Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:51, 25 September 2005

old stuff: User talk:Matia.gr/Archive 1

Please leave new message at the buttom.

REX

REX part 1

The following personal message is in Greek for various reasons of my own. Because of my well known hostility to messages on the English Misplaced Pages being in a foreign language, a translation is available on request.

MATIA, Θα ήθελα να παραπονεθώ! Συνέχεια με κατηγορείς, λέγοντας ότι προκαλώ. Αυτό δεν είναι αλήθεια. Εγώ προσπαθώ να βελτιώσω τα λήμματα του Misplaced Pages και πάντα αιτιολογώ τα edits μου. Συζητήσαμε χθές για το αν οι Αρβανίτες καταλαβαίνουν τους Τόσκηδες και τους Γκέκηδες και τα αντίστροφα. Έγω έκανα μερικά edits που δεν έπρεπε, μου εξήγησες ότι ήταν λάθος και τα διόρθωσα. Σήμερα έκανα edit λέγοντας τα Αρανίτικα είναι μια μορφή της Τόσκικης διαλέκτου αποδεικνύοντας το και εσύ μου λες ότι προκαλώ. Έπειτα στο Talk Page της Δημοκρατίας της Μακεδονίας εξηγώ γιατί πιστεύω ότι ΠΓΔΜ δεν είναι η επίσημη ονομασία αυτής της χώρας και μου λες ότι προκαλώ. Είναι αυτό δίκαιο; REX 11:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX, είναι κάτι που δεν έκανες μόνο μία φορά. Και θα ήθελα πολύ να μην είναι αλήθεια το ότι τα γράφεις για να προκαλείς, αλλά δεν μπορώ να ξέρω ούτε αν το κάνεις επίτηδες, ούτε όχι. Στη σελίδα για την ονομασία έχει μια εκτενή ανάλυση για την έννοια ονομάζεται επίσημα και τη σημαίνει ΟΗΕ, κάμποσες παραγράφους πιο πάνω απ' τα σημερινά μας σχόλια. Ο ΟΗΕ χρησιμοποιεί σε όλα τα έγγραφα του σαν ορολογία το φ.υ.ρ.ο.μ. Αφενός αυτά τα έγγραφα είναι όλα επίσημα και θεωρώ ότι είναι σαφές αυτή η ονομασία έχει υιοθετηθεί και επιλεγχθεί για επίσημη χρήση. Αυτό είναι το οφίσιαλ που γράφαμε και ξαναγράφαμε. Η φράση που πήγες και άλλαξες στους Αρβανίτες ήταν η ίδια φράση που δεν πείραξες χτες όταν έγγραφες για τους Γκέγκηδες (αν το γράφω λάθος συγνώμη). Έχω άδικο να αναρωτιέμαι γιατί το κάνεις και ειδικά όταν μου λες ξανά ότι για μένα δήθεν καλή θέληση σημαίνει να συμφωνούν οι άλλοι με όσα λες. Πώς να πιστέψω ότι δεν τα κάνεις επίτηδες; Τις συνεισφορές μου μπορείς, και σε προτρέπω, να τις ελέγξεις μία προς μία. Δε θα βρεις μια φορά να έχω γράψει κάτι σε άρθρο που είτε είναι αμφισβητίσιμο είτε δεν έχει συζητηθεί εκτενώς στην αντίστοιχη σελίδα. Θέλω πολύ να πιστέψω ότι καμιά φορά βγάζεις βιαστικά συμπεράσματα και πως δεν το κάνεις επίτηδες. Βοήθησέ με με τις πράξεις σου, ειλικρινά θέλω να πιστέψω και θέλω να συνεργαστούμε για να προχωρήσει αυτή η εγκυκλοπαίδεια. Σ' ευχαριστώ. MATIA 12:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX, this is something that you did more than once. I would really like to be wrong that you write these to provoke, but I can't tell or know if you are doing it on purpose, or not. In the page about the name (dispute) there is a long analysis of the term officialy named and what is the meaning of UN, few paragraphs beyond our today comments. UN uses in all UN documents the term f.y.r.o.m. On the one hand all the documents are official and I believe it is clarified that this naming term has been adopted and chosen for official use. This is the official that has been long discussed. The phrase you changed in Arvanites is the same phrase you didn't altered yesterday, when you wrote about the Ghegs (I apologise if I have a spelling mistake). Am I wrong to wonder why are you doing it nd especially when you say again the I, supposedly, mean good will mean agreeing with everything you say. How can I believe that you are not doing these on purpose? You can check my contributions, and I encourage you to do so, one by one. You won't find me writing something disputable in an article and you won't find me writing something that wasn't discussed in long, before in the talk page. I would really want to believe that you are not doing it on purpose. Help me with your acts, I sincerely want to believe (you) and I want to co-operate with you to improve this encyclopedia. Thank you. 12:53, 3 September 2005 translated MATIA 22:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Δεν διαφωνώ μαζί σου σε αυτό. Ο ΟΗΕ και τα περισσότερα κράτη του κόσμου έχουν αναγνωρίσει επίσημα εκείνο το κράτος ως ΠΓΔΜ. Σε εκείνη την εκτενή ανάλυση που λες, λένε ότι υπάρχει νόμος του ΟΗΕ (UN law) που δέκτηκε το κράτος των Σλαβομακεδόνων και κάνει το όνομα 'Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας' παράνομο και το όνομα ΠΓΔΜ την επίσημη ονομασία αυτού του κράτους. Αυτό δεν είναι αλήθεια (μη νομίζεις, ούτε εμένα μ' αρέσει να ονομάζεται Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας, είναι παραπλανητικό), συμφώνησαν να γίνει μέλος του ΟΗΕ χρησιμοποιώντας για μερικούς διεθνής σκοπούς μόνο (πρωτόκολλα, συνθήκες κλπ) το όνομα ΠΓΔΜ. Δεν συμφώνησαν να αλλάξει το όνομα του κράτους. Αυτό δεν κάνει το όνομα ΔΜ παράνομο. Αν είχαν συμφωνήσει σε αυτό, τότε η μακεδονική κυβέρνηση δε θα το χρησιμοποιούσε ως επίσημο. Εγώ λέω να κάνουμε το εξής: να κανουπε αυτό που έκαναν στο άρθρο Ισραήλ, δηλαδή να χρησιμοποιήσουμε το όνομα που ορίζει το σύνταγμα του κράτους αλλά να αναφέρουμε ότι ο ΟΗΕ το αναγνωρίζει ως ΠΓΔΜ. Μη ξεχνάς, όπως έχω ξαναπεί, ο ΟΗΕ δεν είναι World government. REX 14:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Πρόσεξε στο άρθρο έλεγε όνομα τάδε, επίσημα ονομάζετε δείνα. Το τάδε είναι το συνταγματικό όνομα-αυτοπροσδιορισμός, και το δεύτερο το όνομα που χρησιμοποιείται διεθνώς, ΟΗΕ, IMF και όλοι οι υπόλοιποι οργανισμοί, στα επίσημα έγγραφα. Όσο για απαγόρευση του σκέτου όρου πρέπει να ψάξεις τις αποφάσεις του ΟΗΕ 94-97 κι όχι 92-93. MATIA 14:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Please notice that in the article, the previous phrasing was name is this... officialy named that. This is the constitutional name-selfidentifying, and that is the internationally used name, UN, IMF and the rest organizations, on (their) official documents. About the (agreement on) illegalizing the plain term you should search the UN resolutions and agreements between 94-97, not in 92-93. 14:46, 3 September 2005 translated MATIA 22:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Μήπως θα ήταν καλύτερα να μην αναφέρουμε τη λέξη 'επίσημο' και να πούμε απλώς: Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας είναι το συνταγματικό όνομα αλλά ο ΟΗΕ την ονομάζει ΠΓΔΜ η κάτι παρόμοιο; REX 15:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX part 2

MATIA, On the talk page of Arvanites I wasn't referring to yoy as the far-right extremist, but Theathenae, because he keeps calling me (directly mind you, I just implied it) an Albanian extremist. I wish he wouldn't. I'm not even Albanian. Also I wasn't refferint to the ethnologue.com linguists either. Why would I. They themselves have at the heading of the page Arvanitika, Albanian (haven't you wondered why, given that you believe that Arvanitic is not a variant of Albanian, but a seperate language altgether?). Also, you have said that I provoke. That is a totally unjustified claim intended to destroy my credibility. You should stop it. Such tricks should not be used. Even if it were true, it is not your place to dicipline Wikipedians. REX 21:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

REX I 'm sick and tired of your false accusations. My contributions are here, and anyone including you can check them. If I ever did anything wrong, or even if I ever did any of those things you imply or say, I am here and I am responsible of my acts. I never played any kind of tricks. What you have proven repeatedly the last two days is that you fall into vicious circles. I don't know why you can't help doing it.

Other than that I'm wondering why you, after our last discussions, are bringing back the provoke thing. Should I translate my previous answer to English so that everyone can read our discussion? I really don't understand why you act this way.

I've never tried to discipline anyone, and I wouldn't try it because I can't do it. I 've shown you respect, despite your acts were many times unjustified. You falsely accuse me of playing tricks. MATIA 22:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, you may have not realised that you were doing it, but you accused me of proviking out of bad faith, didn't you. All I had done was make some entirely justifiable statements which you didn't agree with. You didn't however tick off Theathenae for always proviking me on the Talk:Arvanites page. That was clearly bad faith, he wasn't presenting any arguments he was just making statements such as As you can see, your narrow-minded far-right Albanian fanaticism has no support on this talk page and Perhaps because he too is a far-right Albanian nationalist . There was no proof to those statements, I had even done something incompatable with Albanian nationalism. It is curious that you didn't tick him off. I never made such proviking statements, I just raised some questions. Perhaps because he was supporting YOUR arguments. Is that the good faith that you claim to have? I have never made unjustifiable acts as you claim. Everything I did can be justified. Don't forget that it takes TWO parties to make vicious circles. I want this thing over with as much as you. You just don't have any sources to support your arguments. I on the other hand do:

• Encarta refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Albanian
• Ethnologue includes Albanian in the names of the language (at the heading Arvanitika, Albanian)
• Your statement that ethnologue calls Arvanitic a language in its own right can be questioned as: a) Its categrisation methods into languages and dialects have been criticised before (check the entry and you will see), b) Assuming that they are right in this case (Arvanitic is indeed a language) I am not saying that Arvanitic is not a language (I even changed its name from Arvanitic to Arvanitic language and that is how it should remain) if you check the meaning of the word variety you will see that in can mean a language in its own right (which will have a standard version), so by using that word we are not excluding the possibility that it is indeed a separate language. Unfortunately, that has not been officially established so you can't say with certainty if it is a language or a dialect (check entry), then we would know what to do.

Therefore the only thing to do is to use the phrasing that professional scholars have themselves used, unless of course you think that you know better than them. The fact that you find this phrasing so unacceptable (in my opinion) look politically motivated and that raises questions about your credibility. The above argument is not a vicious circle as you falsly claim in conjunction with my other observations (all of which could be innocent oversights, I make plenty. Nobody is perfect) would make people doubt your soundness. Anyway, let's just get this thing over with. I have seen that you have indeed mabe meaningful contributions to WP articles and I like to believe that I do too. Then we can move on to other articles. All of this message of which some parts are quite harsh is of the best intentions. REX 23:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

You are falling into vicious circles. MATIA 08:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

That is another of your tricks isn't it (you claim not to use any). I have a legitimate argument above, there are no defects. REX 08:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I wrote you on Talk:Arvanites and/or Talk:Arvanitic language that both phrases are correct and I wrote you why the one is better than the other. At some point you seemed to agree and then you started all over again. I can't go through all these, again.

You attacked me with phrases like MATIA, does 'good will' mean agreeing with everything you say?, You have to prove what you say, not let your POV into the article and expect us to accept it because it is what you want (while I was quoting ethnologue), you accuse me of playing tricks etc.

I'm only trying to protect myself from your attacks.

You are falling into vicious circles and this has nothing to do with Straw man arguments. You are falling into loops, your questions have been answered and then you start all over again. This is meaningless.
MATIA 09:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

If saying Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is so wrong, why then does Encarta use it? Encarta is edited by professional scholars. Are you expecting us to accept that you know better than them. Your definition is entirely without precedent and can easilly be challenged by anyone, while mine is quoted by professionals. REX 09:29, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Your questions have been answered before. If you can't understand the answers, what can I do? Aren't the linguists in Ethnologue professionals? Should I say that your last comment is a strawman argument? Please read again the corresponding talk pages. MATIA 09:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

i can also use ethnologue: At the heading it says Albanian, Arvanitika a language of Greece. You quote the language but that has already been quoted in the title Arvanitic language. What is the Albanian for? REX 09:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't help you. MATIA 09:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course you can't. You can't answer that can you.

• Ethnologue refers to Albanian, Arvanitika a language of Greece.
• Encarta refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Tosk.

See, how can you now claim that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. We can use the phrasing I proposed and the same phrasing is used by professionals. You don't know better than them. This is not a vicious circle is it. There are no defects. Just in case you are considering saying that Ethnologue refers to Arvanitic as a language please check Linguistics and Dialect. REX 09:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Please stop writing on my talk page about these stuff.
I told you before that I can't help you. MATIA 09:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Request

MATIA, I plead with you with all the earnestness possible to observe Misplaced Pages policy. You have no references to support your explosive claims. You have repeatedly stated that there is evidence on Talk:Arvanites and Talk:Arvanitic language. That is a lie. There is no conclusive evidence there that even implies that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. However, I do have an open mind. Because I might have overlooked something on those pages, please copy and paste relevant phrases that prove that Arvanitic is a language in its own right on my Talk Page. If you succeed in proving that Arvanitic is a language in its own right I will refrain from insisting that Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian (the UNESCO stance which you reject because it contradicts with your POV) and retract everything I have said about you (such as you promoting Greek extremism) and make a formal apology. If you can't prove this, I will have to insist on using the UNESCO phrasing because Misplaced Pages policy insists that you have to cite your sources. We simply cannot ignore what UNESCO says and say the exact opposite because you feel like it. I sincerely hope that we can cooperate. If you really do have good faith, I trust that you will. REX 11:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess I'll provide you the sources and I'll gain a (second) apology. Take care. MATIA 11:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You'll gain it when you've proved that you do have sources. I am a responisble Wikipedian and I am prepared when I am wrong to aknowledge that I am wrong and apologise. REX 11:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Nothing yet? REX 12:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Patience and politeness are two virtues. Perhaps you should exercise them. MATIA 13:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, I hope you know that if you cannot find sources and yet proceed by implementing your POV onto the article you will be violating Misplaced Pages policies Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. If you find no credible sources I suggest that you withdraw while there is still time. REX 21:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Have you checked my proposal on Talk:Arvanites#Fresh_Proposal? REX 14:04, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You are too hasty. I do suggest to exercise your politeness when you visit my talk page, it'll be an interesting change. I am an honest man and I keep my promises. I told you that I will provide you with sources, and I will. I didn't tell you that I'll give you sources in 5 minutes, or hours. When I'm ready I'll let you know. I'm gonna take a look now at your proposal and I'll probably leave my comment on Talk:Arvanites. MATIA 22:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

rex part 4

Oh MATIA, this is your tactic. Abusing the system. Well both of us can play this game. REX 20:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

a suggestion to REX

Συγκρατήσου, εκτίθεσαι με τις πράξεις σου.

I just saw you voted to delete the template about the name dispute.
I had read before, here on WP, that Encarta refers to the citizens of fYROM as Macedonians Slavs. Where's your encarta zeal?
About 3 or 4 hours before voting, today, you accussed me that I have double standards. I can't help wondering if you are the one who has double standards.

I've asked for protection of Arvanitic language, and you said that you won't change that article. Then you go and vandalize the article about Albanian language. Please lad, think before you act. You offended Arvanites, you offended yourself and now you also offend Tosks and Ghegs with that attitude.
I hope you will correct your errors. MATIA 21:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, that was not vandalism on Albanian language because that edit was backed by reliable sources. As for my vote on the template deletion, I reserve my right to vote whatever I wish. You can't lay down the law by telling me what to vote. Also I will have to ask you to withdraw from forcing your POV on Arvanites. You have yet to cite sources. You will gain the apology you want when you cite sources. You say You offended Arvanites, you offended yourself and now you also offend Tosks and Ghegs with that attitude. That is not your place to say. I implement facts with reliable sources because unlike you, I cite my sources. You cannot say thet the edit on Albanian language was unjustafiable solely because it conflicts with your POV (I cited sources to support my edits on that page. UNESCO, Encarta and Ethnologue). REX 21:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

You proved with your vote that you have double standards, or as you would say if you were me: read the Encarta. You can do what you want, vote whatever you want - I never told you what to vote, you can even go in public naked.
Every one is responsible for his actions, that includes me and you.
If you do have Arvanites in you family, they can verify that your actions have offended them too, just ask them. I've read UNESCO's red book, it calls it Arvanitika language. I told you I will bring you many sources, I have gathered some and I'll get more in the next days. As for your formal apology, that you said you would make when I bring the sources, forget it I don't mind at all. You can apologise to your family, after you learn who were the Arvanites. Take care. MATIA 21:43, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA,
I would like to complain about your behaviour. It is now obvious that you have a concerted agenda to promote your Greek POV on Misplaced Pages. This can be demonstrated by your involvement in articles such as:

• Arvanites
• Republic of Macedonia
• Macedonian Slavs
• etc.

In all of these cases you are promoting what could be perceived as the Greek POV sometimes at the expense of NPOV. This is especially true in the case of Arvanites. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk Albanian. Are you saying that UNESCO is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian; that Ethnologue is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as Arvanitika Albanian; and that Encarta is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as a variant of Tosk? You can’t, because these are facts. Why do you object to my proposal so much? Everything that is said in it is true and yet you choose to reject it. If you have even an molecule of good faith you will tell me why you find my proposal so unacceptable. I really want to know. If you don’t tell me, I won’t know what to change so you will accept it and then we can end this tiresome discussion. You have to realise that by rejecting my sources above it will look like we are violating WP policies Misplaced Pages:NPOV, Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. This is something I will not allow myself to be seen doing.

Also, in the case of me voting in favour of the deletion of the template, you are unfair. I voted in favour of its deletion because I believe that it is unnecessary. That has absolutely nothing to do with what is said on Macedonian Slavs. I happen to believe that these people should be called Macedonian Slavs rather than just Macedonians because the latter is very misleading, unlike the former. Here in England most people do in fact call them Macedonian Slavs on many occasions. As for Encarta saying anythin I didn't know that, I never checked. Anyway, I believe that you were complaining because I didn’t vote the same way that you did. At least 16 people voted in favour of deletion. Would my vote have made any difference?

I hope that you will co-operate with me so that we can end our dispute.

Your friend,

REX, post delivered on 22:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

You can do what you want, vote whatever you want - I never told you what to vote, you can even go in public naked.
Every one is responsible for his actions, that includes me and you.

Been there, read that?

I don't care about your vote, it just proves your double standards.

If you don't have something useful to say, don't say it in my talk page.
If you don't understood what I wrote, go ahead and read it again.
My Arvanites friends tell me I have besha (μπέσα), you know the meaning of the word?
And finaly, if you don't know a thing about Arvanites, wait for my sources.

I believe all these are very simple and youll understand them easily. Take care.
MATIA 06:20, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

You have yet to tell me why you are rejecting my proposal. And if you saythat I have double standards, I guess that that makes two of us. REX 09:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hey

I'm back. Feel free to share your thoughts. Thank you for your kind words on my artwork. --FlavrSavr 14:29, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia related articles

Will you please justify your edit on the relevant talk page? Thanks. MATIA 15:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

My edit summary explained it. You reverted something as "vandalism" that was not vandalism but a content dispute. I restored the previous version because it was a good-faith edit, but I take no sides in the underlying content dispute. Also, please do not mark edits as minor when they are not. Thank you. Jonathunder 17:13, 2005 September 12 (UTC)

thanks Jonathunder

Thanks for you answer. The fact that they used the term is true. Check the edit's history and the talk pages. You may also find interesting some notes on the Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conflict#some_thoughts. MATIA 17:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Libel

MATIA, I suggest you read Slander and libel as well as Malice (legal term). I never slandered you as a right-wing as you say, I just said I detect right-wing politics (or something like that). I have never called YOU a right-wing. For all you know I could have been referring to someone else. Also, personal attacks are in reference to the person, not content (see Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks). You should have considered that before making the accusation. That accusation is entirely unjustified. Also, you should know that I don't appreciate wiki-stalking. REX 17:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

enough is enough

Are you aware of the greek proverb Τα λόγια σου τα χόρτασα και το ψωμί σου φάτο; (translation: I'm fed up with your words, eat your bread). I'm fed up with your words, calumnies, excuses, everything and I don't want anything from you (keep your bread as the proverb says for yourself, I don't want it). I told you that all the evidence needed for the complaint against you can be found on your contributions, you tell me it is wiki-stalking. I can't even laugh with your distortions of the truth, they are pathetic. MATIA 17:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

What is important that the personal attacks which you mention NEVER occured. Perhaps you should find out what a personal attack is. Nothing I ever did qualifies as a personal attack. You say that proof is on the talk pages. That is a lie. You are trying to convince people that there is something on the talk pages while in reality there isn't. I bet that you cannot produce even one example of my many calumnies as you call them! REX 17:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you stop exposing yourself, the kids are yelling: The king is naked! MATIA 17:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

You cannot provide examples of personal attacks can you? That is because they don't exist. If you provide one of my quotes which qualifies as a personal attack I will acknowledge it and retract it with a full apology. You can't though. Because you are lying. No such quotes exist. Are you sure that your friends call you a besha. I believe that they should call you a gënjeshtar. I reflects reality! REX 18:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

REX is an Albanian Chronographos 19:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC) (a reminder for MATIA)

Misplaced Pages Policy

MATIA, I'm afraid that it is you who are POV pushing. I am trying to make the article reflect reality. UNESCO says what I want to say. There is no evidence to even suggest that you want the article to say. I suggest you read Misplaced Pages policy because you are in violation of it. If you persist, you shall be reported. REX 20:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Then you 'd better report me before I report you, vandal! 84.254.3.47 14:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)