thanq ! With all respect to you , I should say either you fail to read my words I say or you cant read dates and time from Misplaced Pages. Where from this page and my talk page and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Food and drink it seems that I am going to run the bot again, after only removing some more categories from the bot's category list ? -- TinuCherian - 11:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment/query - I am also leaning in favor unblocking the bot immediately. I think all parties have learned that they were a bit overzealous and that to tag more than a few hundred articles at once is inviting disaster. Tinucherian, what's the next task that would be assigned to the bot? – Clockwork Soul 13:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Nothing much as of now, probably delivery of newsletters of this month of WP:Christianity and WP:INDIA which is in progress -- TinuCherian - 13:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that the chance of any repeats after this much negative attention for one (huge) task. JohnnyMrNinja 14:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that reblocking was unnecessary, I'm still concerned by the summary above. From a quick read of the article, Potassium bisulfite is not miscategorized into Category:Food additives. It appears that it is simply a category where the bot should not have been run over all the pages. Mr.Z-man 15:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

May be it is misjudgment from me for that particular category, I leave it to the requester and the members of the WP:FOOD to analyse whether the category falls under their project.Anyone would normally think that Category:Food additives is under WP:FOOD project . A bot operator can always go an extra mile to help and remove any wrong cats from the list he was given, but primarily he has to take in faith the analysis of the requester or the project members. A bot operator is knowledgeable on how to run bots only but not necessarily a subject expert on the scope of a project. All he should ( and could ) is to ask them to carefully analyze the cats before the bot run , which I had done, as evident from the WP:FOOD Talk page. Having said this, I am not claiming any irresponsibility of his bot action by the bot operator but we should believe him for things done in good faith.-- TinuCherian - 05:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Much of the category probably does fall under the project, however, some articles in it do not, which is where the errors come from. Misplaced Pages's category system is not set up so that you can reliably say "every page in this category is relevant to this project" for every category in a list. Mr.Z-man 15:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

If Potassium bisulfite is a food additive, then it probably should be tagged for WP:FOOD --T-rex 19:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Re-Block by Davidgothberg

The re-block by User:Davidgothberg was inappropriate. It is uncalled for and contrary to our blocking policy. Blocks are to be preventive and not punitive. This one definitely seems punitive by an involved administrator. Tinucherian appears to be listening to the feedback given him and should be granted AGF. The suggestion that the bot has to blocked a specific time ("That is, that you wait a week. No matter what fixes you do, I can not accept that the bot runs sooner than that.") is unreasonable. I would also note that the Davidgothberg did not block for a week, he blocked indefinitely. -- JLaTondre (talk) 14:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Does anyone really think that TinuCherian is going to run the bot again without fixing it first? Yes, a few mistakes were made, but nothing that isn't easy to fix. I fully trust that the next time this bot runs, that these issues will have been addressed --T-rex 15:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes i think that some people need to go and read WP:FAITH again. A mistake was made, and im sure the user has learned from the mistake. You shouldn't assume that the user intends on running the bot before fixing mistakes. I personally see the bot being blocked further as a form of punishment, theres no need for the bot to be blocked any longer. People learn from their mistakes and now we need to get over it. Printer222 (talk) 15:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the block is not punitive, it is preventive. I first ran into Tinucherian and TinucherianBot some week ago when he was masstagging articles with for Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Computing. Pretty much the same thing happened then. We unblocked him then since he claimed he would not masstag articles like that again, and be more careful next time he uses his bot. But as you can see his claim was empty.

Here is the things I think TinuCherian needs to do if he intends to continue tagging talk pages again:

Create a description of what he intends to do and a list of articles that he intends to tag. So others can help out and check the list. (Not done, he only listed categories not articles.)
Manually look through the article titles in that list and remove any false positives. (Not done.)
Contact related WikiProjects and tell them what he plans to do. (He only contacted 1-2 WikiProjects.)
Wait 7 days after he announced what he intends to do. (Not done, the 7 days have not yet passed.)
Only do the bot run if he gets consensus for it. (Not done.)
When he restarts the bot, run it slowly to minimize the damage if something goes wrong. (The last two times he kept the bot running in spite massive protests on his talk pages.)
Change the message that the bot leaves on tagged talk pages. That is, not use links in the heading title and not claim things that are incorrect in the message.

TinuCherian has not stated if he is going to do any of these things or not. So I can not see that he is "listening to the feedback". This is what I have seen him claim so far:

"I promise to handle and 'tame' my bot more diligently and carefully in future."

That's pretty much the same thing he said the last time, and it doesn't tell if he is going to do any of the things we ask him to do. Thus I can not unblock his bot.

--David Göthberg (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with David, the approach that TinucherianBot currently uses is fundamentally flawed. It simply cannot work on Misplaced Pages. Moreover, Tinucherian has not realized this yet and obviously lacks an understanding of how the categorization system on Misplaced Pages works. The current category-based bot should stay blocked indefinitely to prevent otherwise inevitable future chaos. Cacycle (talk) 16:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Cacycle: As has already been explained to you at Misplaced Pages talk:Bot policy, category based tagging is the normal mode and works well in most cases. TinucherianBot problem was not category-based tagging, but recursive subcategory-based tagging. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

David: You are trying to dictate personal preferences via a block. That is not the purpose of a block. If you want to see changes in bot tagging policy, than you should suggest those changes and get agreement. There is an ongoing discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Bot policy. You should join it instead of misapplying the block button. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

JLaTondre, As I had said earlier, I didn't run the Bot blindly and recursively on the Category:Food (upon request by the WP:FOOD member) , but created a list of categories from main list, removed the possible wrong categories from them ( with my limited knowledge on the subject matter ) ,gave the list to the project members and got it further cleaned . It was then I created the article list by manually supplying only the 'approved' categories....and finally running the bot over the talk page of the articles ...The only problem ( _NOT_ a small one ) , attention given by me or the requester to eliminate the wrong categories was not enough. I have admitted that.

David , May I point you to WP:POINT . Upon my explanation, MaxSem , another admin, unblocked the bot...Just after that you blocked the bot again twice . Sadly, You didnt even care to see whether the bot is still running. I am sorry to say this.. but from the reasons you have given, it is evident that the purpose of blocking again and again is not the reason but your own personal thinking . With all respect to you , I appeal to you to kindly don't abuse the powers and trust we have on Admins..Even when others say to keep the bot unblocked, I must say you are unwilling to listen to others or accept any consensus. With huge regret , I give up.You may do what ever you feel is right. Neither me nor others can convince you -- TinuCherian - 04:57, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

David, I understand your concerns. But asking for the individual articles to be listed at somepage and manually checked is not the norm. If this is the case, the human might as well go ahead and tag those pages. A bot is not needed. Project tagging was always done on selected categories. There are going to be a few articles that may be false positives that will need to be fixed. If you follow all the requests at the WP:BOTREQ, they are based on category tagging. Please check User:WatchlistBot which used a similar method. I hope you could re-consider your request to manually check individual articles instead of categories. The bot problems here were due to tagging using recursive sub-categories, but this example should not used to further complicate the process. Please let me know if I need to further explain. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 12:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Concur with Ganeshk: we shouldn't require humans to do bot's work. Careful examination of all categories yielded by recursive search has proven be more than enough. And since the bot hasn't edited after my unblock, David's block was definitely not needed. MaxSem 13:57, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Boy, what a mess. Let's clean up. Bots doing recurses that are approved by group are okay. Bots doing categories are okay. That's the consenus. You've abused your powered. That's the fact. CWii_{(Talk|Contribs)} 17:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Fellows, could we please stick to the process. Per Misplaced Pages:Bot policy, a bot can be blocked on the following occasions (emphasis mine):

Administrators may block bot accounts that operate without approval, operate in a manner not specified on their approval request, or operate counter to the terms of their approval (for example, by editing too quickly). A block may also be issued if a bot process operates without being logged in to an account, or is logged in to an account other than its own.

It seems that none of these conditions are met here, since the bot's task is in fact approved. So, if you disagree with the approval, you may appeal against it (such as here). I trust the bot operator not to run this specific task (the bot also has others) while it is under discussion here. Somebody should perhaps formally re-open the approval request. But whether or not the task is approved / reapproved, or which restrictions will be put onto it, is a matter that the WP:BAG should decide, and not a single user on his sole discretion, even if he's got the admin buttons. --B. Wolterding (talk) 18:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

It's very simple: The bot caused a lot of problems, so it was blocked. I and other users asked questions to the bot owner and even suggested ways to fix the problem. But instead of answering the questions and telling how he plans to fix the problems Tinucherian spends his time repeatedly demanding to have his bot unblocked and complaining, saying things like "why do you hate me like this" and "we are also responsible wikipedians with a good history of contributions". And this has happened before with Tinucherian.

The first partial explanation by Tinucherian in what way he plans to run his bot in the future is his comment above dated (04:57, 6 July 2008). But Tinucherian, you still have not responded to all the questions/suggestions. I listed seven points in my previous comment, I am still waiting for an answer for most of them.

For instance:

You state in your message above: "gave the list to the project members and got it further cleaned". As I have stated repeatedly, just posting the list a couple of hours before you do the run is far from enough time. And that was a list of more than 1000 categories! You have still not responded if you are going to give people more time to check the lists in the future, and how long time you will give people?
And will you contact related WikiProjects before you do such runs? (Of course, you can and probably should ask the person requesting the bot run to do such contacting, but you should check that it has been done. But will you see to that?)

As long as the bot owner haven't responded to the questions and concerns raised and doesn't answer the questions we ask him, then the bot should be blocked. Since then we can we can only guess about how he is going to run the bot, and this shouldn't be a guessing game. (Well, if I have to guess, then I have to go on previous experience and the vague statements I have seen from Tinucherian, and then my guess is that he will continue to do the same mistakes. Thus the block is preventive.)

Ganeshk: No, no one has asked him to check the articles, we just ask that he (or more correctly the ones requesting the bot run) checks the article titles. That doesn't involve loading any articles, that just involves reading the article titles listed in each category to see if they sound like they belong in the tagging run or not.

B. Wolterding: As you yourself so well stated at Misplaced Pages talk:Bot policy#Category traversing for tagging: "Regarding the Wikiproject tagging: Articles are assigned to a Wikiproject because that project is supposed to work on them. If so many articles are added that the project can't even go through the list of titles due to lack of capacity, then something is terribly flawed I think."

Oh, by the way, the Misplaced Pages:Bot policy says that: "bots doing non-urgent tasks may edit approximately once every ten seconds". That's 6 edits per minute. But TinucherianBot was doing 8 edits per minute. So I still very much would like to hear from Tinucherian if he will set his bot to run slower the next time?

--David Göthberg (talk) 02:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

If someone had raised the timing issue with him previously I'm sure he would have already addressed it. 6v8 is really splitting hairs now isn't it? --AdultSwim (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

AdultSwim: Oh, it has been raised before, see for instance the sixth point in my message above dated (15:56, 5 July 2008). But as you can see, Tinucherian has not bothered to comment on that.

--David Göthberg (talk) 03:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

And the bot has not edited since 08:15, 4 July 2008. Please see word 10 of my statement above dated 02:44, 7 July 2008. (Here's a hint its 'previously') --AdultSwim (talk) 03:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Davidgothberg: I still think that you need to assume good faith. Assume that he has learnt from this mistake and that he endavours for it not to happen again. From what i can see you are assuming bad faith. This may not be your intention but this is how it comes accross. Printer222 (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

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