Misplaced Pages

The hows-and-whys of this talk page

Because this is my own user talk page, I have certain rules and standards as to how I like to maintain it.

(1) Comments made by me are non-italicized

(2) Comments made by others are italicized

(3) If there is a Misplaced Pages issue I am currently involved in, I prefer to keep tabs on the situation by including information surrounding the issue as content on this page for future and present reference (as necessary). This may mean the inclusion of Misplaced Pages exchanges between others involved in the issue at hand. After the issue is resolved, I will archive the information.

(4) IT IS NOT THE RIGHT OF ANOTHER WIKIPEDIAN TO TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO REMOVE CONTENT FROM MY TALK PAGE (not to mention it's against Misplaced Pages policy). If you have a problem with something I have placed on my talk page regarding the issue I (or we) may be involved in, please assume good faith first and then discuss the matter with me before jumping to conclusions and making erroneous and/or bad faith assumptions.

(5) While I may remove content placed on this page that originates from exchanges elsewhere, I will never edit what someone what written in order to change the tone of what was written or to make someone look bad. Again, if you have an issue with what I have included here (or have not included), please assume good faith first and then discuss the matter with me before jumping to conclusions and making erroneous and/or bad faith assumptions.

(6) It is my intent to keep my talk page organized, orderly and in compliance with Misplaced Pages standards regarding user talk pages. This means that I reserve the right to include what I choose - so long as it complies with Misplaced Pages standards - and will, in the same vein, remove what I choose.

(7) Anything added to this talk page by another editor that is not in regard to an article being edited or is outside the guildelines for user talk pages will be seen as disruptive editing and the appropriate steps will be taken within Misplaced Pages guidelines - including issuing warnings as appropriate and in line with Misplaced Pages standards.

(8) Last, but not least, don't even think of vandalizing this page. Any vandalism will be reverted immediately and get you reported to the Vandalism Crew. Additionally, doing so will jeopardize your Misplaced Pages account and may get you banned from posting - so don't even try, okay?

Thanks for your understanding - may your Misplaced Pages edits be correct, well-referenced and relevant and may you have a great Misplaced Pages day!

Barnstar

		The Photographer's Barnstar
		For Concrete, Washington. - Omarcheeseboro (talk) 18:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow - a Photographer's Barnstar! (what's a "Photographer's Barnstar"? ;-) Just kidding - thanks, Omar! SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 18:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.. I checked out the page after seeing the film of the Tobias Wolff book This Boy's Life. I guess I drove right by there too, since I went from Seattle through the N Cascades last year (via Marblemount). I'm glad to see you like the style of my userpage too :) Anyway, great photos! --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 12:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

FYI (JoyDiamond 1)

- - Pulmonary embolism (PE) is a blockage of the main artery of the lung or one of its branches by a substance that has traveled from elsewhere in the body through the bloodstream (embolism). Usually this is due to embolism of a thrombus (blood clot) from the deep veins in the legs, a process termed venous thromboembolism

- - Arterial emboli are usually a complication of heart disease where blood clots form in the heart's chambers.'Bold text' An arterial embolism may be caused by one or more clots. The clots can get stuck in an artery and block blood flow. The blockage starves tissues of blood and oxygen, which can result in damage or tissue death (necrosis).

- - Arterial emboli often occur in the legs and feet. Some may occur in the brain, causing a stroke, or in the heart, causing a heart attack. A common source for an embolus is from areas of hardening (atherosclerosis) in the aorta and other large blood vessels.

- - My husband died from a pulmonary embolism shortly after Andrew died from an cardiac arterial embolism. There is a significant difference. Educate yourself. I live with it's consequences. JoyDiamond (talk) 01:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

As someone who was a NREMT-Paramedic (ACLS certified) for more than a decade, I'm certain I'm more acquainted with all of the above than you are from an academic *and* experiential level. How many people have you brought back from the brink of cardiac death with the administration of IV medications, manual CPR, mouth-to-mouth (no mask) resuscitation, and electro-shock, Ms. Diamond?

Nevertheless, the article is the issue, not whether either of us needs to be educated on cardiac, pulmonary, and vascular conditions. The Karel article has stated for months - maybe a year or more - that Mr. Howard succumbed due to a pulmonary aneurysm (not embolism as you so painstakingly and incorrectly noted above and on FD's talk page). Strangely, you've never had an issue with that statement until now. Suddenly, you decided to change it based on your statement, "pulmonary is LUNGS. Death certificate says heart failure". Apparently, regardless of what reasoning you are claiming now (and your masters in medical sociology not withstanding), you were not so clear yesterday on the fact that a pulmonary aneurysm is not about the "LUNGS", but is cardiac in nature. Today, you're a expert. Go figure.

But here's the crux of the matter: unless you have a citable reference that states unequivocably what Mr. Howard's cause of death was (and even Karel has been quoted in pre-lawsuit interviews that he died from AIDS), there's no reason to believe that what you claimed is more correct than what is now in the article. Let me try and make this clear - the issue here is the article and it's accuracy - NOT what you think you know, NOT what your husband died from, and NOT your ridiculous imaginings that I wrote what I did in order to bring pain to you or Karel Bouley. If you have a citable reference, bring it - but so far, the majority of your changes to this one and only Misplaced Pages article have been based on personal knowledge, have been non-encyclopedic and completely unreferenced. Unreferenced claims are to be removed - *that* is a Misplaced Pages standard.

Now, I'm not exactly sure what your point was in putting the above on my talk page (especially since you incorrectly posted info on "embolism" when the article previously stated "aneurysm"). However, unless you have something constructive and helpful to post, don't feel you are welcome there ever again. If you do post there again, I will consider it a form of online harassment and will take the appropriate, associated action in line with Misplaced Pages policy. SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 02:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

RE: Warning

Dear FeralDruid Thank you for your efforts. You are much appreciated. Again, I rarely edit unless someone points out an inaccuracy. This inevitably results in unpleasant discourse with Skag and as of today: threats. Please see my talk page. You will find more misinformation and fallacious comments, i.e. Karel has NEVER said Andrew died of AIDS. I am not going to bother commenting further, too many egregious inaccuracies. This has been an especially painful exchange. I have learned a lot from you and expect that will continue should I be so adventures as to dare to edit. TY again. JoyDiamond (talk) 04:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

1) "Threats" - I told you to keep away from my Talk page unless you can bring something constructive - and that if you did not, I would consider it harassment. Considering the fact that you have made several erroneous and outlandish claims about me and my motives in Misplaced Pages, I don't see this request as unreasonable in the least. 2) Click on the below link for an interview with Karel where he said - TWICE - that Andrew died from AIDS. In addition, the interviewer referred once to Andrew dying of AIDS, and Karel did not correct her. I don't make claims unless I know they can be verified, Joy. http://www.ontheroadwithjudy.com/karelkgobyjjones.htm SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 05:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

From Karel (Karel 1)

Greetings Kelly:

It's Karel here. I understand you've been having Wikki wars with Joy Diamond over my page. I keep correcting your biased comments and you keep changing them back. Whereas I'm a public figure, I have contacted Misplaced Pages and they'll be taking care of this for me from here on in.

But know this: Andrew did not die of AIDS and I never told anyone he did. If I was misquoted, so be it, but as the AUTOPSY will attest, he DID not DIE of AIDS. He did have complications worsened by AIDS medications that did cause his death, however. A blod clot, too much cholesterol caused by AIDS drugs. I was n ot fired the times you say I was. We were not fired and replaced by Phil Hendrie. You have it all wrong, actually. Some parts right, mostly wrong. I was never in the paparrazzi, ever, I was a studio and location photographer hired by specific magazines to gain specific shots. Never stalked an artist in my life. As for struggling stand up, I was paying the bills, so how struggling is that?

In any event, you seem to want to have everything seem negative about me, and that's fine, but it's not your right on this site. Start your own. So there will be corrections made to the page and then the page will be locked. So much of what you say is biased, from the Tony Snow piece (it was not removed or taken down, I rewrote it and reposted on my own volition without being asked, because I knew everyone would be missing the point). I did not "blame" the engineer unduly, he has responsibility for what is broadcast on the station when he's working the board and he let out obscenties. All these things, that you don't know because you weren't there. I was.

So again, we will be making corrections and then locking the page. You are more than welcome to start a site ihatekarel.com and print whatever distortions you like.

Have a great weekend.

Karel

(Preceding statement left unsigned by unregistered editor using IP Address 96.240.42.157, 18 September 2009, 19:13 PST)

My response to the above (Karel 1)

Snore. Apparently, some people feel they are more important to the global scheme of things than they really are. Trying to tell me in a veiled-sort-of-way that I should stop editing the Karel article because *Karel* says so...? Puhleeeeze.

Before I go on here, I would like to point out that the IP address (96.240.42.157)] connected with the above note from Karel further identifies that he *is* the one who made changes to his own article a few nights ago (after being told several times over the last year or more that he CANNOT do so because it is against Misplaced Pages policy). Incredibly, he even admits *he* is the one making the edits with the above statement, "I keep correcting your biased comments and you keep changing them back". Eeesh! Anyway, moving on...

First of all - I didn't create the Karel article, I've just edited it and kept it from being vandalized on several occasions. Secondly, there have been several editors working on this article over the last few years - I am just one of those several. Lastly, Karel *was* quoted in an online article in an interview *he gave* as saying twice in that interview that his deceased partner, Andrew Howard, died of AIDS. I find it hard to believe that Karel was "misquoted" - as he claims - TWICE. But for those who need to see proof, here is the link to the interview That Karel believes I am the sole creator and writer of his Misplaced Pages article only shows that he is ignorant of how Misplaced Pages works and unfortunately highlights his paranoia over his misguided belief that I am out to get him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that the only thing I have ever really done with this article is to improve upon grammar, syntax, and to remove POV statements. But the real problems with this article started when his personal friend, JoyDiamond, was revealed to be someone editing the article heavily to make it appear more like a fan page than an encylopedia article. Prior to that, Karel himself was caught editing the article and asked to stop (BTW - all of this can be verified on the discussion page of the article) In both instances, Misplaced Pages's policy on conflict of interest was violated. Strangely, this fact being brought to the attention of both JoyDiamond and Karel has not stopped them trying to make the article more complimentary to Karel and frequently attempting to insert POV statements. But beyond all of this - the biggest problem with both of their edits has been the lack of referenced material to back up what they've either changed or included. Those who know and understand Misplaced Pages policy recognize that this has to be first and foremost in the mind of a serious Misplaced Pages editor. IOW, the "say-so" about the validity of information on the part of the editor is not appropriate nor acceptible in the editing of an article in Misplaced Pages. Both Karel and JoyDiamond seem to want us to ignore this policy. I refuse to do so - and I imagine I'm not the only Karel article editor and/or Wikipedian who feels this way.

As far as Karel's threat that his article will be "locked" on HIS say-so...time will tell. It always does. SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 03:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE: The article *was* locked, but not because Karel demanded it (the article is about him, it is not owned by him - apparently, that fact hasn't occurred to him yet...?), but due to an editor requesting it. Currently, the article is locked for three days (beginning 09/21/09) SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 23:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Again (Karel 2)

Again, your hostile tone and dodging of the real issues prove my point. I don't care what you reference, I know the chronology of things, when and how it happened and from what. I have supplied that information, and proof to wikipedia, and they have agreed to lock the page upon my request.

I don't care who writes the thing, it just needs to be correct. Your revisions are not, are biased, and continue to provide an inaccurate and skewed picture. I'll take my lumps when necessary, but I won't allow something referenced so much to be so skewed.

I do appreciate your correcting any grammar and spelling errors, however.

Karel

Oh, and my studio is at home, so the IP address does not mean I am doing the editing. I have a production staff here often and they make changes. Although I like being referred to as "he."

(Preceding statement left unsigned by unregistered editor using IP Address 96.240.42.157, 18 September 2009, 22:26 PST)

My response to the above (Karel 2)

Looking at the above, Karel again proves that the edits made to the Misplaced Pages article about him are being orchestrated by him (even if they are not done directly by him) But, hey, I think it's clear that whether he's physically doing the edits or dictating them, it's still all him. Conflict of interest? Most definitely - and most definitely against Misplaced Pages policy. Another thing Mr. Bouley and Ms. Diamond have clearly done here is to suggest conflict of interest on my part - of which there is none whatsoever. The Misplaced Pages COI policy clearly states that, "Using COI allegations to harass an editor or to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is prohibited, and can result in a block or ban." Oh, well. Let us see where this whole silly debacle takes us and the article in question (I'm still waiting to see when Misplaced Pages is going to jump on his request to lock the Karel Bouley article from editing... <shrug>...waiting...hmmm.......still waiting................<now listening to crickets chirping>... ;-)

SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 05:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

From the Karel article talk page (in order to show the succession of events)

== Latest round of bickering ==

Look, this has got to stop. The endless bickering, the accusations of harassment between Kelly and Joy, the sarcasm... it does not help!

Karel, I have told you before that there is a conflict of interest in editing "your" article. There are situations in which the subject of an article can edit (WP:BLPEDIT and WP:AUTO#IFEXIST), but in general, concerns by the subject should be brought up on the talk page. And personally, if you're going to do so, I'd rather you use your registered Iamkarel account instead of an anonymous IP address, so the discussion is clearly identified as you.

Joy, I've spoken with you before over WP:POV and sourcing your edits. Please keep these prior discussions in mind. At times, it appears as though you're editing this article on Karel's behalf. When editing this article, you need to set aside your friendship in favor of cold, hard fact.

Kelly, I don't even know how to address you, because no matter what I say, you're going to argue. So frankly, I'm not even going to bother. I'm tired of it. Hell, even an attempt to stave off another round of bickering between you and Joy only resulted in more arguing. I just don't understand where this anger comes from, or why you feel the need to address other editors with sarcasm and insults. It's not productive. -FeralDruid (talk) 19:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, FD, that the arguing has to stop. I also agree that the COI edits have to stop. I further agree that Karel needs to stop dictating edits to the article through others. I agree that JoyDiamond is welcome to edit as long as the edits are not in lieu of Karel editing, that the edits are well referenced and she doesn't add stuff that would be found on a fan-page. But please, FD...don't assume bad faith when it comes to how I will respond to you and why I have made the edits and undo revisions in this article (or any Misplaced Pages article, for that matter). It's unfair.

It is my strong personal opinion that Karel is trying to clean out this article of what he sees as the "bad" or "uncomplimentary" stuff - no matter if it is true and referenced. Let me state once again, I am here in Misplaced Pages because I am interested in seeing Misplaced Pages becoming as reliable and accurate an online source as possible - this is clear from my bio statement on my Misplaced Pages page. Let me further state that if anything in the Karel article is wrong, then let someone bring proof through reliable and citable references that show those references to be wrong and let the correct information replace it - IF there is a reference. This is exactly why I axed the info about his claimed work as a photographer - if a reference can't be provided, then get rid of it altogether. Everything else - even the uncomplimentary stuff Karel wants removed - is referenced. If it's referenced, it should stay, correct?

Yes, I have been snide and sarcastic to JoyDiamond and Karel - who wouldn't be after being erroneously told time and again that your purpose in editing a particular article is due to your intent to cause personal harm and inflict pain? I'm sick of the false allegations and finger-pointing all over being banned from a chat room incident I haven't thought about in nearly four years. And yes - I state unequivocably that I would like for that to stop, too. But let me make one thing clear - I'm sick of it all, but I am NOT angry. Allow me to state for the last time - please stop insisting that I edit the Karel article because of something that happened four years ago - it's plainly NOT true. Okay - now that's out of my system and I hope it's out of Joy and Karel's as well.

I have been sarcastic with you, FD, because I have felt you've been pretty sarcastic with me and, frankly, because I feel you have taken their side against me (especially with your "warning" post) when I have done nothing to deserve that kind of treatment. Again, all I'm doing is editing for content, references, and NPOV. I also revert edits when I believe the article is being sanitized of what Karel or his fans see as uncomplimentary. Am I perfect when I do this? Certainly not. Do I make mistakes in editing? Of course I do. Look, I have an idea - Can we just start with a clean slate and *both of us* utilize the Assume Good Faith policy where each of us is concerned? I would certainly prefer it. What say you, FeralDruid? SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 20:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Succession of events re: Karel article (from the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard)

Charles Karel Bouley Edits to this article routinely result in arguments, most recently between the subject of the article, a personal friend of the subject, and another editor. Two years ago, I chastised the subject over PoV edits made via anonymous IP. I have similarly chastised the subject's friend JoyDiamond for PoV edits, educating her on WP:COI and providing links to Misplaced Pages policies. The third editor, Kelly A. Siebecke (aka SkagitRiverQueen) seems often to engage in edit wars with the aforementioned JoyDiamond, and the two of them routinely lob accusations of harassment and bias against one another, to a degree where editing this article has become disruptive.

A few days ago, the subject again returned to edit content. Again, accusations are being tossed about, with arguments spilling over to the article's talk page, Joy's talk page, Kelly's talk page, and my talk page (including bickering on my page between Joy and Kelly).I am at my wit's end in dealing with this, and am seeking some solution to this problem. -FeralDruid (talk) 18:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This most recent spate of bickering and edit wars has escalated the point where I've requested temporary full protection of the page. The aforementioned editors Kelly and Joy continue reverting one another's edits, and continue lobbing threats and accusations of bias against one another. -FeralDruid (talk) 15:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

A three-day lock has been applied to this page, but I would still like some intervention to deal with future edits to this article. I have grown so tired of the endless bickering, that I'm dropping it from my watch list. -FeralDruid (talk) 16:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

IMO, FeralDruid has not been looking objectively at what has actually been happening here. My hope is that whomever takes this on for dispute resolution will look at all sides of the issue. Most especially the fact that (after being caught and told to cease editing the page of which he is the subject) Karel has continued to make his own edits and/or has dictated edits through one of his fans and chat room moderators, JoyDiamond. In so doing, Karel has tried to sanitize the article from anything he sees as uncomplimentary - no matter if it is referenced fact. This is the crux of the matter for me. Additionally, I'm not exactly sure why FeralDruid has taken it upon himself to act as moderator or administrator of this article to begin with. Other being on the anti-vandalism crew, is FeralDruid in some sort of administrative position in Misplaced Pages that I am unaware of? SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 20:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

IMHO FeralDruid has been consistently fair and objective even when chastising me. He has been an invaluable source of Wiki education and assistance. I sincerely regret he will not be watching and continuing his much welcomed aid. It is a great loss but I cannot blame him in any way. My apologies for his distress. I know that whomever facilitates this dispute resolution will be equally as objective and fair. Wiki Standards need to be maintained and I look forward to participating in this resolution. The block should probably extended indefinitely until resolution process is completed. Thank you. JoyDiamond (talk) 01:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 2

MY title is DOCTOR Diamond not Ms. I earned it. The article misstated aneurysm, I never did. With your vast knowledge I am sure you know the difference. Furthermore, I am not going to pay ten dollars to see an article that is obviously inaccurate or you have misinterpreted.. You have no basis to state that You're more acquainted with all of the above than I am from an academic *and* experiential level. You have no idea. I truly respect what you have done as an EMT. It is quite wonderful and humbling to bring someone back from the brink of death using CPR etc. As a former CPR instructor, I had the opportunity to utilize those skills on more than one occasion. I won't extrapolate on my 40 years of experience in education, the medical field and the Hospice Ministry. Thank you so much for your kind expression of sympathy on the tragic death of my husband. "Since God chose you to be the holy people he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. Colossians 3:12 New Living Translation Bible. Egocentricity has no place here. May God Bless you with kindness and humility.

My comments to FeralDruid are not yours to appropriate here.

Insulting comments to my person deleted. JoyDiamond (talk) 14:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Warning Given

The following warning was placed on JoyDiamond's talk page regarding the blanking of content from other people's talk pages at 08:15, on 21 September 2009.

Please stop. If you continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Misplaced Pages, as you did to User talk:Kelly A. Siebecke, you will be blocked from editing. You have been informed previously to not remove content from a user's Talk Page. Doing so is considered vandalism. This incident has been reported to Misplaced Pages Administration.

SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 21:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 3

==your assistance please==

Since sometimes I have problems with citations I would appreciate your help in correcting Karel's "current life" It incorrectly states he is on one night at KXRA. See KXRA schedule: http://krxa540.com/daily-schedule. Karel is on KXRA EVERY Night, not one as edited by Skag.

It is also unnecessary to repeat "Fired" at every opportunity ,(at least FIVE times in article). It is redundant and a continuing attempt to minimize and put down Karel. It is entirely unnecessary to start this section with " Since his firing". He is a regular performer at the Rrazz room, having appeared three times since November, 2008 and is scheduled to appear again this November. Skag's POV needs to be examined as it is so rife with negativity in regards to comments about Karel. To whom do I address this? As we have discussed earlier, my own POV is as neutral & objective as humanly possible. I am not his starry-eyed fan nor am I his best friend, I simply strive for truth and fairness. I am very familiar with the true facts after a ten year intermittent association with Karel and Andrew (before his death)and disgusted with the ongoing presentation of fallacies by Skag and various vandals. In at least one instance, my perfectly good citation in this article was replaced by Andrew's obituary, totally irrelevant to the issue at hand and to again twist the facts in an unflattering manner. I will have to search again for said citation. I am sincere and not overburdened with a massive ego. I find your edits to be fair and objective and wish they were left as is. Your help is always greatly appreciated. JoyDiamond (talk) 12:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 4

Help!

Please consider

Dear KingTurtle. RE: The "Introduction to Charles Karel Bouley." He is famous for more than getting fired at KGO. For instance, before KGO, Karel Bouley who with partner Andrew Howard, broke ground as the first openly gay couple to host a radio talk show together. Their show, "Karel & Andrew," ran two years on top-rated Los Angeles station KFI-AM. "I'm sure there are a million gay (radio) hosts, but not many of them are open, and no one had ever appeared on the air as a gay couple," said Ron Rodrigues, editor in chief of Radio & Records magazine. http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117800645.html?categoryid=25&cs=1

Although it is mentioned later in the article. I feel this ground breaking achievement is far more appropriate in the Intro. There are other issues which you can see in my discussion with FeralDruid, whom I consider an excellent and fair-minded editor, who has been a big help to this inexperienced editor. As an over educated senior citizen, I thought I would be better at the detailing than I am.

I know you are very busy and I hope this does not overstep my boundaries. If so I apologize.

Thank you for your consideration.

JoyDiamond (talk) 13:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 5

Charles Karel Bouley

Request unclear – Jezhotwells (talk)

Charles Karel Bouley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

14:58, 21 September 2009 Kelly A. Siebecke (talk | contribs) (10,340 bytes) (the facts were there and JoyDiamond insists on replacing them, removing them, or exaggerating them - edit reverted)

This just an example of the misrepresentation of the type of continued harassment I have been receiving from Kelly Siebecke.

I replaced parts of articles that were erroneous, removed undue repetition, I exaggerated nothing.

I received a warning this morning that I had been previously warned about removing anything from Kelly's talk page. This is simply untrue. Her only warning was not to TALK (what are talk pages for ?)

A little history: I am a senior citizen who is an acquaintance of Karel Bouley. My first edits were to change things I considered unkind and then all heck ensued as I was told I was not using an objective point of view. My mistake. After discussion with Feral Druid and another editor, I apologized for my error and assured them I could be objective and neutral. They accepted that.I am not a wide-eyed fan or close friend. We have a very intermittent working relationship. However, I am privy to the truth of his schedule, personal facts, his history and the details of the death of his partner, whom I also knew. I also participate in his chat room.

In the chat room, I was warned that there was a room who ostensibly had a grudge against Karel and that may be in an issue. I didn't really take it seriously. As I mentioned I am an older woman with much experience in dealing with difficult people. So, I was not expecting any problems. FYI, I have a Master's degree in Medical Sociology, a Doctorate in divinity. In my B.A. studies I minored in Communication and problem resolution.

In my observation of Karel's article, I began to notice subtle and not so subtle changes in his article that were making it increasingly negative, positive aspects were deleted even though properly referenced. I made what I considered objective and neutral edits. My edits were reversed and replaced with even more negativity. AS I fumbled my way thru Wiki I discovered the history page and the person of Kelly Siebeck. I checked with the person who had warned me and found it was indeed Kelly. He described it as a vendetta after she had been banned from chat. She denies this is not the issue and angrily claims she is not angry! Please read her page and decide for yourself about this woman. The problem has escalated recently into personal attacks, removing positive facts and their references. She will tell you I am not good at references. She is right. Feral Druid has been very kind in helping me with those. I still have a lot to learn. BUT I will correct information that is an outright lie and/or demeaning to Karel. I have deleted several times her claim that one of his radio shows was once a week. It is a daily show and was properly reference until she deleted it. SO now I am reported for excessive deleting of outright misrepresentation and lies!

I do not want to argue with this woman claims her knowledge is superior to mine. That is just ludicrous. I have 14 years of education and 40 years of experience of which she had no knowledge when she claimed she was just WAY more informed than I was. I would just like her to cease and desist and preferably be blocked from Karel's page. Go back to the original article and compare if you can. I will have NO reason to edit when Karel's page is cleaned up and stays that way. Karel has requested that it be locked. There is no reason to repeat he was fired at the beginning of too many sentences. She does that repeatedly. Yes, he was fired, Twice. No reason to repeat it over and over. Much of his colorful history and various talents have been deleted. It is sad. I tried writing her a nice ministerial letter to no avail. I am tired. I edit ONE article and am repeatedly attacked dismissed and insulted. She is petty and without relent. AS the "great" philosopher Rodney King said "why can't everybody just be nice? ;-) I work with Karel. I know the good the bad and the ugly, and will record such as long it is truthful and factual.

I am sorry this dear woman a has a problem with Karel and myself. What started out as a relatively decent article has turned mean spirited and wildly inaccurate. Karel is controversial enough with someone adding to it. Please help. I am a nice lady with a little temper. My grandchildren think I am awesome. I am funny, I have something to contribute. I was Valedictorian at age 42. Work with me please. I thought if I could work with Karel I could work with anyone. I was wrong.

I am a hospice minister and Wiki was a fun thing. I am willing to take constructive criticism. I can be a woman of few words. Kelly is a very bright and experienced woman. I am sad the her overbearing egocentricity....just read her description of herself. Age will make anybody humble. I am there and she is not. I am at your mercy.

JoyDiamond (talk) 16:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me not wading through the dense meanderings above. This is Editor's Assistance requests. Do you have a request. If so please summarize it and post below. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I see that the article has been locked to prevent editing until the disputes on the talk page are resolved. that is where you need to go to seek consensus. This page WP:EAR is staffed by volunteer editors to point the way in various matters. This article is the subject of dispute and that can only be resolved by the contributing editors taking time and making the effort to achieve consensus. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

==Response==

Sorry I asked for help in the wrong place., Dense meanderings" was a bit harsh don't you think?

Not quite up to the Parting words of advice from Larry Sanger:Be open and warmly welcoming, not insular, Treat your fellow productive, well-meaning members of Misplaced Pages with respect and good will.

Again sorry to bother you . Just sincerely looking for help. I guess someone will contact me. ( Hi Kelly!)

JoyDiamond (talk) 10:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 6

Oh, and the article is locked. JoyDiamond (talk) 05:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The above is in reference to the Karel article being locked. This is something I was already aware of. SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 05:44, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 7

Funny, only the last line of what I had written is left above. The rest has been DELETED. I wrote a nice note wishing kelly peace and iterated that I had NEVER , EVER have had ANYthing dictated to me by Karel, EVER; especially any proper corrections I made of my own volition. I also mentioned that since Feral Druid had kindly instructed me on Wiki standards, all edits by me have been from a NPOV. She had mentioned I was a fan and moderator of his chat room. I am NOT a moderator in his chat room. As far as being a fan, that perspective was was eliminated from my edits as instructed by FeralDruid,in our first learning encounter. NEVER assume anything. I am not trying to harass anyone. I made a sincere and mature effort to wish Kelly Blessings and Good Faith. I repeat the same good wishes to her.

JoyDiamond (talk) 09:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

==Response==

There was no "nice note" left above, only a quote by FeralDruid from 19 September 2009, 19:30 (UTC) that was placed on the Karel article talk page and what was left in section "JoyDiamond 6". Because the quote from FeralDruid was already included above in the section "From the Karel article talk page (in order to show the succession of events)", I saw no need to repeat it. I also couldn't figure out why JoyDiamond thought it was necessary to place it where she did. Ergo, it was deleted.

SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 02:46, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 8

==Note of appreciation==

I want to thank Kelly Siebecke for pasting everything said by me, to me or about me on her talk page. How very flattering for her to take the time to search those out! I didn't realize I was so important to you! It is dismaying when you delete the especially nice things I say to you. I am truly trying to make peace, not war. Oh my goodness I sound like an old hippie! Come to think of it I am! There is no such thing as bad publicity. I want to thank you again for your assiduous attention. May God Bless you and keep you and give you Peace!

Sincerely

JoyDiamond (talk) 10:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Another warning given

The following warning was placed on JoyDiamond's talk page regarding disruptive edits and using talk pages for inappropriate discussions at 09:27, on 23 September 2009.

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
If you continue to use talk pages such as User talk:Kelly A. Siebecke for inappropriate discussions you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. What you are doing is not constructive nor is it acceptible behavior according to the standards of Misplaced Pages Etiquette.

SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 21:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

JoyDiamond 9

== Question for administrator ==

{{adminhelp}}

I desperately Need help with dispute resolution. Yes, I'm fairly inexperienced and have made mistakes. I only edit one page (Charles Karel Bouley) and yes, I am an associate of his. Another editor, Kelly A. Siebecke, has continually edited the article to make it as negative as possible and deleted anything positive. She posts in other forums doing the same thing. I work occasionally with Karel. He has made some GIANT mistakes. I have learned with great help from FeralDruid, to present the best IPOV possible, the good, the bad and the ugly, all of which I have personal knowledge. Yes, I am learning how to post citations now. The presentation of his negative activities do not need to more emphasized than they already are. How many times do you need to say fired in one article?

Every SINGLE thing I write to ANYONE it then posted on kelly's page edited by herself. I wrote a nice note try to make peace but that she deleted. I did make the mistake of deleting ONE personal egregious comment made by her.(RECEIVED WARNING) I am still learning. Please help in settling this petty war. Your IPOV is desperately needed. I then wrote what I thought was an amusing post concerning the multitude of my posts she has cut and pasted, edited and rearranged on her page, I was hoping to defuse the situation. (ANOTHER WARNING) Having been accused of meandering by another editor, I will stop here. Please help. I am learning as fast as I can, but cannot compete with the clever Kelly's vast experience and dubious intent. HELP!! Do you think I possibly need help from multiple administrators? Am I in the right place this time?

Thank you.

No doubt you will see THIS post on Kelly's page next.

With Great Sincerity

--JoyDiamond (talk) 00:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Greetings, JoyDiamond. I am sorry to hear of your stress. Administrators have no special authority in dispute resolution, so I have changed your request to help needed from editors, so as to give you the best chance of finding someone willing and able to assist you.

Regards,  Skomorokh  01:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess WP:DR is the best place for such things, Srinivas 04:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Hounding

Is there any particular reason you're WP:HOUNDING Joy, rather than putting forth an effort to stop the endless bickering? -FeralDruid (talk) 04:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)