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	Is this really true? Obama Sr.'s[REDACTED] page has a picture of him with Obama taken in 1971. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->		Is this really true? Obama Sr.'s[REDACTED] page has a picture of him with Obama taken in 1971. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			== Flaming Liberal Anti-American Atheist Lunatic ==

			Why does the article not point this out? Why can't Misplaced Pages have a more accurate article, much like Conservapedia? ] (]) 15:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:

Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted.
On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance.

New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Jose Antonio Vargas (2007-09-17). "On Misplaced Pages, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet". The Washington Post.
Alison Stewart, Rachel Martin (2008-04-03). "'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare". The Bryant Park Project, NPR.
Brooke Gladstone, Bob Garfield (2008-04-04). "Editors in Chief". On The Media, NPR.
Eve Fairbanks (2008-04-09). "Wiki Woman". The New Republic.
Jesse Brown (2008-04-10). "Hillary's Wiki Defender". Search Engine, CBC Radio One.
Tom Foreman (2008-04-12). "Misplaced Pages Wars". This Week..., CNN.
John J. Miller (2008-04-21). "Liberal Web". National Review.
Kelly Heyboer (2008-05-28). "Clinton's entry in Misplaced Pages has a watchdog". The Star-Ledger.
Paul Murnane (2008-05-28). "one of two pieces aired". WCBS Newsradio 880.

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Jeremy

Why are changes like adding "mohammad" to his name at the top of the article keep making it in? Why can people edit the main page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.2.175 (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone who is able to needs to remove the vandalism from the section "Early Life and Career" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlizard19 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

One of the links under footnote 20 leads to a downloader virus my antivirus blocked. I dunno how to remove it (sorry...I'm inexperienced at this) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.76.126 (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Family External Link

New book "Obama - Yes We Can Hope" gives extensive new family background for Obama's family including many leaders part of that family ... including early USA leaders ... add as new external link [http://www.amazon.com/Obama-Yes-We-Can-Hope/dp/0595533841/ref=sr_1_2? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224627239&sr=1-2 Obama Extended Family] 76.192.0.146 (talk) 06:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.0.146 (talk) 06:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Overlinking

You know I've got a style question. Does it look to you like there seems to be an over abundance of inter-wikilinks within the article? It seems as if people have gone link happy and linked every word that might be misunderstood. Do you think that maybe we could go through and clean out some of the wikilinks that are unnecessary (I.E. easily understood?) Brothejr (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Edit: This is about the article's style not about Barack Obama or any the election controversies. Brothejr (talk) 00:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone added the "linkspam" today. I did not roll it back, but would quite agree if someone else were to remove all the links to common noun. LotLE×talk 04:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've got the majority of the "linkspam" that had been added last night. Brothejr (talk) 10:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Brothejr, your thread-opening post is hilarious - I wonder how many people checked your links. Thanks for the laugh - much needed around these pages these days... Tvoz/talk 00:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering if people would get some of the links. Sometimes it is nice to deal with something to do with style and not the never ending inserts of fringe theories and conspiracies! Brothejr (talk) 23:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

<snark>Oh yeah? Well, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim who pals around with terrorists, and is simultaneously a Christian extremist and the messiah! Plus, he's a Communist, a Socialist, and a follower of Saul Alinsky! Did you know he was born in Kenya? Or maybe somewhere in the Middle East, because he's Arab, not African American. And remember, he wants to steal the election by registering Mickey Mouse to vote! Aren't you scared yet? Well... Why the heck not?!?</snark> --GoodDamon 23:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary. I try not to follow politics too much (no stomach for it). Your summary is a great hoot. -- Suntag ☼ 04:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

← You betcha. Tvoz/talk 07:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Jr. or II?

Usually when a son has his father's name, the son's name ends with Jr. not II. as Barack's father was also named Barack Hussein Obama, and he has no other siblings named Barack Hussein Obama, and he's not named after an ancestor other than his father. the term appended to his name should be Jr. not II.

From: http://genealogy.about.com/b/2006/06/19/jr-or-ii.htm

"In my experience, the use of the term II generally indicates a son who has been named after a family member other than their father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. It is also sometimes used to identify the second male in a line of three with that name, although in that case Junior is usually the preferred term. As to whether it is required or not, I would tend to believe that it isn't. Terms such as Junior, II, III, etc. came into use to distinguish between two family members with the same name, generally implying that these family members are all still living. I believe in the case of little Jacob Miles Burnum, since the ancestor in question is five generations back in the family tree, it is really a matter of personal preference - the II being a formal way to indicate that there was a first, but not required since the great, great grandfather is long deceased. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrVonMalfoy (talk • contribs) 04:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Please review the FAQ at the top of this page. It's covered. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 05:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The FAQ does not address this. If the choice of "II" over "Jr." is explained there or anywhere else, I'd appreciate it if you'd link to it here -- it does seem like an odd choice and I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. --74.183.166.57 (talk) 07:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Finding no answers here, I investigated the matter, myself. Apparently "II" is the form used on Obama's birth certificate. I went ahead and added this information to the article's FAQ. --74.183.166.57 (talk) 23:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, if anybody can understand the Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. article. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I meant to get around to that. It ties in a bit with the conspiracy theories, but more so with the section in MOS about using people's complete formal legal name in bold the first time it appears (which is why we use "Hussein" despite some attempts to portray that as a negative thing), and from there on out the name by which they are most commonly known (hence, Barack Obama). Wikidemon (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Birthplace

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The reference for his place of birth; ^ "The truth about Barack's birth certificate". my.barackobama.com. Retrieved on 2008-06-13 leads to his own campaign website. Is it ok if I reference the Berg v. Obama case as well? http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/1/ & http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/18/0.pdf

Also, Was Obama born in Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, Queen’s Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, or Coast Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya?

Kingphilip2 (talk) 19:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If you can demonstrate that that case is a significant and notable event in the context of Obama's life (as opposed to his presidential campaign) then yes, it would be due some space in this article. SHEFFIELDSTEEL</font> 19:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Snagged" sounds better than "won" ?

What does snag even mean? Grsz 03:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" is far too colloquial/slangy for a featured article. Half the world won't know what it means here. ~ priyanath 03:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

which is why it has already been reverted--EmperorofBlackPeopleEverywhere (talk) 03:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" is another word for "grab" or "capture". Obama "snagged" the primaries, (Obama won/captured/grabbed the primaries). I changed it because I think it's more clear. I think it is more appealing and not as plain as won. I think it makes the article more interesting. Smuckers 03:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

But being so unclear, it does just the opposite. In my opinion, it also makes the victories seem illegitimate. Grsz 04:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Smuckers, but no. Rlogan made a one hundred percent correct revert - "snagged" is neither clearer nor encyclopedic. I find it hard to believe we actually have to talk about this, but just in case anyone claims consensus in favor of it, here's another voice against. It is not common usage, even informally, to say that someone snagged an election - in fact according to Merriam-Webster it means "to catch or obtain usually by quick action or good fortune" which would be like snagging tickets to a Yankees game or snagging a good parking space. Not an election. And I agree with Grsz that it devalues the victories. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Snagged devalues the efforts that went into the success. -- Suntag ☼ 04:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Offensive lines

Would someone please delete the offensive three lines that were inserted under the second heading in this article.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So not appropriate, respectful or even particularly civilized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.75.236 (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

~~What lines are you referring to specifically?--JayJasper (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)~~

The offensive remarks were self-reverted and are now gone.--JayJasper (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Derogatory remarks entered in last edit. Please remove.

Rjwildcat (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Barbara Johnson

The vandal self-reverted. They are gone. Please refresh the page. --GoodDamon 15:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Next time, please check the history, compare versions, then delete whatever vandalism was made. You don't really need to post a comment about vandalism; on a page like this, someone will see it within minutes and change it. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Erase the horrible comments throughout this document

Who ever is the CEO or person in charge of[REDACTED] need to correct and block this article from futer abuse. **** —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, what comments are you referring to? The article currently has semi-protected status, and what vandalism does occur is usually deleted almost instantly.--JayJasper (talk) 16:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are correct, it is now erased. There were some horrible things under the early life section. Thank you, God Bless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I too, get frustrated with the vandalism of this article. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Why is there no mention of the lawsuit filed against Barack Obama by Philip J. Berg which he alleges that Barack Hussein Obama is ineligible to run for President? This sounds like a very serious and important lawsuit to not be mentioned on Misplaced Pages. It also alleges that there is no records of Barack being born in Hawaii, and that his own family admits he was born outside the USA rendering him a non-US born citizen, incapable of U.S presidency. 71.112.196.141 (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because it's a obscure theory that no normal person seriously believes. Grsz 01:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Grsz, the issue isn't about what "normal" people believe. This is a FACT based information source. If 90% believed that President Bush was a space man from mars, and that the whitehouse was his ufo, would it then be TRUE just because 90% of the world believed it? Let me make this clear, I am NOT the same guy that made the original post here, but I myself have NEVER seen proof that he was born in the U.S., so this could be a VERY important thing. These articles need to be fair and balanced! Now I understand that most of the people around here are Liberal Democrats, but myself and people like myself are neither Republican nor Democrat and we would like to have ALL of the information on the subject, not just some of the information. TheСyndicate 19:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.188.221 (talk)

Closing this discussion per WP:FRINGE and WP:BLP. --Bobblehead 02:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Redirects from "Hussein Obama".

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

As a test, I just typed in "Hussein Obama" and it came here. This should be changed to "file not found" page or something. Whomever made this redirect is just trying to do a political GOP hit job on Senator Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 (talk) 00:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL, this claim of "GOP hit job" coming from a computer registered to a firewall protected server in Washington DC? Now thats laughable. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 03:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Says the GOP-defending IP coming from Texas. Ironic. Grsz 03:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Texas? Ummm...you mean Missouri right? But yes, I admit I'm fond of capitalism, 2nd amendment rights, the right to keep the money I earn, smaller government, and conservative values in general and proudly admit it :) 70.250.214.209 (talk) 03:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't going anywhere productive. The issue was addressed. Grsz 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: A request of deletion discussion was made a few months ago, archived here, regarding this redirect. The result of that debate was Redirect to Barack Obama. Therefore, if you want it deleted, you need to post another request on WP:RFD. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fringe citizenship/birth/lawsuit discussions

Collapsing previously closed discussion as it is moot now that the lawsuit has been tossed out. --Bobblehead 17:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Closing and consolidating as unlikely to result in any change to the article. --GoodDamon 18:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Return of the fringe birth theory Unfortunately, some edits by Ferrylodge returned the uniformly rejected stuff about fringe conspiracies and lawsuits over Obama's allegedly non-USA birth. In contrast to some other editors, FL inserted this stuff into a footnote, and with less breathlessly indignant tone. Nonetheless, fringe rumors are strikingly non-notable. Anywhere, but especially in a WP:BLP. Aggravating the bad edits, several other editors came along and made the wording worse by several small steps, each bad. Bad, bad. I've rolled back a few versions to the stable description of "Early Life" that no one has suggested any good reason to change here on talk. Please bring any proposed changes here first... but just skip any needless discussion of fringe theories that might get added there. LotLE×talk 06:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC) That's right, I merely augmented a footnote. For the record, here's what the footnote said, citing multiple reliable sources: "To counter rumors that he is not a natural-born citizen of the United States, his campaign posted an image of his short-form birth certificate. See "The truth about Barack's birth certificate". Obama Campaign. Retrieved 2008-06-13. According to FactCheck.org, "The document is a 'certification of birth,' also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns." See “Born in the U.S.A.: The truth about Obama's birth certificate”, FactCheck.org (2008-08-26). A lawsuit was filed in Hawaii in October of 2008 seeking a copy of Sen. Obama's long-form birth certificate. See Roig, Suzanne. “Suit targets Obama document”, The Honolulu Advertiser (2008-10-18). A similar lawsuit was filed in Pennsylvania. See Haberkorn, Jennifer. “Lawsuit questions Obama's eligibility for office”, Washington Times (2008-08-28)." Instead of this, the footnote now merely says: "The truth about Barack's birth certificate. my.barackobama.com. Retrieved on 2008-06-13." In other words, we're linking directly to the Obama campaign site, without any neutral statement like the one I presented from Factcheck.org. I have no idea why the Obama campaign is refusing to provide a copy of his long-form birth certificate. But footnoting two articles in reliable newspapers (Honolulu Advertiser and Washington Times) hardly seems like WP:Fringe to me. I would also note that the John McCain article mentions the controversy about his birthplace in the main text of that article (not just in a footnote).Ferrylodge (talk) 06:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC) If it's an actual lawsuit, and since debunked, I, for one, see no problem with the mention of it. It can certainly be written as NPOV. It may be a fringe theory, but not all things on the fringe violate WP:FRINGE. _{talk at me} 07:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It's a WP:BLP violation and has no basis in the non-fringe press. It may be worthy of a mention on a campaign related article as it is a campaign-related "event" but not in a biography. --guyzero \| talk 07:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Fair enough about the placing of the information. However, does a lawsuit, as it is written violate BLP? It's not an assertion, but a legal document. _{talk at me} 07:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Anyone can submit a lawsuit making any claim, legitimate or otherwise. The existence of a claim in a lawsuit is not grounds for its inclusion in a BLP. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC) (ec, agreed with Joshua) -- Every bit is judged individually for a BLP, right? And weighted to the relevance of his life, the notability of events, etc. The fact that this suit exists isn't really notable in his life, nobody is talking about it except fringe blogs and a few press mentions where they basically say "this false smear is going around the fringe blogs." It's not any more notable in his life than the endless "secret muslim" email chains and nobody will remember this lame lawsuit on November 5th. cheers, --guyzero \| talk 07:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It's already been deleted from the campaign sub-article.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Yes, one could file a lawsuit dealing with just about anything. However, I was asking if it indeed violate BLP, and second, if it the lawsuit itself passes WP:N, is there a problem with inclusion? _{talk at me} 07:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It doesn't pass WP:N or WP:FRINGE in relation to WP:BLP --guyzero \| talk 07:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Well, Lee Harvey Oswald was a finge nutcase, and that doesn't mean we remove him from the JFK article. Per WP:Fringe: "In order to be notable enough to appear in Misplaced Pages, a fringe idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory." Obviously, the Washington Times and the Honolulu Advertiser qualify, as does FactCheck.org. It's not like I was putting this in the text, people. Nor do I think it's likely that Obama is not a natural born citizen. Ferrylodge (talk) 07:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Sure, if the guy tries to shoot Obama we might include it. For now it's a non-notable tinfoil hat theory that a bizarre out of kilter individual scraped together enough money to file a federal lawsuit over. The filing of a lawsuit is not notable. The way it works in articles like this, two major 2nd / 3rd tier sources making a mention of something somebody claims is not enough to justify its inclusion. The fact he has amplified his claims by making a federal filing does not elevate them. Most anyting worth mentioning about Obama is covered in thousands of articles at a minimum. If 2, 5, or even 100 sources were the standard for covering this bio would be millions of bytes long. Wikidemon (talk) 07:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Nope, there were two lawsuits, one in Hawaii and one in Pennsylvania, that were described at length in reliable sources (Wash Times and Honolulu Advertiser). So, you're incorrect to say it's just one lawsuit or just one guy. And there are other lawsuits pending on the very same issue, such as one in Washington State. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to have our footnote direct people straight to the Obama campaign team, as if there isn't another side to this. And there is another side to this that is not fringe at all. The fact is, Obama's website merely presents his short-form birth certyificate. If he would bother to post his long-form birth certificate, then all of the rumors would cease. The long-form birth certificate is what all of the lawsuits in multiple states are seeking. And we can't even mention that a long-form birth certificate exists?Ferrylodge (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC) As I understand it, the state of Hawaii doesn't release long-form birth certificates at all; the short-form birth certificates are good enough for the US State Department, so why shouldn't they be good enough for anyone else (including Misplaced Pages)? That said, you're right that it's not best NPOV practice to reference a disputed point solely to the campaign website, so I've changed the ref to the FactCheck story. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Okay, thanks, I think that's a definite improvement.Ferrylodge (talk) 08:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC) The problem here is that I don't think a fringe theory violates WP:FRINGE de facto, just as making a point here doesn't always violate WP:POINT. This and this and this and this do not really constitute fringe journals, IMO. _{talk at me} 07:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Most of those are indeed reliable sources (I'm not sure about the Canada Free Press), but the real question is whether a mention of this lawsuit (and the supposed ambiguity it introduces about Obama's birthplace) in a summary article constitutes undue weight. I think that it does. Berg is at best a vox clamantis in deserto. If a judge decides that the case has merit enough to force Obama and his campaign to respond to it, then maybe it might merit a footnote. But as it stands now, I think even mentioning this as if it's disputed gives Berg more credit than is justified by the limited coverage of his lawsuit in reliable sources. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Any mention of this is undue weight, because this is a fringe character who files many such lawsuits. The Wash. Times article says he also filed lawsuits against Bush and Cheney "claiming they knew about the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks before they happened." ~ priyanath 14:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Mombasa, Kenya I edited the article to restore neutral point of view concerning the birth place. It is a place of an ongoing legal dispute and both possible places are mentioned. Incidentally, Berg's story makes perfect sense at this moment and he also has testimonies of Obama's black grandmother and half-siblings. --Lumidek (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC) This has been discussed before. Berg's lawsuit represents a fringe theory, and as such cannot be included in the article. WorldNet Daily is not a reliable source. Obama has produced his birth certificate (the oft-claimed difference between a "certificate of live birth" and a "birth certificate" is specious). Please do not re-insert this. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC) (edit conflict with next section) Hi, I've only skimmed the WP debate on birth, but I've been here a few times before. Please see the latest outbreak as of 10/21 in reliable sources: and . I considered the phrasing "apparently born ... but three lawsuits dispute this" with the WPTV link, which strikes me as sufficiently NPOV. I believe this October surprise will become necessary to insert somewhere. Please keep in mind that when three of your family members allege something to which ONLY the family as a group has firsthand knowledge, it is NOT a fringe theory by definition. The POV of the three members is significant and rapidly becoming more so. Thanks! JJB 14:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Let's look at those sources... To fight the birth rumors, the Obama camp posted a document issued by Hawaii confirming his birth there. Critics call it a forgery, although the nonpartisan FactCheck.org examined the original document and declared it legit. Also worth noting is a birth announcement in the Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, Honolulu Advertiser listing Obama's birth there on Aug. 4. Of course, it is possible that Obama's family, knowing he would seek the presidency one day, planted a false announcement. And, if you enjoy conspiracies, isn't it interesting that Obama is cutting short his campaigning this week to visit his grandmother in Hawaii? Is she really sick? Or is he trying to keep her quiet? Or is this silly stuff going to be kicked out of court forcing us to find better material next week? As has been said before, this "silly season" stuff is notable within the context of the presidential campaign, not Obama's life. In other words, this is the wrong article. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 15:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Court filing claims Obama not eligible to run for the president of the United States I hope that this will stop the useless debates above. The judge in Pennsylvania just ruled that Barack Hussein Obama is not eligible to run for the White House. He must also pay USD 48,300 to Philip Berg to cover all the expenses so far. --Lumidek (talk) 14:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Let's not jump on that court document immediately, on first glance I think it's actually Berg's proposed order and judge has not ruled. "MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PHILIP J. BERG." But it does demonstrate the flareup! JJB 14:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC) You might be right in which case I apologize. --Lumidek (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It's not signed, and it's attached to a motion. It's more or less impossible that a judge would issue such a ruling, but if he did you would hear about it through the mainstream press for sure. That's why we require secondary sourcing.Wikidemon (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Having reviewed WP:FRINGE and the FAQ, I continue to be of opinion that this has been mischaracterized as a fringe theory. This is a question over a historical fact, and the determination of prevailing or mainstream view should most certainly not be made by consulting the political class (among which it might be a POV of sufficient departure) but among the primary (family), secondary (biography), and tertiary (court) sources. IMHO and from a distance, those sources give the Kenyan position a minority, not a fringe, status. Thank you for your consideration. JJB 14:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC) How is it not fringe? From WP:FRINGE: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Examples include conspiracy theories, ideas which purport to be scientific theories but have not gained scientific consensus, esoteric claims about medicine, novel re-interpretations of history and so forth. Some of the theories addressed here may in a stricter sense be hypotheses, conjectures, or speculations." This is a textbook case. The overwhelming majority opinion is that the lawsuit is hilarious and unfounded. It has no bearing on Obama's life, and even the McCain campaign won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Berg's a crackpot, and while it's amusing that he filed a lawsuit he has no hope of winning and no standing to engage in, it's not exactly affecting Obama's life... or his campaign, for that matter. --GoodDamon 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Obama has not objected to the accusations, therefore legitimizing them legally according to obamacrimes.com74.212.31.26 (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)ED "obamacrimes.com" is Berg's own website, not a reliable source. I am constantly amazed at how many people believe this bullshit. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC) This article is the biography of Barack Obama. The place to discuss election talking points is Talk:United States presidential election, 2008. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Stop it with the "Do Not Edit this" crap! This is a discussion forum! This is NOT a freaking PRO-Obama WEBSITE! Take your political posturing somewhere else! The people here want some TRUTH. I don't know what the truth is, but I would like some REAL, NON-Biased information on the subject. I will tell you this much, The Birth Certificate posted on Obama is BRAND NEW, with forgery prevention paper, mostly used for Medical Prescriptions and is completely modern. I will not and nor should you, take this as ANY kind of proof of anything. Obama is a SENATOR! Do you not think that he, or one of his staff members could not just call in a favor and have someone print out a new Birth Certificate? No, he is going to have to produce the original, or a copy from around the same time period. I am 30, I have my original. My Mother has her Original from 1954. If this man is going to be our president, then he should at least be as responsible as I am, or my mother is. TheСyndicate 22:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.188.221 (talk) OK, I'll answer this point by point. Please read each wikilink in my response. This is a discussion forum - Yes, it's a discussion forum for improving this article. Fringe topics will never go into this article. Ergo, there's no point in discussing them. And bringing them up over and over ad nauseum is disruptive. Please see the FAQ at the top of this page for a good summary of just how disruptive: We specifically have an entry on it for Obama's place of birth, which you obviously haven't read. This isn't a pro-Obama website - No, it's not. You are correct. It is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias generally do not publish conspiracy theories about their topics. People want truth - You appear to want some version of it, at any rate. The rest of us are just very tired of answering the same questions over and over. You'd think the Elections Commission or the DoJ would make, y'know, a comment here or there if they thought maybe Obama wasn't born here. But maybe they're just too busy to notice? Shiny new birth certificate - Have you actually read any of the links debunking that? Any at all? Or are you just reading ObamaCrimes.com? Look... We use high-quality reliable sources on WP:BLP biography pages. Every single reliable source has made clear the certificate is legitimate. You are free to believe them or not, but you are not free to decide they are no longer reliable. Let me be blunt: Unless the lawsuit somehow succeeds -- perhaps because the judge suffers a bout of insanity -- it will have zero impact on this article, because it will have zero impact on Obama's life. Now... Read each link above. And this discussion is closed. --GoodDamon 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Collapsing previously closed discussion as it is moot now that the lawsuit has been tossed out. --Bobblehead 17:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Closing and consolidating as unlikely to result in any change to the article. --GoodDamon 18:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Return of the fringe birth theory

Unfortunately, some edits by Ferrylodge returned the uniformly rejected stuff about fringe conspiracies and lawsuits over Obama's allegedly non-USA birth. In contrast to some other editors, FL inserted this stuff into a footnote, and with less breathlessly indignant tone. Nonetheless, fringe rumors are strikingly non-notable. Anywhere, but especially in a WP:BLP.

Aggravating the bad edits, several other editors came along and made the wording worse by several small steps, each bad. Bad, bad. I've rolled back a few versions to the stable description of "Early Life" that no one has suggested any good reason to change here on talk. Please bring any proposed changes here first... but just skip any needless discussion of fringe theories that might get added there. LotLE×talk 06:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That's right, I merely augmented a footnote. For the record, here's what the footnote said, citing multiple reliable sources:

"To counter rumors that he is not a natural-born citizen of the United States, his campaign posted an image of his short-form birth certificate. See "The truth about Barack's birth certificate". Obama Campaign. Retrieved 2008-06-13. According to FactCheck.org, "The document is a 'certification of birth,' also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns." See “Born in the U.S.A.: The truth about Obama's birth certificate”, FactCheck.org (2008-08-26). A lawsuit was filed in Hawaii in October of 2008 seeking a copy of Sen. Obama's long-form birth certificate. See Roig, Suzanne. “Suit targets Obama document”, The Honolulu Advertiser (2008-10-18). A similar lawsuit was filed in Pennsylvania. See Haberkorn, Jennifer. “Lawsuit questions Obama's eligibility for office”, Washington Times (2008-08-28)."

Instead of this, the footnote now merely says: "The truth about Barack's birth certificate. my.barackobama.com. Retrieved on 2008-06-13." In other words, we're linking directly to the Obama campaign site, without any neutral statement like the one I presented from Factcheck.org. I have no idea why the Obama campaign is refusing to provide a copy of his long-form birth certificate. But footnoting two articles in reliable newspapers (Honolulu Advertiser and Washington Times) hardly seems like WP:Fringe to me.

I would also note that the John McCain article mentions the controversy about his birthplace in the main text of that article (not just in a footnote).Ferrylodge (talk) 06:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If it's an actual lawsuit, and since debunked, I, for one, see no problem with the mention of it. It can certainly be written as NPOV. It may be a fringe theory, but not all things on the fringe violate WP:FRINGE. _{talk at me} 07:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a WP:BLP violation and has no basis in the non-fringe press. It may be worthy of a mention on a campaign related article as it is a campaign-related "event" but not in a biography. --guyzero | talk 07:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough about the placing of the information. However, does a lawsuit, as it is written violate BLP? It's not an assertion, but a legal document. _{talk at me} 07:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Anyone can submit a lawsuit making any claim, legitimate or otherwise. The existence of a claim in a lawsuit is not grounds for its inclusion in a BLP. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec, agreed with Joshua) -- Every bit is judged individually for a BLP, right? And weighted to the relevance of his life, the notability of events, etc. The fact that this suit exists isn't really notable in his life, nobody is talking about it except fringe blogs and a few press mentions where they basically say "this false smear is going around the fringe blogs." It's not any more notable in his life than the endless "secret muslim" email chains and nobody will remember this lame lawsuit on November 5th. cheers, --guyzero | talk 07:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's already been deleted from the campaign sub-article.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, one could file a lawsuit dealing with just about anything. However, I was asking if it indeed violate BLP, and second, if it the lawsuit itself passes WP:N, is there a problem with inclusion? _{talk at me} 07:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't pass WP:N or WP:FRINGE in relation to WP:BLP --guyzero | talk 07:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, Lee Harvey Oswald was a finge nutcase, and that doesn't mean we remove him from the JFK article. Per WP:Fringe: "In order to be notable enough to appear in Misplaced Pages, a fringe idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory." Obviously, the Washington Times and the Honolulu Advertiser qualify, as does FactCheck.org. It's not like I was putting this in the text, people. Nor do I think it's likely that Obama is not a natural born citizen. Ferrylodge (talk) 07:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, if the guy tries to shoot Obama we might include it. For now it's a non-notable tinfoil hat theory that a bizarre out of kilter individual scraped together enough money to file a federal lawsuit over. The filing of a lawsuit is not notable. The way it works in articles like this, two major 2nd / 3rd tier sources making a mention of something somebody claims is not enough to justify its inclusion. The fact he has amplified his claims by making a federal filing does not elevate them. Most anyting worth mentioning about Obama is covered in thousands of articles at a minimum. If 2, 5, or even 100 sources were the standard for covering this bio would be millions of bytes long. Wikidemon (talk) 07:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope, there were two lawsuits, one in Hawaii and one in Pennsylvania, that were described at length in reliable sources (Wash Times and Honolulu Advertiser). So, you're incorrect to say it's just one lawsuit or just one guy. And there are other lawsuits pending on the very same issue, such as one in Washington State.

I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to have our footnote direct people straight to the Obama campaign team, as if there isn't another side to this. And there is another side to this that is not fringe at all. The fact is, Obama's website merely presents his short-form birth certyificate. If he would bother to post his long-form birth certificate, then all of the rumors would cease. The long-form birth certificate is what all of the lawsuits in multiple states are seeking. And we can't even mention that a long-form birth certificate exists?Ferrylodge (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, the state of Hawaii doesn't release long-form birth certificates at all; the short-form birth certificates are good enough for the US State Department, so why shouldn't they be good enough for anyone else (including Misplaced Pages)? That said, you're right that it's not best NPOV practice to reference a disputed point solely to the campaign website, so I've changed the ref to the FactCheck story. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, I think that's a definite improvement.Ferrylodge (talk) 08:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is that I don't think a fringe theory violates WP:FRINGE de facto, just as making a point here doesn't always violate WP:POINT. This and this and this and this do not really constitute fringe journals, IMO. _{talk at me} 07:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Most of those are indeed reliable sources (I'm not sure about the Canada Free Press), but the real question is whether a mention of this lawsuit (and the supposed ambiguity it introduces about Obama's birthplace) in a summary article constitutes undue weight. I think that it does. Berg is at best a vox clamantis in deserto. If a judge decides that the case has merit enough to force Obama and his campaign to respond to it, then maybe it might merit a footnote. But as it stands now, I think even mentioning this as if it's disputed gives Berg more credit than is justified by the limited coverage of his lawsuit in reliable sources. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Any mention of this is undue weight, because this is a fringe character who files many such lawsuits. The Wash. Times article says he also filed lawsuits against Bush and Cheney "claiming they knew about the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks before they happened." ~ priyanath 14:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Mombasa, Kenya

I edited the article to restore neutral point of view concerning the birth place. It is a place of an ongoing legal dispute and both possible places are mentioned. Incidentally, Berg's story makes perfect sense at this moment and he also has testimonies of Obama's black grandmother and half-siblings. --Lumidek (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. Berg's lawsuit represents a fringe theory, and as such cannot be included in the article. WorldNet Daily is not a reliable source. Obama has produced his birth certificate (the oft-claimed difference between a "certificate of live birth" and a "birth certificate" is specious). Please do not re-insert this. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict with next section) Hi, I've only skimmed the WP debate on birth, but I've been here a few times before. Please see the latest outbreak as of 10/21 in reliable sources: and . I considered the phrasing "apparently born ... but three lawsuits dispute this" with the WPTV link, which strikes me as sufficiently NPOV. I believe this October surprise will become necessary to insert somewhere. Please keep in mind that when three of your family members allege something to which ONLY the family as a group has firsthand knowledge, it is NOT a fringe theory by definition. The POV of the three members is significant and rapidly becoming more so. Thanks! JJB 14:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's look at those sources...

To fight the birth rumors, the Obama camp posted a document issued by Hawaii confirming his birth there. Critics call it a forgery, although the nonpartisan FactCheck.org examined the original document and declared it legit.

Also worth noting is a birth announcement in the Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, Honolulu Advertiser listing Obama's birth there on Aug. 4.

Of course, it is possible that Obama's family, knowing he would seek the presidency one day, planted a false announcement.

And, if you enjoy conspiracies, isn't it interesting that Obama is cutting short his campaigning this week to visit his grandmother in Hawaii?

Is she really sick? Or is he trying to keep her quiet? Or is this silly stuff going to be kicked out of court forcing us to find better material next week?

As has been said before, this "silly season" stuff is notable within the context of the presidential campaign, not Obama's life. In other words, this is the wrong article. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 15:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Court filing claims Obama not eligible to run for the president of the United States

I hope that this will stop the useless debates above. The judge in Pennsylvania just ruled that Barack Hussein Obama is not eligible to run for the White House. He must also pay USD 48,300 to Philip Berg to cover all the expenses so far. --Lumidek (talk) 14:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's not jump on that court document immediately, on first glance I think it's actually Berg's proposed order and judge has not ruled. "MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PHILIP J. BERG." But it does demonstrate the flareup! JJB 14:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You might be right in which case I apologize. --Lumidek (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not signed, and it's attached to a motion. It's more or less impossible that a judge would issue such a ruling, but if he did you would hear about it through the mainstream press for sure. That's why we require secondary sourcing.Wikidemon (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Having reviewed WP:FRINGE and the FAQ, I continue to be of opinion that this has been mischaracterized as a fringe theory. This is a question over a historical fact, and the determination of prevailing or mainstream view should most certainly not be made by consulting the political class (among which it might be a POV of sufficient departure) but among the primary (family), secondary (biography), and tertiary (court) sources. IMHO and from a distance, those sources give the Kenyan position a minority, not a fringe, status. Thank you for your consideration. JJB 14:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

How is it not fringe? From WP:FRINGE: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Examples include conspiracy theories, ideas which purport to be scientific theories but have not gained scientific consensus, esoteric claims about medicine, novel re-interpretations of history and so forth. Some of the theories addressed here may in a stricter sense be hypotheses, conjectures, or speculations." This is a textbook case. The overwhelming majority opinion is that the lawsuit is hilarious and unfounded. It has no bearing on Obama's life, and even the McCain campaign won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Berg's a crackpot, and while it's amusing that he filed a lawsuit he has no hope of winning and no standing to engage in, it's not exactly affecting Obama's life... or his campaign, for that matter. --GoodDamon 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Obama has not objected to the accusations, therefore legitimizing them legally according to obamacrimes.com74.212.31.26 (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)ED

"obamacrimes.com" is Berg's own website, not a reliable source. I am constantly amazed at how many people believe this bullshit. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is the biography of Barack Obama. The place to discuss election talking points is Talk:United States presidential election, 2008. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Stop it with the "Do Not Edit this" crap! This is a discussion forum! This is NOT a freaking PRO-Obama WEBSITE! Take your political posturing somewhere else! The people here want some TRUTH. I don't know what the truth is, but I would like some REAL, NON-Biased information on the subject.
I will tell you this much, The Birth Certificate posted on Obama is BRAND NEW, with forgery prevention paper, mostly used for Medical Prescriptions and is completely modern. I will not and nor should you, take this as ANY kind of proof of anything. Obama is a SENATOR! Do you not think that he, or one of his staff members could not just call in a favor and have someone print out a new Birth Certificate?
No, he is going to have to produce the original, or a copy from around the same time period. I am 30, I have my original. My Mother has her Original from 1954. If this man is going to be our president, then he should at least be as responsible as I am, or my mother is. TheСyndicate 22:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.188.221 (talk)

OK, I'll answer this point by point. Please read each wikilink in my response.

This is a discussion forum - Yes, it's a discussion forum for improving this article. Fringe topics will never go into this article. Ergo, there's no point in discussing them. And bringing them up over and over ad nauseum is disruptive. Please see the FAQ at the top of this page for a good summary of just how disruptive: We specifically have an entry on it for Obama's place of birth, which you obviously haven't read.
This isn't a pro-Obama website - No, it's not. You are correct. It is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias generally do not publish conspiracy theories about their topics.
People want truth - You appear to want some version of it, at any rate. The rest of us are just very tired of answering the same questions over and over. You'd think the Elections Commission or the DoJ would make, y'know, a comment here or there if they thought maybe Obama wasn't born here. But maybe they're just too busy to notice?
Shiny new birth certificate - Have you actually read any of the links debunking that? Any at all? Or are you just reading ObamaCrimes.com? Look... We use high-quality reliable sources on WP:BLP biography pages. Every single reliable source has made clear the certificate is legitimate. You are free to believe them or not, but you are not free to decide they are no longer reliable.

Let me be blunt: Unless the lawsuit somehow succeeds -- perhaps because the judge suffers a bout of insanity -- it will have zero impact on this article, because it will have zero impact on Obama's life. Now... Read each link above. And this discussion is closed. --GoodDamon 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kids Pick the President?

Why is it not mentioned about Barrack Obama's recent victory on Nickelodeon's Kids Pick the President?

72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

http://realitytvworld.com/news/barack-obama-wins-nickelodeon-kids-pick-president-poll-1015365.php

There's a source. It may seem trivial, but I do think that the opinion of EVERYONE is important in defining a person, especially an elected official.

72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, kids' opinions may not be adequately represented on Misplaced Pages. The Nickelodeon program may be worth its own article, but as a matter of WP:WEIGHT it's a fairly minor ingredient in the overall election pie. There are probably articles in every state and every country, for example, on how people in that location feel about the election, and we just don't have room to include all of the opinions. In fact, we have very little coverage of anybody's opinion. Most of that goes into the election articles, under polling.Wikidemon (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I don't usually do much to articles, just grammatical things I notice when I'm reading through. Figured this might be important since kids typically vote the way their parents do and this poll has been right 80% of the time.72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning it. I just created a new article, Kids Pick the President. I hope you like it. It could use some filling out, links, categories, and so on. It's interesting to see there are at least two other major nationwide children's votes this year. Too bad, but I still don't think kids opinions are relevant enough to be covered in this article. Maybe that will change if Nick has its way. Wikidemon (talk) 16:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Of absolutely zero significance to Misplaced Pages: Every time I scroll by this heading, my brain substitutes the shortened "Kick the President" for the section title (and side article). Perhaps my very selective dyslexia is politically motivated :-). LotLE×talk 21:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Conservapedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I know they are irrelevant, but if you wish to see some of the nonsense that the rightwingers are spewing out, have a look at Conservapadia.com's article on Obama. It's quite amusing. Also, should you feel inclined to write on their page, remember, ad hominem is all that matters to those people (evidentially). Aaberg (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead image change

Yet again. I really don't care which one is used, but I see no discussion of the change here. That makes me skeptical about it, even fairly opposed. We've been through such attempted changes way too many times, with consensus for a different image never being reached. LotLE×talk 18:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Preparation of the election

Wouldn't it be useful to start to prepare a page in a specific area that could be put on line rapidly once he is elected ? Hektor (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No, because there's no guarantee he will be. Please do not use this talk page for campaigning against or for Barack Obama. This is his biography, and any presumption that he will be elected President is premature. --GoodDamon 20:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A) I am French, I live in France, so I have nothing at stake in this election. B) If you want that can be done for both (main) candidates. Except if you think a third party guy can be elected, I think there would be no harm in this. Hektor (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Therefore I reformulate my proposal : couldn't we create Barack Obama/President, and John McCain/President and we just put the winning page on line once the result is known ? That would allow an expedited update process and avoid multiple simultaneous small mods at the same moment. Hektor (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a good idea to create those articles in Misplaced Pages article space. However, if you want to start work on article(s) in your User space, and invite other editors to collaborate with you there, that would be fine. Might I suggest User:Hektor/President Barack Obama and User:Hektor/President John McCain? Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Reacting to news is a purpose of wikinews, not Misplaced Pages. If Obama is elected president, we have 8 4 years in which to update the articles. There's no rush. In the mean time, you might want to consider posting a note at Misplaced Pages:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates if he is elected. -- Suntag ☼ 04:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a very nice principle statement. Unfortunately it will not withstand the test of reality. As soon as the election is announced hundreds of edits in any direction will be made. I still think that it would be much preferable to make a single well prepared edit and then lock the article for a few days. Hektor (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If Obama is elected

We should not describe him as president-elect, until after the Electoral College votes in mid-December. In the meantime presumptive president-elect would do. GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Follow the terminology used by the mainstream media, such as the Associated Press and the New York Times. They will probably follow the practice of many decades past and call the person with the majority of presumptive electoral votes the "president elect," as soon as the a candidate appears to have the states with a majority of electoral vots in his column and the loser has conceded. See Eisenhower called President-elect by the New York Times November 8, 1952, Roosevelt called "president-elect" in November 1932, Hoover called "president -elect" November 10, 1928, Wilson called "president-elect" Nov. 19, 1912 , Taft called "president-elect" Nov 22, 1908 , Grover Cleveland called "president elect" November 20, 1892, , Garfield called "president elect" Nov 24, 1880 , Grant called the "president elect Nov. 17, 1868 , Buchanan called by the term Nov. 6, 1856, etc. Edison (talk) 03:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the legwork, Edison - I was going to make the same point. We're getting ahead of ourselves, but I agree it's putting way too fine a point on it to insist on "presumptive" president-elect - common practice is to use "president-elect" once the victor is called. 2000 was an anomaly. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

C-Obamamide?

The guy is everywhere. -- Suntag ☼ 20:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No mention of Ayers controversy? No mention of extreme positions on Abortion and Gun Control?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing as usual. See FAQ, see incredible amounts of talk page history, blah blah blah. Let us know when a preponderance of reliable sources mention Ayers without a) debunking the "controversy" or b) simply reporting on the existence of the campaign talking point. Also be sure to let us know when the campaign talking point has a significant impact on Obama's life, because according to the available reliable sources, Ayers himself never did. --GoodDamon 04:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How can you possibly not mention this controversy? The man's name never even appears in this article. While it's only now getting heavy attention, it's been a simmering issue for over six months.

Obama's positions on both are at the far left end of the spectrum, along with many of his other positions. Why are these not given any attention? On gun control, Obama has voted against the right of self-defense, as well as in favor of numerous extreme measures restricting ownership, sale, and purchase. On abortion, Obama has voted in favor of multiple fringe positions such as allowing the direct termination of live-born abortions and up-to-full-term abortion.

So much for balanced, unbiased attention.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.219.28 (talk)

This article is the biography of Barack Obama. The place to document election talking points is United States presidential election, 2008. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 01:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I love how you spew "election talking point" towards every valid concern. The fact that he's an pro-abortionist and gun control advocate isn't campaign talking points...it's just fact from his own words and positions. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 01:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I love how you spew "valid concern" towards every election talking point.

That approach doesn't get us very far, does it? In fact, the unproductiveness of such confrontational dicussions is one of the reasons why the community has put this article under article probation. In a nutshell, we are all instructed:-

Do not edit-war;
Interact civilly with other editors;
Avoid making repeated comments unrelated to bettering the article;
Avoid making repeated comments about the subject of the article;
Avoid repeatedly discussing other editors, discuss the article instead;
Not much leeway in pages under probation, so basically be a model Wikipedian;
We actually know when we cross the line; we are all intelligent people;
Don't get worked up when you get subjected to remedies such as a temporary block or ban. Take a break and come back refreshed.

Note that these conditions are in addition to normal Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. And with those in mind, I'm going to ask you, nicely and politely, whether you have reliable sources discussing these questions. If not, the material cannot be included in wikipedia. If you do have some sources, the question is whether those sources treat these as important aspects of the election, or of Obama's life. Based on that, we can decide whether it's best to document what the sources say in this article, or in the election article. And we'll decide in a civil discussion, aimed at building a consensus. Seem reasonable? SHEFFIELDSTEEL 02:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See Bill Ayers presidential election controversy and Political positions of Barack Obama. -- Suntag ☼ 04:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The problem with Ayers

What I think the common complaint is about the Ayers controversy article is that it is practically orphaned. The only mainspace article in which a link to it can be found is Bill Ayers; there are no links from Barack Obama articles or 2008 Election articles which lead there. To clarify, I certainly don't think the controversy deserves mention in Obama's biography, any more than the cost of Palin's wardrobe would belong on her own page, but there should probably be a subarticle or template to which this article is linked. Any thoughts? »S0CO 06:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I would link it somewhere on the United States presidential election, 2008 page. It astonishes me that this hasn't yet been brought up there yet. If there's one article the manufacture of controversy related to Bill Ayers belongs, it's there. --GoodDamon 07:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and congratulations on posting the first thoughtful, well-reasoned question on the subject I've seen here! --GoodDamon 07:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

For the tinfoil hat crowd

The judge threw out your lawsuit re: Obama's place of birth ("ridiculous", "patently false"), so you can move on to another talking point. ~ priyanath 16:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

While you're right on the facts, perhaps the mode of delivery is less than ideal. Nothing's accomplished by mockery. _D.D.J.Jameson 16:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. Even considering the plaintiff's background (lawsuits against Bush and Cheney for the murder of 2,800 people on 9/11), and the nonstop vandalism here, my delivery was unwarranted. ~ priyanath 16:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I can understand the frustration. Dealing with conspiracy theories (and conspiracy theorists) can be maddening. _D.D.J.Jameson 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Normal modes of communication are lost on conspiracy theorists, or they would not be conspiracy theorists. We haven't found a good way to deal with them other than persistence, reverts, and if necessary, blocks. Once in a blue moon someone repetitively posing fringe material responds to the facts or to Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines. More likely they cry censorship and start making repetitive personal attacks on people. Who knows, taunting might work. Wikidemon (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I've dealt with conspiracy theorists a lot, both online and off. Taunting never works. It just seems to offer them justificatiib for their belief that they are persecuted. _D.D.J.Jameson 16:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I was mostly joking about that one. Nothing direct seems to work though. One just ushers them on to ranting somewhere else.Wikidemon (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I know what you mean. I've found -- at least online -- that the same people turn up believing the same fringe things across the various areas most deeply affected by conspiracy theorists. _D.D.J.Jameson 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Magna Cum Laude revisited

Jodi Kantor, the New York Times reporter who referenced his magna cum laude status, has stated that she read it on a curriculum vitae page at the University of Chicago which has since been taken down. She suggested that the Harvard Law School be contacted directly -- and they cannot verify it for privacy reasons.

So we have no existing corroborating document. So let's keep it off until we can actually verify that he did in fact graduate magna cum laude. The campaign refuses to release his transcripts so it's impossible to substantiate this undocumented claim.

Lordvolton (talk) 03:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no need. What you're describing would be original research on our part. When a source as reliable as a New York Times report makes a statement of fact, it's not our job to second-guess it. I'm sorry, but this has been gone over time and time again. The major newspapers all say he graduated magna cum laude? Then we say it. What's key here is verifiability, and we have definitely achieved that. --GoodDamon 04:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There are countless references that support the magna cum laude statement, including the Harvard Crimson which is cited at the end of that sentence. I've added two very reliable ones - The Guardian newspaper and Obama's article (signed) from Encyclopeda Britannica. ~ priyanath 04:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Lordvolton should note that WP:V requires that things be attributed to reliable sources such as have been cited for the magna cum laude, not that transcripts be examined by Misplaced Pages editors to verify it. Edison (talk) 04:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This pops up often enough that I'm beginning to think we need an entry on the FAQ for it as well. Look folks... We don't need to go in and make sure the freakin' New York Times is accurate in any statements of fact they make. There's a reason WP:RS specifically makes a clear delineation between primary and secondary sources, and it sure doesn't prefer primary ones. --GoodDamon 04:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, GoodDamon is correct pointing out that it is well sourced by reliable RS sources that Obama did in fact achieve magna cum laude. This does need to be included into the FAQ so we can all move on to more up-to-date fringe theories. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There's an archived discussion about this at Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive 36#magna cum laude (Lordvolton was the only one arguing about it). An addition to the FAQ would help, but is there anyone beside Lordvolton pushing this particular POV? ~ priyanath 04:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, not that I remember. Most of Lordvolton's argument the last time he brought it up was based less on the magna cum laude theory then the fact that Obama's campaign has not released Obama's transcript like Lorbvolton would like. I think he is hoping that there is something deep and dark hidden in the transcript that we all should know about and that the campaign is hiding. (Sound familiar to other theories?) Brothejr (talk) 12:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

First African-American nominated?

I am not clear on the claim Mr. Obama is the first "African-American" nominated...since his mother was Caucasian, is it proper to refer to Mr. Obama as "African-American" ? Should it more properly by the first "half-African-American."? It seems that if he is half African-American and is half Caucasian, could he not be also properly called "Caucasian."? Why is Mr. Obama always referred to as "African-American"? It seems with other groups, if one has one parent that is German, Irish, etc. and the other not, they are often referred to as "half-German" or "half-Irish" etc. For example, I don't believe Tiger Woods is necessarily referred to as "African-American." I am not clear here in terms of the biology/lineage issues here. Is there an expert in this area that could comment? Thanks.Vextration (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This question is asked once or twice a week so it might not pay to recreate the whole discussion. Please check the FAQ, and also search through the archive pages. In America, it is within the norms to call someone of mixed African heritage "African-American." The vast majority of the reliable sources use that term. Racial concepts and language are very complex, political, and subject to change over time - Misplaced Pages does not have the luxury of trying to be out front to improve the precision of the language and of people's thoughts on race. We simply follow what the norm is. Obama himself self-identifies this way, and most (but not all) people agree, so we are not dishonoring him or them by doing so. Wikidemon (talk) 05:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand the legalistic interpretation. However, it seems odd, like the elephant in the room. This is a case of prima facie evidence. Mr. Obama may refer to himself as African-Amercian, but he is only half, and as such one does not need a source to know this (although there are many sources out there that could be quoted to this effect).Vextration (talk) 07:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

What one person might call prima facie evidence, another might call original research. When both the individual concerned and the vast majority of the reliable sources agree on a description, it's not appropriate to push for alternative interpretations. Also, your interpretation suggests a biological view of race, and most scholars now agree that race is more of a sociological construct than a biological reality. As such, the patterns of racial classification aren't always logical. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Most who use the term are aware of the issue you raise yet consider Obama and others of mixed African and non-African ancestry to be African-American. In that sense one can be AA and mixed race at the same time, or both African and Native American, African and Hispanic, etc. Prima facie reasoning on matters of race will get you lost every time. Words too. The meaning of terms comes from usage, not deduction. Wikidemon (talk) 08:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean do many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master--that's all." Rharrykelly (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Early life and career

The following sentences about Obama's father given the impression that his father saw him only once from 1963 through 1982: "They separated when he was two years old and later divorced. Obama's father returned to Kenya and saw his son only once more before dying in an automobile accident in 1982."

Is this really true? Obama Sr.'s[REDACTED] page has a picture of him with Obama taken in 1971. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jk469 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Flaming Liberal Anti-American Atheist Lunatic

Why does the article not point this out? Why can't Misplaced Pages have a more accurate article, much like Conservapedia? 70.250.214.209 (talk) 15:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

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