Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:25, 13 August 2009

Please, don't make redirects when having articles with heated topics, discuss it. Kubura (talk) 07:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

According to the theorists of this diasystem, all Croatian dialects, as well as standard Croatian language are part of this diasystem.
On the other hand, neither Croatian dialects neither Croatian standard language is not the same thing as "Serbocroatian".
Serbocroatian was official language in SR Serbia. In SR Croatia, it was not. In SR Croatia, the official language was "Croatian" and "Croatian or Serbian" (1971-1989). The latter was a kind of "light Croatian", for speakers of Serbian to understand. It contained more internationalisms, lot of unique Croatian words were kicked out of use as "too nationalistic"; if there was a word in Croatian that was unique Croatian and the one as same as in Serbian, the latter was in use, while the unique one was designed as "archaic" or even "nationalistic". In total, policy of violent making of Croatian and Serbian closer). Kubura (talk) 13:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You are talking about terms. Misplaced Pages generally doesn't have articles about terms, unless there are enough sources and enough to be said about the term itself (as opposed to the topic that the term denotes). In this case, there's really no need for that.

There is no doubt that both "Central South Slavic diasystem" and "Serbo-Croatian language" are two different names for the same thing. The usage of one or the other name by individual authors implies that they have different opinions about that thing, not that they're talking about two different things.

In wikipedia, the title of the article is whatever the most common English name for the topic is, which is frequently not the most correct name. You can argue at talk:Serbo-Croatian language that that article should be moved to this name, but we're not going to have two articles about it. Zocky | picture popups 13:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly the same thing. A redirect is in order, otherwise it's like a POV fork. - Francis Tyers · 18:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This discussion should be moved to the talk page of Serbo-Croatian language..

Zocky, the notion of 'Serbo-Croatian language' in a sense "Chakavian+Kajkavian+Štokavian+Torlakian dialects' is nowadays obsolete and politically incorrect, and carefully avoided in all recent English literature not writen by professors of Serbo-Croatian or Serb nationalists, usually in favour of some ad-hoc coined terms such as "BCS complex" and similar. The #Dialects section of SC article and content that is duplicated from/to Štokavian article should be moved either here, or elsewhere where community decides. I can see on the talk page of the SC article that somebody already raised that issue, but it was not resolved, and Mrcina dude was overrun by the clique that runs the dead "Serbo-Croatian" wikiprojects. ^_^

Dialects are regional designations, so you have "Croatian dialects", "Serbian dialects" and "Bosnian and Herzegovian dialects" (not "Bosnian dialects" since Bosnian/Bosniak language exist only as a standard language, not as a set of dialects). Communists enforced the notion of "Serbo-Croatian dialects" on the basis of borders and "brotherhood and unity" spirit, both of which are todays very different.

Speaking of Kajkavian and Chakavian as "Serbo-Croatian dialects" is anachronistic and politically incorrect, and the current wording in the SC article is directly in contradiction what the articles on Čakavian and Kajkavian say in their lead section. Modern dialectology books are very careful not to include Croatian-only dialects (both on regional, and centuries-old literary grounds) in some "Serbo-Croatian" scheme that would leave e.g. Slovenian dialects, or Serbian dialect of Torlakian in the scheme would would cut it of Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects, as that would be absurd.

IMHO the whole dialects section of #SC should be simply deleted because there is no more a state that this set of dialects would belong to, there is no genetic justification to bump Kajkavian/Čakavian/Štokavian/Torlakian on one pile and call it..something, and no need to just duplicate what can and has been said in much more details on the respective articles on dialects of Croatia, Serbia, B&H and Montenegro (and maybe Kosovo, soon to be extinct judging from the decline on the population of Serbs ^_^) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you understand what I say?
According to the theorists of this diasystem, all Croatian dialects, belong here (that means, Čakavian and Kajkavian also).
Čakavian and Kajkavian are the dialects that Serbs don't have, nor Bosniacs nor Montenegrins, soleley Croats. So, simply, this cannot be "Serbocroatian".
You're giving wrong information.
Also, Bosnian and Montenegrin language belong to that diasystem.
So-called "Serbo-Croatian" is an insult for Bosniacs and Montenegrins. That way, you're imposing the name of Croats and Serbs to those two nations, and we are not allowed to do such things.
Further, "Serbocroatian" or "Serbian or Croatian" (I have to see the proper name), that was in official use in SR Bosnia and Herzegovina (during SFRY) isn't the same language as todays Bosnian language (as well as ICTY's so called "bcs" - it has nothing with Bosnian and Croatian language). It didn't had their specific forms.
However, Bosnian language is part of Central South Slavic diasystem, according to the theorists of this diasystem (including the Bosniak Dževad Jahić).
Greetings, Kubura (talk) 08:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Very nice discussion, Zocky. I had to barf green to write something, while you simply redirect, "who gives a damn about others' contributions". Kubura (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Ivan Štambuk.
Central South Slavic diasystem encompasses all the dialects (no matter if they're standardized or not) of all nations involved here: Croats, Serbs, Bosnian Muslims and Montenegrins.
So-called "Serbocroatian language" encompasses only two nations: Serbs and Croats. It was a standardized language of SR Serbia, SR Montenegro and in SR Bosnia-Herzegovina. No dialect belong to this category. Kubura (talk) 02:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

CSSD is in that sense synonymous to the term Serbo-Croatian in a sense "collection of dialects (as opposed to the sense "standardised neoštokavian in 2 minor variants). That has been abundantly explained to you above and elsewhere, but it somehow simply cannot penetrate your nationalist logic. SC has nothing to do with "nations" - when Serbo-Croatian mostly developed (13th-16th century), neither Croats or Serbs existed as nations. Later the term was used retroactively as a term of compromise because commies didn't feel like bestowing nationlity upon "Muslim Slavs", and many (most) Montenegrins in nationalist/ehtnic sense identified themselves with Serbs. Essentially the term CSSD is a lame attempt by Brozović to replace one meaning of the term Serb-Croatian, that has largely failed, being endorsed only by radical nationalist Croatian pseudo-linguists. It's not a valid genetic clade (see Matasović: 2008), and it introduces absolutely nothing new except more confusion into terminologically heavily contaminated field. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

So Kubura, if u want to discuss the terminological distinction bitween SC and CSSD, please open up discussion on the talk page of ], as this issue pertains to this article more than everything else (if necessary, we can {{main}} it to the master article). What you are trying to do is to pretend that these 2 have nothing in common, your next step supposedly being rewikifying every instance of ] to ]. C'mon, we're smarter than that. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ivan Štambuk, don't mess into things that you don't know.
"and many (most) Montenegrins in nationalist/ehtnic sense identified themselves with Serbs". Do you know the difference between "national sense" and "nationalist sense"? Second, "most Montenegrins". We cannot know that. That's your original work. Please, read WP:OR.
The term "Serbo-Croatian" was previously been used for "Central South Slavic diasystem". However, since the introduction of that term, we can still make difference between the official language and the diasystem.
" SC has nothing to do with "nations" - when Serbo-Croatian mostly developed (13th-16th century), neither Croats or Serbs existed as nations.".
Croats and Serbs did exist as nations in those centuries. But not so nationally formed and not so nationally awakened/nationally conscious as today.
"...but it somehow simply cannot penetrate your nationalist logic". Word "nationalist" is heavy accusing word in the West, Ivane. It has very negative conotations. Giving of such attributes to other user is etiquetting, WP:ETIQ, a forbidden way of behaviour on WP. Don't try to "win" a discussion by throwing the mud on the opponent.
"when Serbo-Croatian mostly developed (13th-16th century), " (??????).
Have you read any linguist book? Have you ever read Brozović's work from 1987 "Hrvatski jezik, njegovo mjesto unutar južnoslavenskih i drugih slavenskih jezika, njegove povijesne mijene kao jezika hrvatske književnosti" (in Zbornik "Hrvatska književnost u evropskom kontekstu"). Recently it was re-published as "Povijest hrvatskoga književnog i standardnoga jezika", Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 2008., ISBN 978-953-0-60845-0. Then read some of constructive criticism/additions to that work by Croatian academist Stjepan Babić in "Hrvatski jučer i danas", Školske novine, Zagreb, 1995, ISBN 953-160-052-X.
There you'll see how long and how has Croatian language been developing (with some comparison with other Slavic languages, including Serbian). You've skipped half a millenium just like that. There you'll see that Croatian and Serbian had separate lines of development. Kubura (talk) 01:03, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ivan Štambuk, don't mess into things that you don't know. - Err, dear Kubura, my knowledge of the historical phonology of Serbo-Croatian and its dialects is quite comprehensive, and prob. everyone who has interacted with me here knows that. As much as your "arguments" are amusing, they generally represent a minority PoV that has been discarded by modern science. Since I have absolutely no intention of wasting my time discussing with first-class nationalist troll such as yourself on some obscure talkpage no-one actually pays attention to, and you having ignored my requests to bring up this contentious issue on the Talk:Serbo-Croatian language, I'll do it myself and hereby invite you to continue discussing it there before indulging into further restorations of this page, lest I'll be forced to report your disruptive forking behaviour to the respective authorities with actual linguistic competence. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

"lest I'll be forced to report your disruptive forking behaviour to the respective authorities with actual linguistic competence".
No, child. They'll have to deal with you. I'm citing the academists, and you , "the guy that knows a lot about linguist topics", you've never read that Brozović's work (as you say)??? It's like speaking about economy without knowing the works of J.M.Keynes, Adam Smith or Ricardo.
As I see, now, when you've run out of arguments, now you're pulling the argument of threat and defamation:
- "I'll be forced to report your disruptive forking behaviour to the respective authorities with actual linguistic competence"
- "...discussing with first-class nationalist troll such as yourself on some obscure talkpage no-one actually pays attention to..."
You are not allowed to behave like this. Don't try to win the discussion by defamating your opponent.
About your accusation of "disruptive forking". Wikipedias in French, Hungarian and Romanian also have different articles for Serbocroatian and for CSSD. So, when you've accused and insulted me, you've accused and insulted also all the authors that've contributed on those articles on those Wikipedias.
According to your attitude, all those users that worked (lost their private time on writing and looking for references, digging in the literature, and the latter is a lot of work) on those articles about CSSD (including me) are stupid, and you're the only one who's smart. Not to mention the academists that wrote about that. Who cares about them, you're the only smart guy. Who cares for those sources, it's important what you think. International linguist community is asking you for the opinion, and doesn't care what those academists write.
Calling someone a "first-class nationalist troll" s heavy accusation. On the West, the adjective "nationalist" has almost similar negative conotation as "fascist". If your opponent doesn't retreat after your response/attack, and on the contrary, if he/she replies, that's not a reason to call him as "troll". Have you ever read WP:ETIQ and WP:CIVIL?
I'm not disrupting the article Serbocroatian language. That was a political project, and it deserves its own article.
So the CSSD. That's not a project, that's one of diasystems in the Slavic world. And it deserves the article that exclusively deals with it.
So, why are you making the problem on the matter where no problem should appear at all? Kubura (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

CSSD

A message of Ivan Štambuk on my talkpage.
"Hi, please discuss it ]. And do watch for your tone, as it's very disdainful at first sight, emanating negative energy. Also, try citing from those books relevant parts, and not your amateurish conclusions. For example, you saying There you'll see that Croatian and Serbian had separate lines of development - I'd really like to know in what scenario have Serbian and Croatian managed to have "separate lines of development", but managed to share 99% of grammar (phonology exactly the same, trivial differences in morphology & syntax). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2009 (UTC)"

Dalibor Brozović, Povijest hrvatskoga književnog i standardnoga jezika, Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 2008., ISBN 978-953-0-60845-0. For this topic, read pages 75-80 (better read whole book, I cannot translate whole book here).
p. 78: "...a hrvatska razvojna vertikala toliko je različita od svih ostalih da čak i ne pristaje nijednoj od dviju slavenskih razvojnih skupina - u Hrvata je crkvenoslavenski kompleks... prestao biti općehrvatskim problemom pri koncu 15. st., dakle gotovo isto toliko ranije nego u istočnoj slavenskoj skupini koliko kasnije negoli u zapadnoj ..."
p. 79-80: "Tako se npr. često doživljava kao sama po sebi razumljiva činjenica da je standardna novoštokavština standardnim jezikom i Srba i Crnogoraca i BiH Muslimana i Hrvata zato što ti narodi govore dijalektima istoga dijasistema. No to uopće nije istina - uzrok je u tom što su ti narodi uzeli za dijalekatsku osnovicu standarda više-manje isti, tj. novoštokavski dijalekatski tip u okviru toga dijasistema, ali sam je taj izbor bio vršen u razna doba, pod različitim okolnostima i s različitim motivacijama. Jer izbor je mogao proći i drugačije, da koji od tih naroda uzme za dijalekatsku osnovicu jezičnoga standarda koji nenovoštokavski štokavski dijalekt, ili uopće neštokavski (u podnošku: i u Hrvata i u Srba i u Crnogoraca sredine na nenovoštokavskom području bile su u prosjeku urbanije ili bar razvijenije. Što se tiče Hrvata... mogli su u 18. st. prihvatiti u cjelini kajkavski pismeni jezik...), ili čak da materijalnom osnovicom i ne postane kakav hrvatskosrpski dijalekt, nego koji neorganski dijalekatsko-crkvenoslavenski amalgam. Samo za BiH Muslimane nije ni hipotetski bilo dr. mogućnosti."
So, there's separate line of development. Brozović was very profound in the analysis, so if you want more, read the book (and the article from Stjepan Babić's Hrvatski jučer i danas, Školske novine, Zagreb, 1995, ISBN 953-160-052-X, p. 246-252). I hope I've helped you. Kubura (talk) 03:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Kubura you're simply trolling and the paragraph of Brozović's book you're citing has absolutely nothing to do with this article. As I told you, if you want to comment, do it on the appropriate page in the section I opened for this matter, and not here. If you continue to keep restoring the article content, I will ask for administrative intervention, by someone who actually is familiar with basic linguistics. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

First, you've explicitly asked me for an answer on my talkpage.
Therefore, I gave you the answer. Please, don't attack me for the things I've done on your explicit request. Respect the efforts of others. I was writing that answer in 3 hours in the night, carefully picking the text that'd be the shortest and best answer to your question, to make it easier for you.
I could have put this message on my talkpage, where the original question was posed (by you), or on your talkpage, or here - because it deals with Central South Slavic diasystem. If you find that as problem, I'll transfer this section onto my talkpage, so the interested readers 'll be able to see the whole discussion.
Your question was:
"I'd really like to know in what scenario have Serbian and Croatian managed to have "separate lines of development..."
Now, when you've got the answer (that proved what I've written), now you're saying that I'm trolling. Instead of "Oh, I see" or "OK, thanks", you say that I'm troll and you threat me with administrators.
Please, remain WP:CIVIL and remember the rule WP:ETIQ.
"do it on the appropriate "]". Ivan, I'm staying with this topic. I have some scientific sources that are behind my attitudes. You are not the user that can choose what 'll be or not. Please, don't disrupt the works of others.
Why are you so destructively oriented towards this article? Why are you foaming? Language is a language, diasystem is a diasystem.
CSSD is a diasystem, that encompasses several South Slavic languages, including Croatian. Serbo-Croatian language was a part of linguistic project of unification of two languages: Croatian and Serbian. Still, in Croatia, "Serbo-Croatian" has never been official language (SC was official in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina). For a period of time (1974-1990), the official language wore "double" name, but it was under the name "Croatian or Serbian language". And it was not the same language as "Serbo-Croatian". E.g., Yugoslav military (JNA), never used "Croatian or Serbian", only "Serbocroatian". So, "Serbo-Croatian language" wasn't encompassing Croatian language.
Ivan, why are you making problems here at all? Noone objected anything to this article (precisely: no objections towards the content of the article).
It's you who came to this article to "rise the temperature", and it's not me who came to the article "Serbocroatian" to argue and to delete the otherusers' contributions (by deleting the content and replacing it with "redirect"). Please, be constructive. Kubura (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

First, you've explicitly asked me for an answer on my talkpage. - No I've asked to to answer on the Serbo-Croatian article respective talkpage section I opened that deals with this matter. I have no interest in wasting my time "discussing" with nationalist trolls on some godforsaken talkpages. Please keep the discussion there, answer the points I've outlined, and don't keep erasing the redirect, as next time you will be reported to the administrator's noticeboard. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ex13

Why are you restoring this crappy article? It's PoVish piece of garbage, ("The Serbo-Croatian language, by itself, was an artificially created language. The name was politically created and originally had no native speakers that called it that." - I mean, LoL), and it moreover lacks the mention of its most important critic: Ranko Matasović. This should be mentioned in the article Serbo-Croatian language, as I mentioned above. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Rude language

Ivan, you're not allowed to use this kind of expressions . " extreme nationalist PoV".
Do you know the meaning of the words you're using?
Don't try to win the discussion by throwing heavy accusations against your opponents.
This way you've also broken the rule "no peacock terms".
These authors are members of National Academy of Sciences. The diasystem they're writing about is their mother tongue (English authors cannot say that). They've proven their eminency through the decades and bunch of their scientific articles and books.
You have no scientific article published in any scientific magazine. You're just an linguist enthusiast. With no basic scientific attitude. Kubura (talk) 15:42, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Comparative table

Croatian Scientific Bibliography.
Search page in English (for letters "č" and "ć" use "c".
Dalibor Brozović .
Radoslav Katičić .
Ivan Štambuk - no results.
Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts.
Dalibor Brozović .
Radoslav Katičić .
Ivan Štambuk - no entry.
Therefore, Ivan Štambuk finds himself as top authority in the matter of linguistics, so the Wikipedian users have to obey to Štambuk's attitudes and personal views. Kubura (talk) 18:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Kubura, if you are incapable of understanding my prosaic writings, please say so and I will strive to simplify them for you alone.

The term Central South Slavic diasystem is an obscure coinage coined by Croatian nationalist linguists, used by them and them alone. Searching it on Google Books or Google Scholar yields no relevant results, other than abstracts of their own works, which would make this article fail AfD in a blink of an eye. It is not recognized in general Slavic dialectology. Furthermore, it has not only been disputed by other Croatian Slavists in the 1990s, but completely invalidated in Matasović's comparative grammar of Croatian from 2008 - the most important work in Croatian Studies in this decade, to which I directed you several times and which you deliberately ignore (also rather pathetically trying to diminish the importance of greatest living Croatian comparativist). Furthermore, this article cannot stay, at least not in this form, because it contains ridiculous nonsense such as: "The Serbo-Croatian language, by itself, was an artificially created language. The name was politically created and originally had no native speakers that called it that.", which is a result of your imagination (confer the results on mother-tongue of 2001 Croatian census - there are several thousand people still calling their mother tongue Serbo-Croatian, you know).

Once again, if you want to discuss the meaning and relevance of the term Serbo-Croatian in dialectological sense, how purposeful or useful it is, please do so at the Talk:Serbo_Croatian, as you've been told many times now. I can help you with that (I have the relevant literature to cite, both in Serbo-Croatian and in English). But at its current form, this is extremely PoV content fork that cannot stay. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)