Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:41, 27 December 2005

copied source

This article appears to copy some text directly from the David Miscaige web page. Davidstrauss 19:13, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ouch. Yes, it does -- there's only one paragraph there that doesn't appear here. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bias

This SCREAMS for an NPOV dispute. "accidentally" exposed to Dianetics and all his allergies went away? I call bias.

I have tried to edit this some using sources it listed and my own research. I worry though I'm just countering the bias the original writer I had with my own. Still I think it is a bit more neutral now or in least mentions criticism. --T. Anthony 05:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Interesting edits. I doubt this version could be seen as too biased for him. They might even be a tad too harsh or in least unverified. (And I think Scientology is basically nuts, but there is still a gossippy quality to the writing of new edits that slightly concerns me)--T. Anthony 06:43, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I am changing the closing comment on this page, the reason being obvious supposition. The truth is Mr. Miscavige is very respected by both staff and parishioners. Of course, critics make him out to be some kind of ogre. But, as the leader of the Church, whether people agree with the Church or not, this kind of comment is not NPOV, so rather than making it pro-him (which I am sure someone will then accuse me of not being NPOV) I am just taking it out. --Nuview 11:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with your reasons but agree with your conclusions. Saying "the truth is Mr. Miscavige is very respected by both staff and parishioners" runs into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy -- there are plenty of former Scientologists who saw Miscavige's actions as their proof that the Church no longer adhered to Scientology as Hubbard defined it and actually left the Church on that basis -- so saying that staff and parishioners respect Miscavige is like a business saying "All our customers are satisfied customers -- because those who weren't satisfied are no longer customers." But the comment that you removed tried to "jump in the jury box" inappropriately, so it's better removed. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Image copyright problems

User:Runeartisem has uploaded an image of miscavige that infringes on a copyright and has twice put the image in the article. I have removed it for the second time. An admin needs to delete the image. --Fahrenheit451 22:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Another editor has added an image of miscavige without copyright information. I am removing it until the ownership status is clarified.--Fahrenheit451 19:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

An editor just beat me to the removal.--Fahrenheit451 19:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I could have sworn I selected "Screenshot" from the pulldown menu.... the image is a screenshot from the video of the RTC 2000 New Year's address, taken from www.verfassungsschutz-bw.de/ so/so_hubbard.htm . wikipediatrix 19:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Your statement is illogical: We were discussing copyright infringement, which you committed, then you attempt to change the subject to the "pulldown menu" nonsense excuse.--Fahrenheit451 23:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Excuse me? Wow, whatever happened to "no personal attacks" and "good faith"? Let me make it simpler for you, please follow along if you are able:
  • The image I posted was a screenshot from a German TV program's airing of footage from the RTC 2000 New Year's address.
  • I was under the impression that screenshots were not copyright violations. There are words to that effect on the Misplaced Pages upload-image page.
  • There is a pulldown menu from which one must select a type of image when uploading. As I already indicated, I could have sworn I selected "Screenshot" but apparently I did not. wikipediatrix 03:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

No, you saw exactly what you uploaded and as that differed from the alleged screenshot, you should have known it did not go as intended. I have assumed good faith and did not personally attack you. I censured you for uploading a copyrighted image when you should have known better.--Fahrenheit451 17:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about. "you saw exactly what you uploaded and as that differed from the alleged screenshot"? What does this mean? Please translate for me. What I uploaded WAS the "alleged screenshot" of Miscavige at the podium. Using language like "your attempt to change the subject to the "pulldown menu" nonsense excuse" is COMPLETELY insulting, uncivil, and bad faith. And you STILL haven't explained what was wrong with the image. You say it's not fair use and I say it is. I'm citing Misplaced Pages's own upload-image page for my position, what are you citing for yours?wikipediatrix 17:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

You did not apply the upload image policy: You omitted adding the licensing status of the image. After the image is uploaded, you see it. So you knew what it should have looked like. There is no evidence that the image you uploaded is fair use. It actually links from a scientology website that does have copyright notices on the pages. I suggest you take responsibility and knock off your attacks and justifications.--Fahrenheit451 16:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Pot, kettle, black. What did I say that was an attack?? Quote me. And yes, I know I accidentally omitted the licensing status, I said that from the very beginning and you got all condescending and cranky about it, insisting that my answer was a "nonsense excuse" and that "I should have known better". Thanks for being SO constructive and helpful. wikipediatrix 19:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Referencing

This article needs hard-arsed referencing, on the paragraph and sentencing level. This will be actual work. Anyone want to have a go? - David Gerard 12:06, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

- Good point, David. I started to fact check this article. So much was unverifiable, it should actually be classified as original research. I decided it would just be easier to start from scratch. So, that’s what I did. There is plenty of material in places like the St. Petersburg Times. Check out the new, verified article. Have a Merry Xmas!

Unfortunately, this new, "from scratch" article contains a great deal of verbatim copying from its "references", which we cannot accept. Please try to work with what came before you, rather than deciding that you have the ability and the mandate to single-handedly replace it all. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the quotes. (I’m just getting the hang of this.) Have removed same. I will see what can be salvaged from the prior version (it’s quite opinionated, but we’ll see) – Independentmike 16:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I reverted it back. The new version read like an Scientolgoy promotional brochure about DM (Entheta 00:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

I worry that this article has some factual holes – especially given the recent flurry. So I fixed an inaccuracy. RTC only owns trademarks. I noticed this in the Los Angeles Times article last weekend. (Streamlight 01:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

Yes, I fixed another one. Nuview 20:25, 25 December 2005 (PST)

No source was given for the statement regarding Coale and Van Susteren. Reputable sources, including the NY Times and St. Petersburg Times agree that Miscavige was the driving force behind the IRS recognition.Nuview 22:50, 25 December 2005 (PST)

They don't agree, they report what they have been fed by the osa public relations folks.--Fahrenheit451 04:48, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement was added 2 days ago, but editor gave no source for statement. Makes article read like a tabloid. Statement removed because not verifiable. (Streamlight 05:22, 26 December 2005

Statements added without any reference to a source. Without some reputable source, these statements read like original research. Removed as not verifiable. Streamlight 05:55, 26 December 2005

Just like the editor in the Seigenthaler scandal, this is an anonymous editor who makes extreme allegations without any sources. Unverifiable. Streamlight 06:29, 26 December 2005

You are referring to yourself Streamlight, you are anonymous, no user page. Interesting. --Fahrenheit451 03:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Other items with no source. Deleted as unverifiable. (Streamlight 07:20, 26 December 2005

No source given for this. Published accounts (e.g., St. Petersburg Times) do not support this version, which is clearly a negative POV. (Streamlight 08:02, 26 December 2005

I followed the back and forth today but I feel that this is important to add in. Independentmike 03:05, 26 December 2006

Again, no source given, deleted as unverifiable and replacing improper link. (Streamlight07:16, 26 December 2005

Antaeus Feldspar - Okay. However, this lermanet.com page is over the top, even as a critical site. I am replacing it with a neutral (non-Church, non-critic site) - the NNDB page, which is neither here nor there. Nuview 17.00, 26 December 2005 (PST)

Over the top of what? You are using a generality. The osa pr line is that if a site is critical, it is lying. That is nonsense.--Fahrenheit451 04:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I am removing this entry about “the blind leading the blind” and referring to “Comm Evs,” the links to incomprehensible web pages show this to be a completely obscure topic, which will only confuse the readers. Nuview 01.40, 27 December 2005 (PST)

Just curious Nuview, are Independentmike and Streamlight just other personas (sockpuppets) you use?--Fahrenheit451 04:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Van Susteren and Coale in fact did initiate the action with Clinton to settle the irs dispute with the cofs. No research, just observation. This was "confidential" data in the cofs, but no more. --Fahrenheit451 03:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

(Re: Fahrenheit451 03:44, 27 December 2005 revision )Reverted as an individual’s “Observation” is not a verifiable source. You can’t remove statements based on a source such as NY Times, and replace with your own original research and unverifiable. Clearly covered in Wiki rules. (Streamlight 6:18 GMT, 27 December 2005

Here is a relevent section of Flo Barnett's autopsy report. I would say she died under very unusual and suspicious circumstances.--Fahrenheit451 04:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

GSR DATA SHEET

  Probable Accident
  Probable Suicide

X Questionable Suicide Possible Homicide

  Probable Homicide

X Homicide Investigator Requests Rush

INFORMATION ABOUT DECEDENT/SHOOTING: X Right Handed Left Handed Unknown Male X Female

Occupation: Medical Transcriber Activity Prior to Shooting: Unknown Have the decedent's hands been touched by anyone prior to taking the GSR sample? X Yes No If yes, by whom? X Paramedics Family Police

                   X  Hospital Personnel            Other

Was the weapon found in the decedent's hand? X Yes No If yes, which one? X Right Left

Shooting Occurred: X Indoors Outdoors Unknown Location of Body: X Indoors Outdoors Automobile

                       Hospital     Other

Number of Shots Fired: Possibly 5

Date 9-8-85 and Time of Shooting Date 9-8-85 and Time 2135 GSR samples were taken.

GSR evidence collected At Scene At FSC X At Hospital

    Other                 By:  Debrah Kitchings

Body transported to FSC via X Coroner's vehicle MTS

FIREARM:

    Revolver     Semi-automatic/automatic  X  Rifle       Shotgun
    Other (e.g., Derringer, Single shot pistol, etc.) Semi-auto
                                                      Serial #11132327
    Made/Model  Ruger 1022           Caliber   22

AMMUNITION: Brand of Ammunition Unknown Type of Ammunition Unknown

Comments: 3 expended projectiles recovered by LASO at scene

          unknown brand.

                             Debrah A. Kitchings   9-8-85
                             Investigator          Date