Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:34, 25 February 2009

Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People

In case you're not watching Talk:Todd Goldman, I invite you to discuss the issue of reliable sources over at User:Superluser/Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People. Thanks! superluser_tc 2007 July 10, 05:24 (UTC)

The NOR policy does not apply to images

Re. your threat to remove my map of Greater Israel. From WP:NOR: Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy. If you feel you must go on with this threat, I will meet you at the images for deletion page. Emmanuelm (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if it sounded like a threat. Maps definitely aren't an exception from WP:NOR though. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Judea and Samaria

Please stop removing references to Judea and Samaria from articles. It is considered vandalism. Be sure to review WP:NPOV and provide sufficient reasons for your edits in the edit summary, which in your case is decidedly non-descriptive. -- Ynhockey 22:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, in most cases I'm just reverting changes that have gone unnoticed. Re the validity of the term "Judea and Samaria", you might want to join the discussion on this page. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Without going into the discussion (it looks like I've missed out on most of it, although I read parts right now), it appears that you simply misunderstand what the purpose of using Judea and Samaria is on Misplaced Pages. Here are some points to clarify:

1) Judea (often called Judean Mountains) is the region now mostly on the south of the West Bank. A subset of the Judean Mountains are the Jerusalem Mountains. There is no dispute about this point. Therefore, it does not violate NPOV or anything else to state that a certain locality is within the geographical area called Judea (which means that it's on the southern part of the West Bank). Same goes for Samaria (northern part).

2) Politically, Judea and Samaria is usually referred to as the West Bank outside of Israel, although the relevant Israeli use is not political, but administrative. As long as Israel uses the term 'Judea and Samaria Area' for administrative and statistical purposes, especially for Israeli localities within the area, you cannot discount this term as 'outdated' or whatever. It also does not violate NPOV because, again, it's an administrative term and no claim is made that this is the correct name of the location (see linked article). It is also indeed factual that Israeli localities in the West Bank are within the Judea and Samaria administrative district.

3) The West Bank isn't actually the same as Judea and Samaria, because it includes East Jerusalem, which the administrative district of Judea and Samaria does not (see image).

-- Ynhockey 09:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

1) The term "Judean mountains" may possibly be less disputed, but the article clearly said "the Judea area", which is indeed a nonrecognized toponym outside Israel, and that is what I corrected.

2), 3) "Judea and Samaria", the administrative regions, already have their own article. The names of administrative zones an occupation power chooses to impart on a territory are irrelevant on Misplaced Pages and don't override established place names anyway. I don't recall seeing all mentions of Basra suddenly change into "sector B" when Iraq came under occupation for instance. "Sudetenland" didn't become a universally recognized term either in 1938.

Would it be OK with you to move this section to the relevant article btw? MeteorMaker (talk) 12:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I live outside of Israel and I refer to these locations as Judea and Samaria. David Betesh (talk)

You probably agree that every tiny minority shouldn't have the privilege to override existing terminology with their idiosyncratic terms on Misplaced Pages. :) There is a discussion over at Judea that you might be interested in. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I have made a further change, and I think that you would agree with it and that it best represents the truth from the neutral and far point of view.David Betesh (talk)

Fine with me. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

great. David Betesh

WP:CIV

Please remain WP:CIV in discussions even/especially when in disagreement with others.

• "In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting" MeteorMaker, 13:51, 17 April 2008
• "That is a pretty ludicrous statement. ... I must conclude that you have failed." MeteorMaker, 10:20, 20 April 2008

The cited notes represent an increasing problem and I request that you take a breather when you feel an itch to get personal. Jaakobou 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That is good advice for us all. Misplaced Pages:Cool :)

Please re-read the lines that caused you to come here and create this section. You will find that they are not nearly as offensive as your truncated versions may appear. The full context also gives a different picture: in the first case, you had just before responded to a well-sourced refutal of your claims with a suggestion I'm emotion-driven. In the second, you had just before made a remark that not only completely misrepresented what I had said previously, it also accused me of "rejecting every source given on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews", which amounts to an accusation of anti-Semitism.

The non-truncated version of your first quote, which includes an additional (borderline) accusation of anti-Semitism:

Jaakobou: Seeing that you have strong feelings on this matter and others disagree, I'd suggest that you first provide some evidence to support your theory. I'm not sure what type of evidence would work since I find it to be a "Jews and anyone in contact with Israel don't have a say on naming conventions" theory, so I feel you should at least make an effort to persuade with something other than rejection of 'International/World Bank' sources.

MeteorMaker: In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting to hear your objective explanation how the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Bank of Israel Research Dept, the "Coordinator of Government Operations in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District", one former consultant for the Israeli government, and (then-)PM Yitzhak Shamir are not affiliated with the Israeli government in any way.

The non-truncated version of your second quote:

Jaakobou: Please work with others rather than reject every source given (above) on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews.

MeteorMaker: Your sources are sort of self-rejecting, if you indeed set out to prove that the term "Judea" is widely used by anybody else than Israelis - and 9 out of 10 turn out to have been written by Israelis. I advise you to not misrepresent my views and try to cast them in an anti-Semitic light btw, that does not reflect well on your credibility and appears uncivil. Now that you have confirmed that the term is used mostly in Israel, could you elaborate on why you advocate replacing a well-established English toponym with it?

Jaakobou: I feel this discussion has lost it's value; Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been accused of anti-Semitism as that was not my intention. I and a few other editors disagree with you regarding the interpretation of sources. To clarify, it is my opinion that anything published under "international" or "world", makes the point that it's an 'international' document, regardless if an Israeli or a pro-Israeli (Jew or not) was part of it's writing process.

MeteorMaker: That is a pretty ludicrous statement. Direct quotes by anybody in an "international" document become the accepted "international" view at the instant they're published? Or are you suggesting that verbatim quotes by, say, Yitzhak Shamir (one of your examples) should be censored when printed in a publication by the World Bank? I accept your apology for accusing me of "rejecting every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews". Don't confuse "Jews" and "Israelis" again. Should you overcome the feeling that "this discussion has lost its value", you are welcome back to try to support your claim that "Judea" is a valid term outside Israel. Until then, I must conclude that you have failed.

Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been verbally abused as that was not my intention. I have stricken out the indicated parts as you requested. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Pardon

I think you may have made some error saying you reverted an edit of mine from 4 May. I couldn't recall making the edit you suggested I've made, and indeed, I can't find making any edits on that date: Jezreel Valley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).
With respect, Jaakobou 20:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That has been corrected. My deep apologies for any inconvenience, I should have double-checked. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading you, but This edit summary feels somewhat combative and judgmental in my opinion (See WP:POOR). I'm only interested in a mention of Mt. Gilboa and the Samaria hills in the geographic layout of the location. Certainly, this is not an out of reach perspective and we can discuss a way to incorporate my desire into the article.

I'm not a geography expert, but I believe certain portions of the Samaria highlands area are within' Israeli territory so I wasn't sure on placing a "XXX , in the West Bank" and I'm fairly certain Mt. Gilboa is not considered in the west bank, but I'm open to be corrected on that one.

In general, I'm open to suggestions that satisfy my interest on this one.

With respect, Jaakobou 05:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The northern slope of Mt Gilboa is in Israel according to the coordinates given, while the peak seems to be on the Palestinian side of the border. Depending on the definition, a minor part of the "Samarian highlands" may be in Israel proper, but no amount of discussing will change the fact that the overwhelming part is in the West Bank. If I sounded somewhat combative and judgmental pointing that out, I apologize. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to make the argument that the Samaria highlands are not in the West Bank, I simply wasn't sure on how to phrase the text and assumed you'll possibly correct it rather than revert. Anyways, I'm open to suggestions on this. Jaakobou 06:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I did correct it rather than revert and incorporated the factually accurate part of your change, though the line may need another revision now that we have established that Mt Gilboa lies on the border, with the peak inside Palestinian territory. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

On the location of Thapsacus

Hi MeteorMaker.

Regarding you pushing my article to the talk page. Well it was my first attempt at a major updating of a Misplaced Pages article. I observed that the original article was so out of date that it needed major reforms. I tried to update this page with information that was more up to date. I notice you have kept some of my points but have restored most of the passages I tried to update. I observe that you say I am pushing "a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus" and that you have merged my points "minus the unsourced claims". Well let's compare these two statements alongside a passage your restored. Take the first paragraph under Location, bit by bit.

Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor? Name one ancient source that can verify this statement. Who said it is the modern town of Deir? (I suppose they mean modern Dayr az Zawr). Anyone with geographic sense would immediately see the impossibility of it being anywhere near ancient Thapsacus. Name one modern historian who would even support such a claim. And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?

What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.

At last a reference to a location, even if only a tertiary source. And guess what, they get it right. But does this satisfy the author of the article? No, his bias will not allow him to accept this. So he adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".

Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus. It only mentions it, in passing, as a place through which Alexander marched on his way to Gaugamela.

So, on your criticism.

Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.

Do I make "unsourced claims"? Are you are trying to compare me with the numerous unsourced claims in your restored paragraph? Have another look at the mass of references I gave. All the ancient sources were quoted and citied. Most of the modern citations were from academic journals in the field of ancient history.

Joe Baker (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Joe, congratulations on an ambitious rewrite, and far be it from me to try to stifle your enthusiam. As you know, everything on Misplaced Pages needs to conform to Wkikpedia verifiability rules. Rather than disgrace your text with a bunch of ugly tags, I just parked the unsourced parts on the talk page pending presentation of verifiable sources, notably of the claims made in the lead. There are also some conclusions in the last paragraph of the Location section that give the impression of being original research, hence the quarantine until you can find reliable sources.

I should add that your rewrite was used as ammunition in defense of an earlier (and pretty fringe-science) version of the map that is now included in the article, and I admit I may have become a little less lenient than usual as a consequence. Your rewrite of the References section was in many ways an improvement, though it should be noted that it did not add new information to the existing section, deleted some useful information, and contained the unsourced claim "1 Kings 4:21 names it as the extreme (northern) border city of the kingdom of Solomon. The passage is an early Persian period insert and essentially makes the extent of Solomon's kingdom coincide with the then contemporary Persian province of Ebir-nari." (there is a ref, but it doesn't say that).

You are correct that the article had several flaws, and my partial revert should not be seen as endorsement of them. Now for your objections:

• "Its exact location is unknown but is said to be 100 miles north-east of Tadmor. " Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor?

It's from Easton's Bible Dictionary: "Thapsacus, a great and wealthy town on the western bank of the Euphrates," about 100 miles north-east of Tadmor." The original version of the article had a footnote reference that apparently got lost later on when the article grew. It should be restored, since Easton is the source in several places in the article.

• Who said it is the modern town of Deir? And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?

Correct, it did lack some sources originally, and that should be remedied. I checked all original claims before I performed the partial revert and found them legit (in the Misplaced Pages sense of having been made by several reliable sources), but didn't think of adding the refs to the article. Here is one source of the Deir claim anyway (there are better ones, but I don't have time for a deep search right now): and two of the Suriyah: , . As a bonus, one for Dibsi Faraj and one for nearby Meskene.

• "Another possible location described by Conder in Easton's Bible Dictionary of 1897, however, identifies this place with Khurbet Tafsah, some 6 miles west of Shechem; this however is unlikely." What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.

I left it in because it's properly cited and conforms to Misplaced Pages standards, but a place near Shechem (in the modern West Bank) does seem unlikely, as one editor (somewhat OR-like) has pointed out. I'm not an expert though, so I can't judge how much merit the hypothesis has that identifies "the great river" of the Bible with Jordan. Perhaps there should be a separate section on the identification Tiphsah - Thapsacus, since this hypothesis clearly concerns Tiphsah rather than Thapsacus.

• "There is further suggestion that the town may be associated with Carchemish however this may be unlikely as the towns referenced as Europus and Amphipolis are separate and there is no other indication that the cities could be the same as Thapsacus." adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".

That is not a plain reading of Pliny, as you note the actual text says "Europus formerly Thapsacus, now Amphipolis". You point to a hypothesis that a word got lost in the middle, but I haven't seen any indication that that view is more accepted in is mainstream science than the original one, so there are no grounds to remove all mention of it.

• "Another reference does suggest that the town was near "Jarablos", another name for Carchemish. "Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus.

The sentence "Alexander crossed the Euphrates at Thapsacus (near Jarâblos)" seems to have a lot to do with the location of Thapsacus, since we know where Jarâblos was. A few miles from what you have determined to be the "correct" location, admittedly.

• Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.

I base my "Minority" assertion on nothing more sophisticated than a cursory web search, so I may be wrong and the current mainstream history view may indeed be that Thapsacus = Carchemish, and all other hypotheses may consequently have been discarded. Such a statement would have to be supported with rather good sources, naturally. Unless you can provide that, other editors may decide your article gives undue weight to one hypothesis among many.

Incidentally, the Graslin and Lemaire hypothesis, on which you base most of your argument that Thapsacus = Carchemish, struck me as pretty flimsy - it merely conjectures that Carchemish may have been Tapsuhu because Carchemish used a unit of weight that was called the "Carchemish standard" and Tapsuhu one called the "Tapsuhu measure", plus an Aramaic name was found in a text that was redacted in Tapsuhu, and that Tapsuhu may have been Thapsacus because Tapsuhu and Thapsacus sound similar. It then states as bald fact that the biblical Tiphsah = Thapsacus, which to my knowledge is far from proven. It does acknowledge that the exact location of Thapsacus was and is unknown though. Still, it's a proper cite, so I left it in.

If it's OK with you, I would like to move this conversation to the Thapsacus talk page. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi MeteorMaker. Yes, okay on placing these on the Thapsacus talk page. And I still have problems with the present article, especially those sources which are some 100 to 100+ years old. The Easton references should all be removed. They are so old that they do not even know the location of Carchemish or of its 1000+ year history prior to its Biblical appearance. It claims Menachem actually capture Thapsacus on the Euphrates - It may have been an educated guess back then, but try and find anyone today who would agree with their old interpretation.

And why bring in a reference to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica (even more so why make it the sole entry in a section headed "Modern References")? It refers to Peters' 1889 identification with Dibsai. Can't you get a more update reference?. As for the other identifications you list above - most are based on generic biblical references who are renowned for using old sources (and never updating these sources). But the Dibsai one is good. Why? Because it's from an academic journal in the field of ancient history. In fact it was one of the references I deliberately used (note 8 - and all the information in that note was from the article) - but you removed it. Only the first page is available on the web. Go to a university library and read the whole article - they reject the identification of Dibsai with Thapsacus.

Also get rid of note 10. It leads to a defunct site and if you try and search there for Thapsacus, it's only hit is this page. Joe Baker (talk) 10:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I've been away. You make many good points, and I'm confident the article will be much improved with your input. I agree it may potentially be a problem that the bulk of the present article is taken from century-old sources, but I have not seen much evidence that the hypotheses presented have been conclusively superseded by never ones. Your main source, Graslin and Lemaire, acknowledge that (as of 2004), "la location de Thapsacus reste discutée", ie no particular hypothesis is yet settled on. They (and you) make a case for Carchemish, but that is not what a Misplaced Pages article ideally should be - all hypotheses should be given space, as long as they cannot be shown to be permanently discarded by modern science. Sources such as your note 8 of course help, if it indeed disproves one of the hypotheses (Dibsai) conclusively.

Easton does (albeit tentatively) place Carcemish in the spot where we know today it was, so I don't think the argument that it's "too old" and therefore necessarily wrong holds much water. He identifies the "other" biblical Tiphsah (the one Menahem captured, in the present-day West Bank) with Thapsacus, but he also gives space to an opposing hypothesis, one that you held up as proof of the original WP article's inaccuracy. Much confusion could be avoided by creating a separate section on the identification Thapsacus = Tiphsah, as I have suggested. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:STALK

You appear to have followed User:Amoruso to four different articles solely for the purpose of reverting him. This kind of behavior is a violation of WP:STALK; please desist. Jayjg 01:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not reverted him where reverting wasn't called for. Take a look at the actual edits and you'll probably agree with me. As you know, we also happen to have quite a few watchlist pages in common. :) MeteorMaker (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

These were articles that he had edited today, included ones you had never edited before, and your first action was to revert him. Please don't take others for idiots, and please don't stalk him any further. Thanks. Jayjg 01:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

When one user (who has been banned for two months) returns and makes a large number of controversial and NPOV-violating edits, it's every responsible Wikipedian's duty to subject his edits to basic scrutiny. I don't see anybody else restoring his edits either (with the exception of the King David Hotel Bombing article, which admittedly was a borderline case). I'm sorry if you got the impression that means I am taking you and Amoruso for idiots.MeteorMaker (talk) 06:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You have a 3RR violation on Deir Yasin Massacre. If you revert again, I will report it. The Category:Israeli Atrocities is up for deletion as it is. Sposer (talk) 13:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not have a 3RR violation on Deir Yasin Massacre or anywhere else. Thanks for notifying me of the cat deletion nomination though. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Btw, Sposer, I'm curious: were you the one who made the threat that necessitated the temporary takedown of the article? If so, roughly what was the nature of the threat, which I suppose was directed at me? MeteorMaker (talk) 13:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what the threat was. I would never do that.Sposer (talk) 15:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Meteormaker, you were caught in a lie by user:Jayjg - which is it, did you watch the same page or did you stalk? I need this information if I report you. You will banned for your personal attacks and stalking in the future. You are in violation of WP:STALK. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter. Amoruso (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Where do you see a lie, stalking, tendentious editing, disruptive behavior or personal attacks on my part, Amoruso? With your accusations and threats, you seem to be in violation of WP:AGF.MeteorMaker (talk) 05:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

In your behavior we see it, as proven by user:Jayjg above and your admission. I complied with WP:AGF until you were caught in the lie now. Amoruso (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you point to a tangible example of the things you accuse me of, Amoruso? Else, kindly refrain from making personal attacks. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Like Jayjg explained above, you were found in violation of WP:STALK. You said you were watching those pages, then came up with another excuse - that you monitored me. Amoruso (talk) 15:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Not correct, I suggest you read it again. It's no secret that I reverted a couple of your edits because they were in clear violation of WP:NPOV and/or lacked sources. Additionally, you made substantial changes without trying to build consensus first. Any editor has a right (or even a duty) to revert under such circumstances. Having well demonstrated your penchant for that kind of edits in the time before your two-month ban, you should not be surprised that other Wikipedians monitor you when you return. That does not constitute a breach of WP:STALK, which clearly states that the reverts must be "with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor" It should also be noted that most of the reverts are still standing.

Hope that cleared it up for you. Most editors do not take accusations of lying lightly, so I advise you to be less libelous in the future. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, the criteria used by User:Jayjg against Meteormaker, were they applied to User:Amoruso's recent editorial irruptions on pages I edit and have on my watchlist, could be equally construed as violations of WP:STALK. On one page where Amoruso has edited singly against an old edit of mine, canvassing occurred and resulted in a page locked in his favour. On my page User:Amoruso, while expending much energy on warning me against violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, has successively diagnosed me as an egotist, someone with an inferiority complex, someone with a superiority complex, and a possible paranoid. So if this nice little operation to fix Meteormaker proceeds further up the wiki judicial system, I invite all above to examine User:Amoruso's full record with all editors over the last two days. It is pertinent to any accusations laid against Meteormaker, and I will be quite happy to assist with further details. Nothing, contrary to wild assertions on the Arbitration Notification page, has been proven, and one would do well to stop this strategic whingeing, use of allies, potential waste of time for administrators. Big blokes aren't supposed to whine, especially about piddling matters.Nishidani (talk) 21:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the issue is confused. What Nishidani saying here is irrelevant to WP:STALK of course because he's just upset over a content dispute. I don't know how that is related. Nishidani has been very uncivil to me for some reason for the past few days I have to say. Me and other users have had issues with the lead in an article after a recent edit by Nishidani. Please don't confuse matters. Meteormaker was simply caught in a lie. He said that he stalked me because we had the same pages watched. user:Jayjg explained to him that some of edits were on pages he never edited before - clear proof of stalking, and then Meteormaker said that he was monitoring me - i.e. changed his story.. that's all there's to it. I actually forgive him. Amoruso (talk) 21:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Amuroso does seem to be a bit of a stalker himself. Further evidence, from his contribs log:

• 03:33, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city)‎ (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
• 03:30, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida‎ (already hebron.) (top)
• 03:29, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit‎ (→References: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
• 03:28, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Joseph's Tomb‎ (→External links: Nablus, Geography of the West Bank]....) (top)
• 03:27, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria‎ (Geography of the West Bank) (top)
• 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Kiryat Arba‎ (→References: Hebron more specific) (top)
• 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim‎ (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
• 03:25, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho‎ (→External links: already in jericho - more specific)
• 03:24, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb‎ (already in a sub-cat) (top)
• 23:37, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:MeteorMaker‎ (→WP:STALK)

All these changes are reverts of changes I've made:

• 21:46, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:45, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:42, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Kiryat Arba‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Joseph's Tomb‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:13, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:08, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city)‎ (cat added.)

To his civility issues, his history of making baseless accusations, and his contempt for Wiki rules that rendered him a two-month ban, we can apparently add at least a slight amount of hypocrisy. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

These were not stalks. I edited in the past on many/most of these articles, and of course a CAT wrongly filled is basically one edit, one link. The two month ban was about a suspicion of sockpuppeting never proven definitely. It is also immaterial to your current behavior. Amoruso (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

. Two counts of following to previously unedited articles, exactly the same as my alleged "stalk". I'm confident you will be less quick to throw accusations around in the future. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. Following a link on a cat like I explained is different than following a link on a person (aka stalking). You're just embarrassed that you were caught lying to an administrator. But like I said I forgave you, just don't do it again. Amoruso (talk) 23:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Your initial belligerence ("I report you. You will banned!") seems to have waned a bit, which is good. You're still making baseless accusations, which is a violation of certain WP rules you no doubt have heard of, but since you keep repeating you "forgive" me, I hope we have seen the last of them now. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You should refrain from arguing after officially being warned by an administrator. That's the only true thing that happened here. You stalked, you lied, the incident was indeed reported, and you were warned by an administrator.Amoruso (talk) 00:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that I should run and whine about your "stalking" to the admins too. Even for a superhuman admin, the less than 20 minutes between your filing your complaint and his reaction does not allow for a particularly thorough investigation, so my guess is that Jayjg just took your word for it. As we have seen, the most vital criterion for stalking ("the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor") was not fulfilled, nor was the "following around improperly" (for another reason than fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, of which there tends to be more than a fair share in the edits you make). Your persistent accusations of lying, in addition to the allegations of stalking, does not reflect well on your reputation. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Your excuses (already rejected by Jayjg above) are noted. Just don't stalk (and subsequently lie) again. Amoruso (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

If I had the inclination, I could report you for your constant violations of WP:CIVIL, WP:ETIQ, WP:HARASS and WP:AGF and your documented history of making false claims (like these on the admin noticeboard:)

"This user, who for some reason doesn't have a user page, has been stalking me persistently. He reverts me on all pages, trying to provoke RV wars. and that's the only thing he does in[REDACTED] apparently. See his "contributions" - all stalking me - I've asked him to stop but he seemed to ignore it.".

The admins (like most other people) have better things to do however. If I were you, I'd keep my fantasies to myself, and everybody would be much happier. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as you refrain from stalking again, I'm sure user:Jayjg won't ban you for this one time. Cheers, Amoruso (talk) 13:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't engage in stalking or any other uncivil behavior. Unlike you , I have never been banned, and the chances you will ever see that are slim or nonexistent. Further provocations or other breaches of WP:CIVIL on your part will be reported. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You've been warned by an administrator and you're playing as if you did nothing wrong. That means I may have to report it again. Amoruso (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You've been banned for two months and you're playing as if you did nothing wrong. I'm confident the potential consequences at this point of making further false allegations are clear to you. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Unlike you, I've been blocked for a suspicion. You've been warned. If you ceased your stalking, then the discussion is over. Amoruso (talk) 14:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You've been bannedblocked numerous times , for several kinds of violations. Your civility issues are legendary here , and are compounded by your belligerence and provocative behavior. This section will serve as further evidence against you if it comes to reporting. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't deny being blocked for 3RR in the past. I don't know why you're so defensive. I just wanted to be sure you understood the warning by the adminstrator and that you'll stop stalking. Amoruso (talk) 15:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, I don't stalk or engage in disruptive behavior. You have been blocked for disruptive/agitatory editing, 3RR (twice), incivility, and very abusive sockpuppetry. You have narrowly escaped blocking on several other occasions. Your next reply will be ignored and possibly deleted, if it's just another variation on the same theme. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Please take cared of this as well

Dear MeteorMaker,

Please take care of Promised Land as well!

IMHO this article should be main article for Land of Israel.

Thanks --Submitter to Truth (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Lehi

Your further comments here would be appreciated. Thanks, TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Category:Jewish terrorism

Hello. Concerning inclusion in Category:Jewish terrorism please see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#Category:Palestinian terrorists and Category:Israeli terrorists. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Sign your recent J&S edit

Because we had an edit conflict, and I outdented too. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Lots of material now. Can't possible be dismissed with the standard broken record "OR" accusation. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be pleasantly surprised, but will not hold my breath. We gotta wait for the rest of the camera crew, and hopefully some with NPOV too. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 15:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive editing on Samaria

Hello, MeteorMaker.

I've examined the history of the now protected Samaria, and the (vast) discussion on the talk page regarding your controversial edits to the article. I'm afraid I have to agree with the consensus on the page that you are being disruptive by your repeated attempts to force your terminology onto the article.

I have no opinion on the correctness of your position, but the fact remains that it is overwhelmingly rejected by the other editors and that, since Misplaced Pages relies on consensus to reach neutrality, editors who regularly go against consensus are disrupting the process. You may wish to avail yourself of the various avenues of dispute resolution, including possible mediation, in order to bring your proposed edits to a wider audience for reconsideration.

Please consider this a warning that under the ArbCom decision Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

In particular, further attempts edit that article, or any other article in the area of conflict, against consensus will lead to sanctions being imposed on you. — Coren  05:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is long overdue. I don't have much time this week though, so that will have to wait.

In Talk:Samaria, I only see a consensus of User:Jayjg however. The other two editors that were against bringing this WP article in line with the other online encyclopedias seem to have accepted the fact that their position simply doesn't match with reality, User:Canadian Monkey explicitly so , albeit perhaps inadvertently. It should also be noted that the third of those editors is openly partisan .

Claiming consensus for a position that has been shown to clash with WP guidelines and completely lacks reliable sources is the archetypical system gaming, particularly if it's in order to suppress an exceptionally well-sourced fact for purely ideological reasons. I strongly feel that the facts and nothing else should be discussed, like in academia, and that a two-person advantage in numbers shouldn't be a license to create wikiality. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please understand that the prohibition against edit warring is entirely independent on how right or wrong the various positions are; it's about disputes ending up in articles and making them unstable. — Coren  15:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

How to solve "Use of word Samaria" problem

I get the uncomfortable feeling that MeteorMaker has both the logic of his claim (Samaria barely used outside Israel) and WP:Policy on his side (use English names, NPOV etc). Clearly, I've not examined more than a portion of the TalkPage discussions, but I can see Jayjg re-introducing material/clips that are claimed (rather persuasively) to have been refuted. Under these circumstances, uninvolved admins should be examining, explaining and defending policy - or judging the quality of the discources (ie identifying disruptive conduct), not adjudicating on content disputes which (we're constantly told) admins cannot do.

My suggestion to MeteorMaker is to build a table of the examples offered, with justifications and refutations in separate columns. Either Ian Lustuck is an Israeli or he's not, either he prefers the use of Samaria or use of the West Bank, etc. Without a very careful examination of the issues I can't be sure what's going on - I and others would have a much clearer picture if the evidence was laid out carefully.

PR 11:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. The implementation will have to wait a while though, I don't have much time ATM. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That's sad - you've been accused of disruptive editing (and that could even be true). But what I think I'm seeing is your powerful case being obstructed by people who are wiki-lawyering in order to damage articles. PR 19:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Please review WP:NOR and WP:NPA. Jayjg 03:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Done . Thanks for the suggestion, PR. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposals for a Palestinian state

The page talks about Palestinian state, not Palestinian Country/area/region. There are problems with bot on others wiki. Please correct the definition as i did.--Lord Hidelan (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I took it for vandalism. A clarifying note would have helped. Will revert. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem, i see ;-) You can find a clear list here (i hope): Proposte per uno Stato di Palestina —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Hidelan (talk • contribs) 20:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

3RR warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NoCal100 (talk) 22:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not engaged in an edit war at Israeli Settlements or anywhere else. Thank you for your kind note anyhow. I have reverted three entirely different edits on that page and each time the reason has been clearly stated:

• Sources shown to be irrelevant to argument or contradicting it altogether. See talk .
• Too confusing. Take it to talk and maybe we can bend it to shape.
• Misplaced Pages (or derivatives of it) do not qualify as WP:RS.

MeteorMaker (talk) 23:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the were different edits, nor does it matter if you have given a reason for it - a revert is a revert. Please stop, or you are likely to get blocked. NoCal100 (talk) 23:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Samaria etc

I don't know what to do with these people (or rather what to do about what they get up to). They push obscure and/or anachronistic, politicised terminology into articles as if it were mainstream or equivalent to the current mainstream, and then start waving WP rules at you triumphantly as soon as they manage to google a couple of sources which can be interpreted as backing up their worldview, even when 100s more contradict it. Part of me wants to just walk away and save my time and energy over what is after all only an odd word here and there, but then I ask myself - hang on, why should people get away with inserting this minority viewpoint propaganda into what is - for better or worse - perhaps currently one of the world's main information and reference resources? Just a message of support for an occasional fellow-struggler ... --Nickhh (talk) 23:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

All it takes for wikiality to happen is for a few good men to do nothing. The struggle is tedious and time-consuming, but I must admit I also find it strangely amusing sometimes. As a bonus side effect, the complete lack of substance in their arguments gets mercilessly exposed, causing embarrassment for their entire coterie. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You could understand it perhaps if it were over a far more complex issue, or one which is open to interpretation or analysis, such as the causes of the Six Day War or whatever. But how can people seriously insist on forcing huge debates and edit wars over whether "Samaria" is the standard, mainstream and current way of referring to the northern West Bank (or part of it)? As I've suggested, it's as mad as English people insisting that Birmingham is a "city in Mercia". If I was really cynical (or even paranoid) I would merely assume that this was some sinister tactic to wear all the sane contributors down so that they lose the will to do anything else here. I looked through every index in nearly every book I have on the Middle East yesterday - written by a wide range of people, including Israelis - and noted that only one even has an entry for "Samaria" (flagging up one use of the word in the entire book), while one other has - again - one entry for the combined phrase "Judea and Samaria", but then simply says "see West Bank", kind of like a WP redirect. Out of 15 books, we have 382 index references to "the West Bank", 1 to "Judea & Samaria" and 1 to "Samaria". Oh well, I'll continue to occasionally dive in when I see the worst of this sort of thing. --Nickhh (talk) 09:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. - Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not made more than 3 reversions within a 24-hour period. Also, CM, please don't restore material that has been shown to be in breach of WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:NCGN without consensus. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You have on several occasions made exactly 3 reversions, and a fourth one just after the 24 hours expire. That is known as gaming the system, and your attention is drawn to the sentence which I have highlighted in the above warning. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Tag-teaming to restore material that has been unequivocally shown to be a violation of not one but several WP policies plus one guideline is the archetypical system gaming. Please act in accordance with WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:SYNTH, WP:SOAP and WP:NCGN, you as well as Jayjg and NoCal100. Thank you. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, thanks for starting the RfC at Talk:Samaria. Hopefully with some additional editors commenting, it will be possible to try and find the consensus on how to deal with the dispute at that article. :) One request I do have though, is in how you are presenting your arguments. You seem to be personalizing the dispute a bit, as you keep repeating Jayjg's name over and over, in comments and edit summaries. Could you please try to step away from this practice? Focusing your comments strictly on the article, and not on other editors, may help the dispute to resolve more quickly. Thanks, --Elonka 22:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your views. The RfC contains his name only once, as a courtesy and acknowledgment of the research he did do. I agree I may have become carried away in the heat of the battle at other times during this prolonged debate, but I know for a fact that others have felt a bit of frustration in the exchanges with this particular editor too. It should be noted that he's no stranger to the practice either — witness for instance the naming of this section . MeteorMaker (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I have removed the name from the header, and if he continues to personalize the dispute, I shall have a word with him as well. Sound fair? --Elonka 23:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thank you! MeteorMaker (talk) 23:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

RFC

You're free to insert whatever straw man arguments you want in your "RFC", but don't remove my own comments from the RFC again. Thanks. Jayjg 03:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your generous offer, which, due to a non-reliance on strawman tactics, I must decline. I have not removed your quotes either, I merely moved them to another section . If I can give you some advice in return, please don't use identical section headers, particularly not when the section name you copied is from an RfC that has yet to be found by the RfC bot. Thank you. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Complex reverts and 3RR

MeteorMaker, undoing the actions of another editor in a complex way, by slightly changing your wording each time even though you are aware that this does not address the fundamental issue, also counts as a 3RR violation. I strongly suggest you revert yourself, before you are blocked for this. Jayjg 00:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

How exactly is it "undoing the actions of another editor" to add information about the sources said editor adds? MeteorMaker (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

You've removed the phrase also known as "Judea and Samaria" each time, replacing it with slightly different qualifiers, or removing it altogether, in an attempt to get around the 3RR rule. This is fairly obvious, including to you. Please don't wikilawyer further; instead, revert yourself now and work it out on the Talk: page. Jayjg 01:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Editing at West Bank

• West Bank (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• MeteorMaker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello. Today you have made substantially the same edit to West Bank four times, restoring a version of the lede from December the ninth. Whilst the edits are not verbatim identical there is little semantic difference. For these edits another editor has reported you to the edit warring noticeboard. You have been previously advised that edit-warring is forbidden.

Additionally, you made this edit with the clear intent to disrupt the article to make a point.

Thus, for violating the three-revert-rule and deliberate disruption, I have blocked you for 24 hours.

If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

CIreland (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops

Sorry about the accidental tag. I was researching vandalism from an IP, and when I had the tag ready to put on their page, I accidentally clicked the wrong tab in my browser and put it on your page instead of theirs. The correct location was here. Sorry for any confusion, --Elonka 19:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Removing my comments

I'm fine with both being links, or both being lists, but don't remove my list of sources and replace it with a link, unless you do the same with your endlessly repeated list of sources too. Jayjg 22:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I always post the link to the "Samaria" discussion-of-sources page rather than copy 10K+ over and over, that's why it's there after all. The encyclopedia links were a one-off exception — I had posted the usual link about ten times, and CM kept saying "it doesn't say "Samaria" is an ancient term". I think he finally did read them, since he didn't repeat that absurd claim again.

Just saw you put the whole 12K in there again — which is your fifth identical copy of that same list. Admins have earlier discouraged that practice. I would advise you to settle for a simple link. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

And you've put your list of sources in what, 6 times? More? You've now reverted me 3 times, don't violate WP:3RR. Jayjg 23:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I have only posted the table of sources once. I had to repost a small subset yesterday, for reasons explained above and here.

I must ask you to revert your refactoring and clearly misleading labelling of that tiny fraction of the sources "MeteorMaker's sources" — you're forcing me to copy and paste the whole enchilada otherwise. In addition to being misleading, the label "MeteorMaker's sources" is also factually incorrect, since the sources were contributed by numerous editors, including yourself. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:02, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Nudge

Hi, as I've been reviewing your contribs, MeteorMaker (talk · contribs), I've been a bit concerned by how you've been rather focused on this "Samaria" issue, and have done little else for weeks. It hasn't always been like this, so could I perhaps give you a gentle nudge to work on other things as well? We definitely have a lot that needs doing on the project. :) Even just clicking on Random article a few times, I usually find something that I want to fix (or at least tag as needing cleanup) within a few clicks. Perhaps also create a userpage? Having a bit of information about your interests would be helpful, would help increase the trust level with other editors, and would also keep your name from showing up as a redlink! --Elonka 21:35, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I do tend to stay focused, and I am happy with that. I have no desire to flaunt my personal life on WP either. Thank you for your kind advice anyway. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Worth keeping in mind

With your mastery of the subject and the additional evidence from a few other hands as well, for both sides of the argument, it should be worth keeping in mind that these two long threads could well constitute an extremely well-documented NPOV wiki article on I/P terminology, or more specifically on history of 'West Bank/Samaria-Judea' usage, independently of how the decision goes. Something along those lines, to avoid wasting much closely mustered evidence in archived nooks. Best regards for the New Year Nishidani (talk) 13:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Nishidani, and happy new year to you too. Now that it's a group effort, we're finally getting somewhere, with contributions from several scrupulous and tireless editors. The evidence is rock-solid now and the resistance to aligning this encyclopedia with its more reputable colleagues has degenerated into the predictable accusations of racism and weak attempts to get the opposition blocked on entirely spurious grounds. The sad part is that as soon as we turn our backs for a moment, all the hard work will be undone, but I agree that if there's a well-documented reference page to point to, our successors will find the research work done for them already. If for no other reasons than that it's an enjoyable read, it's a good candidate for a wiki article, but I must admit I'm a little unsure about the procedure for creating one. Where can I read up? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thought I'd just pop by again to commend the two of you (and G-Dett) for persevering with this one, despite the inordinate amount of time that had to be spent on it. I'm afraid, as noted above, I just got fed up with the constant demands to "proooove!!" what anyone ranging from the casual newspaper reader to the student of serious literature on the topic knows fully well about what the area in question is called in standard sources, and why. It seems the resistance to the obvious is dwindling (finally) as checkmate approaches, and that articles will broadly stick with "West Bank" now. Oh and as per the below, this kind of accusation does appear to be developing into a bit of a habit (Nishidani I know you've been targeted with "stalking" accusations and subject to weird NPA allegations). As have I, eg here - it's worth looking into what prompted that "complaint", it's quite revealing. As noted, the overall tactic is more about smearing people and system gaming than anything else, and the inaccuracy and even hypocrisy of some of the allegations is almost amusing at times. --Nickhh (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Zionist Entity

Wikistalking is a big no-no. Consider this a polite warning. Repetition will result in more severe consequences. NoCal100 (talk) 17:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Look who's talking. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:HOUND: "Proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy or correcting related problems on multiple articles." - which is what you above links show. You, OTOH, have followed me to completely unrelated articles. DOn't say you were not warned. NoCal100 (talk) 17:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Yawn Nishidani (talk) 17:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

NoCal, I admit that it was you Canadian Monkey who led me to that page a week ago. Cool down. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

And again, look who's talking... not even two minutes between my edit and NoCal's revert this time. Note, his very first edit of that article, so it's not likely it was already on his watchlist. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

And your very first edit to the article was to revert me. To quote you, "Note, his very first edit of that article, so it's not likely it was already on his watchlist." Jayjg 22:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm active in a dispute involving the ADL atm, that's how I came across that disambig page. I didn't even look at your edit, much less revert it deliberately. The reason I mentioned it on this page was to expose NoCal's double standards regarding "wikistalking". MeteorMaker (talk) 22:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Right. You just happened to come across the article that I had most recently edited, and by chance reverted in the exact same wording I had just removed. Why don't you pull the other one? Jayjg 22:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I hope you're not accusing me of lying or, like NoCal, "wikistalking". Btw, you edited that article almost a week ago, it's by no means your most recently edited one.MeteorMaker (talk) 22:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'm accusing you of wikihounding, since that's the current terminology for what you have been doing. And not only am I accusing you of it, I'm telling you to stop doing it. Jayjg 23:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

So, when you "happen" to revert Jayjg on a page you never edited before, it is because you are 'active in a dispute involving the ADL ", but when I revert you on the same article, being involved in the exact same dispute dispute involving the ADL , I am hounding you? Don't you ever get tired of playing these silly games? NoCal100 (talk) 22:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Could theoretically be a coincidence that you reverted me two minutes after my edit, but you obviously didn't take that possibility into account when you created this section. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Oddly enough, your latest revert of me on that page managed to yet again insert the exact terminology that I had removed a few days before. What a very odd "coincidence"; you revert the page several times, and each time manage to use the exact wording that I had removed. Jayjg 23:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Not correct, I reverted it exactly one time, after NoCal reverted me (see above). I never checked the wording of the week-old earlier version, nor who made it. If you, like NoCal, are accusing me of "wikihounding", I can show quite a few examples of quod licet Iovi non licet bovis, as you're probably well aware. Though admittedly none as blatant as NoCal's above. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm actually pretty unhappy with everyone's behavior here, since it's fairly obvious that none of the involved editors are interested in working on the disambig page as a whole. Instead, multiple editors have descended on an innocent ADL disambig page, for one purpose and one purpose only, which is to bicker over a single entry, while ignoring everything else on the page that's desperately in need of cleanup. So in my opinion, all editors are making themselves look equally bad on this one. One small exception though, is that at least Jayjg and NoCal100 were participating a bit at the talkpage. MeteorMaker, you made four controversial edits to the page, with no comments on the related talkpage at all. I hope you will remedy this? --Elonka 23:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Every single one was in fact per your exact specification, so how you can say they are "controversial" is frankly a little bit difficult to understand. I quote you: "When there is a dispute about how to describe something on a disambiguation page, the general practice is to simply copy in whatever the first line of the actual article says." The first three edits faithfully reproduced (if in somewhat condensed form) the first line of the article text before Jayjg ran and edited it to not say " interest group" any more , The last of my edits was a verbatim quote from his edited version. Jayjg and NoCal's preferred version ("anti-hate group") does not adhere to that specification and is way less neutral and descriptive. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:05, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

PS: Elonka, speaking of remedying things... when are you planning to lift that ban? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No, MeteorMaker, your edits did not "copy in whatever the first line of the actual article says"; rather, you made a series of edits, none of which matched exactly the first line of the article either as it was when you first reverted me, or as it was when the lede was cleaned up a bit. The lede, for example, did not describe it as a "Jewish interest group"; therefore your reversion to that wording did not replicate the lede, nor did my improvements to the lede remove that wording. As for your restrictions, they clearly need to be tightened, since you have developed the rather nasty habit of removing cited material, but leaving in the citations themselves, and then wikilawyering about it. Jayjg 01:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Here, Jayjg, the first line of the article: "The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is an interest group founded in 1913 by B'nai B'rith in the United States whose stated aim is "to stop, by appeals to reason and conscience and, if necessary, by appeals to law, the defamation of the Jewish people. Its ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens."" (Emphasis mine). All three words in "Jewish interest group" are there and I think you agree my condensation is neither improper nor an inaccurate description of the group. Whereas your preferred wording ("Anti-hate group") occurs nowhere in the first sentence of the article, nor in the article itself. That is, not until you ran and edited out both "Jewish" and "interest group" , only eight minutes after Elonka made clear how disambig pages should be written. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Civility

MM, this edit summary was uncivil. When you use inflammatory edit summaries, it tends to just make people defensive, and less likely to want to work with you towards an amicable compromise. So in the future, please try to keep comments and edit summaries in a more neutral tone? This will enable you to be much more effective. Thanks. --Elonka 19:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't strike it, but I admit it can be perceived as uncivil if taken out of context. Read the talk page and you'll understand. There's more than a little merit for calling CM's contstant edits in violation of both the letter and the spirit of WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE "disruptive" though. Could you please tell him that he must back up his claims with reliables sources like everybody else? MeteorMaker (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Canadian Monkey#Israeli settlement. --Elonka 19:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW, please be cautious of WP:3RR. You're at three reverts already for the day, so probably best to step back from the "undo" button for awhile. --Elonka 21:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Complete control. Signing off for today now, someone else will have to keep the unsourced claims and POV-pushing off the page. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Edit-warring

MeteorMaker, this edit was a bit much, where you removed information that had a variety of reliable sources. Please don't do this kind of thing again. If you disagree with information that's on the page, but the sources are solid, you may wish to modify the information from those sources, but please don't remove the citations themselves. Thanks, --Elonka 21:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The sources are solid, but they are sources that use minority language. The obvious solution is to list sources for 'northern West Bank', and add a few, perhaps those removed, with a note to the effect that 'some sources refer to the withdrawal as from Samaria, the preferred Israeli term'.

So I think a compromise is required here, and that all those 'Samaria' sources cannot be removed, some should, proportionally, be restored. By the way, I've screwed up my addition, not good at that formatting. If you reconsider and add the elided sources back, I hope you can fix anything I've bungled. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Elonka, you know as well as I that those sources were cherry-picked with one rationale only: To bolster the claim that "Samaria" is mainstream terminoolgy outside Israel. Added with the knowledge that cites are more difficult to dislodge than claims, they are a textbook case of wikilawyering. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe WP:UNDUE applies to source selection as well. Since all relevant sources are from one side in the conflict, they also violate WP:NPOV. Additionally, WP:NCGN requires us to use the accepted English name for a place, and "Samaria" is not. Reinserting that policy-busting and thoroughly discredited claim yet one more time can only be seen as disruptive. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:NCGN is targeted more towards article titles, and not internal text. But for cases where it does refer to names in an article, the key element is reliable sources and significant usage. That standard appears to be easily met, to prove that Samaria is a "significant" enough term in English-language sources, to be used. If you feel that the sources are unbalanced, then the best way to handle things, rather than removing citations, is to add more sources which offer alternate views. --Elonka 22:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

So, when 8,000 sources have been added that use "northern West Bank", will we finally have consensus that "Samaria" is a minority term? The procedure for determining if a term is widely used in English was naturally applied early on in this discussion, and guess what: "Samaria" is utterly blown away by "West Bank". In addition, the survey unequivocally shows that the overwhelming majority of the online instances of "Samaria" (I'm talking in the 99% range here) are of Israeli origin, which in itself makes it problematic under both WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. To show why the "a cite is all we need" logic is flawed, I could argue that "Wets Bank" should be allowed as an alternative term, citing no less than 283 reliable sources. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, you have been cautioned before about removing citations to reliable sources. Since you have started up again, I am going to make this formal: based on the recent pattern of reverts, and working your way through several Israel-Palestine articles and making Samaria-related reverts, I am therefore instituting a formal ban: You are banned from

• Making Samaria-related reverts to any article in the Israel/Palestine topic area
• Removing reliable citations from any article in the topic area.

This ban is in place for 90 days.

If you feel that Samaria-related information in an article needs to be changed, or that a citation needs to be removed, then please bring it up at the talkpage, and, if there is consensus, let other editors make the actual edit. You are not banned from editing the articles, and you are still welcome to change information to try and find a compromise wording, as long as you are not engaging in reverts. Please let me know if you have any questions, --Elonka 17:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This appears to be based on a misconception: I did not remove Jayjg's (cherry-picked) cites, I just moved them to the proper place in the article, the part that actually discusses the usage of the name "Samaria". I humbly request that you lift that ban. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

In the original complain lodged on Elonka's page, about edit-warring, Jayjg himself does not refer to the removal of citations. He provides three links to what he calls 'edit-warring'. Were it true, then who was reverting what he was reverting? It takes at least two to tango. In one instance, at least, Canadian Monkey reverted as much as Meteormaker. I can't see the consistency of singling Meteormaker out, nor the extreme sanction of 90 days. I hope this is reviewed. Nishidani (talk) 21:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Ironically, it was Jayjg himself who performed the revert I reverted. Contrary to his recollection, there was never an agreement not to remove the term "Samaria" from the article. What he's probably thinking of in his complaint is this restriction, imposed by Elonka on 25 December 2008: "No more Samaria-related reverts in the lead of the article". If I'm eligible for a 90-day ban after reverting a (non-lead but Samaria-related) edit, logically Jayjg should be banned too, since he reverted the exact same text two days earlier. Else, I must say I see double standards at work here. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:28, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I second your request to Elonka to review her judgement. Since you did not as far as I can see, removed citations, (unless aged eyes blur the obvious for me) as she suggested, I'm sure if you notify her, she will review this. Otherwise, seek a third opinion, but only after a day or two. It's a weekend. She may be relaxing offline etc..Nishidani (talk) 21:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Heyo Elonka,

While MeteorMaker has been a difficult user to discuss issues with (esp. as sources were condemned "minority" or "partizan" because they were somehow allegedly related to Zionists and/or Israelis regardless of the source origin) - I'm thinking that there is still room to cut down the sanction time span a bit. If problems persist it can always be extended.

Dear Nishidani,

This is not entirely related, but I'm sure we both disagree with categorical defenses towards edits/editors who demonstrate anti-Jewish perspectives. As such, it would be nice to have you on board condemning such behavior.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 23:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I always enjoy warm regards from those who use the words ironically. I have made no 'categorical defense' of Meteormaker. He has edited on the same problem I edit, and he has been informed, collegial, comprehensive and above all, 'consistent' in defining these problematical terms over a number of pages. So, when I saw him punished, I checked the record, and found the claims were not precise, and the punishment severe. I merely underwrote a request for review, and trusted in the administrator to do so. I have done this for editors who do not share my own POV. As to 'categorical defenses' the page I am working now has a solid phalanx of new editors supporting the main editor. Their behaviour looks like tagteaming, and not the exercise of independent judgement. Meteormaker, like myself, often finds himself alone on a page where we have a vote stack, a panel of secondary editors regularly endorsing, by reverts and challenges, the primary derxcision made by the main editor whose position they favour. As usual I get 'antiJewish' thrown at me. Were I a precisian, I would get the person who uses this term rapped over the knuckles, for it is both untrue and needlessly incendiary in its offensive iinnuendo. Do I complain? No. I put my nose to the grindstone, even if I think this collective backing inappropriate, and try to reason on the substance of the issue, without haggling over formalisms before administrators.Nishidani (talk) 11:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Dear Nishidani,

My apologies that you take insult from my use of the 'warm regards' closing note, I assure you that there is no irony behind it. I comment to you out of good faith in our mutual interest of defending persecuted communities, regardless of how a number of editors have referred to you.

Btw, have you had the chance to watch that documentary I sent you a couple months ago about the Jewish refugees from Arab occupied lands?

Warm regardsWarm pizza, Jaakobou 12:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I dopn'ìt watch documentaries, and to my memory (at least at my age) I can't recall you sending, (as opposed to notifying ?) me of anything to watch? America was developed in good part like persecuted people, the Scots and the Irish among others, who then did to the next group, the Indians, what was done to them. History oftens records how victims turn into victimizers. The Jewish record of being victims is huge, Israel's history as a victimizer relatively short, but intense. In return, I suggest you read any number of books, like Robert Satloff's, Among the Righteous: Lost Stories from the Holocaust's Long Reach into Arab Lands, or Ari Alexander's monograph on the Iraqi Jewish community, or Beilin's on Egypt's Jewish communities. One thing is certain. AntiSemitism was a product of Christianity, and the doctrine that led to systematic pogroms, and finally the holocaust, was generated from the bosom of that faith, just as genocide and the doctrine of racial purity came out of the Old Testament, to infect, both faiths. The Muslims were the farthest removed from the Bible: perhaps that is why historically they have, comparatively, a rather good record for protecting Jews.

The pizza connection is of course more than acceptable! Nishidani (talk) 15:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you're completely wrong. Origins of the Yellow badge, for example, come from Harun al-Rashid (not Europe) and the Jewish people were victimized for centuries by the Arabs before they came up with creating the Hagana (lit. 'defence') to "victimize" the enemy into the single tiny (1:3.5 compared to Ireland) Jewish state that exists today on a fragment of the historical Jewish homeland (which would not have existed otherwise). Anyways, you can check the documentary here. It doesn't really go into the depths of the victimization and property theft but it gives a minor preivew into it. Jaakobou 16:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Jaakobou, kindly refrain from using my talkpage for your soapboxing. Thank you. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, but I was "baited" by our mutual friend who suggested Jewish self-defense was "victimization of" another people. I only clarified Nish's error as a civil reply to his use of your user talkpage to "soapbox" a misperspective about Israeli "short" history and as well as put more context on the erroneous claim about the perceived origins of Anti Jewish behavior. Anyways, I'll assume the comment was referred to us both and won't take our discussion further on this thread. Jaakobou 18:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I certainly hope you don't mean to say that you see me as one of those "editors who demonstrate anti-Jewish perspectives", in that case you would owe me an apology, like the one you gave me here after misrepresenting my position in more or less exactly the same way as you're again doing in this post. Assuming you're implying that it's "anti-Jewish" to state that the terms "Judea" and "Samaria" aren't used much outside Israel, here's a whole bunch of other "anti-Jewish" sources, including Encyclopedia Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia, the CNN, Menachem Begin, The Zionism and Israel Center and dozens of Jewish scholars. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Please, I do not build up interpretations on your life perspective regardless of the reasons you reject sources by. I directed my comment to Nishidani mostly and even promoted some leniancy towards you in my comment to Elonka. Jaakobou 03:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your plea on my behalf, what made me take offense was your untrue claim that I have "condemned "minority" or "partizan" because they were somehow allegedly related to Zionists and/or Israelis regardless of the source origin" and the uncalled for diatribe against "editors who demonstrate anti-Jewish perspectives". I suggest you strike both. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Memory serves me that sources have been rejected on the account that you perceived them to be Israel connected. I can't retract that statement when I'm certain this was the case. Still, I apologize that this statement feels inaccurate to you and I am open to reconsider my perspective if you wish to review and clarify past comments.

Cheers, Jaakobou 18:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't serve you as well as one might wish then, what I pointed out was that if you want to prove that the term "X" is used outside country "Y", a quote from a citizen of country "Y" using the term "X" isn't the best evidence. You have earlier apologized for that exact same oblique accusation of anti-Semitism, so per WP:AGF I will assume it won't happen a third time. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, hi, thanks for the message. You are correct about the citation thing. I saw the edit summary, and that citations had been removed, but missed the part about you moving the citations to a different part of the article. I am amending my statement accordingly, and apologize for my error. Regardless of the citation issue though, I am still concerned by the recent history that you've been showing of working your way through multiple articles and removing the "Samaria" term. This is provocative behavior, especially when done rapid-fire through multiple articles in a topic area that's already very difficult to keep stable. In some cases, I see that your change has already been reverted. It's good that you did not re-revert, but it's also a concern that these controversial changes were being made, without any attempt at discussion on the related talkpages. What would be best here, is to simply avoid reverting for awhile, especially when it's related to the Samaria term. You are welcome to continue to engage in discussion at talkpages, and follow other steps in dispute resolution. If there's a strong case to remove a Samaria-related term from an article, please let other editors make the actual change. In terms of the ban, I'm open to reducing it, but let's see how things go for a week, and then we can re-examine the situation and see about reducing (or even lifting) the ban. The best thing that you could do at this point, would be to put in some solid article creation and expansion work, to show that you're willing to help in non-controversial areas of the project. Creating a userpage would also be a good step.  :) --Elonka 00:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, I don't think mere concern is sufficient reason for any kind of sanction, let alone a 3-month topic ban. Because my time is limited, I tend to focus on one topic at a time, and would have been more than happy to leave this particular issue three months ago, when it became apparent that every single relevant source and applicable WP policy is behind the position that the terms "Judea" and "Samaria" do not belong in a proper reference work. It's because of the disruptive actions of a small coterie of pro-Israeli editors that I and several other editors have been tied up with this non-issue for months, under constant bombardment with accusations of anti-Semitism and other incivilities. I also respectfully disagree with your definition of "controversial changes", if the changes merely consist of substituting a term that everybody agrees is perfectly neutral for one that has well-documented issues with WP:NPOV, as well as WP:NCGN and WP:UNDUE, and is avoided in all other online encyclopedias, official documents, and (non-Israeli) news sources. I can certainly refrain voluntarily from making I/P edits for a week (effectively an inofficial topic ban) but It would be helpful if you specified what exact infraction I have incurred so I can steer clear of it in the future. As you requested, I have now created a user page. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

This is indeed a matter of policy consistency. It takes two to tango. Why can several editors consistently revert, or push for 'Samaria'/'Judea' over multiple pages, without administrative oversight, while one who on strong grounds, sees this as ungrounded, be complained of, and suffer sanctions for precisely what his colleagues on the other side do?Nishidani (talk) 11:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, thanks for your messages, let me try to explain the wiki-philosophy here. My apologies for the length of this post, but I'm going to try and be as thorough as possible, for both you and the other editors who are watching the discussion:

First, let me be clear that I have no opinion on whether or not Samaria or Judea or biblical or any of these terms do or don't appear in any of the articles. Whether we end up with the terms in the articles or out of the articles, I really have no preference. What my goal is, as an administrator, is to enforce policies, and to reduce disruption to the project. In most cases around the encyclopedia, this is fairly straightforward. For example, we'll have one longterm editor inserting information from reliable sources, and we'll have another editor deleting entire paragraphs and replacing them with, "This is wrong." So we revert the latter editor and instruct them about policies and dispute resolution, and if they continue disrupting without backing up their arguments, we block them, and life in the rest of the project goes on.  :)

In some areas though, especially Israel/Palestine, the disputes are much more complex, so administrators have to be a bit more creative. For example, this "Samaria" issue, which has been going on for a long time now. From my ("I don't care") point of view, there's one group of editors who say "Include" and another group of editors who say "Don't include," and this has been going on for awhile. I know that there are claims of Pro-Israel Anti-Israel Pro-Palestine Anti-Palestine yadayada, but again, administrators aren't going to care too much about that. What we do care about, is policies, especially WP:V and WP:UNDUE and WP:DR.

To give a more specific example: When editor A puts something into an article with reliable sources, and editor B removes the information and/or the sources, and absent any other input from other editors, the administrators are (usually) going to support editor A, and editor B is going to be encouraged to follow other steps in dispute resolution. There are exceptions to this, such as when dealing with biographies of living people. With BLPs, the burden of proof swaps around, and it's the responsibility of the editor wanting to include the information (especially if it's negative), to prove that it's well-sourced and appropriate in someone's bio, before it can be allowed to stick.

Getting away from biographies though and back to geography: we have editor A with sources, and editor B who says that the information (and sources) are giving undue weight to a particular concept. What editor B should now do is follow WP:DR: They can try rewriting the article to find a compromise, where editor A's information is included, but editor B can add their own (sourced) information as a counterpoint, or rework the wording of editor A's addition. Or, editor B can start a thread at the article's talkpage, and either find a compromise there with editor A, or start inviting other editors in, per an RfC or notices at a WikiProject or noticeboard. If the information which was added by editor A is a genuine problem, or a clear violation of WP:UNDUE, other editors will see it for what it is, the consensus will be clear, and the information and/or sources can come out of the article. If the consensus is not clear, try inviting more editors, or try mediation.

If things remain deadlocked, the tiebreaker may still be made by the sources. Not by quantity of sources, but by the existence of the sources, and the opinions of editors on how to interpret those sources. If there are 10 reliable sources saying "blue", and 30 reliable sources saying "red", and one group of editors says, "The article should say 'blue'", and another group of editors says, "You guys are insane, the article should obviously say 'red'", then the administrators are going to look at the situation, and if there's no clear consensus, the decision is probably going to be, "The article should say both blue and red, in proper proportion to how the topic is presented in reliable sources". So applying this to Samaria, it means (as I'm interpreting the discussions thus far), that the term can be used in the articles, as long as it is properly attributed and placed in the proper proportion. At Israeli settlement, this seemed to boil down to a compromise of, "Samaria can be mentioned in the article, but shouldn't be in the lead."

As for why you were banned and others weren't, please don't take this as an indication that no one else will ever be banned. Sometimes multiple bans are issued each day, sometimes one ban at a time, sometimes they're staggered out over a week, it really depends. I have to be careful what I say because I don't want to inflame the situation, but it's reasonable to assume that I (and other administrators) are observing the behavior of several editors in this dispute, and may institute other bans. To see who's at risk, look at WP:ARBPIA, check the names in the "notified" list, and also review the history of the talkpages of other editors in this dispute. If I or another administrator has warned/nudged/cautioned them, it means that editor's behavior is being watched.

Ultimately the Samaria dispute seems to come down to this: One group of editors wants the Samaria term in the article. Another group doesn't. There are sources both ways. There is no clear consensus among the editors as to how things should be handled. RfCs have not brought clarity to the issue. The community of wider editors doesn't care. The public doesn't seem to care too much either (otherwise we'd get a stream of outraged anonymous messages on the talkpage). So if there's no consensus, and no one else seems to care, let it go. It's not worth this much angst, over how to word one sentence on a much longer article. You may also wish to review Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars, for examples of other places around the project where editors spent way too much time quibbling over very minor points. We've got a huge encyclopedia here, with thousands of new articles flowing in every day. There's lots of work that needs to be done. So on this "Samaria" question, we talk it over, we flip a coin, if nothing's clear, we put a pin in it and move on to other debates. Editors that don't seem able to let things go, especially when they're not working on anything else on the project, are probably going to be asked to leave.

Another measuring stick that administrators use, is looking at the editing history of each editor. If there's one editor who has created multiple articles, who is constantly arguing with another editor who's never created a single article, the "writing" editor will often receive better backup from the administrators, to allow them to get back to building the encyclopedia, while the "arguing" editor may simply be removed from the equation. It doesn't mean that their arguments were necessarily bad. But if their arguments were presented, they've made their case, the options have been considered, and the decision went against their arguments (or there's no consensus), the community expectation is that the arguing editor should let things go and move on to other projects. Now don't get me wrong, consensus can change, so it may be worth re-opening the discussion several months down the line. But sometimes we just have to say, "This is the way the articles are going to be written for awhile," and shoo people away from the discussion to encourage them to work on other things.

Does that help explain the wiki-subtleties at all? For your own purposes, if you'd like to have a stronger voice in discussions: Stop worrying about the Samaria question for awhile. Work on other articles, or even better, expand or create other articles. Having a userpage isn't just for personal information about you, but for information about what you've worked on. Look at other editors' userpages, and you'll see that we talk about the articles and topic areas where we work, and we usually proudly banner the articles that we've helped to promote to a state of higher quality. To do this yourself, pick an article that's in so-so shape, and improve it to good article or featured article status. Or if your talents are more in "article review" than "article creation", help out at WP:GAN, and you'll see there's a backlog of articles where reviews have been requested. You could be a decisionmaker on whether or not nominated articles should be promoted. This kind of work would be extremely helpful to the encyclopedia, and would have the added bonus of giving you recognizable accomplishments that you could place on your userpage. Which would give you a much stronger voice in any article discussions where you choose to participate. --Elonka 17:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Elonka, thanks for your long reply. Some points:

1) "I have no opinion on whether or not Samaria or Judea or biblical or any of these terms do or don't appear in any of the articles." While I can see the reason why you have to state this, I think the sheer amount of evidence this discussion has produced in favor of the position that the terms are purely historical (outside Israel) cannot possibly be neglected. An agnostic attitude in the absence of facts is fine and commendable; in the face of such overwhelming evidence, it's untenable.

2) "There are sources both ways." That is not correct. There are now 56 sources one way, including encyclopedias, news sources, official documents and academic works. That is what we call grade-A reliable sources around here, and literally thousands more could be added. There are exactly 0 sources the other way. In trying to hide that fact, the propounders of the "Samaria is in current use" hypothesis have tried bending every WP policy, notably WP:SYNTH.

3) "What my goal is, as an administrator, is to enforce policies". As pointed out here, "Samaria" and "Judea" clearly violate WP:NPOV (by being used by only one side in the conflict), WP:UNDUE (by being used by only a tiny minority) and WP:NCGN (by not being the accepted English name for the region, by far). Among the policies the "Samaria" advocates continue to violate are WP:SYNTH (by attempting to draw self-serving conclusions from anecdotal evidence), WP:GAME (by blatant stonewalling, refusal to accept reliable sources, and inserting partisan refs, knowing that refs are more difficult to dislodge than article text), and, most worryingly, WP:CIVIL (by accusing other editors of racism, which I'm certain you agree is entirely unfounded). I must disagree with your view (if I understand it correctly) that a large number of articles created automatically gives an editor a licence to disregard WP policies, and this dispute is entirely about applying WP policies.

As about my topic-ban, I'm confident you will remove it now that we have established that it was based on a misunderstanding and that I have not in fact violated any rules or restrictions. If you wish, I could certainly work outside the I/P field for a while, but my forte is error correction, and I find no other WP area so much in need of it. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, I understand that you feel that you have a strong case on the Samaria question. But I'm not the one that you need to convince. The decision about what goes into an article, is made by the editors who are working on that article. Ideally, when those editors disagree about how the article should be handled, they can find a compromise or consensus version that they are all happy with. On Misplaced Pages, it's not about making an article "one way or the other", it's about including all relevant viewpoints, if they are significant viewpoints which can be backed up in reliable sources. Also, this is not a case of you arguing with single-purpose accounts, this is a case of you, a relatively new editor with limited experience on Misplaced Pages, trying to argue with experienced, established, and trusted editors. You keep saying that you're right, they're wrong, and then you go around edit-warring on multiple articles to enforce your viewpoint. This is not acceptable behavior. If you really feel that you have a strong case, it is incumbent upon you to convince other editors of your argument. If things are as clear as you say they are, then other editors will agree, and the articles will be modified to reflect the consensus. If other editors disagree with you, the solution is not to edit war, but to bring better arguments. If other editors continue to disagree with you, you can invite in other uninvolved editors. If no one else seems to care, then please, let it go, because it's probably not as important in the grand scheme of things as you seem to think it is.

As for working on other articles, you don't have to go outside the I-P area if you do not wish to. There's plenty that needs doing within the I-P area. For example, at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel/Assessment, there are over one thousand unassessed articles. You could help out at Category:Unassessed Israel-related articles, review those articles, and make a determination of whether they should be classified as "stub" class, "start", "B", "A", etc. There are many ways that you could help out with the Misplaced Pages project, which could fit into your area of expertise, but allow you to step away from this Samaria question for awhile. Remember, there is no deadline here. There's no urgency that requires the Samaria issue to be "fixed" immediately. Please, let it go, and assume good faith that other editors will be able to deal with things for awhile. You are still welcome to participate in Samaria-related discussions in the meantime, to convince editors of your viewpoint. But it is my honest advice that the better course of action for you right now, would be to backburner this, and go work on something else for awhile. --Elonka 18:22, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Formalism is an open invitation to edit-warring, and wars of attrition. Master the rules, edit and use rules to counter opposition, without breaking the formal etiquette, and any article whatsoever can be held in suspension for years. There is a deadline, for some of us, our proximate mortality.

When you write:'this is a case of you, a relatively new editor with limited experience on Misplaced Pages, trying to argue with experienced, established, and trusted editors,' are you implying that those who sustain the minority view (according to reliable sources) are, unlike Meteormaker, 'experienced, established, and trusted editors'? One of them is experienced and not trusted for editing to NPOV. Secondly, leaving aside my own eccentricity, what Meteormaker worked on found extensive support from several 'experienced, established and trusted editors'. Meteormaker is certainly not a solitary amateur against several professionals. He is one of several editors, against several others, and the sobriety and determination to stick to sources, dialogue with the others, has been generally exemplary.

I suggest therefore that he take this administrative decision to review, since (a) the person who made it erred in one key element (b) the judgement was extremely harsh. Nishidani (talk) 18:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the judgment was extremely lenient. A harsh judgment would have been a complete block of account access. But as it is, the only things that MeteorMaker is restricted from doing, are (1) removing citations to reliable sources; and (2) Edit-warring over the Samaria question. Neither one of which he should have been doing in the first place. He's still allowed to make other edits to the articles, he's still allowed to participate in talkpage discussions. And other editors are still allowed to make Samaria-related edits. So there's no appreciable loss to Misplaced Pages here, just a reduction of disruption on the Samaria question. --Elonka 19:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Elonka, stonewalling is the epitome of WP:GAME violation. If you're truly honest about your ambition to enforce WP policies (and I have no reason at this point to doubt you're not), go ahead and ban, not me, but the editors that refuse to accept one of the most abundantly well-sourced facts in Misplaced Pages history, and let us rid the article of the issues it has with WP:NPOV, WP:NCGN and WP:UNDUE through the partisan terminology these editors insist Misplaced Pages, alone among reference works, should use. The fact that some of these editors are "experienced" should in fact count against them if they clearly, like in this case, willingly and knowingly violate fundamental WP policies. I note that to your statement "it's about including all relevant viewpoints", you add the proviso "if they are significant viewpoints which can be backed up in reliable sources", and, as we have seen, not one reliable source for the "Samaria is in current use" position exists. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

If Americans Knew

You might be interested in expressing your views regarding the lead of the IAK article on the mediation page: Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-01/If Americans Knew StN (talk) 18:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish terrorism

FYI : Ceedjee (talk) 11:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Samaria and User:NoCal100

Hi MeteorMaker,

Just to let you know, I've posted at WP:AE regarding User:NoCal100 and Samaria.

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 18.02.2009 15:28

Arbitration enforcement

I have reported you recent violation of the ban placed on you by Elonka at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

It's telling that you don't even specify what that "recent violation" would be. Instead of wasting everybody's time with pointless ArbCom reports, you should try to find support for your position in this dispute. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a word of advice. Although you didn't break the letter of Elonka's ban, the spirit of her ban was clearly that you should not edit-war over the Samaria naming issue. I strongly advise you to work with other editors to find a mutually acceptable global solution - don't be tempted to try to impose unilateral solutions. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)