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Hitler

Why dont you guys add Hitler to this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.47.3 (talk) 21:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Black People are more important???

Why the article "Black People" is blocked and "White People" not? Or both should be blocked or both shouldn't.

Bad Footnote

The term "white race" or "white people" entered dictionaries of the major European languages in the 1600s. Unless there is a good reference this needs to modified. English (a major European language) didn't even have dictionaries in the 17th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitpyck (talk • contribs) 05:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

According to sources from the dictionary article, what you wrote isn't true; English had dictionaries in 1600s. -- Irn (talk) 03:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

"ends with a list of 8000 "hard words". Mulcaster does not define any of them." This 1- hardly constitutes a dictionary and 2- would not have included white race or white people. The cite should be to the first dictionary to include and define white people or white race. In fact the footnote has nothing to do with dictionaries.Nitpyck (talk) 03:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Washed-out photograph, Werner Heisenburg

Why on earth did Arjacent (talk · contribs) find it necessary to remove the photograph of Bar Refaeli and add a washed-out image of an apparently non-notable unidentified person, File:Blonde girl from Poland.jpg, to this article, with the explanation "Did not feel Israeli model represented the European ethnicity, replaced with a Slavic model." ? May I be forgiven for inferring that concerns over both correct exposure and notability have been subordinated to an Antisemitic agenda? By any reasonable anthropological criteria, Bar Refaeli is obviously white. I particularly note her blue eyes, light complexion, freckles, and Caucasian facial features; see this image from her website for further evidence. Indeed, if her name were "Jane Smith" from Fargo, North Dakota, USA, instead of "Bar Refaeli", from Hod HaSharon, Israel, I doubt we would be having this discussion. Since this is Misplaced Pages, not Führerpedia, the wacky "the Jews are not white" theory promoted by Adolph Hitler and contemporary neo-Nazi activists has no place here.

Furthermore, the fact that Werner Heisenberg was criticized as a "White Jew" by proponents of "Deutsche Physik" due to his support for the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics very much does "belong with main discussion", despite Arjacent's contention to the contrary . This article is describing "whiteness" as a sociological concept, not just as a genetic phenomenon. That Heisenberg's "whiteness" was impugned by elements of the German physics community due to a professional disagreement, with support from the SS, is a compelling example of some of the bizarre ways in which "whiteness" has been socially constructed, particularly by societies that were obsessed with race. Erik9 (talk) 04:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, to editors worried about ridding this article of photographs of anyone "Jewish", you're going to have to remove File:John Key National Party2.jpg too: see John_Key#Personal_life... Erik9 (talk) 04:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

ARJACENT VS ERIK9 DEBATE ON WHETHER BAR IS WHITE

According to the definition of white race, found on Misplaced Pages, the term refers to people of primarly European ancestry. Bar Rfaeli, being from an Asian country, does not meet this criteria. John Key, being an Ashkenazi Jew, may and you will note that no attempt was made to remove his picture. The 'may' part is dicussed below.

From both a sociological and genetic point of view, "white people" most commonly refers to people of European descent and not merely those with white pigmentation. For if it did, the defintion would be too general to be of any use. Afterall, some oriental, Semitic, and African people share similar phenotypes such as fair skin and light eyes and would likewise have a claim. Common experience should also tell you that Europeans differ in appearance (height, complexion, etc) and culture (language, food, etc) from other fair skinned peoples, and there is genetic evidence that suggests they are unique. I invite you to read on haplogroups and other indicators of race at the genetic level, here are some links to get you started: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf Broadly speaking, R1 at sufficient frequency is an indicator of who is ethnically European, and not the geographical borders.

Next, even if we went under the assumption that Israeli people were white they would represent less than 2% of the white population. Why would such a small fraction be represented so disproportionately, if at all? They would be a poor indicator of what white people and white culture is, by numbers alone and by their proximity to other semitic cultures. This brings me to the topic of Ashkenazi Jews. Because they are a mixture of european and semitic people, they are unique from whites in that they posses a J haplogroup (see links above). Likewise, a lot of them choose to adopt Jewish culture and identify themselves as being Jewish. However, there are others that chose to adopt european culture and physically resemble whites. For these reasons, whether Ashkenazi Jews are regarded as being white varies across individuals and is open to debate. Had John Key been removed your appeal would be warranted.

I feel the picture I chose is appropriate because only Western Europeans (R1b) appeared on the page. The Polish model represents Eastern Europeans (R1a) and the blonde/blue eye phenotype common to northern whites. Both of these groups are a more accurate descrption of what is generally meant by white people. To me, an Israeli model seems to be more of a political attempt at correctness than of exatcness. What is more absurd is claiming she is more notable. Putting aside the fact that notability has no bearing whatsoever when dicussing a general topic like 'white people', by what criteria is she "more notable". Because she has a website and a name? I personally never heard of her and only noticed her because of a picture that I suspected was in the wrong place.

Lastly, on a personal note, I find your charges of implied racism and neo-nazism most offensive. I would appretiate it if you tone down such remarks.

.... Regarding Deutsche Physik, I also feel it diverges from the main topic. It is not an example of "social whiteness" but rather one of "Jewish hate", and as such more approriately belongs to a thread on antisemitism. At the very most, it deserves a mention via external link. For these reasons I am reverting the picture I had chosen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arjacent (talk • contribs) 22:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Your argument regarding Y-DNA haplogroups is rather circular: you're claiming that those people who you define, a priori, as white have certain genetic characteristics, and that these characteristics indicate their whiteness. Furthermore, the claim that "Bar Rfaeli, being from an Asian country", cannot be white, is preposterous: one might as well claim that South Africans whose ancestors were British and Dutch immigrants cannot be white, because South Africa is an African country. Of course, somewhat like South Africa, the Jewish population of Israel is racially heterogeneous: it includes Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated from Europe, Sephardic Jews of Middle Eastern descent, and Ethiopian Jews of African ancestry. One can therefore draw no conclusions whatsoever about the race of a Jewish citizen of Israel solely as a result of their religious and/or cultural identity, and their nation of residence. As explained above, Bar Refaeli quite clearly appears to be of European ancestry; if it were possible for any Jewish person to be white, she should certainly qualify. This brings us, of course, to the wacky racial theories of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, Julius Streicher et al, as articulated in Mein Kampf, Der Stürmer, etc: they contended that Jewish people couldn't possibly be white, because the Jews were race unto themselves, separate and alien from "Aryan" Germans. I really hope that you aren't trying to employ Misplaced Pages for the same purpose...

Now, the virtue of including a photograph of Bar Refaeli is primarily that it infuriates white-supremacist racial theorists who seem to take a great interest in this article :) They cannot possibly stand having an image of someone who, based on her name and country of residence, is quite obviously Jewish even from a cursory reading of the image caption, and whose physical appearance is clearly white, since this would constitute rather embarrassing evidence against their "Jewish race" theory (and once that central tenet of neo-Nazism is disproved, every other associated claim collapses like a house of cards). Erik9 (talk) 04:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

.... I fail to see how my DNA haplogroups employ circular reasoning. I used the common definition of white, 'referring narrowly to people claiming ancestry exclusively from Europe' and showed why Israelites, who according to haplogroups share ancestry with other Asian/Middle Eastern country, cannot possibly fit this definition. The distincion between whites of South Africans is that they do, assuming that interbreeding did not take place or exists at small frequencies (because that would make them mulatto). Israelites are semitic, and their culture and food is vastly different from Europeans. Circumcision, Afro-Asiatic semtic langauges, keffiyeh, pitas, etc. are not things typically associated with 'white culture'. How can you call my definition a priori? If by your broader definition of whites Israelites are included, there should be more pictures of other semitic/arabic peoples such as Iranians and Palestinians, and mulattoes and light eyed orientals should likewise be included who likewise have similar phenotypes. You can see why being this general makes the term obsolete, because in virtually all colloquial talk (with the exception of some regions) the common definition is adopted. Yet you say my definition is not pragmatic? White and Caucasian are not synonymous; neither socially nor genetically.

What makes you so certain Refaeli has such a strong European ancestry? What makes you so certain she subscribes to white culture, according to common definition again, is synonomous with European culture (ie. Christmas, Indo-European langauge, pork, etc). You do realize that most Jewish people, regardless of what variety, largely subscribe to Jewish culture and identify themselves are being Jewish. This isn't a label; they CHOOSE to remain distinct as an ethnic group, hence the term DIASPORA. You completely side step the fact that such a small portion is deserving of such over representation (50% of all 'white people' images, less than 1% total general 'white people') - this gives future readers a very poor representation.

You side-step all of my points and continue with your Neo-Nazi accusations. I couldn't care what Hitler thought the white race is. If you are going to take an objective stance you cannot let something so political slant your view (oooo! Hitler did it, therefore it is evil). In fact, you have identified your purpose of posting Bar's picture: "the virtue of including a photograph of Bar Refaeli is primarily that it infuriates white-supremacist racial theorists who seem to take a great interest in this article". Not objective truth, not useful information, but a silly political agenda aimed at annoying few readers.

Since Israel, as explained above, is not a racially homogenous society, any argument predicated upon the claim that certain inferences can be drawn about any Israeli citizen due to generalizations about the country is fallacious. Naturally, if you define "white culture" in a way that is deliberately inimical to Judaism, eg, celebrating Christmas or consumption of pork, then no Jewish person could possibly qualify as "culturally white". There is, however, an interesting video of Bar Refaeli demonstrating native-speaker level fluency in one of the world's most common Indo-European languages: English. Is Refaeli still considered "not white" since she also speaks Hebrew at a native-speaker level? Would an otherwise white linguist become "not white" if she became highly fluent in a Hebrew or another Semitic language? Interesting questions to ponder :) Erik9 (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not pointing out the similarity of your claims that no Jewish citizen of Israel could possibly be white, even if they are the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated to Israel from Europe within the last 60 years, to Hitler, Goebbels, and Streicher's racial theories regarding Judaism for the purpose of making the facile assertion "Hitler did it, therefore it is evil" -- a claim which would be absurd if made with respect to anti-smoking campaigns, freeways, or anything which was only coincidentally promoted by Nazi Germany. Rather, the "no Jews could possibly be white" claim was invoked as a core justification for what is considered particularly evil about Hitler and Nazism: their mass murder of millions of people. That you've come to this article to support a key tenet of Nazi policies of murder by giving dispositive racial significance to a Hebrew name and Israeli citizenship is disconcerting, to say the least. Erik9 (talk) 03:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

An ethnicity is not something one chooses, it is something one is born into. Genetic studies show that Jewish people, and hence Israelites, are genetically very similar despite being of varied races (http://en.wikipedia.org/Miscegenation#Israel read Israel tab). This is largely because they choose to marry within Jewish families. Regardless of the fact that they reside in various countries, they rarely assimilate and culturally share more with one another than with the country they reside in. That is THEY CHOOSE TO REMAIN ISOLATED, DISTINCT GROUPS despite how widespread they are. The majority of Jewish people, particularily the Ashkenazi, share some European ancestry. But, according to haplogroups, these numbers are in very low frequencies and hence Israelites do not meet the crietia of 'primarly European descent'. Should 'white people' now refer to anyone who is mixed white? Is Barrack Obama a white president?

I did not choose Christmas, etc to purposefully exclude Jewish people, I choose it because that is what the majority of Europes practiced for many centuries and it is embedded into their culture. It also illustrates how the Jewish community chose to remain distinct from their neighbours, by maintaining their traditions. Residing in a country does not define ones ethnicity. Being fluent in a language does not make you part of an ethnic group either. So no, speaking Hebrew, English, French, Persian or whatever has no bearing on whether Bar is white. I believe Bar is not white because she is mixed Middle Eastern. In my opinion, she does not fully resemble what a typical European looks like - there is a touch of something else. Unless you choose to accept that mixed people subscribe to one ethinicity, or that Middle Eastern people are white, she cannot possibly be white. There are some Ashkenazi Jews, particularily those in New York, that look a lot more European. Even though they don't practice Judaism, they still identify themselves as Jewish before white. Are they white? Their appearance certainly suggests that at the genetic level, the semitic DNA has been watered down, but without actual haplogroups I can only conjecture.

Hitler, from what I understand, was concerned with an Aryan race and viewed anyone without blonde hair and blue eyes as sub-human. Aryan and white are not synonymous. His plan was to eliminate a large number of Europeans as well, particularily the Slavs. Not because he view them as not being white, but because he viewed them as not being Aryan.

No really, it's untenable to distance yourself from Nazism only through an absurd caricature of Hitler's racial theories. Adolph Hitler had neither blond hair nor blue eyes, so to claim that "Hitler... viewed anyone without blonde hair and blue eyes as sub-human" is bizarre: Hitler met his end through a self-inflicted gunshot wound, but his suicide was related to Germany's imminent military defeat and avoidance of capture and execution, not due to a belief in his own racial inferiority. Furthermore, to the extent that this article describes a sociological concept, it isn't concerned with genetics, but rather with who is regarded as "white" on the basis of their physical appearance. Bar Refaeli would be regarded as "white" in appearance by almost everyone except Hitler, his fellow National Socialists, and their contemporary protégés. Perhaps her photograph should included with more delicately worded caption to that effect. Erik9 (talk) 20:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

For the last time, do not call me a neo-nazi. Your strawman has no place in this debate. I already said I was not as intimately familiar with Hitler and his racial ideaology as you clearly are. For all I know it could have been a subjective preference for a certain appearance or on genetic analysis that was spot on. His political agendas, even if they were destructive, should not sway objective science. You condemn me for my use of definitions, yet act as if you get to call all the shots. By what token is "white people" a sociological concept? If that were the indeed the case, why would images be needed at all? This line of reasoning suggests that you indeed acknowledge there is a phenotypical aspect to 'white people', and what better way to study this than with genetics? Are you suggesting that your subjective opinion of 'who looks white' take prominence??

In terms of sociology, Jewish culture and European culture differ a great deal too, as I have already pointed out. So what is it that makes Jewish people and European people so alike as to make them one homogenous ethnicity? Please enlighten me.

And even IF (which the above suggests is not possible) Israeli's were somehow equivalent to European whites, how would a picture of an Israeli be a good representation? They are less than 2% of the population, they subscribe to different cultures, and they are mixed with middle easterners. Hmmmm... sounds like a good candidate for a seperate ethnicity, don't you think?

White person is a misleading term, as skin color is not the only criteria. Even then, 'white skin' is more accurately peach/yellow. Unfortunately it is one we are stuck with. Just like Asian to refer to mongloid people (chinese, korean, japanese, etc) and not to Indians, who make up almost half the people of the continent. Or American refering only to North Americans.

Contradictory statements

In the second paragraph under "Origins of Light Skin", these two statements appear:

"This probably explains the greater variety of skin color found outside sub-Saharan Africa." "Though African populations are relatively dark, according to a recent study they possess a greater diversity in skin complexion than all other populations."

These appear to be a direct contradiction. The second statement has no citation, so perhaps it is unfounded, but it may just be sloppy editing. Be that as it may, both statements cannot be true; if they are conflicting views supported by different academic authorities, that should be stated. However, I don't feel I know enough about the subject to edit, so if someone who knows about this can clarify the situation it would be helpful.

CattOfTheGarage (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

So why is there no mention of the Ainu of Japan? They have white skin. And early anthropologists were perplexed over their anomalous existence, some of them hypothesizing (IIRC) that there was a prehistoric white which connected them to Europeans. -- llywrch (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

They don't actually have white skin, just lighter than some of their neighbors. Dougweller (talk) 19:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

One early use of the term appears in the Amherst Papyri, which were scrolls written in ancient Ptolemaic Greek. It contained the use of black and white in reference to human skin color. The cited reference says exactly the opposite. Nitpyck (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

images

I can see this article usefully including images. But this will not amount to a gallery of Miss Iceland and assorted other "very white" specimens. It would rather need to be a publication verifiably intended to illustrate skin colour, such as a systematic presentation of Fitzpatrick skin types I to IV, as in the images here. Having no images is better than WP:SYNTH galleries cobbled together based on aesthetic or similarly arbitrary criteria. --dab (𒁳) 17:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

What you deride as "WP:SYNTH galleries cobbled together based on aesthetic or similarly arbitrary criteria" is, in fact, the accepted method of assembling images for all Misplaced Pages articles except this one - for instance, the lead photograph in the Tulip article, the featured image File:Tulip - floriade canberra.jpg, was not published in any reliable horticultural source attesting to its botanical designation, and was undoubtedly selected based on "aesthetic... criteria". Fortunately, per Misplaced Pages:No_original_research#Original_images, the accepted method of selecting images for inclusion in every article except this one is consistent with Misplaced Pages policy. As Misplaced Pages is not censored, this article should not be subjected to heightened image source restrictions merely due to certain editors' distaste for its subject matter :) Erik9 (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, due to an acute shortage of freely licensed images included in "a publication verifiably intended to illustrate skin colour", the repudiation of Misplaced Pages:No_original_research#Original_images for this article only would effectively amount to a prohibition of images here. If you do wish to entirely exclude images from this article (while apparently being unconcerned with the fact that the counterpart article Black people is richly illustrated with images largely unpublished in any reliable sources), then it is incumbent upon you to explain why this article deserves a unique, counter-policy treatment. Erik9 (talk) 18:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Erik9, are you even aware of the long history of debate on image use both here and at Talk:Black people? Before you take this any further, I recommend you acquaint yourself with it. --dab (𒁳) 19:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

RfC: images

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Shall this article include images, and if so, under what conditions? Erik9 (talk) 18:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll say it again, this article can usefully include images, but only based on a systematic approach. No random galleries of the "Miss Iceland" kind. My suggestion is to compile a good illustration of "Fitzpatrick types I to IV" (yes, Miss Iceland can be type I). This can appear under the "physical appearance" section. Other images may be appropriate under the "history" section. Nobody is disputing there can in principle be images here. But past experience has shown that allowing random images quickly degenerates into WP:SYNTH galleries of dubious merit. Present your suggested images here and see if they find consensus for inclusion. --dab (𒁳) 19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

compare the sparing and well-balanced use of images at black people. This is the result of a long uphill battle to remove huge galleries of mugshots. One important point in any presentation of images illustrating "white people" (as opposed to a large range of possibilities of other images, including historical literature, maps, diagrams and the like), will be a decent balance between the various subtypes, i.e. alongside the light "Nordic" type, we'll also need to show the darker tans of the Mediterranean or Arab/Berber "Middle Eastern" type still included under "white". The difficult point is that "white" as a racial term isn't directly related to skin lightness: there are people falling under "colored" in United States which will have significantly lighter skin than Middle Eastern / Eurasian people falling under "white". --dab (𒁳) 19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Please review the discussion at Talk:White_people#Washed-out_photograph.2C_Werner_Heisenburg. If the likes of Arjacent (talk · contribs) are going to object to an image of Bar Refaeli because maybe she might be of slightly Middle Eastern ancestry, then you're going to have a heck of a time including a photograph of anyone who is primarily of Arab/Berber descent. Furthermore, I find your arguments inconsistent with your editing - removing all images from the article because you disagree with their selection or presentation is somewhat like blanking the text of the article due to a distaste for its rhetorical style. Misplaced Pages is built through repeated and incremental improvement, not massive page-blanking - please try to do better. Erik9 (talk) 19:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

• If images are to be used, they should be used in a way that increases the reader's understanding of the subject. They should not simply be used for decorative purposes. So, to begin with, there should be some obvious anchor to the text in the section to which the image is included. Any images used should also have some sort of encyclopaedic value. Most people think "northern European" when they think "white". Images could show diversity in the meaning of the term - for example, "white" in the US includes Arabs and Iranians, but excludes people like Beyonce or Mariah Carey; most Puerto Ricans self-identify as "white"; in Brazil "white" relates in part to SES. Bob Marley was rejected as "white", while Haile Selassie was embraced as "black". If issues like that are addressed (not saying they should or shouldn't be), then images are very useful. But images added simply as a gallery aren't very useful, especially if they only show one aspect of "whiteness". Guettarda (talk) 19:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, to the extent that this article describes a sociological concept, it should clearly illustrate the meaning attached to to usage of the term. Jóhanna Vala Jónsdóttir would be considered "white" under almost any definition. Bar Refaeli would be regarded as "white" everywhere except Nazi Germany, and by contemporary neo-Nazi activists. Mohammad Khatami meets certain definitions of "whiteness", but not others. Surely a restructuring of the image selection to more clearly depict the article's subject matter would be preferable to just blanking everything. Erik9 (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I thought this RFC was about the general issue of including images, not the specific issue of whether this version was preferable to this version. If that's the case, then I definitely support the latter version. That gallery of images does nothing to improve the article and creates a misleadingly narrow impression of the term. If images are to be included, they need to be appropriately anchored to text, and they need to convey a sense of the breadth in which the term is used. A gallery of "nordics" is worse than nothing. Guettarda (talk) 20:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The "unless it's complete and comprehensive, blank everything" editorial approach is unworkable on Misplaced Pages. Consider an article that I wrote, Nemifitide. One might correctly observe that the article omits specific information about the results of animal testing, and is attributed to a single source, though a large number of references are available. The proper remedy for such concerns is to improve the article yourself (or to consult with other editors having sufficient expertise in pharmacology). If, instead, you decided to repeatedly blank the entire article, on the grounds that an empty page is better than giving undue weight to Nemifitide's molecular structure and effects on neurotransmitter receptors, you would be blocked for vandalism. . Erik9 (talk) 21:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I said nothing of the sort. Please see WP:AGF and WP:BATTLEGROUND Guettarda (talk) 22:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Since you're claiming that you didn't say what you said, here are some relevant quotations and diffs to illustrate that you did indeed claim that an image selection you perceived as suboptimal was worse than no images at all, while making no offer to improve the article's images in any way:

images added simply as a gallery aren't very useful, especially if they only show one aspect of "whiteness".

If images are to be included, they need to be appropriately anchored to text, and they need to convey a sense of the breadth in which the term is used. A gallery of "nordics" is worse than nothing.

Erik9 (talk) 23:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Since you decided to re-insert your off-topic comments about Nemifitide and your false accusations against me, I have removed your false accusations, per WP:NPA. Guettarda (talk) 04:42, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

wth Erik9, can you snap out of your hostile, antagonistic attitude some time soon? This is not how we make progress. You have been told that your suggestions will be considered in good faith as soon as you submit to WP:BRD like everyone else. I would really like this to become a matter of discussion of content, as opposed to the simple matter of user (mis)conduct you have been forcing us to consider this so far. --dab (𒁳) 07:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Support inclusion of images. Suggest using people with light colored skin. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Conditional support Images should be include but only to illustrate the points being made in the text. There is no point in having 'Here are some white people' images. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed image reconfiguration

It's much easier to criticize than create. Since I welcome the accomplishment of challenging tasks on Misplaced Pages, I have assembled a new set of images for this article, with topically relevant captions describing various social constructions of "whiteness". Thoughts? Erik9 (talk) 22:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Good examples! USchick (talk) 23:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

No your captions create a degree of whiteness scale also many of nordic ancestry are not blond hair and blue eyed, can't find somone of nordic ancestry without those features, this will not be turned into a nodicist fun fest,i mean even the jewish girl has nordic features.--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you seriously arguing that the person whose photograph was selected to depict people of Nordic ancestry looks too Nordic? What legitimate purpose would be served by deliberate circumlocution and avoidance of the most obvious illustration of the subject matter? Some implicit "degree of whiteness scale" is an unavoidable result of accurately describing sociological phenomena under which some people have been regarded as "white" more often, or "more white", than others. Even wholly justified disagreement with social behaviors doesn't imply that we should censor them - per WP:NPOV, our articles relate actual phenomena rather than our editors' normative ideals. Erik9 (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Your comment that "even the jewish girl has nordic features" is ironic given that, in my argument with Arjacent (talk · contribs) above, he asserted that "I believe Bar is not white because she is mixed Middle Eastern. In my opinion, she does not fully resemble what a typical European looks like - there is a touch of something else..." This is perhaps a compelling illustration of the extent to which race as a social construct varies according one's viewpoint... Erik9 (talk) 04:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Or if we need a nordic why not add bjork last time i check she was of nordic ancestry she does come from iceland you don't get more north than that,and keep the jewish girl who has more sterotypcical nordic features so maybe this article can go outside the sterotype a bit--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Way too much passive voice and vagueness ... a long time ago Wobble had a photo array that was actually educational. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Both vagueness and the passive voice are necessary elements in describing social phenomena at a high level of generality. Erik9 (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Vagueness (and a high level of generality) are not always apropriate and sometimes deceptive, as is the case here. The passive voice is almost never necessary, and usually bad, as is the case here. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I think someone took it down wobble additions citeing original reasearch--Wikiscribe (talk) 03:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm Bjork is nordic is she not she is from scandinavia right??Eri(K) yes we are trying to keep it neutral by not leting nordisit turn it into a blond hair blue eyed festival and there are plenty of notations on facts certain societies did not consider certain people white, for one Germans were not white in the united states at one time.In your pic caption nordics have always been considered white so why not add bjork she is nordic she is from iceland...and she is much more well known than that miss iceland fav of yours,or maybe you don't want bjork because she does not fit the stererotype of the nordic that was created by racialist of the viking babe...I am being neutral i swept in just in time most of the pics that were added were of the light hair lights eyes varity along with mostly germanics ethnics...i think the way you want to procede you might be better off working at this article }--Wikiscribe (talk) 05:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

You first raised the issue of hair and eye color. Attempting to find an image of someone of Nordic ancestry who you think looks the least Nordic amounts to the use of Misplaced Pages for political activism, grossly contrary to WP:NPOV. Erik9 (talk) 23:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Consider, for a moment, the application of your skewed logic to the cat article: "The lead image, File:Domestic cat cropped.jpg, looks too much like a cat. Far from dispelling misconceptions about domestic felines, it only serves to reinforce stereotypes about cat-ness. What the top of the article really needs is a good photograph of a Canadian Hairless..." Erik9 (talk) 03:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What is this "Aryan" nonsense above? Semites were always considered part of the "white" Caucasian race, even in the darkest times of scientific racism. At no point has "white" been equalled to "Aryan" or "Nordic". We need to consider (a) "white people" in terms of skin tone (Fitzpatrick types) and (b) the racial classification "white". The image gallery can only ever illustrate the skin tone thing, and should be restricted to the "light skin" section. The racial aspect obviously varies in history and geographically. But at all times, "white" has been associated with the "Caucasian" race, which included the Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean and possibly other subtypes. The main article for this is Caucasian race, and the relevant image is File:Europaeid types.jpg. Because this is a historical concept of race, we cannot illustrate it with modern images, "in Misplaced Pages's voice" as it were, but we need to state, here is the 1890 Meyer's Lexicon definition, here is Coon's definition, etc. --dab (𒁳) 07:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Your claim that

Semites were always considered part of the "white" Caucasian race, even in the darkest times of scientific racism. At no point has "white" been equalled to "Aryan" or "Nordic"

is blatantly false. For instance, German physicist Werner Heisenberg was criticized as a "White Jew" by proponents of "Deutsche Physik" due to his support for the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics. Heisenberg's critics in the "Deutsche Physik" movement adduced the term "white" to their disparagement only to distinguish Heisenberg from an "actual" Jewish person, as their allegations were not that Heisenberg was Jewish in the Nazis' racial sense of the term, but only that he was an active researcher in and proponent of sciences to which Jewish people had made significant contributions. This clearly reflects the use of "white" in the sense of "Aryan", by people who were mainstream Germans at the time. Erik9 (talk) 00:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Heck, even Misplaced Pages uses "white" at least partially in the sense of "Aryan". Consider the following excerpt from our White supremacy article:

White supremacy is the belief that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds... White supremacy has often resulted in anti-black racism and antisemitism.

Obviously, this use of the term "white", both in the text of the article, and its title, makes little sense if "Semites were always considered part of the 'white' Caucasian race, even in the darkest times of scientific racism..." Thorough research is always preferable to counterfactual pontifications... Erik9 (talk) 03:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a gallery of Fitzpatrick types I to IV, without the highly dubious tangents on Nazi issues that found their way into the image suggestions above for some reason.

• Albinism
• Fitzpatrick I, "Celtic" or "very light Caucasian" type
• Fitzpatrick II, "Nordic" or "light Caucasian" type
• Fitzpatrick III , "Alpine" or "average Caucasian" type
• Fitzpatrick IV, "Mediterranean" or "dark Caucasian" type

This is what I consider a coherent suggestion of a systematic selection of images directly connected to a specific part of the article (the "light skin" part). The "racial" sections will need a different approach. --dab (𒁳) 08:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay dab this is going back to random gallery of sorts i mean the last one we had were at least based on reliable government sources of people who come from certian regions who can be considered white,also this is not the Skin color article, i live in the states and no modern day job application or governments forms states put down white and than add your sub type ,that is turning this article to a 19th centrury view on race ,why must we opt for having pics based on 19th or why not just add pics based on modern day mundane sense of white or not having no pics because consensus after consensus has produced a no pic consensus (though i know a consensus can change),because lets face it people can keep citeing that "well the black people article has pics",when people know damn well the white race has been more scutinized in history than the black race ,partly because of made up sub types by 19th centrury raclist, in which most of them just so happen to be of germanic ethnic origin...also a gallery you are proposing is pov ..i believe this article is suppose to be the more modern view on the White Race based on reliable sources not based the fact some people still adhere to sub types,also pics that are proposed in this matter creates an inaccurate steroetype that everyone from certain regions look only one certain way.imean if you want to base picture on sub types these are the articles for that Alpine race Nordic race Mediterranean race or the Caucasian race--Wikiscribe (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Dab's gallery is useful in that it shows some of the breadth of what is considered "white". The main problem with it isn't POV, it's a matter of making a judgement call as to what class to put each person into. It may be problematic in that it gives too much weight to the Fitzpatrick scale. But illustrating variability in a concept isn't POV, not unless what you're doing is misrepresenting that diversity (like the earlier collection of images that was almost entirely "nordic". The challenge is to illustrate the diversity without putting undue weight on the ends of the scale.

That said, galleries are beside the point. What we need is appropriate images - ones that serve an illustrative purpose, that expand the reader's understanding of the specific set of text to which they're anchored. Guettarda (talk) 05:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a consensus that not only black people, but every Misplaced Pages article for which free images are available should include them, even where there is a significant controversy as to the precise choice of illustrations. This is not just our practice, but, per WP:NOTCENSORED, our policy. Proponents of image exclusion, then, bear the heavy burden of justifying an otherwise counter-policy and widely unacceptable behavior. Erik9 (talk) 00:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss improvements to this article, not chemistry articles, not the black people article. Please abide by the talkpage guidelines. Guettarda (talk) 05:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

these were pictures on the right an left that were up via a consensus a while back that actually had some real educational value but somebody took it down as original research a while back since you are an admin can you confirm this? also please tell me the difference between what dab and eir(k)are proposing belown which was the previous random picture gallery that was removed by another admin for such and such reason which was not placing any undue wiehgt on any scales but was referencing various governmntal definitons of white--Wikiscribe (talk) 16:42, 23 June 2009 (UTC)...

• Sami woman
• Tarja Halonen President of Finland Tarja Halonen President of Finland
• Karl Marx Philosopher and political economist.
• Albert Einstein, physicist.
• Yasser Arafat, Palestinian nationalist and Nobel Peace Prize laureate.
• Ruhollah Khomeini, Ayatollah and first Supreme Leader of Iran Ruhollah Khomeini, Ayatollah and first Supreme Leader of Iran
• José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Prime Minister of Spain
• Muhammad Ali Jinnah founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah founder of Pakistan
• Rania Al-Yassin, Queen consort of Jordan
• Éamon de Valera, freedom fighter, Taoiseach and President of Ireland
• Nursultan Nazarbayev, President of Kazakhstan
• Mikhail Saakashvili, President of Georgia
• Meriam George, Miss Egypt 2006, Coptic Egyptian
• Noam Chomsky linguist, philosopher, political activist and author
• Darren Gough, cricketer, fast bowler
• Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, wife of Charles, Prince of Wales

Wikiscribe, I am not sure what the above is supposed to be. I hope this isn't something you propose for inclusion. In my book, it is a crass illustration of why we need to be careful with images here, because that is what tends to happen to articles if we are not. --dab (𒁳) 10:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

These are sets of images (if you have edited here before dab) that were already in the ariticle--Wikiscribe (talk) 14:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I think both dab and Wikiscribe make siginifcant advances over EriK's initial proposal. dab's proposal is POV, but this is as much a virtue as a vice. Virtue: dab clearly identifies the POV (Fitzpatrik scale); I appreciate this. Vice: it is only one POV, and NPOV requires us to provide all significant POVs. But this is a problem that can be solved: provide deliberately contrasting galleries, each one illustrating a distinct POV. I would not object to this. Wikiscribe provides an alternative, which is to provide clusers of photos that illistrate problems in defining/classifying "whiteness." I like this too. What both dab and wikiscribe's proposals have in common is to use photos to illustrate specific parts of the text, although they are illustrating very different elements. I think this is the right direction. As long as any editor tries to create a gallery of "white people" we will probably be violating NOR by imposing an editor's own view of whiteness. But if we use photos to illustrate specific parts of the article, we both avoid NOR problems, and significantly add o the educational value of the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The Fitzpatrick scale isn' a "pov", it is the standard for classifying your skin tone to tell you about your risk for skin cancer. What the hell is "pov" about this? As I said, this is about skin tone exclusively, to be included under the "light skin" section, and it does not have any direct relation to racial classifications. It is hardly "pov" to state that some people have lighter skin than others, and that dermatologists usually put them into six categories for classification purposes, one "black", one "brown" and four grades of "white". --dab (𒁳) 10:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

slruberstein those images on the left and right of beddoe warren harding etc etc which indroduced thought provoking images to the article, those were the images that were in the article previously which were produced by user wobble.Also dab this is not the "skin color" or a dermtalogical article and it is pov trying to pick out who is this type and that type and also gives the appearence of degrees or priority of whiteness that is not even necssary,how is what you are proposeing any better than the other gallery that use to be up(which i have found from the arhcives and is up here right now) ,it's just a randon gallery of people i.e i would rather put up pics of people that can be considered white by various governmental sources rather than trying to impose sub types which could place undue on certain scales as the admin further up expressed concern about, what i see is people trying to use a dermatalogical scale as cover to indroduce 19th centruy racialism into the articles main focal point which i know by experience here will be in fact the gallery . This is not about skin cancer dab--Wikiscribe (talk) 14:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

dab, Misplaced Pages articles do not provie truth, they provide verifiable points of view. Our articles provide accounts only of views - if it is not a "view," o does not pertain toa view, we do not put it in. My identifying the scale you use as a POV is not a put down. My comment was supporting your edit; oce again you seem to be so defensive I do not understand. Wikiscribe, I fear you and dab both seem to miss the point of my post which is that illustration is a good principle for deciding on photos. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

you are right, Slrubenstein, if you are coming from a really far-out solipsistic or mysticist point of view, it is indeed "only a view" that there is a planet known as "Terra" populated by beings known as "hoo-mans", covered by a strange sort of membrane known as "skin". But there is also WP:DUE and WP:REDFLAG which saves us from that sort of approach.

but I am indeed glad we agree on something, and I am not being defensive. I am saying we need to approach this with common sense, and we need to find common ground. Extreme interpretations of "only views" would make it impossible to display any images at all on most Misplaced Pages articles. What we need to do is recognize the problems involved here and find a way to tackle them that is acceptable to everyone interested in bona fide debate. --dab (𒁳) 12:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

dab, did I write something insulting or patronizing to you, as your comment was to me? If so I apologize, it was not my intention to insult you. We sometimes disagree but disagree in in and of itself is not an attack or insult. If I did something o justify your attempt to mock me, I apologize. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Bachman, how come images illustrating ideologies such as the one drop rule, or the one showing that people from India or Somalia are sometimes considered "white" (both cited from reliable sources) are " crass illustration of why we need to be careful with images here"? I assume it's because you personally can't stomach images of people who aren't lily white on the article. On the other hand you want people allegedly to be of "Nordic" ancestry in the article who conform to your personal interpretation of who is "white enough" for the article. You continue to push (often without any argument, only insults or put downs) for the removal of any image from Misplaced Pages that isn't white enough for your personal tastes, as you have always done. Alun (talk) 05:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

"Light skin" section

it should be kept in mind that at present light skin is a {{R to section}} pointing here. The section discussing the purely physiological aspects of skin tone can in principle also become a standalone article, summarized here under WP:SS.

I have added the Fitzpatrick illustrations to that section. They are properly part of the "light skin" topic, and may or may not be retained in the case of an article split. --dab (𒁳) 12:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

apartheid-picture

Is it really necessary to have the segregated-beach sign from South Africa in this article? Whoever put it there, please provide a reasonable rationale.

I will certainly not insist on any particular image, so feel free to remove it for now. The rationale is as follows: this article is about two related concepts:

• the phenotypical phenomenon of light skin in individuals
• the notion of "white people" or a "white race" as an identifiable group

The former is simply a physiological point: skin can be lighter or darker, and this has a certain genetic background etc. But the idea of "whites" as a self-designation, in contrast to non-whites or coloreds, originates in the context of colonialism and slavery, and historical instances of racial segregation along the lines of "white" vs. "colored" is illustrated by signs saying "whites only". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seb az86556 (talk • contribs)

Note that from an US perspective, "racial segregation" as it were automatically implies a separation of "white" vs. "colored", but as the article points out, this is due to the special situation in the colonies. When there was racial segregation in Europe, it wasn't, of course, along the lines of "white", because everybody was white anyway. It was along less visible, not necessarily phenotypical criteria. The images of signs saying "whites only" illustrate the existence of a racial notion of "whites" in the former colonies. You would be hard put to find a similar sign in Europe. The European racists notoriously came up with the idea of "Nordic" or "Aryan" vs. "Alpine" or "Semitic", all of these categories being entirely within the "white" label. --dab (𒁳) 08:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

As I tell Seb az86556 above, I certainly do not insist on any particular image, and I fully submit to WP:BRD here, but if it comes to edits like this, anonymous image removals without any edit summary let alone talkpage participation, I would suggest that semiprotection would help in keeping this entirely above the board. --dab (𒁳) 12:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Why was Putin removed?

He's an excellent example of a white person. Just because he's slavic and not germanic?--VladimirPutinNickGriffin (talk) 16:09, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

um, Putin is "an excellent example of a white person"? Well, yes, like about 2 billion other living people. Are you suggesting we turn this into a comprehensive "list of white people" or what? --dab (𒁳) 17:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Klaus Hentschel (Editor) and Ann M. Hentschel (Editorial Assistant and Translator) Physics and National Socialism: An Anthology of Primary Sources (Birkhäuser, 1996). In this book, see: Document #55 ’White Jews’ in Science pp. 152-157.
2. ^ Klaus Hentschel (Editor) and Ann M. Hentschel (Editorial Assistant and Translator) Physics and National Socialism: An Anthology of Primary Sources (Birkhäuser, 1996). In this book, see: Document #55 ’White Jews’ in Science pp. 152-157.
3. Bonnet, Alastair (2000) White Identities: "Nevertheless a much stronger current of scientific research supporters the theory that Europeans were but one expression of a wider racial group (termed sometimes Caucasian, Aryan and white), a group that included peoples from Asia and North Africa... in A Geography of Africa (Lyde 1914) 'The non-European population of Africa belongs mainly to one of two races, the White and the Black' Amongst the whites of African are included 'Arabs and Abysinians... Berbers and Tuaregs, Masai and Somalis'" p. 18
4. Many white Americans are now thought to have some recent African Ancestry. For example see passing and Afro-European Genetic Admixture in the United States
5. Not without controversy. There are those who see Obama as bi- (or multi-) racial, these people claim that Obama is just as white as he is black. See Behind the Scenes: Is Barack Obama black or biracial? and Obama And The Politics Of Being Biracial
6. Sykes, B. (2006) Blood of the Isles plate 8.
7. Bonnet, Alistair (2000) White Identities. p28.

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