Revision as of 21:18, 8 November 2009

Requests for enforcement

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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Jacurek block review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I blocked Jacurek (talk · contribs) and placed him under an editing restriction the other day under the WP:DIGWUREN discretionary sanctions clause. There was a discussion of it at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive574#Future Perfect at Sunrise's block of Jacurek, but that was closed on procedural grounds, firstly because it was on ANI rather than here on AE, and secondly because Jacurek hadn't himself filed an unblock request at that time. Now he has done so, but it has been sitting unanswered on his page for over a day, probably because admins (rightly, according to the arbcom rules) are reluctant to consider an unblock of an arbcom-related sanction without discussion. So, just to help move things along, I'll open this discussion here myself. Let me make it clear that I personally still stand by those sanctions, although some people might feel that subsequent more friendly developments between Jacurek and his opponent Varsovian might create grounds for a more lenient treatment. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

This block was obviously correct and should stand: Jacurek's conduct was of a kind that we simply cannot tolerate (and his claims of FPAS being somehow "involved" are so tenuous as to be actually laughable). At most, shortening the block by a week in acknowledgment of his more balanced behaviour since the incident is about as far as I think we can go here. Since the unblock request is fairly well phrased (apart from the bit casting aspersions at FPAS), that would be just about acceptable. Moreschi (talk) 17:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm a new administrator, and I'm not uninvolved, but I wanted to add my two cents. Blocks aren't intended to be punitive and Jacurek is not likely to be disruptive since (a) he and Varsovian have mended fences and (b) he will be subject to a six-month 1RR restriction. Jacurek's prior block history, which was cited as a factor in giving him this block, was largely a series of newbie mistakes that he has not repeated since his return. Citing his involvement with the EEML arbitration seems to be a case of sentencing Jacurek before he is found guilty. Finally, as noted, I think the six-month 1RR restriction will prevent any potential edit-warring in the future. Please consider these factors when evaluating whether to shorten Jacurek's block. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

That said, it does need to be clearly understood that conduct of that sort is absolutely beyond the pale. Cutting the block length down to 3 weeks including time served is fine, and is just reward for the fence-mending between the two, but anything beyond is too liberal and sends out the wrong message. Moreschi (talk) 19:04, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to Malik: about "likelihood" of being disruptive again, I do of course hope that the revert restriction will help some, but I must point out that the mere quantity of reverting isn't usually the whole story, and wasn't in this instance: quality of contributions, and quality of talk page behaviour, is another important part. And here, it is my opinion that Jacurek's record has been consistently poor, e.g. in this other exchange with the same opponent, or in this dispute. What we see here is aggressive, stereotyped accusations and appeals to "policy", without substantially engaging the opponent's arguments on the content level. As for the mending of relations between the two editors, my impression is that it is very much to the credit of Varsovian, but I can't quite help the feeling that Jacurek only adopted that stance opportunistically as a chance to get unblocked more easily . Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder to all that every time the punitive meme is uttered on wiki, a little kitty dies. So let's not hear it again! ;) Once someone has been blocked as many times as Jacurek, "I'll be better" just isn't good enough. Part of the reason this kind of behaviour is worth it for these guys is that they know, come block time, they can just promise to be good and someone will be there to send some little felines to kitty heaven. These guys do little but edit-war over nationalist issues and piss off other nationalists, so what's the loss supposed to be? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

All of Jacurek's blocks are more than a year old, as Malik points out, so the "has been blocked as many times as Jacurek" doesn't really fly here - he got blocked some when he was new, then behaved himself well for a year until a bunch of suspicious anon IPs showed up and started following him around. Then Varsovian showed up - and perhaps with a bit too much paranoia, Jacurek was skeptical of this user as well.

And Deacon, who are "these guys" you refer to? You should probably take a look at "these guys" contributions before making blanket false accusations like that.radek (talk) 23:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, invoking the EEML AC "fiasco" is way out of line. FP is not the ArbCom and it is not up to him/her how that case should be decided.radek (talk) 23:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a step up murdering kittens from murdering Transnistrian children. Sorry I don't find any winky winky humor in Deacon's statement. Instead of pontificating on generalities, I suggest investing the circumstances as to whether Jacurek was even the party in the wrong, which Loosemark covers quite well regarding Varsovian being the guilty party.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  23:51, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok in my opinion this block was a very bad one for a number of reasons. First what nobody still mentioned here is that user:Varsovian appeared on[REDACTED] in controversial circumstances. He exhibited knowledge of[REDACTED] proceeding far exceeding that of a new user which he claimed he was and at least 4 people suspected he was a sock: Jacurek, myself, admin Sandstein and admin Future Perfect himself. Secondly user:Varsovian engaged in edit warring on the London Parade article where he obsessively removed any reference to the lack of Polish participation in the parade. At one point he was blocked for 24 hours for such behavior. He also deleted Polish sources out of the article based on original research (from my conversation with Future Perfect he seems to be aware of this problem) and wrote rants against Polish sources written after 2001. Finally when he started to claim that he lives in Warsaw and that he wrote books about Warsaw (something that would give him far more credibility) Jacurek was most naturally very sceptical and asked him if knows of a main bus line in Warsaw. Future Perfect later concluded that was harassment by Jacurek however given the circumstances I disagree, Varsovian asked Jacurek similar questions about Warsaw on Jacurek's talk page. , In any case it is my opinion that if admin Future Perfect thought Jacurek's behavior was bad he could have first warn him about it, immediately nuking with a 1 month long block seems too drastic. Also I'd like to note that during the exchange user:Varsovian called Jacurek an idiot (with a trick, he said "my assistant says you are an idiot") something I brought to Future Perfect's attention 3 times and yet he has still to explain why isn't that worth a block or at least a warning. Finally I'd add that the user whois sock Varsovian was suspected to be left this message on wikiProject Poland: . I won't comment on it because I think it's pretty self explanatory. Loosmark (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Jacurek asked me to comment. This is the first time I've seen the particular issue. I've read the exchanges on the talk pages, which were a travesty of repeated i didn't hear that and the same assertions repeated time after time -- on all sides. I consider the two parties equally at fault in this aspect of things. The specific block seems to have been where Jacurek doubted Varsovian's claimed identity, and attempted to disprove it by an absurd exchange over local knowledge of Warsaw bus routes. This was not an attempt to out--which would properly be taken very seriously indeed, though it may have been seen as one--V had declared his identity as the author of one of the works involved. J. should not have started that exchange, but it does seem that V. had some role in continuing it. It was appropriate to block for this, but the block has served its purpose. if the quarreling resumes it can be reinstated, but some consideration should then be given to blocking both sides equally. DGG ( talk ) 01:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Just out of interest (and not that it is going to make any difference at all to Loosmark, he seems entirely uninterested in facts when it comes to me): I’ve been investigated as a sock and cleared. I’ve repeatedly asked Loosmark to say who he thinks I am a sock of but one could be forgiven for thinking that he prefers to make snide insinuations than actual formal accusations. Like the one which he ends the above post (strange how he didn’t bother giving or , two posts in which I give my opinion on Matthead’s comments, would that lack also be self-explanatory?) It is also interesting that Loosmark is still bringing up me not calling Jacurek an idiot. I have already apologised twice for my incivility and have already pointed out to Loosmark that I’ve done that .
I do feel that Loosmark should read WP:QUICKSOCK or at the very least WP:AGF: his constant accusations (including the particularly charming accusation that I am a racist ), insinuations and allegations , together with his unfortunate outright lies, are becoming very tiresome. In a single day I had to ask him seven times to moderate to his tone toward me . To give just one examples of his lies: at no time did I claim to have written books about Warsaw: I said that I have written a book about Warsaw (singular, not plural). I fail to see how writing a book about Warsaw gives one more credibility when discussing a parade which happened in a different country 60 years previously but there are many things which Loosmark claims that I don’t understand.
For example Loosmark claims that I “obsessively removed any reference to the lack of Polish participation in the parade”: I actually vastly expanded the section regarding the lack of Polish participation and more than doubled the number of sources. Unfortunately all 16 of the sources I brought were deleted by another editor. Loosmark claims that I “deleted Polish sources out of the article” but the reality is that there has only ever been one Polish source in the article: I put it there and he supported the deletion of it!
I’d like to end by pointing out all the times which Loosmark has called me a troll but frankly life is too short to find all the diffs. Varsovian (talk) 12:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok to answer Varsovian's points above:

1) I have not specifically said whois sock I think Varsovian is for the simple reason I am not sure. In fact I don't even know if he's a sock, all I am sure is he is not a new user, as he claimed he was, when he entered wikipedia.

2) The fact that Varsovian later appologied for calling Jacurek an idiot is irrelevant for the point I was making, had Jacurek not been nuked out of the blue he'd probably also have apologized, and that's exactly my point, the difference was that one user, Varsovian, was given the chance to apology, the other, Jacurek, was not. It doesn't feel right.

3) I totally reject the accusation that I have called Varsovian a racist, I have never done so and I demand an apology for this horrendous accusation.

4) Varsovian had indeed asked me to moderate my tone but it doesn't mean that he had a valid reason to do so. In fact he came to my talk and provoked me with a bogus accusation in his typical passive-aggressive style.

5) Varsovian writes above I fail to see how writing a book about Warsaw gives one more credibility when discussing a parade which happened in a different country 60 years previously. That's an interesting point, so the question becomes what for has then Varsovian mentioned a book he wrote about Warsaw in the middle of the the parade discussion!?

6) "I actually vastly expanded the section regarding the lack of Polish participation". Varsovian has to be kidding: . And yes he did work on the section regarding the lack of Polish participation but I have trouble calling that expansion, it was more like adding "its not true the Poles weren't invited" all the time: , , , , , ,
Anyway I don't really care about Varsovian I just hope the bad block of Jacurek is cancelled and Jacurek can return to edit[REDACTED] because I think he's a good editor. Loosmark (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC) ].

If I may reply briefly:

1) Could Loosmark possibly try to Assume good faith and not repeatedly state that I am lying when I say I am a new user?

2) Firstly, I did not call Jacurek an idiot. Secondly, Jacurek has been able to apologise on his talk page: he hasn’t done so.

3) You state that I am “anti” a particular race . If that were true, I would be a racist.

4) You repeatedly call me a troll and imply that I am a liar but this is just me being passive-aggressive? Do you even know what that phrase means?

5) “the question becomes what for has then Varsovian mentioned a book he wrote about Warsaw in the middle of the the parade discussion!?” Very simple and shown here : Jacurek asked “you know that what Varsovian means right?”, I replied “Yes I am aware of what Varsovian means, I have lived in the city for more than a decade and have written a book about it.” So the question becomes, why was I being questioned about myself in the middle of the the parade discussion!?

6) “I have trouble calling that expansion, it was more like adding "its not true the Poles weren't invited" all the time” I first added some 650 words and 16 sources. But those didn’t fit the PoV of two editors, so they were all removed. Funny how you overlooked that.

”Anyway I don't really care about Varsovian” So why is it that you talk about me so much and in so many different places?Varsovian (talk) 13:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

• I've been asked per e-mail to take a look at this case. Sorry, I won't take the time to do so, because I am quite put off by this entire Eastern European "who was more evil in World War II" nonsense and its associated cast of characters on Misplaced Pages. But (to be taken with a grain of salt, as I've not looked into this at all, and the exact reasons for the sanction or on what policy grounds it is contested are not very clear from the above), I generally assume that administrators issuing sanctions know what they are doing, and enjoy wide discretion in choosing what they believe to be the correct sanction; and nothing in the above discussion indicates a manifest and egregious error in judgment on the part of the sanctioning admin that would require overturning his sanction. Should editors with whom Jacurek was in conflict also need to be sanctioned, WP:AE remains available.  Sandstein  18:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

re: Sandstein, I hope you agree that we can't decide the faith of an editor based on your generalist assumption that administrators issuing sanctions know what they are doing. Admins are not infallible and they do make mistakes sometimes, no big deal but the mistakes do need to be corrected.
(I am also a bit puzzled by your who was more evil in World War II nonsense comment because 1) this case, even content-wise, was not about anything like that. 2) It's not like that needs to be discussed, Poland lost 6 millions citizens during the Second World War, which is over 16% of population. Just for comparison, UK lost 449.800 people or 0,94% and US 418,500 or 0,32%. In other words Poland lost in absolute figures 6 times more people than UK and USA combined. So I wouldn't say that who was more evil discussions are irrelevant, the Nazis were resposable for all the sh*t that happened and Polish sacrifise in WW2 cannot be trivialised as some editors all too often on[REDACTED] do.) Loosmark (talk) 20:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

• Ugh. This is a mess all the way around. The dispute wasn't great, but it was handled very poorly by Future perfect. And now we have others weighing in about dead kitties and Sandstein suggesting that admin actions are defacto correct. As many uninvolved editors and admins have noted (how many does it take?), this block is unwarranted and unhelpful. It should have been undone a while ago. The ongoing disruption is now the responsibility of Future Perfect and those who stand by his refusal to engage in common sense mediation and restraint instead of punitive club wielding. Let's put a stop to barbarianism on Misplaced Pages. It starts with those holding the clubs. Unblock A.S.A.P. so we can all move on to more useful and constructive efforts. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

What uninvolved editors do you think have said the block is unwarranted? FYI, Loosmark, Radek and Vecrumba are his tag-team buddies, are are certainly not uninvolved. I'd say the balance of other opinion regards the block as warranted. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

• Appeal declined. The past history of Jacurek belies his promises to reform. This block is preventative. It reduces the amount of nationalist edit warring possible. I am completely discounting the opinions stated here by the involved parties and usual partisans. Jehochman 13:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Stellarkid

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Stellarkid

User requesting enforcement:
Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 20:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Stellarkid (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text without consensus 27 Sep 06:51
2. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text without consensus 27 Sep 17:02
3. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text without consensus during RfC 2 Oct 03:27
4. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text without consensus during RFC 6 oct 06:18
5. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text without consensus during RFC 7 oct 00:07 (6 oct 06:18 typo)
6. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text during 2:nd editwar 15 Oct 16:30
7. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text during 2:nd editwar 15 Oct 20:20
8. Complaining over his own editwar at admin, showing intent to continue 15 oct 20:23
9. Open AE against Nableezy 27 oct, ended 29 oct 21:00
10. Tryig to round up Cptnono "== G Massacre == Just curious as to why you won't engage on the page with Nableezy out? Your opinion matters" 31 Oct 22:47
11. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text 1 Nov 04:32
12. Editwarring: Removal of sourced text 1 Nov 05:41

All edit above is about the lead dispute in article and about the single words 'Gaza Massacre'.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. Warning by Tedder (talk · contribs)
2. Warning by Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Requesting topicban

Additional comments by Mr Unsigned Anon (talk):
Stellarkid (talk) have as seen continued his editwarring after the topicban of nableezy - 21:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC) showing battlementallity whithout any sign of change.

• Response to Enigma

Your statement bather me as you sounds uninformed about me, and my case at AE. Have you read it at all? Have you read Jiujitsuguys ignorant ramblings and done some reserch about them? And about the 'helpfull' user Tyw7 who starting up the first AE case after I asked him for help against Jiujitsuguys ramblings?. If you going to adress any of Jiujitsugus accusations against me you better find out if there is any substanse behind them or just a morons ramblings, yes ban me now damnit. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 08:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Further response to Enigma

If you mean what you say and topicban atleast as many you threaten to do, perhaps even more of the povfilled editors on both sides, I guess that involve me. And I am positive to a solution like that. Let it be the night of the long blades. And I say sinserly, that would be the best to happen for[REDACTED] regarding IP-conflict related articles any administrator can do ever. Just be sure not to throw out any babies with the water. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 11:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Responce to Stellarkid

Who did the AE against Nableezy for you? It cant be yourself as you show you dont understand editdiffs. That fact that you dont understand but have such a loud mouth is baffeling, even for you. And suprisingly to even more extent for Jiujitsuguy. Are you to releted? Cant belive you try to defend yourself with that crap of text. I cant stand it. Is this a conspiracy of morons here? You try to induce a hemorrhage to my poor brain? Why no policy against that. I have to go and suggest that somewhere. Next time try to understand the editdiffs or atleast use your left mousbutton and klick on it and, wow, not a dupe. Just a typo in the time/date. Incredable. Administrators (those of you who have understanding (most I do hope)), interfere or Misplaced Pages is doomed. As I said before. Ban me to if its needed, just remove that gang of highly devoted idiots. Wikipedias survival is at stake. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Stellarkid

Statement by Stellarkid

This has been a hard one for me to address and I will add a bit more tomorrow on specifics, but here is my more general statement.

I have been engaging in discussion in regard to this edit since Archive 58 & Archive 59 (long enough for my words to have been archived!) and on the current talk page. In fact, this particular edit has been argued almost since the first week of the article, as one can see by reading the archive. For the record, the archive is now going on 60 pages and the discussion regarding the Gaza "massacre" has been significant. There is not now, nor do I believe there has been, consensus to put this in the lede of the article.

That is why I spent considerable time discussing the policy issues involved, but was met consistently with the argument that "there is no consensus to remove the edit". There were even a couple of "no consensus" removals made by Mr Unsigned Anon himself . One editor said the sheer number of words on the talk pages would have made us rich if we were paid by the word, lol -- and I am confident he was referring to me.

If it is true as WP:EW says: "An edit war occurs when individual contributors or groups of contributors repeatedly override each others' contributions, rather than try to resolve the disagreement by discussion," then I am innocent of the charge.

I did do a handful of reversions over the last month, but by no means did I try to override anyone's contributions "without attempting to resolve issues by discussion."

The problem is, just as there was no consensus to remove the material, as charged; neither was there a consensus to add it. This becomes a circular argument and inherently feeds an edit war. WP:CONSENSUS points out that Developing consensus requires special attention to neutrality and verifiability in an effort to reach a compromise that everyone can agree on. Those were exactly the concerns that were brought out in argument on the archives and talk pages.

I tried to stay with policy based reasons, as did all the editors who objected to its inclusion, starting with WP:CCC which says that "no consensus" is not an appropriate reason for reverting. Some editors, as I did, complained that the sources did not support the contention WP:V, that the edit was WP:OR, some offered WP:NPOV, that the edit was not neutral. Some claimed it was neutral because it was an "alternative name", the other said it was not a name but a non-neutral description. One side said it was WP:CENSOR, the other said it was OK in the body, but not in the lede thus not censorship. Some wanted to use Arab sources and other editor/translators on Wiki and others quoted WP:NONENG. Another policy-based argument that was made was WP:LEADCITE which says: "Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none."

WP:BURDEN says that the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. If there is no consensus for an edit, the edit is controversial, seen as POV and offensive by some editors, unsupported by others, I believe it should be removed until there is consensus to include it, rather than included until there is consensus to remove it.

I'm not trying to be a policy wonk here but I think WP has these guidelines and policies for just such a reason, and believe in this case they support me rather than the complainant. Stellarkid (talk) 07:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

A bit more specificity as promised:

I feel confident that this AE is in retaliation for the recent one I advanced against Nableezy, () coming as it does on the heels of it, and seeing how he himself participated in this "war" as I pointed out earlier. He canvassed an administrator to warn me just hours before filing this complaint --

• "think its protectiontime again. I would prefere a version with Stellarkids reverts undone"

Mr Anon himself demonstrates broad propensity to remove sourced materials that do not conform to his view. See for example these diffs with the accompanying edit summaries:

• " Cant understand why the lead is filled upp with pov stuff even if ballansing out eachother. Start a section or continue to use the reportin other sections. I put the stuff I cut in talk for use els)"
• removed israeli side exlanation that is undue weight in lead)
• Removing israels intention to not cooperate. Its intention is bring undue weight and can be presented futher down.)
• views, comments away.

But though there are some who might suggest it, I realize that this AE is not about him but about me.

Specifically related to the diffs in question- please note that my edit summaries all refer to policy, and are always accompanied with discussion on the talk page!

The first three diffs are to a compromise version that removes both Operation Cast Lead and "Gaza Massacre" from the lede. This was to answer the complaint that Operation Cast Lead was a name which showed a bias toward the Israeli POV.

Edit four was a compromise suggestion, retaining the word "massacre".

Edit five is a duplicate of edit four, an error by Mr Unsigned Anon.

Edit six and seven was an attempt to start afresh after the article had been locked. Again this was based on my belief that contentious material, particularly in the lede, should be removed until there is consensus to include it, rather than we should provide a consensus to remove it, post facto.

Edit eleven was also an attempt to start with a fresh slate by removing all the names until consensus was achieved to put them back in.

Edit twelve was a compromise with an editor on talk to put back at least the name with the most Google news hits, ie OCL.

Diff 8 Is ludicrous, since I ask for further article protection and guidance. And since the article had been locked the the offending passage in place, makes no sense whatsoever.

Diff 10 is equally ludicrous, as Cptnono's opinion does indeed count.

In the WP essay WP:Consensus not numbers it says In many cases, people have claimed to reach consensus, but really just got tired of considering the views of the minority report, so the result became the bullying by the majority. I see this as exactly the case in this article, through consistent reversions to the same edit presumably "against consensus," as well as through the use of various boards meant to intimidate opposing editors into leaving the article. I could not walk away, since "silence implies consent" and there is a larger principle involved that would not be served by walking away and agreeing to disagree. This allows "the opposition" to continue to claim that the edit is stable and consensus-based, when it is not. If the argument is advanced that there must be consensus to remove something, it is obvious that there is no consensus for the addition in the first place. Stellarkid (talk) 17:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Comments by Tedder

I'm in favor of the topic ban on Gaza War, Talk:Gaza War, and any other pages related to the subject. I've only become involved in mediating Gaza War since it came up on RFPP; I endorse a topic ban for this user to restore some civility to the article and talk page. Perhaps a time limit of a year should be put on the user, so they have an opportunity to be productive after then? tedder (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Cptnono

Of course he was trying to "round me up". I completely agree that Gaza massacre as it is used is incorrect. I'm trying to chill out from this page since it has gotten so out of hand, I need to cool down, and I thought Stellar's concise reasoning could handle the job just fine without me screwing it up. He didn't understand that WP:3RR included reversal of "actions of other editors, in whole or in part." It looks like he thought his reasoning was sufficient so the change was OK. It doesn't work that way. He juts got a warning from two admins about the same 3 reverts and I hope he takes it to heart. Being newer isn't an excuse but it should be taken into consideration. I also think a reminder of the motherly "2 wrongs don't make a right" is something would be nice. I think this AE is premature and Stellar will show that he is more than capable of following the rules and needs to go reread them. Punishing him to restore stability (which has never existed on the article unfortunately) is completely out of line. Asking him to not edit war over "massacre" should work but if you need justice (which isn't the point of this is it?) impose a 1rr. Cptnono (talk) 21:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Follow-up: The length of how long this has been going on should have no bearing on Stellar. He deserves a fair assessment without being lumped in with others. This recent wave (that is how it looks to me at least) involves editors who have not been involved with AE before or are newer to the article as well. Cptnono (talk) 07:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

Although I felt the decision concerning Nableezy above was uncomfortably one-sided, given that he was handed a stiff topic ban while Stellarkid, who had edit warred with equal enthusiasm since arriving at the page in question, got no sanction whatever, I had reluctantly decided to make no comment about it as I felt it best not to second guess the judgement of an uninvolved admin. At this point however, I feel something must be said.

I thought Stellarkid was extremely fortunate not to have also been topic banned in the previous case, given his sheer hypocrisy in bringing the case against Nableezy when he had been almost equally guilty of edit warring on the same article (examples ) but the fact that he has immediately resumed his edit war over the edit in question after just seeing another editor given a stiff penalty for doing so, demonstrates either an extraordinary lack of restraint or else a palpable contempt for this process. Either way, I think at this point Stellarkid must receive a sanction at least on par with that given to Nableezy (although as I understand it the length of Nableezy's ban is currently under review). This kind of behaviour is simply not acceptable. Gatoclass (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

This report has degenerated into a mess. Why aren't users abiding by the instruction to comment only in your own section? Please show some respect for the AE admins and stop treating this like a talk thread. Gatoclass (talk) 04:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Jiujitsuguy

I oppose any sanction against Stellarkid. He is an excellent editor who has contributed greatly to the integrity of the article in question and has remained civil throughout. This is a common tactic that Mr Unsigned Anon employs. He attempts to silence and censor those he disagrees with by filing complaints and having them blocked or topic banned. If anyone deserves to be sanctioned it's Mr Unsigned Anon for the following reasons:

He has reverted me twice here and here within a span of less than 24 hrs. The second revert is particularly distressing becuase I was engaged in a debate with another editor who asked me to self revert here and I was considering his request as evidenced by Then Mr Unsigned Anon comes along and reverts me before the other editor even has a chance to respond to my proposal. Mr Unsigned Anon is very savvy and sophisticated when it comes to Wiki rules and procedure. He will push the envelope just far enough without bursting it. While technically, he's not in violation of 3R in letter, he's certainly in violation of spirit.

Moreover, he has engaged in a disruptive and infantile course of conduct

I've compiled a list of Diffs for your review concerning Mr Unsigned Anon. A review of these Diffs is important and sheds light on the nature of Mr Unsigned Anon.

Here ] he is warned to stop engaging in disruptive reverts.

Here ] he makes inquiries about my race.

Here ] he accuses me of working for the Israeli government and also makes derogatory accusations based on alleged demographics.

Here ] he asks me about the weather in Brooklyn based on his belief that I live there.

Here ] he makes reference to my bank account on the Gaza discussion page.

Here ] he taunts me to engage him in an edit war.

None of these comments are relevant, all of them are infantile and some of them are downright offensive. A sanction should therefore be imposed on Mr Unsigned Anon in the form of a lengthy topic ban.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 03:23, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Mr Unsigned Anon has just reverted yet again here That would make three reverts in just over 24 hours. This is how he operates. Pushing the envelope just far enough. It is etremely frustrating to watch him take advantage of the rules to sanction another editor while he himself is an experienced edit warrior who will stop at nothing to censor those he disagrees with.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 03:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the strange and deprecatory comments made by Mr Unsigned Anon above here here and here concerning Enigmaman and Stellarkid speak for themselves. We’ve all gotten hot under the collar at times (the Middle East can do that to you) but these comments are beyond the pale. Clearly, if anyone deserves to be sanctioned in this mess, it's Mr Unsigned Anon--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Enigmaman

This has been going on for months, with basically no progress. One reports another, it's generally ignored, rinse and repeat. Mr Unsigned Anon, for example, has been taken to AN/I several times, but no administrators really want to get involved in this mess. Topic bans should be meted out, starting with Mr Unsigned Anon. Remove one, see if anything changes, and then progress from there. The trouble, as with all I/P disputes, is that the only people who care to edit the pages are people with a very distinct POV, on one side or another. Enigma 07:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Shuki

I had edited the article once or twice early with an apparent non-controversial edit but decided to stay out of the main controversial issue and not followed it. I was surprised by the severity of Nableezy's recent sentence but in hindsight can see it justified since the tolerance level of uninvolved admins is dropping as time goes on and Nableezy's problematic behaviour was evident on other articles in the I-P realm not just the 'Gaza War'. In stark contrast, StellarKid does not have a similar pervasive problem in the I-P realm at all, so requesting an I-P topic ban for an apparent edit war on one article is plainly exaggerated, an insincere request and simply unreasonable. FWIW, this article would/should have joined the low traffic articles long ago and editors moved on. If I were to hand something down here, it would be to protect the article as is (with all it's problems) and let the issue calm down if that is possible. I'm leaning with Jiujitsuguy and Enigmaman on this. --Shuki (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by 85.158.184.158

I've had nothing to do with this editor but checking one Talk-Page contribution by Stellarkid tells me not to expect very much. The fact he has Jiujitsuguy on his side will not do him any favours. 86.158.184.158 (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to 85.158.184.158 by Stellarkid

Here is 85.158.184.158's edit on the Gaza War talk page -- talk about non-productive edits. Stellarkid (talk) 23:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Malik Shabazz

As evidenced by her/his statement, Stellarkid has no understanding of what edit-warring is. As recently as yesterday, Stellarkid made 3 reverts in a little more than 1 hour. Now Stellarkid is trying to claim that edit-warring while arguing on an article's Talk page isn't edit-warring.

From the little I've seen of her/him, Stellarkid seems to treat Israel-related articles as a battleground. Stellarkid has created "controversies" based on an inability to read the sources carefully (compare this to this and finally this). Stellarkid has had difficulty distinguishing between a press release and a news article and understanding why a press release based on a blog post (!) isn't a RS.

I think a short break from editing articles in this area would give Stellarkid a necessary opportunity to read some of the key Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines.

Full disclosure: Before Stellarkid accuses me of retaliation, I might as well write that I left a message on nableezy's Talk page after he was topic-banned. My comments here have nothing to do with the fact that Stellarkid initiated the AE action against nableezy (which I didn't know until Stellarkid told me). — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

This is weird. You just got admin and that should make you rise to another level of judgement as well as not ignoring WP:AGF. You brought some examples from one other article not directly related to I-P conflict and you back up a topic ban? How can you not deny bringing more baggage here? Even if those were two problematic edits, that certainly does not contribute productively to the discussion here. Everyone, even you and I, has problematic edits every once in a while and you have not shown how this is characteristic of Stellarkid. --Shuki (talk) 07:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

A break from editing to read policy is the equivalent of being sent to the corner to think about what you have done (or whatever your mother preferred). I think Misplaced Pages can be above that even though editors do act like little kids sometimes :) Cptnono (talk) 07:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, Shuki, if you don't think J Street is related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, perhaps you don't know what J Street is. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 07:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Response by Stellarkid to Malik Shabazz

Just to respond a bit to your accusations. Of the three diffs that you put up just now, two of them are in the original complaint by Mr Unsigned Anon and I responded to them above. I did not appreciate that any removal of material put in by another user constitutes a revert. With respect to the third diff, there does seem to be a consensus that the Gaza War article is way too long, the material was irrelevant, and it was not in the correct section either. With regard to the two reverts in the lede, I believed I made a BOLD edit to the lede by removing all names, it was reverted. I went back and changed it in another way, based on the concerns (if not entirely) of the reverting editor. The edit was based on a rationale and compromise, and on my belief, expressed above, that when an edit in the lede is controversial, it requires consensus to add it, not remove it. If this is wrong thinking, please point me to the relevant policy.

Regarding the JStreet controversy, I added a controversy section because there is considerable controversy surrounding JStreet and just who it represents. In fact another editor had suggested a "criticism" section back in August, on the grounds that many of these organizations have "criticism sections" and there were one or two supporters of that suggestion. I was "BOLD" and added a "controversy section. You removed the "controversy" section I added as "unneeded" and I did not war it back in, since I am consistent in my belief that there must be consensus to add something, not remove something if it is seen as controversial. By removing it you demonstrated there was no consensus to add it. I then added some more articles to the talk page - relevant to the article in question and reflecting the controversy or criticism that exists in the Jewish community and elsewhere with regard to J Street. I still believe that the opinion of the ZOA under the leadership of Morton Klein is relevant to the article and believe your response inappropriate, less than civil, and actually could be said to have violated WP:BLP. If you had thought I didn't know the difference between blogs and press releases, a word to the wise might have been nice. (and in fact appropriate from an administrator, I would think) Stellarkid (talk) 04:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Stellarkid, your statement "I still believe that the opinion of the ZOA under the leadership of Morton Klein is relevant to the article" is deeply troubling. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the issue described (but actually grossly misrepresented) by ZOA regarding Fenton Communications "the largest public interest communications firm in the United States", Ben-Ami's former employer prior to J Street, accepting a contract from the Qatar Foundation has anything to do with Ben-Ami and hence J Street at all. ZOA even say so themselves. There are so many, many things wrong here that I'm utterly astonished that you "still believe" it's relevant to the article. It's this lack of understanding, this acting upon what you "believe", this inability to distinguish between good sources and blatant agit-prop/misrepresentation that gives me grave reservations about your ability to address I-P related issues in a way that is consistent with both policy and the discretionary standards. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

For the article's talk page, guys (I think).Cptnono (talk) 11:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

No, my comment is made within the context of this arbitration enforcement discussion. It is intended to illustrate a specific instance and provide empirical evidence here to support the notion that Stellarkid may not be able to address I-P related issues in a way that is consistent with both policy and the discretionary standards. He's well aware of my views on the talk page. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)...and for interest, I was intending not to comment at this AE until I saw his ""I still believe" statement. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I hear you. Understanding or interpretation of the sources doesn't cause someone to edit war, though. Did he edit war or not is the question isn't it?Cptnono (talk) 11:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

No or else this would just be at the edit warring noticeboard. The question is whether Stellarkid's actions bring him within scope of the arbitration enforcement process and if so what should be done. My example is intended to illustrate a troubling instance where there is, in my view, a conflict between what he "believes" and what wiki policy and the discretionary sanctions say. Has it damaged content ? No, not yet but beliefs are persistent things. Note that I haven't said whether I favour or oppose a topic ban because it's not my decision. I've already said (at Nableezys AE) that I think Stallarkid needs a mentor and needs to agreee to abide by the sanctions. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

So you support a topic ban in order to preempt disruptive editing you foresee Stellarkid making in the future? And you are using two articles to base this on? --Shuki (talk) 19:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Interested to know how you got that from me saying "I haven't said whether I favour or oppose a topic ban because it's not my decision." Sean.hoyland - talk 19:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

If you are interested in what I think I'll tell you. I think Stellarkid should be restricted to editing from the non-Israeli perspective for a set period like a month. That means every edit in the I-P area he makes during that period should be one that adds information from sources like human rights groups, Palestinian sources, Arab media, other sources that are critical of Israel too numerous to mention due to the inherent liberal bias of reality. If he can do that it will do him a world of good. Also, no sneakily looking at the NGO Monitor/StandWithUs/CAMERA sites in his bedroom for a month Sean.hoyland - talk 19:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

"other sources that are critical of Israel too numerous to mention due to the inherent liberal bias of reality." Good one! No bias there is there?  :) Stellarkid (talk) 02:24, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sean, I apologize for claiming you suggested a topic ban and I totally missed your last comment to Cptnono, though I still disagree with your claim. Interesting solution LOL, I think if we could all 'be friends' and truly collaborate, then a day with 'reverse editing' would be interesting. Unfortunately, I think there is a lack of respect with regard to many editors, but that's a discussion for another place. --Shuki (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Jgui

I am an uninvolved editor, having never edited the Gaza War article at the center of this controversy nor have I edited for or against Stellarkid or Nableezy, other than leaving comments related to the AE that Stellarkid filed against Nableezy. My interest in that AE and now this one is due to the fact that I have in my 1000 plus edits always held by the principal that WP gets stronger by the addition of relevant well-cited RS text. The Nableezy case has greatly disturbed me since I seem to be observing an editor being rewarded for removing relevant well-cited RS text, while an editor who researched, wrote, cited and attempts to keep that relevant well-cited RS text in the article gets severely punished. I realize that case is still under review, so I hope to see a different outcome in that case.

I looked at some of Stellarkid's edits not limited to those he made on the Gaza War article and found a disturbing pattern. The removal of RS cited text (without discussion on Talk pages) seems to be a pattern for Stellarkid. The cited text that he deletes is always text that disagrees with his apparent POV. A quick look through his edits brought up the following obvious examples; there are more if more are needed:

This edit where his edit summary claims "Refugees from 1948 War: It is not in there. Such inflammatory charges without a page number! Searched the book on Google and I read the chapter(s). Not there". And yet here is the online occurrence of this text in the reference he removed which clearly contains the sentence (search for "nine massacres"):

"During Hiram, IDF troops carried out at least nine massacres of Palestinian civilians and prisoners of war (at Eilaboun, Saliha, Safsaf, Jish, Hule, Majd al-Kurum, Bi'na, Deir al-Assad, and Arab al-Mawassa).(page 245, with citation 347)"

This is almost *identical* to the text he removed with the claim that it was not there:

"During Operation Hiram, at least nine massacres of Arabs were performed by IDF soldiers.".

It should be noted that Stellarkid never commented on this deletion in the article's Talk page - although he discussed other editor's changes there before and after making this change. The POV outcome of his edit - removing a statement that made the IDF look bad - is obvious.

This edit where he removes a whole cited chunk of text with the misleading edit history: "rmv'd plagiarism from Amazon author's site: www.amazon.com/Bible-Zionism-Traditions-Archaeology-Post-Colonialism/dp/1842777602" when in fact this was an exact quote from the deleted reference here, and clearly the editor who added it included the name of the book but was not sophisticated enough to properly cite it and put it in quotes. A serious NPOV editor would take the 15 seconds to fix it by properly citing it and putting it in quotes. A POV editor who felt they should abide by WP policy would at least make a note about the deletion and copy the text deleted to the article's Talk page. But Stellarkid never left a comment of any kind in this article's Talk page. Here again he chose instead to simply remove the cited material that make Israel look bad.

I am flabbergasted by the rewards Stellarkid has so far received for his repeated deletion of relevant RS cited text in the Gaza War article which is documented above as part of this AE. The fact that there are numerous instances of it, in multiple articles, makes his behavior worse. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 21:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to Jgui by Stellarkid

Thank you for having taken the time to weigh in. I am not so sure that you have evidence of a "disturbing pattern," but I do want to address the two edits that you have taken the time to investigate. Regarding the first, you are absolutely correct that I should not have removed that edit. I should have asked for a page citation instead. I can only plead that I was a relatively new user, and I did look in Google Books, and my own copy of the book and didn't see it. It seemed like an extreme comment to make without book & page number and I removed it. I see now that the page number has been inserted that it is indeed there, {footnote 347, citing Eschel& Etzion, as well as himself (1988)}. Had I been a more sophisticated editor I would have added a page # request citation, rather than to have removed it as I did.

The Bible & Zionism removal I stand by. This is an editorial review from Amazon quoted in its entirety with neither quotes nor attribution. I see now that reading WP:Plagiarism that I could have attempted to notify the editor, but I had no idea at that time how to find out who was responsible for which edit. I could have attributed it myself, but I was/am under the impression that editorials from Amazon, especially when taken wholesale, are not appropriate. I see that since at edit in August of this year, no Wiki editor has added his own summary of this book. Stellarkid (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Stellarkid, I am quite sure the disturbing pattern is there - you have shown that you do not respect the work of other editors who place relevant RS cited text into articles since you clearly think you have the right to delete their work without cause when it disagrees with your POV. The flagrant instance of your deletion of Nableezy's work and the two examples above are not the full extent of it.

Stellarkid, so you think you should be given a pass because you are a "new user"? Can you please relate your full experience editing WP, including any previous user account you may have now or have had in the past? Thank you, Jgui (talk) 03:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Jgui, no I do not think I should be given a pass because I am/was a "new user." I was taking out material I believed was unsupported. I realize now I could/should have asked for a page number instead. I reserve the right to know more now than I did then. I am not asking for any passes for any reason, just explaining the edits that you have presented as best I can. I hope to be judged fairly is all. Stellarkid (talk) 04:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Stellarkid, that's nice - I would have hoped that you could have used the same standard of fairness yourself. Now can you please answer my other question: can you please relate your full experience editing WP, including any previous user account you may have now or have had in the past? Thank you, Jgui (talk) 05:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I do try to be fair, though I may not always succeed. As for your other question, what exactly are you implying? On second thoughts, never mind. Let's focus on the basis of this complaint. I don't want to go through an endless inquisition just to satisfy someone's paranoia. It becomes an inquest in which innocence cannot be proven. Stellarkid (talk) 06:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Stellarkid, my "paranoia" aside, your failure to state that you are a new user without a history of other accounts, forces one to assume that you are not a new user. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Jgui, a quick look at your contributions (and talk page) makes it clear that you are "uninvolved" (as you stated) only inasmuch as the Gaza War article is concerned. You edit (updated: almost) entirely in the I-P area and are a member of Project Palestine. (this error based on a 'thank you for joining' template on the editor's talk page) I don't know if you are also a member of the I-P collaboration group or not. At any rate, you made clear your perspective on me and my edits, and it was obvious that you had come to your conclusions prior to asking the question. There is little/no point in making denials to someone who is not inclined to believe one. You would have taken my denial as false, and now my silence as "proof." Although expected, it says more about you than it does about me. I urge you to stick to the substance of this complaint. Stellarkid (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Stellarkid, it would be nice if you would check your facts before making statements - I do not edit "entirely" in the I-P area, and I am not a member of Project Palestine or any other groups here. I think it would also be nice if you would take your own advice about sticking to the substance of this complaint - and I hope you will stop trying to bait me. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Jgui, you must excuse me then, for I saw this "Thank you for joining" on your talk page. I see that, based on your next comment, you apparently did not join, though of course there is nothing wrong belonging to such a group as it is a proper enough group, just as Wiki Project Israel is. I erroneously jumped to conclusions when I saw the "Thank you for joining" template. And I should have said & meant to say "almost entirely," which would have been correct. I shall correct my post. Stellarkid (talk) 21:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Jgui, you are way out of line for making an unfounded accusation like that--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 04:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Jiujitsuiguy, it isn't unfounded when I have the references above to back it up. Please read what I wrote and read the links I provided. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 04:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks to me like you're implying that he has had other accounts in the past and your claim is baseless and without foundation.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 04:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem with Jgui's logic with the sourcing is that the RS and/or the method used to present the RS has been disputed in some cases. It is obvious Jgui and Stellar are looking at it differently so please don't assert that it is fact, Jgui. Cptnono (talk) 04:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Sceptic from Ashdod

I can't produce any weighted opinion on any of the charges against Stellarkid, I was not a party to that disputes raised above and so far had only some occasional interactions with his edits and his frame of mind. However, I wish to make the following statement - it is conceivable that concerns about this editor are justified; either way, I find it troubling that the request was filed by no other than Mr. Unsigned Anon, whose behavior itself is far from perfect, based on my recent experience with him. I find this fact as ironic as countries like Cuba, China and Saudi Arabia reprimand Israel via resolutions in UN Human Rights Council. I hope that final judgement on the case will be by someone really neutral and uninvolved. --Sceptic from Ashdod 09:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I think Sceptic is spot-on in his analogy. When weighing this claim against Stellar, one has to consider the source. It is clear that Mr Unsigned Anon is the one without clean hands, see He has engaged in an egregious pattern of disruptive conduct that includes uncivil behavior, personal attacks, socking and disruptive editing. Allowing him this platform is akin to allowing North Korea to criticize the European Union on its human rights record.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

lol  :) Stellarkid (talk) 20:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Tiamut regarding the result

First, I would like to apologize for commenting in the section devoted only to the comments of involved admins. AGK was right to remove that comment. However, my concerns regarding his impartiality and ability to effect fair decisions in this realm remain.

Why? First, AGK has used the lack of formal notification to Stellarkid of the ARBPIA sanctions as a rationale for refraining from imposing any sanctions on him. However, AGK did not issue a formal notification of the ARBPIA sanctions to Cptnono, which was the only action I asked be taken with regard to the complaint I filed against him on October 12th.

If formal notification is required for action to be taken in the future, why didn't AGK notify Cptnono? Will Cptnono not be sanctioned under the ARBPIA restrictions in the future because of the lack of notification? Further, why did AGK also say in Cptnono's case that he would have applied sanctions, but that doing so many days after the disruptive behaviour had taken place would be punitive? There seems to be some contradictory reasoning in effect here.

Please also note that AGK had commented in Cptnono's case as follows:

• This thread is much too lengthy. I hope not one of you expect the administrator who reviews the complaint to read this discussion in its entirety. AGK 00:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It was lengthy largely as a result of numerous postings by Cptnono. In the future, if someone wants to avoid getting sanctioned, should they simply fill the page with lengthy posts protesting their innocence, so that admins cite tl;dr and dismiss the case? Why did AGK decide to finally issue a result in that case on October 28th (13 days after his comment regarding its length), only one day after a case was opened against Nableezy, and only one day before he decide to issue Nableezy a 4-month topic ban?

In conclusion, I have a number of concerns about the way this case, Nableezy's and Cptnono's have been handled. I hope that AGK will take a good long hard look at the way he has handled all three cases. I think he has seriously messed up here and hope he takes concrete action to reverse the impression his decisions have given of an admin who is out of touch with what is actually going on in this realm. Tiamut 12:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Any who read this comment would be well-advised to undertake an impartial evaluation of the circumstances to which Tiamut refers, and to not allow themselves to form an opinion based on the rhetoric and opinions of an involved party. AGK 20:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Stellarkid

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I am powerless in this case to sanction Stellarkid under the discretionary sanctions remedy of Palestine-Israel articles, as he has not been formally notified of the final decision as the remedy requires. So I am first serving him with a notification.

  I consider Stellarkid to have edit warred. Had it been within my power, I would have banned him from this topic for two months; but the paperwork denies me the ability to do so. A standard block for edit warring is an option, but it would be a punitive and weak gesture at this stage—especially considering that it would at most be around a week in length.

  The whole "Operation Cast Lead/Gaza massacre" dispute has gone on for quite long enough. I'm indefinitely protecting Gaza War. It has now reached the point where the disruption caused over that one sentence (and over other disputed points) outweighs the benefits from permitting open editing of the remainder of the article. Mediation or another DR forum is in order, but you'll all have to want to resolve the dispute for that to work. AGK 01:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh goodness me that is nonsense. The reason for the warning is to ensure that users know about the ARBPIA sanctions prior to having any such sanctions imposed. Stellarkid just initiated the previous case against Nableezy under said sanctions - he self-evidently was aware of them. I think this decision needs review. Gatoclass (talk) 04:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

AGK, indeed this seems a strange statement, since it looks to me like he was indeed notified here at the same time the action was filed against him here, and considering that Stellarkid has been the most active participant in this action that was filed against him and that he started contributing within 12 hours of when it was first opened here. Can you explain your statement better? Thank you, Jgui (talk) 08:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

{Comment by Tiamut removed --12:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC).}

I'm uninvolved, but since I've had previous experience of enforcing arbitration restrictions as an admin I thought I'd comment. The purpose of arbitration restriction notifications is to ensure that an editor can't claim he was unaware of them if he commits further infractions. Stellarkid clearly demonstrated that he was aware of the ARBPIA restrictions on 27 October 2009, when he filed an enforcement request against Nableezy in which he cited ARBPIA as the sanction or remedy that Nableezy had violated. The purpose of notification - i.e. awareness of the restrictions - was satisfied at this point, and there would have been no point in templating an editor who had demonstrated that awareness. (That may be why nobody appears to have done it.) Stellarkid's actions before 27 October probably cannot be caught under ARBPIA due to the lack of notification, but those after would certainly have been taken by him in the full knowledge of the ARBPIA restrictions. The question then becomes one of whether his actions after 27 October merit the imposition of arbitration sanctions. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

While ChrisO has as usual made the point very well, I would only add that it is not quite correct to say that Stellarkid only became aware of the AE sanctions on the 27th, because in fact he participated in the Cptnono case as early as October 12. They could hardly have escaped his attention at that time. Gatoclass (talk) 11:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Arbitration remedies are typically not as open to IAR as other authoritative texts. If there is a consensus that, in this case, a notification is not necessary, then I would happily proceed and sanction. But I think my hesitancy is understandable: defying a clear provision of an arbitration remedy is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect the committee would respond to with a desysopping. AGK 11:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK the notification clause has never been interpreted that strictly, indeed looking at the ARBPIA notification log it seems a number of users have previously been sanctioned without formal notification. I am generally strongly in favour of process myself, so certainly I understand your caution, but I think we are also entitled to apply a little common sense, and when someone has previously opened an ARBPIA case of his own there simply cannot be any doubt that he already knew about the existence of the sanctions. Gatoclass (talk) 12:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I broadly agree with your position. Stellarkid has voluntarily committed to a 1RR for two months (the length of time I was contemplating sanctioning him for), which might put a new angle on things. I am, however, hesitant to give leniency to one user where I have made it clear I am being quite unsympathetic to the majority of contributors to this article. AGK 12:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I've removed Tiamut's comment, first because this section is for uninvolved administrators only, and second, because I am growing weary of his piping up with "omg AGK is involved in this dispute he's never contributed to and hasn't ever touched until a week ago" at every turn. He does make a good point about there being a "huge banner at the top of Talk:Gaza War," though. AGK 12:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand your hesitancy, but I don't think that IAR would be an issue here. The intention of notification is to ensure that editors should be aware of arbitration restrictions before they are sanctioned. That requirement was clearly satisfied by Stellarkid's own AE request on the 27th, since he explicitly referred to those restrictions of his own volition. It may well be that he was aware of the restrictions before then, as Gatoclass says, but there's absolutely no doubt that he knew of them by the 27th. I very much doubt that the Arbcom meant for sanctions to be only applicable if a notification has been given, even though it's undisputed that the editor was fully aware of the restrictions. In a sense, Stellarkid is falling between the cracks of a technicality. I would suggest sanctioning as you propose, then kicking it over to WP:RFAR#Requests for clarification to request that the Arbcom endorse it. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll comment here as somebody who has never taken part in Palestine-Israel Arb enforcement, but has been highly active in the corresponding work on Balkans Arb enforcement. My suggestion is: there is a reason why WP:ARBMAC has been overall a success story, with a record of sanctions that have very noticeably reduced the general level of disruption in the field, while WP:ARBPIA sometimes looks like such a failure, with much fewer actual sanctions but a much higher level of secondary disruption caused by the debates about sanctions themselves. The reason is that with WP:ARBMAC we never bothered with legalistic bureaucracy like this. I can assure you that in an ARBMAC case, sanctions in a case like this would have been put in force as a matter of course, with no long debate and no complaints afterwards. Nobody at ARBMAC has ever challenged such a decision, and no administrator ever got in trouble over it, certainly not from Arbcom. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Interesting and helpful; and I agree with Gatoclass and ChrisO too. On a more general point, WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. Rd232 13:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Based on the points above, I have to agree that there is more than sufficient clear evidence that Stellarkid was aware of the restrictions before his actions, and can thus be sanctioned on that basis. However, if there is no one willing to impose sanctions independent of ArbCom, we could request a clarification of ArbCom as to whether the ruling applies in this case. John Carter (talk) 18:35, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Mr Unsigned Anon

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Mr Unsigned Anon

User requesting enforcement:
Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Mr Unsigned Anon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. Here he acknowledges that his conduct could get him banned

1. Here, he calls me a racist.

1. Here, he uses gratuitous vulgarity.

1. Here again he uses gratuitous vulgarity.

1. Here, he refers to me as a "retard" and a "moron" and also implies that he has other Wiki accounts.

1. Here, he rambles on and makes some strange reference to “night of the long blades”

1. Here, he calls me "ignorant" and a "moron"

1. Here, he makes inquiries about my race

1. Here, he accuses me of working for the Israeli government and also makes derogatory accusations based on alleged demographics

1. Here, he asks me about the weather in Brooklyn based on his belief that I live there.

1. Here, he makes reference to my bank account on the Gaza discussion page

1. Here, he taunts me to engage him in an edit war

1. revert of sourced material

1. revert of sourced material

1. revert

1. revert of sourced material

1. removal of sourced edits

1. removal of sourced edits

1. removal of sourced edits

1. removal of sourced edits. Preceding four reverts were effectuated within a span of ten minutes.

1. His explanation for revert. "Cant understand why the lead is filled upp with pov stuff even if ballansing out eachother. Start a section or continue to use the reportin other sections. I put the stuff I cut in talk for use els (sic)"

1. His explanation for revert. "removed israeli side exlanation that is undue weight in lead."

1. His explanation for revert. "Removing israels intention to not cooperate. Its intention is bring undue weight and can be presented futher down."

1. revert of sourced material

1. revert of sourced material. Preceeding 2 reverts effectuated within 20 minutes of each other.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. Warning by Tyw7 (talk · contribs)

1. Warning by Looie496 (talk · contribs)

1. Warning by Looie496 (talk · contribs)

1. Warning by Basket of Puppies (talk · contribs)

1. Warning by enigmaman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Permanent block, topic ban. Has contributed no substantive edits of his own except for extensive reverting. Engages in uncivil behavior and admits to socking.

Additional comments by Jiujitsuguy (talk):
I am requesting a lengthy topic ban or block. Mr Unsigned Anon has engaged in uncivil, discourteous conduct with some racial overtones. In addition, he has engaged in a pattern of disruptive conduct and relentless reverts of sourced material. This despite being warned that his disruptive conduct could get him blocked.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

This is the latest gem that Mr Unsigned Anon just recently left on my Talk page That comment resulted in a 24 hour block issued by BozMo (talk | contribs)here Mr Unsigned Anon seemed proud of his actions calling it "fun" here and taunted the issuing Admin to issue him a lengthier block here --Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I am also inclined to believe that he has multiple accounts based on statements that he made here .--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Mr Unsigned Anon Notified

Discussion concerning Mr Unsigned Anon

There is not an allegation anymore. He admitted to losing his last password and starting a new account. It sounds like he expects a block and he is simply screwing around/being really inappropriate lately. This should be a pretty easy one to close out and I don't think it will hurt his feelings.Cptnono (talk) 23:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Mr Unsigned Anon

Historical Revisionism and Islamic Anti-Semitism at Misplaced Pages

Well, thats it fellow editors. Before I get banned I leve this litle thing, by our user Jiujitsuguy (Jiujitsuguy). It might explain his behavour. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 01:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

I have found Mr Unsigned Anon's contributions to be largely unhelpful and difficult to follow (the latter because of a language issue perhaps?) He is also too quick to revert and often makes provocative comments that do nothing to encourage collaboration. I would support a ban from the Gaza War article for him.

I also think that banning Jiujistu Guy and Stellarkid from the Gaza War article (for revert-warring and editing without regard for NPOV) would be a good step in the right direction as well. Perhaps then, other less trigger happy and aggressive editors could get some real work done on the article. Tiamut 12:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I think Tiamut has it exactly right - except that Stellarkid's editing without regard for NPOV (deleting relevant RS cited text) extends to the whole I-P topic so his ban should apply to that whole topic; I haven't looked at any of JiujitsuGuy's edits so I can't comment on his at this time. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 15:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Fun is good, very bad spelling is very bad, and "Mr Unsigned Anon" is a great user name. MUA, if you are permabanned can I have it, I liek it. Meowy 17:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Stellarkid

I was going to stay out of this one since Mr Unsigned Anon has put out an AE on me, above. But with all the discussion going on about me, I feel I have to respond to this one despite any perceived COI. In the little more than a month since Mr UA has come on the scene, editing about 2 articles, he has been responsible for taking a number of other editors to various wiki forums for discipline, and to second Tiamut above, his contributions are "largely unhelpful" "difficult to follow'" and he "often makes provocative comments." Add to this a tendency to use slash and burn tactics and blatantly edit from his particular POV, his presence in the area has done nothing to encourage a collaborative atmosphere. Totally disagree with Tiamut in relation to her comments about Juijitsuguy and myself. We neither of us may be perfect but we try not to edit-war or to edit without regard to NPOV. Tiamut shares a POV with Mr UA, and I with Juijitsuguy but the answer to better editing is not destroying the competition but using the competition to build better and more neutral and informative articles. None of us is perfect, but Juijitsuguy (and I like to think myself) is different, in that he is working from good faith effort. Mr Anon, on the other hand, I am convinced, based on his "provocative" comments, disruptive editing in the month+ he has been here, is not working from good faith but deliberately trying to disrupt the project Stellarkid (talk) 22:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Mr Unsigned Anon

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Action appears redundant with this user's block, but hold in the meantime.--Tznkai (talk) 05:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The block is only one week in length. Sanctions are placed after considering a much longer time frame. Discussion should, on that basis, continue as normal. AGK 01:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Unible

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Unible

User requesting enforcement:
Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Unible (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. First revert
2. Second revert , of this edit , violation of 1RR

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. Warning by MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Perhaps a block but this should be ultimately left to the discretion of the administrator.

Additional comments by Marshal Bagramyan (talk):
It should be noted that user Unible engaged in a lengthy revert war on the Igdir page, often hiding behind his university IPs. These included the IP addresses, 118.138.198.109 and 118.138.198.88. A sockpuppet investigation initiated by editor Gazifikator confirmed that Unible used his university IPs to outright circumvent reverting restrictions on this and other articles. With these IPs, he began a systematic campaign, tantamount to vandalism, to remove the Armenian names from a large number of articles. However, it was only through a disruptive, drawn out revert war on the Igdir article that he was finally convinced to voice his grievances on the talk page. But even after my final warning on his talk page, he has chosen to violate the ArbCom 2 restrictions.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Unible

Statement by Unible

It is apparent how hypocritical Gazifikator, MarshallBagramyan, Sardur gets when you do something they simply do not agree. Yes, thats right Meowy, I only changed Yerevan (and it complies with WP:NC) just because show them that this type of reasoning does not work. None of them will agree to keep other (especially rival) spellings on the lead of yerevan or any other armenian city even if does comply with WP:NC. But all of them keep objecting when I remove armenian spellings from turkish citie's lead. Now, WP:NC should be applicable to both, isn't it? So either we go with yerevan's standard and add spellings to etymology, history section, or we follow WP:NC. You decide. Unible 07:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC) (Answer to Sardur) You are right, I should have said "None of them will agree except Sardur who has not clarified his position yet...". In Yerevan's case it was MarshallBagramyan and Gazifikator , who also took part in edit warring of turkish cities, alongside you. Also you made your opinion clear at Igdir talk page. So I don't think it would be reasonable for you to agree with MarshallBagramyan's reverts in Yerevan page. WP:NC, remember?Unible 14:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Marshal Bagramyan hasn't made it clear that Unible's edits on the Yerevan page were done simply as revenge edits after edits Unible made to the Igdir page were reverted. In that sense they are bad faith edits. However, as a side issue, I wish there was a set of rules about what is suitable as alternative place-names, and what they should not be used for, and some guidance about the validity of having a list with exactly the same place-name spelt in several different "rival" alphabets. It would save endless arguments and revert wars. Meowy 03:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Diff on the above-mentioned revenge, though I warned him several times on WP:POINT (last warning). Sardur (talk) 06:24, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Reaction on the statement by Unible: I didn't modify the article on Yerevan after his first edit there, and I didn't say a word on my opinion about it (though I have one). Unible's statement is thus wrong as far as I'm concerned. But this and his statement itself are pointless here. Sardur (talk) 14:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I also should point out that Marshal Bagramyan has not actually given an explanation of how Unible's edits violate AA2. The fact that they were "revenge edits" might suffice. However, I realise this makes little difference, since administrators adore AA2 because it gives them the chance to (metaphorically) get their dicks out and show how big they are (by blocking or banning people). A proper reason to apply AA2 is not normally needed, all that is needed is an excuse to act. Meowy 20:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a little less graphic an analogy will do, Meowy. My actual reasoning was his violation of 1RR but, like you said, his revenge edits and his abuse of IP addresses are equally, if not more, problematic.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:46, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

But why inserting Turkish name into the article about Yerevan is disruption? The city was a part of the Ottoman empire at certain periods in history, and the article confirms this fact. How come that inserting Armenian name into Iğdır is not disruption, while inserting historically justified Turkish name into Yerevan is? Grandmaster 07:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall Grandmaster ever bothering about a "disruption" requirement in his own countless complaints brought under AA2? It is not in his latest accusation against Gazifikator and MarshallBagramyan on AGK's talk page talk page. Violation of 1RR seems good enough for Grandmaster when he is making AA2 complaints, but not good enough when he is opposing an AA2 complaint! Meowy 16:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

But has Unible been placed on editing restriction, which included 1RR limitation? I do not see any diffs to such a decision by administrators. If a user is not formally placed on 1RR, he is under regular 3RR. Grandmaster 17:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Unible

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Request concerning Superfopp

User requesting enforcement

BigDunc 18:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Superfopp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Sanction or remedy that has been violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy

Revert #1 Revert #2 Revert #3

Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue

3 reverts in less than 24 hours, which is a violation of 1RR. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Unsure

Additional comments

The IP for the record is me, I had logged out before I made the edit. And the user has previously been warned about 1RR on Troubles related articles here. BigDunc 18:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Discussion regarding this request

I reverted ONIH because he gave no good reason. He simply called it "hideous" and reverted the lot without any discussion or attempt at compromise. The IP's explanation was even simpler ... "have to agree" ... and reverted the lot again.

I then tried a compromise with these edits, which you've laughably stamped as another revert! Anyone with a pair of working eyes can see that this clearly aint the same as this. ~Asarlaí 23:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

So you admit you reverted twice in breach of 1RR because you didn't like the edit summaries. BigDunc 08:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Only noticed now that in fact a 3rd revert was added to this report clear case of breach of the sanctions are any Admins going to make a decision on this matter. BigDunc 08:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Could you clarify where you provided an explanation of your revert? That may not be explicit in the restriction, but it is relevant. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• Superfopp, reverting may refer to any action that reverses (in part, or full) the actions of other editors. The three diffs listed for this request constitute reverts for the purposes of the restriction in force. Do you agree to refrain from reverting and fully comply with the restriction? Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Having been previously been warned about 1RR on Troubles related articles here on their own talk page and to revert regardless constitute reverts for the purposes of the restriction in force. Their actions clearly indicate that they will not refrain from reverting and fully comply with the restriction? Ncmvocalist, are you suggesting that if we all ignore the restriction, we can give an indication later not to do it again and that is ok? --Domer48_'fenian' 09:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

My reading of Superfopp's comment at this discussion suggests there is a misunderstanding of the very meaning of revert, and the restriction for that matter. Superfopp has not been blocked previously, so an assurance that he/she will not revert further might be considered by the admin looking over this - and I already noted that there was a breach. Block or no block, the misunderstanding (if any) needs to be clarified by someone. BigDunc's block log on the other hand indicates he has been blocked for 1RR vios previously, with the most recent lifted due to uncertainty on how it applies - by now, the importance of discussing reverts should be clear to him. By reverting once, he followed the letter of the restriction - but did he comply with the spirit of the restriction and discuss his revert? Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

On BigDunc block it was the Admin who got it wrong, not Dunc! Now there is no misunderstanding of the very meaning of revert. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. Now they were made aware of it on their talk page, and still went on reverting. Stop making excuses. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

No where does my comment say that either the admin or BigDunc was wrong - it says that BigDunc has a block in his block log, there was an uncertainty on how it applies, and regardless, BigDunc should understand the importance of discussing reverts. You have provided no evidence to suggest that Superfopp truly understands the meaning of revert. Morever, you have failed to provide a diff where BigDunc discussed his revert after making it. You are involved in this, and you yourself are going to end up blocked if you continue to making inflammatory comments and assumptions of bad faith, especially against someone uninvolved - I am not "making excuses". Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm involved in what? Your the one offering "suggestions" as to Superfopp's understanding of the very meaning of revert not me! Now lets let an Admin deal with it shall we. Superfopp was made aware of the restriction on their talk page, and violated the restriction regardless! --Domer48_'fenian' 10:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Just my 2c to put it on the record. 1RR is there for a reason, and once an editor has been made aware of the rule, there is absolutely no reason for that editor to continue to try to force the issue through continued editing. The correct action is to take it to Talk. Superfopp has been around for a while, so it's not acceptable to claim he misunderstood what a revert is, or where to look for policy. The 1RR rule should be implemented fairly across all editors, regardless of background or political stance.

I suggest that the best way forward is to return the article to the 1-revert stage, and take the issue to Talk. I would also like to see the 1RR rule to include "no revert of a revert" policy also. A punitive block is unnecessary at this stage as all editors are now engaged in discussion. --HighKing (talk) 12:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Domer68, you were recently involved in disrupting the relevant case page . If you would like to provide constructive input, please answer this question: did BigDunc comply with the spirit of the restriction and discuss his revert after making it? If so, can you provide a diff? HighKing, if an user has been as long as Superfopp has, it is not impossible nor unacceptable - it is merely less likely. 1RR should be implemented fairly; but that doesn't make explanation any less important before, during or after a block. Reading the comment Superfopp made here speaks for itself - either he doesn't understand, or he's gaming the system. Finally, I am utterly uninvolved from the Troubles area, nor am I interested in the content dispute. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

That's sound HighKing, I'm happy enough to let AE deal with it. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:53, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I have asked Superfopp to undo his last edit of the article. Whether he agrees to do so might be taken into account by the closer of this AE case. I see that Superfopp last edited Misplaced Pages twelve hours ago (05:05 on 5 November), and much of the discussion here is newer. He should get a bit of time to answer. EdJohnston (talk) 17:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I've undid my last edit at EdJohnston's asking. I'm certain that Dunc, Domer or ONIH would've done that anyway once this discussion ended. I'd have much rather preferred a debate on the talk page, but that'll undoubtedly involve more of the usual ownership mentality and tag-teaming by Dunc, Domer, ONIH, and the rest. ~Asarlaí 17:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The potential for heated discussions at articles related to the PIRA, are great. Do to my own views on the PIRA, I prefer to stay out of them. GoodDay (talk) 18:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I’m happy enough with the outcome here, despite Superfopp’s bad grace, accusations and assumptions of bad faith. I will also note the precedent that has been set, were an editor can deliberately and knowingly violate 1RR and not be sanctioned. Will all editors be given such mitigation? As some editors always seem to be granted it, it is hardly surprising they have a block log at all. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Before closing this, I would argue that a "No revert of a revert" rule is appended to 1RR. It has many advantages - it stops tag teaming and it keeps articles stable because it practically forces discussions before editing. It has been pretty successful on the British Isles article to date IMHO. --HighKing (talk) 20:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. GoodDay (talk) 21:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Whaaat? a success - Sorry it may be a success for those who use Misplaced Pages as a social networking site but it has been an appalling disaster for content editors. Þjóðólfr (talk) 22:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I looked into Superfopp's previous contributions. Though he hasn't been blocked, he has made a lot of moves that were later undone, and seem like they were done without discussion. Though I'm glad he did the self-revert, things are not all rosy here, and future actions may not be so lenient. My suggestion to other admins would be: 1RRs should be easy to enforce and there should not be a long delay when AEs are filed asserting 1RR violations. If there is no self-revert, there should be a block. The second time the same person is brought here for 1RR reasons, more consequences should be on the table. EdJohnston (talk) 21:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

That's sound advice EdJohnston. A editors want is a level field. Could you look at the request below, because I agree 1RRs should be easy to enforce and there should not be a long delay when AEs are filed asserting 1RR violations.--Domer48_'fenian' 21:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Result regarding this request

Request concerning Stuart

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No action taken. AGK 02:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

User requesting enforcement

--Domer48_'fenian' 17:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Stuart (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Sanction or remedy that has been violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy

Revert #1 Revert #2 Par Revert #3

Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue

3 reverts in less than 24 hours, which is a violation of 1RR. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Unsure

Additional comments

There was an ongoing discussion on the talk page here, with the editor not attempting to address any of the issues raised. While I agree totally with Stuart's revert here, because of the disruptive nature of the tag and edit summary, coupled with that editors comments here and here not to mention equally uncivil edit summaries with there political overtones, the fact remains Stuart did go over the 1RR restriction.

Discussion regarding this request

I'm calling bullshit on this one. "A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part" By that rationale, if you edit any article, three times in a day you get blocked even if your edits are totally different? All three of those edits are totally different. They are not simple reverts like like Domer, Dunc and Mooretwin have been doing on this article for the last couple of days.

• Edit 1 was an attempt at a compromise, to try and stop the edit war between the three of them. Not a simple revert. The infobox does not necessarily need a foundation date. It's not a straightforward issue, and is better left to the lead and main body of the article. I explained this on the talk page, so I'm not sure why Domer is saying I didn't.
• Edit 2 was to remove an eleven month old refimprove tag. That really is a no brainer. The section is well referenced to my reading. Not a simple revert.
• Edit 3 was a clear attempt at a compromise, again to find some common ground and stop the opposing sides edit warring. I was trying to find a wording suitable to all. Not a simple revert.

The rest of Domer's report seems to be about Mooretwin.

The actions of Domer, Dunc, Mooretwin and others depress me. Constant reverting of each other, rampant incivility, it's a joke. I don't engage in it, I try to find solutions. If that's blockworthy, go right ahead. I grow more disillusioned with this place by the day. Stu 22:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

All the edits are different. Some aren't even reverts so there is nothing to be done here. I also agree that the incivility on that page is a far more serious issue and needs to be dealt with. Valenciano (talk) 14:05, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't see what Stuart has done here other than to seek a compromise. I do, however, object to Stuart's insinuation that I have been uncivil. If he objects to my conduct in disputing the actions of Dunc 'n' Domer then I do not apologise. It seems that I get penalised for having the tenacity to stand up to these confrontational editors who would otherwise be left alone to take WP:OWNERSHIP of several articles and edit them to their own content, without engaging in collaboration with other editors. It is most definitely not in the interests of this encyclopaedia to allow articles to be edited at the will of a small group of like-minded editors. Mooretwin (talk) 14:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

My issue with your editing has more to do with reverting. So many page's history's are littered with "undid ..... by Domer48" and the inevitable "undid ...... by Mooretwin" the next day. But I have to say starting a talk page discussion with "I see two nationalist editors" as you did on the Sinn Fein page is only going to result in a battlefield. Having said that, their behaviour towards you is much less civil. But anyway, we digress from the point of this page. Stu 15:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

We can't punish an editor who seeks compromises. GoodDay (talk) 17:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. Now there are three reverts there that reverses the actions of other editors. Its that simple. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not 100% certain anymore, concerning the application of 1RR for those articles. Thus my reason for doing 'no' reverts. GoodDay (talk) 18:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Revert #1 a straight forward revert of me here
• Revert #2 a straight forward revert of Moortwain here
• Par Revert #3 a par revert of Dunc here.

I hope that helps the editors above. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but it doesn't help, no. WP:3RR states: "Since the rule is intended to prevent edit warring, reverts which are clearly not edit warring will not breach the rule." while WP:1RR states that: "Some editors may choose voluntarily to follow a one-revert rule: If someone reverts your change, don't re-revert it."

Stuart's edits are demonstrably not edit warring, nor are they re-reverts. In contrast your slow edit warring adding or readding the same material on 3 November, 4 November 5 November 6 November and your own statements there that you intend to continue in that vein ignoring reliable sources and reverting instead of discussing is far more worrying. Valenciano (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Try reading these:

Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Sanction or remedy that has been violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case

Three reverts, simple as! --Domer48_'fenian' 20:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Are those the right diffs? Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Apparently they are (moving my comment to the correct section). The first edit doesn't revert the cited edit. Considered on its merits, it looks like a reasonable effort at compromise. Nuanced information doesn't belong in an infobox. A microbarnstar for that edit. The second one removes pointless tagcruft, and again it doesn't seem to revert the edit claimed. The third one does indeed look like a revert, but that's just one. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Well that's just BS IMO. They had their 1RR, and went on to make two more, regardless of its merits. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. Like I said simple as! --Domer48_'fenian' 21:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The first edit doesn't revert the cited edit. Oh does it not? Revert this editors edit here is not a revert of this here! Please! --Domer48_'fenian' 21:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

We seem to have three reverts in 24 hours, on an article subject to 1RR, on an extremely hot-button issue. None of Stuart's reverts are exceptions under WP:3RR so I don't think he can be forgiven for them in a 1RR situation. My suggestion would be that a block should be issued unless Stuart will agree to a voluntary restriction from editing this article. Due to the high volume of edits, it may be too late for him to do a self-revert. EdJohnston (talk) 21:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

You're free to disagree with my interpretation as long and as loud as you like, but that doesn't mean you're likely to change my opinion here. Your over-literal reading of the policy page would appear to make it a blockable offence for any editor to make four possibly controversial changes to a page in 24 hours, if these are made as separate edits. An edit war occurs when individual contributors or groups of contributors repeatedly override each other's contributions, but where, I wonder, is the repetition here? Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Angus its just a simple 1RR report. Your comments above sound a bit like mine here but I got pulled up on it. Yeh a bit much I know! Anyhow, like I said this is a simple stright forward one, can we not just deal with it and move on? --Domer48_'fenian' 23:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Three points:

1. I second the call of bullshit on this. Any edit to any article (apart from one that adds new material) will "reverse the actions of other editors, in whole or in part". Does someone breach 3RR, if they make four different edits to the same article in 24hrs? Does someone breach 1RR, if they make two?
2. Misplaced Pages is not a court of law. We don't interpret according to the letter. Some common sense, please.
3. I'd would be more concerned that the ArbCom ruling would be turned into another weapon to game the system with against presumed opponents in nationalist battles. (And I don't think Stu is a belligerent in such a battle.)

--rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 23:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Result regarding this request

Did Stuart revert thrice within twenty-four hours? Yes. Was that terribly wise on an article under 1RR? No. By doing so, did he disrupt the project? No. Would he get into bother if he does so again? Yes. But would sanctioning him be warranted? It would not. No action taken. AGK 02:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Request concerning 92.26.232.39

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Blocked for 24 hours. --Elonka 16:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

User requesting enforcement

--Domer48_'fenian' 15:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

92.26.232.39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Sanction or remedy that has been violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy

Revert #1 Revert #2 Revert #3

Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue

3 reverts in less than 24 hours, which is a violation of 1RR. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Unsure

Additional comments

A clear violation of 1RR, but I suppose it depends on the Admin?

Discussion regarding this request

Result regarding this request

Pretty obvious vandalism, so could have been blocked on that basis alone. Since it was a few hours ago, I normally wouldn't block an anon for something this old, but since it is a Troubles-related article, 1RR was violated, and there's an extensive history of IP-hopping in this area, I'm blocking for 24 hours. --Elonka 16:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Irvine22

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Irvine22

User requesting enforcement:
O Fenian (talk) 17:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Irvine22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. First revert
2. Second revert, within 24 hours of the first thus a breach of 1RR

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
Not applicable, but has been warned and blocked many times.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Block and/or topic ban

Additional comments by O Fenian (talk):
Immediately after coming off his fourth block for edit warring, which lasted a week, Irvine22 is back to edit warring. Both edits are at least partial reverts to Irvine22's own version (where he originally retitled the subsection as "Secession of the Irish Free State"). He is also making highly tendentious edits in related areas such as this and this, so I believe stiffer sanctions may be needed at this time. O Fenian (talk) 17:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Irvine22 is being disingenuous in his claim below, as for the purposes of 1RR "The Troubles" is "defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland". There can be little dispute that the section of the article he is editing falls under that definition. He was also cautioned over wikilawyering over what articles fall under that definition when last blocked, "When in doubt, assume it is related" avoids such problems. O Fenian (talk) 20:30, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

When has 1RR ever before been applied to the article History of the United Kingdom? Irvine22 (talk) 20:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
Diff

Discussion concerning Irvine22

Statement by Irvine22

LOL the tag team springs back into action!

History of the United Kingdom is clearly not a "Troubles-related" article and hence not subject to 1RR. Has 1RR ever been applied to this article before? If so, when?

My edit was discussed on the article's talk page, and the consensus was to go with the accurate, NPOV, and sourced phrase "secession of the Irish Free State". This is a case of "just don't like it" by the reporting editor. Irvine22 (talk) 20:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

I believe the time has come to 'bar' this editor from Troubles-related articles. GoodDay (talk) 18:38, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe the time has come to initiate a RfC regarding the tag team editing engaged in by O Fenian, RepublicanJacobite and Domer48.Irvine22 (talk) 20:45, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

That's your choice. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Concur with GoodDay. This editor takes each block, and then returns to repeat the same edits the minute the block ends. --Snowded 21:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Irvine22

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Request concerning Rockpocket

User requesting enforcement

--Domer48_'fenian' 21:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Rockpocket (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Sanction or remedy that has been violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy

Revert #1 Revert #2 Revert #3

Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue

2 reverts in less than 24 hours, which is a violation of 1RR. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Unsure

Additional comments

Their actions on the third revert here, resulting as it does in the removal of the text I added here from the article could be viewed as gaming. Having added the text, their removal is tantamount to a revert. Regardless they did go over the 1RR limit with this text being removed.

Discussion regarding this request

Result regarding this request

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

1. Benny Morris, Righteous Victims - First Arab-Israeli War - Operation Yoav.