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The Gelbspan article

According to the Gelbspan article :

Lindzen, for his part, charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels, and a speech he wrote, entitled "Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus," was underwritten by OPEC.

The trouble is Gelbspan presents no evidence here to support his case. He claims this is found in the 'testimony of St. Paul.' How does one obtain a copy of this? In order for this to be reincluded in the Misplaced Pages article, someone would need to show there is other evidence beyond Gelbspan's assertion. Aside, it is astonishing to see the number of websites out there that just repeat this story verbatim without any concern for its accuracy! E.g. Ofcom's Swindle Documentary Complaint(!) Alex Harvey (talk) 00:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Verifiability. We're only reporting the claim, the claim is verified to a reliable source, the truth of the claim is another matter. In the absence of clear WP:RS contradiction of the claim, we can merely report it. Rd232 00:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

You would think some consideration for truth ought to be made. In any case, I edited the above to note that Gelbspan is claiming this is all in the testimony given under oath at St. Paul, Minnesota. Alex Harvey (talk) 00:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Not that it matters (see what I said above) but we can verify that Gelbspan didn't invent the hearings. The hearings in question appear to be by the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission; some details here but only a summary, not including details of expert witnesses or their testimony. Those details don't appear to be accessible online, but they will be public. Given that (and after all it's published in a reliable source), we must assume (without evidence to the contrary or subsequent retraction or legal action) that Gelbspan is accurately reporting expert witness disclosure of their interests. Rd232 00:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Rd232, thanks for finding that although given that it doesn't mention Lindzen at all (as you say) I'm not sure that it proves anything.

It matters in as much as I'm sure that I'm not alone in just wanting to know the truth.

Gelbspan alleges three points about Lindzen:

The first point may be important as it could establish some sort of conflict of interest. Without the details, of course, it's rather difficult to say. $2500 / day sounds very fair rate for someone of Lindzen's status. I know IT people who are paid sort of contract rate. Thus it would be quite relevant to this article to know exactly what he did for $2500/day and for how long was he employed.

The second point (having a trip to the Senate paid for by Western Fuels) is not really saying anything. No one would pay for the trip themselves if appearing in the Senate so it seems to be given undue weight by both the journalist and Misplaced Pages.

The third point, though, about L's Global warming: the origin and nature of the alleged scientific consensus article is the one that causes me to doubt the accuracy of the Gelbspan report, because (1) Lindzen claims full authorship for it at his website; (2) he has elsewhere insisted that none of his research has ever been funded by energy interests; (3) the style of the writing in this article is obviously Lindzen's; (4) Lindzen has made exactly the same points in numerous other articles since. I guess it would then be necessary to know: Is this article actually the same speech given that OPEC allegedly underwrote? From the answer to that question would spring many other relevant questions. Alex Harvey (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Well if you want to dig up the relevant hearing documents from the Minnesota PUC and get any discrepancies with Gelbspan's version published in a reliable source, more power to you. Otherwise, it's going to be WP:OR. Rd232 01:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

That's going to be rather difficult given that I live in Australia and not Minnesota. In the meanwhile, I have added a "However" to the text to make it clearer that the Ross Gelbspan & Alex Beam versions of the story are actually in conflict (i.e. Gelbspan says that L "charges" (present tense implies ongoing) "$2,500 per day" whereas L in 2006 claimed $10,000 was the net amount that he received (implying that he could only have charged $2,500 for a maximum of four days). I hope that's okay. Alex Harvey (talk) 00:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

You might not have to go there in person, you could try phoning/emailing... I'm OK with the 'however' in the flow of the para, but it would be OR to explicitly claim Beam and Gelbspan contradicting each other since Gelbspan didn't say how many days consulting Lindzen did, and present tense in 1995 is perfectly compatible with "not since the 90s". Plus some of Gelbspan's bits are probably considered expenses, not fees. Rd232 13:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure Gelbspan hasn't just outrightly lied. "Charges $2500 per day" leaves the impression that it's something that L did regularly. If he has only done this at maximum 3 or 4 days in a 40 year career, then G is clearly applying some "spin". I'm not entirely happy with the current wording either (it just doesn't quite flow) and I'll probably do something about it in due course if no one else does. Thanks for the suggestion: I follow that up and send an email. Alex Harvey (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

This document here that you found earlier seems to concern events after Gelbspan's piece was published. What makes you think it's relevant? Alex Harvey (talk) 07:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I have just noted that Lindzen is on record implying that the Gelbspan allegations are both false and slanderous:

Weart ... had written a history of the global warming issue (Weart, 2003) where he repeated, without checking, the slander taken from a screed by Ross Gelbspan (The Heat is On) in which I was accused of being a tool of the fossil fuel industry. (Climate Science: Is it currently designed to answer questions?, p. 14).

So our inclusion of this seems to have some pretty clear WP:BLP implications. What's the correct thing to do here? Alex Harvey (talk) 23:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

BLP does not rule out critique, as long as it is reliably sourced, and this is. Try the devils devils advocate approach here: there are three possible realities: 1) Gelbspan is correct 2) Lindzen is correct 3) Its somewhere in between. In both 1+2+3 Lindzen would complain (with much the same as you just showed). Which is why we do not take a stand on whether or not its true, but rely on secondary reliable sources to provide the perspective. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I get why Alex added that quote, but what's with the unsourced addition of Lindzen's religion (relevance?) and removal of information? diff? Nothing helpful in the edit summaries... Rd232 00:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Rd232, I'm not sure how you generated that diff -- the other changes (e.g. religion/removal of material) I did much earlier, and it was mentioned in the edit summaries at the time (perhaps I forgot to mention the religion). I removed the awards that Mmarque added because they're not awards; they're memberships. I didn't see how they could belong in that section, and they still appear in the article. Also, Mmarque had added AAAS twice. On religion, Lindzen states in an interview here that "I am somewhat religious, more of a believer in any case than an observer. Something besides mankind exists." That his religion is specifically Jewish is common knowledge. See for instance his participation in the Uni of Chicago Latke vs Hamantesh debate here. I didn't think this detail was so important as to require a reference. Alex Harvey (talk) 01:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, okay, I also added mention of his discovery of the mechanism of the quasi-biennial oscillation. Well, there it is, again common knowledge, not sure why it wasn't already in the article. See any historical review paper on the quasi-biennial oscillation and you'll see that it was Lindzen & Holton (but mainly Lindzen) who discovered the cause for the QBO. Alex Harvey (talk) 01:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, so what about eliding 200 papers + 3 books into 200 books and papers, and removing the NAS detail? (NB the diff was between the current version and the last one before your 3 recent edits.) Rd232 01:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I simply reverted that to what was the previous wording, which I agree also isn't great. Mmarque said that he had written three books, which isn't correct. I haven't investigated this thoroughly, but I am pretty sure he has only written one book (Lindzen, 1990, Dynamics of the middle atmosphere), co-authored a second book (Lindzen & Chapman, 1970), and finally he has co-edited a third book on Jule Gregory Charney to which he contributed one chapter. I am planning on replacing the whole thing with something that's better worded when I add his earlier work. Okay, apologies, it's hard to include all the changes you make in the oneline summary, and I figure most people will look at the diffs if they really care anyway. I considered all of these to be pretty minor, uncontroversial changes. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

On the NAS detail, okay, it added the section on geophysics to the text, as well as I think the year he got it. I thought Mmarque's edits were on the whole very good but he didn't given any justification or summary of them either. On this point, I didn't like the wording, it added inconsistency (i.e. if we're adding the year for NAS membership, why not the others?) and it seemed a little superfluous to note that the section was geophysics. Alex Harvey (talk) 04:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the comments about Weart and Gelbspan. This is a WP:SPS (non RS) and can't be used for such. We can reference Lindzen's rejection - but not repeat the allegations. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't really mind if you've removed the quote about Weart & Gelbspan from the footnote. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Draft: Early work section (work in progress)

I thought I would include here the draft of the early work section I am working on. I'm going to edit this as I go and others are of course welcome to contribute. Once it's finished I'll try to merge the material with the existing article in some way that we can all agree on. I'm not going to add the references at this stage but it will all be justified by reliable sources in time. Alex Harvey (talk) 01:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

---moved to User:Alexh19740110/Lindzenearlydraft, thanks Rd232. Alex Harvey (talk) 05:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Would anyone like to comment on the draft I have written of Lindzen's early work at this point?

Keep in mind that all of what is in my draft so far (and there is a LOT to come) happened before Lindzen turned 30. It is my hope that people who insist on inclusion of what is in my opinion rather silly and petty slurs against Lindzen's character might start to think about whether a little more respect to the life of a great, living scientist is due.

At any rate, I'd appreciate some feedback as I'd like to include this new material in the main article. Alex Harvey (talk) 02:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Just write it as best you can, from as neutral point of view as you can. When you're done, insert it into the article. Then if someone has problems, they can correct them. But from a quick skim, there appears to be too much editorializing. Even today, the cause of this phenomenon is debated. Show it; don't tell it. In view of the later controversy of Lindzen's skepticism on anthropogenic global warming... it is worth noting that he has never publicly questioned the dangers of anthropogenic CFC emissions and ozone depletion. If his view on CFCs is notable, then just state it. There is no need to preface it with the bit about global warming. See Misplaced Pages:MORALIZE. -Atmoz (talk) 05:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Atmoz, your helpful comments are much appreciated. On the superrotation section (Even today, the cause of this phenomenon is debated) the truth is I haven't finished as I am struggling with understanding what the status of this issue is today. I think that the issue is still open and that some combination of both the Fels/Lindzen hypothesis and the Gierasch seems to be involved... I'll fix up the wording once I know what to write. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there really a consensus on cirrus clouds...?

Whilst researching Lindzen's biography I have come across an 11-author review paper just published in JGR:

Hui Su, Jonathan H. Jiang, Yu Gu, J. David Neelin, Brian H. Kahn, Daniel Feldman, Yuk L. Yung, Joe W. Waters, Nathaniel J. Livesey, Michelle L. Santee, and William G. Read, Variations of tropical upper tropospheric clouds with sea surface temperature and implications for radiative effects, J. Geophys. Res., 113, D10211, doi:10.1029/2007JD009624.

They state in their introduction:

High-altitude clouds in the tropics include deep convective towers and associated anvil clouds, as well as thin cirrus that can be formed in situ by gravity wave and Kelvin wave perturbations or by large-scale uplift of humid layers . The relationships of deep convection and associated clouds to sea surface temperature (SST) are of great interest in climate studies because of their importance for cumulus parameterizations in models and their potential implications for cloud feedbacks in climate change. A number of studies have been conducted using various measures of cloud observations and numerical models . However, no consensus has been reached regarding whether high-altitude clouds increase or decrease with SST and whether they provide a positive or negative climate feedback.

Thus the text appearing in the Lindzen article:

The consensus view is that increased sea surface temperature would result in increased cirrus clouds which would have the effect of warming the sea surface further and thus there would be positive feedback.

Also, this 11-author study is critical of the Lindzen-Chou-Hou Iris hypothesis. Therefore, the above-cited text from the article is factually incorrect; there is no "consensus," and the wording needs to be changed. Comments? Alex Harvey (talk) 13:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you should note that they are talking about different kinds of clouds (cumulus et al) not just cirrus. It may also enlighten you to read the conclusion of the paper. You are doing original research here. If you need a cite for the consensus - it can be found in the AR4. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, a page number in AR4 would be good 'cause I can't find it. Currently, saying without a reference that "the consensus view is X" is, indeed, original research. For all the reader knows, this might be a consensus of 2 Misplaced Pages editors. I have added a verification tag to the article. Alex Harvey (talk) 13:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

two things

1. To those who want to remove the section on smoking, on the bet with James Annan, or the section linking Lindzen to ExxonMobil, I suggest that it is currently impossible, as Kim D. Petersen (and others) will simply revert your edit. It doesn't matter how many times, or how many people, delete the section, it will be put back in again, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. The only way this can be removed I suppose is to voice your support for its removal here in the talk page. The last gungho attempt to remove it has simply resulted in more links being added in the article as "evidence" which are of course just pointers to more external Lindzen smear-sites (and not evidence at all...).

2. Does anyone feel they could help complete the section on early work? I must admit that while I have made some progress with it (see link above), the material on CISK & convection is just too difficult for me to make sense of, even in outline. Having this early material put in, in my opinion, will do far more to establish Lindzen's genuine greatness than having the nonsense about smoking et cetera removed in any case. Alex Harvey (talk) 15:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

ref 29...

Kim Dabelstein Petersen, you have predictably reverted my edit to remove the slander ABC piece you recently linked in the article. Said article states that Lindzen was an "active" "denialist" of the link between smoking and cancer. I stand by my contention that this is gutter journalism you have included, but that much is only my opinion. What is not my opinion is that the article makes slanderous, unproveable claims; it cites no sources, and shows no evidence that the journalist has done actual research. In all likelihood, therefore, the journalist's primary source is indeed this very Misplaced Pages article. It is clearly false that Lindzen has ever been "active" in promoting no link between smoking and cancer. It is also clearly offensive to be referring to anyone as a "denialist" of anything. Your inclusion of this article is therefore contrary to BLP policy, wrong on a number of levels, is potentially libellous, and should be removed immediately. Can you explain why you believe it should be included and why you reverted my edit? Alex Harvey (talk) 03:19, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I agree I'm wrong to call it gutter journalism, as it's written by a scientist, not a journalist. Perhaps that's the inherent problem here, and perhaps Professor Barry Brook ought to be forgiven for being misinformed by Misplaced Pages, still regrettably the most likely source of his incorrect information... Alex Harvey (talk) 06:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Its reliably sourced, the rest is your opinion. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I see, very well, so I look to the bottom of this Don't be swindled piece of yours to where I might reasonably expect to find your writer's "reliable sources" and I find... I find... um... it's blank, Kim. Blankness. Go on, have a look. Blanky. Then I read word for word again the section that deals with Lindzen -- "...Amongst the selected contrarian 'experts' Durkin has rallied to his cause, there are ... Fred Singer and Richard Lindzen (who, in earlier incarnations, had been active denialists of the link between passive smoking and lung cancer, despite neither having any medical expertise). Investigative journalism has revealed that many of the interviewees...". So really, that's it. Did you mean bias or sources? I can find plenty of bias, the bias in the piece is palpable. So I re-read the rest of the article, although I should be working, and I find... na-da, zip. I put it to you, Kim, that it is not reliably sourced, but unsourced, as I said. Don't waste my time. Alex Harvey (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Strangely enough WP:RS is about our (ie. WP's) references - not what references the references give. That is something that we leave entirely to the editorial process elsewhere. I'm not going to be dragged into discussing what your or my opinion here is. Read the very first sentence in WP:V please. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and one can take in isolation a Misplaced Pages regulation such as this one to justify just about anything. Somewhere or other in those regulations it says that you ought to avoid using articles that show an obvious bias, you ought to be extra careful when dealing with living people, you ought to avoid gratuitously linking in negative material such as this. Let's take it to the BPL noticeboard... Alex Harvey (talk) 15:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Kim, I have to say I'm disappointed at the audacity you have to argue for the inclusion of this material. I've seen you rail on the inclusion of op-eds as sources more than any other editor I know (sample: ). Even if the op-ed were usable on this page, don't you see a WP:WEIGHT problem here? You're adding a whole section based on a parenthetical statement where he's grouped with another person in an op-ed and one sentence in a Newsweek interview? No way this meets the bar, I'm removing it. Oren0 (talk) 16:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you may want to assume good faith? The reference is correctly an Op-Ed, but it is not used as the primary reference, that is the Guterl article, which is not an Op-Ed. Your removal thus seems rather strange, and quite a bit more personal than you may want it to. (you know content not person?) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

This section is discussing the ABC op-ed, which you claim to meet WP:RS. Given that it makes potentially disparaging comments in a BLP as an aside, it doesn't meet the bar. I'm also curious how you think the two mentions totaling fewer than 50 words justify a whole top-level section roughly equal in length to the "career" section. Oren0 (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The whole section was quite deliberately written so that the Guterl biography was treated as if an Op-Ed (ie. in the form "in X, Y states"). The second reference was used to show that we aren't talking about a single instance (we could have found others). (iirc) Chris Mooney's republican war contains much the same. There may be a weight issue (which i dispute, since Lindzen actually is quite frank on this (and to some extent i agree with him on this particular issue)), i seem to recall a mention in Stern magazine (german) as well. And it is an elephant in the room (search "lindzen passive smoking"). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

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