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faq page Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
[REDACTED]	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 12, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted August 18, 2004 Today's featured article Main Page January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept September 16, 2008 Featured article review Kept November 4, 2008 Today's featured article Main Page December 2, 2008 Featured article review Kept March 10, 2009 Featured article review Kept A news item involving this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008. Current status: Featured article

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Special discussion pages Article probation, Incidents Historical diffs, Weight, Race

This page has archives. Sections older than 10 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

== Why is this page censored? ==

Poorly sourced bit removed pending further discussion

I removed this bit:

Early in his presidency, Obama liked to hang with his gangsta boys, he also enjoyed long strolls through the white house naked while playing the fiddle on a unicycle.

ref name="autogenerated1"Obama Calls for U.S. Military to Renew Focus on Afghanistan /ref

This isn't adequate for a statement of fact of this type. I'm also concerned about the accuracy, since I think the drawdown of troops was already planned (and underway?) before Obama took office. Can someone find a better source(s) and propose an accurate description of events based on them? ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we need to replace it. It doesn't contribute anything the next two sentences don't. Grsz 04:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, it is a minor bit of information that does not really help the rest of the paragraph. Brothejr (talk) 09:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Awaiting archiving of the long sockpuppet thread above before changing the Miszabot back to 14 days, but in the meantime I see a flaw in this edit that I don't have the time to elaborate on so am posting to prevent this particular thread from archival until I can get to this, at which point I'll remove this post. Abrazame (talk) 07:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

How's this? I manually archived it to archive #68, the current one. I considered putting it in archive #66, which houses a lot of the discussions started by multiplyperfect, but I am not 100% convinced this is a sock of the same editor. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Health care reform

Is it possible to make the section on health care reform more encyclopedic? It doesn't seem to say anything specific about the reform plan or what it actually entails (although it notes his support for a public option, which I don't think is in the legislation any more?). This is a fairly substantial issue in his presidency and it think would be helpful to get beyond the rather hollow "reform" language that isn't particularly informative. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe when a Bill is passed and signed something more can be added. As for the public option, the House passed a Bill with that included, the Senate did not. They are currently meeting and discussing how to reconcile the two Bills. Also, the section doesn't seem 'hollow' to me, especially since there has been no final passage. DD2K (talk) 03:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Details are covered in the main articles. Going into details would only double or even triple the size of Obama's bio and undue comes into mind (for his bio). Unless you have one or two major points that can be addressed here with one or two short sentences it's moot. Do you have a specific proposal to add?The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Obama's health care proposals are his signature legislative endeavor so far and something he campaigned on. Including only the meaningless platitude about "reform" isn't helpful. An encyclopedia article needs to say the key elements of what his reform proposal entails. There's lots of minor legislation noted throughout the article, so it's kind of amazing that this signature legislation isn't spelled out more. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

You strongly disagree to what exactly? I made it clear in my post that one or two short sentences which of course should be about the "key elements of what his reform proposal entails" could and should be included. And I said "one or two short sentences" (additional to what we have know) are warranted in my opinion till the "final draft" of a bill is passed.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 05:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Fantastic. We see eye to eye as usual. I'd just like have some substance and specifics included since it's such an important and notable issue. If someone else wants to come up with proposed wording and a couple sources that would be great, otherwise I'm happy to take a stab at it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Then take a "stab" at it, preferable here on the talk page but that's your decision.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 06:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, making suggestions on the talk page is part of the process, so have at it. Personally, I don't know why we have a play-by-play of what has been happening in the Congress, and not a description of what they are working on. If someone wants to add the description(making it illegal for insurance companies to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, putting caps on health care payments, etc), along with the plan to reduce costs by including a 'public option' and modernizing how health care providers/insurers conduct business, then we should get rid of the play-by-play until a final Bill is passed and signed. DD2K (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so I tried to find a good source with the key components (I thought Obama layed out 10 or so criteria that he said needed to be met?), but I couldn't find a good one. Using this source from the New York Times , I think something along the lines of:

Obama has called for reforms to expand health insurance coverage to the uninsured in a $900 billion over 10 years plan that includes a government insurance plan (option) to compete with the private sector, makes it illegal for insurers to drop sick people or deny them coverage for pre-existing conditions, and requires every American carry health coverage. The plan also includes medical spending cuts and taxes on insurance companies that offer expensive plans. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

...in regards to this edit, (and I'm just commenting on what caught my eye at first glance and out of my own possible flawed memory which are located in my guts): His "key campaign promise..." did include mandatory health coverage for children, not for every American as Clinton proposed. Although this was later changed at some point after he was elected. Also the "public option", I think, was his wish but not a clear promise back then. Besides the above it needs some ce but if the edit should get consensus in general there sure will be some and the only open question is if this should be worked out at the talk page first or edited as needed in the article itself. The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Spoken version way out of date

The spoken version of the article is far out of date (Sept. 3, 2008) . The link should be disabled until an up-to-date version is available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanturvey (talk) 12:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with how to treat spoken versions of an article but IMO the existing one should be taken out as it is really way out of date. Any suggestions out there?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't find any specific advice about what to do with dated material at WP:SPOKEN (other than a warning that spoken versions can be out of date). -- Scjessey (talk) 22:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Reading to the "problems" section there I think we should purge the existing link for now while pointing out this "dilemma" (to commons?). I'm basically clueless on how to proceed.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yea, I looked around too and didn't know how to fix it, or what to do until it can be fixed. Then I saw that this is done on Wikimedia and who made the last file. Davumaya made the last audio version, so I put in a request for him to make an update. I think we should put any action on hold until we get a response. DD2K (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I commented-out the code for the existing version before I saw this note. Feel free to revert if you think it is best. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I did undo the change. If only to make it easier for those at Wikimedia to update the version. I put a request template at the top of the talk page(per their instructions), so hopefully we hear one way or the other from someone. DD2K (talk) 23:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• After ec: :::Meanwhile, I left a note at the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages page here.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, that's another good step. And if they say that it's better to disable until it can be fixed, my revert can be re-reverted. In any case, it should be resolved sooner or latter now. DD2K (talk) 23:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be better to leave it out for now and try to work out a decision within the next few days on how to handle this. So I reversed you for now.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, if that's what you both want, it's ok with me. I was just thinking that it would be better to have an old version for the handicapped and visually impaired, than no version. DD2K (talk) 00:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought about this . But thinking further down the issue I changed my mind since there is a major change since the last speaking version was done . There is already one response to this at WP:SPOKEN which is in favor to leave it out for now. I, of course, prefer a long term solution with a new updated audio clip.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:20, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Looks like we'll get an updated version soon thanks to DD2K's inquire here.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 19:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Your wish is fulfilled, the recording of Intro + Part 1 is done. Part 2 is coming up. davumaya 11:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, davumaya, the article is very large and your work is much appreciated. DD2K (talk) 13:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Image

BHO is very articulate and good looking, many have said so, though some people saying so said it in a gaffe-ish way (Reid, Biden, Berluscone). Valid to add a short part there. Per another user's instructions, I'm following them and mentioning it here. JB50000 (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

He's also taller than me. What's your point? --averagejoe (talk) 05:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Barack Obama is half white and the definition does not mention this. I do not look at him as a black president, he had a black father and white mother. He is also not African-American, he is black and white mix. The term African-American applies to people that lived in Africa and then came to America either by force during slavery or by choice after slavery was abolished. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ItTakesACarter2GetaReagan (talk • contribs) 03:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

No, African American refers to citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa. Grsz 04:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• I'm sure everyone is relieved to hear your personal opinion on how you 'look at' President Obama, as well as your own personal definition of what the term African American exactly means, but you are incorrect about the exact definition. Here is what Misplaced Pages defines African American as: --citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa. In the United States, the terms are generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry--. Here is the definition from Websters. In addition to that, the article definitely mentions who Barack Obama's parents were and lists their ethnicities. DD2K (talk) 04:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe that Obama considers himself Black or African American. If so, that's his description. If he considers himself biracial and prefers that over African American, we listen to him. Only if he considers himself a British Sikh will we not listen to him and put down the facts. Some Eskimos do not like to be called that and prefer the term Inuit so their feelings should be respected. The same should go for this article. JB50000 (talk) 05:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe if he thought he was a leprechaun that wouldn't make it fact. He's not black. He's white/black which the dictionary defines as mulatto. This is not a dirty word and should be used more often. There's nothing wrong with being half white and black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.158.2.165 (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Please refer to Q2 of the FAQ section at the top of this page. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Citation #2

Citation #2 needs revision or update, Birth certificate is no longer located at this address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.248.73 (talk) 20:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

So, uh, where's the birth certificate? /me flees Sceptre 20:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The link has been updated to new static address of the Politifact scan. DD2K (talk) 20:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

where's the skepticism? Too much subjectivity and guessing

This article reads like it was written by supporters trying to seem neutral. There is almost no skeptisism of anything in his life, record, deeds or other. I can find several examples in almost every paragraph. Here's just one:

"In June, Obama, unsatisfied with the pace of economic stimulus investment, called on his cabinet to accelerate the spending over the next week. In March, Obama's Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, took further steps to manage the financial crisis, including introducing the Public-Private Investment Program, which contains provisions for buying up to $2 trillion in depreciated real estate assets that were deemed to be weighing down stock valuations, freezing the credit market and delaying economic recovery."

So first, saying what his motivation was to increase spending is very subjective. The administration claims he was unsatisfied with the levels of spending, but for all we know he was unsatisfied with the poll numbers relating to the levels of spending. Also, to say that the assets were "depreciated" is not accurate. They were "toxic", but "depreciated" is what happens to disposable assets like trucks... a truck is say $10,000 when you buy it. The first year, you use $2,000 worth of it, so it has depreciated 20% annually. These mortgage assets were bad investments. They didn't depreciate, they collapsed because they had no valuable use, like a truck does. Next, the weren't "deemed to be weighing down the stock valuations". They were "claimed by Treasury, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street to be weighing down bank balance sheets." These toxic securities weren't stocks, they were derivatives. The stock valuations of FINANCIAL FIRMS ONLY were weighed down by TOXIC ASSETS on their BALANCE SHEETS because the ASSETS they held in reserve (their capitalization) had a much higher book value than market value. Next, Geithner is not "Obama's Treasury Secretary". He is the Secretary of the Treasury for the United States of America, not Obama. Last, to say that all this was "delaying economic recovery" is a guess, not a fact. Actually, nothing in the world says there MUST be an economic recovery at all, and this article assumes there will be and that it was delayed somehow by toxic assets. As a matter of fact, these assets did not "delay recovery", they created the need for a recovery by creating an economic crash.

I rewrite this whole page, and start with this paragraph. Here's how it should read:

"In June, Obama called on his cabinet to accelerate the spending of stimulus money over the next week, claiming that he was unsatisfied with the pace of spending to date. In March, Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, introduced the Public-Private Investment Program, which contains provisions for buying up to $2 trillion in toxic real estate derivatives that were deemed to be weighing down the balance sheets of banks, freezing the Inter-Bank credit markets where banks lend to each other for fear of unknown exposure to these toxic assets." Zodiacww (talk) 08:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The language in place at the moment reflects what has been said in reliable sources, not the views of the article authors (who are many). Please assume good faith. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

True, the introductory paragraph is a little speculative as to the reasons... but the comment has merit regarding the tone of the article. Reliable sources are just that, sources. We're an encyclopedia and they are not, so it does make some sense to be more precise than they are, e.g. the comment that an official is the US Secretary of the Treasury, not "Obama's". - Wikidemon (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry for presuming motive. All I meant is that, that is how it seems. I'm new to editing, long, long, long time wiki reader though. Zodiacww (talk) 00:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Good, welcome aboard and don't let anyone scare you. You've just jumped into a slightly anxious editing environment on this particular article. There's an editing guideline called WP:BITE that might apply here. Cheers, - Wikidemon (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I tend to have a preference for duck myself, especially with a nice Chianti. Tarc (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I thought you were misquoting Hannable Lector but look what I found on your duct link: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Don%27t_drink_the_consensus_Kool-Aid Zodiacww (talk) 20:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Campaign is over, political positions section needs to go

The campaign is over. The political positions sections need to go. If not, it doesn't represent his positions too well. Keeping it represents the dumbing down of Misplaced Pages because it is way too simple and not even accurate. JB50000 (talk) 07:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

So you don't think that the political positions of the US president are important to Misplaced Pages readers? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Political positions needs expansion. Also, we need a controversies section.Malke2010 16:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Why do we need a "controversies section"? Why can't notable controversies be woven in to the body of the article where appropriate? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

A controversy section appears in many BLP's on wikipedia. Weaving them into Obama's article and then using soft articles as citations by friendly Washington Post type reporters where Obama isn't asked hard questions appears dishonest. Also, somebody searching specifically for information on his controversies would have to wade through the entire lengthy article. As the article stands now, the controversies are synthesized to downplay them, offer references that support the synthesis, and then the next sentence moves on to something else, as if the controversy has been explained away and dispensed with. The synthesis WP: SYN isn't allowed.Malke2010 17:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

So your argument is based on the idea that because other articles have controversy sections, then this article should too. Sadly, that is not a good argument for a controversy section and ideally articles should interweave controversies into the relevant section. (Before you reply that we should go into those articles that have controversy sections and remove them: this is not the place to make that comment and if you have problems with those sections, then it's best to take it up in those article's talk pages.) Thanks - Brothejr (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about other BLP's. It's about the WP:SYN of Obama's controversies. Please stay on topic.Malke2010 17:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Um, I was on topic and you might want to read what WP:SYN actually says because simply put: it has absolutely no baring in any of this. The facts as stated by the references are in the article, just not in a convenient section for you to go to. Brothejr (talk) 17:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a synthetic argument to me.Malke2010 18:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, you are making no sense. The premises of your argument has been: we need the controversies pointed out in a section for easy reading. As far as a synthetic argument, if you mean is it made out of Polyester, then no I prefer Denim myself. Now, back on topic, if you actually have a suggestion for a specific improvement/addition, please write it here. However, if you're here just to comment on other editors or how this article is written, then thank you for your comments, but this is not the place for them. Brothejr (talk) 18:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem upset. Please stay on topic, and WP:CIVIL. I was asked by another editor why I felt there needed to be a controversy section. I answered. Then you came back with your question. I answered in a polite and informed manner.Malke2010 18:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

And you where given a polite and informative answer here too. To add on in regards of "controversy sections": For quite some time we're trying (just as Brother stated above) to "interweave controversies into the relevant section" and not just for this article. Look into the edit history of other major politicians and you'll see the effort being made. Simply said: "Controversy sections" are mostly depreciated at least where possible.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:52, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW: The section title implies a different discussion. Just saying. The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, but I think Brother's comments were clearly lacking in WP:CIVIL and I appropriately and accurately addressed them. I agree that a WP:BLP is better served by weaving controversy, but it seems that the practice on this particular article has been done through WP:SYN. A good compromise would be to revisit some of these citations to insure WP:NPOV and allow the addition of the legitimate counterpoints to the controversies.Malke2010 19:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Brothejr's comments were civil enough. The neutral point of view is well represented in this featured article. If you have specific suggestions for inclusion then by all means make them, but calling for a controversy section just for the sake of it will get you nowhere. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

You are incorrect. Brothejr was the polite one answering your questions and it seems that you may need to read both WP:Civil and WP:SYN. Your understanding in both of those guidelines seems to be lacking somewhat. DD2K (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Barack Obama's controversies should be revisited, especially their WP:SYN with the questionable citations. As regards Brother's sarcasm, I suggest you drop the WP:STICK.Malke2010 20:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

(after ec) Now finally you lost me too. What exactly are you referring to when you point out wp:SYNTH and what citations do you see as questionable ones? Could you please clarify? That would be a start so you can get more specific answers. Thanks, The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

If you see a particular example of WP:SYN, or weak citations, why not bring it up here after revisiting the matter? I don't see how that has anything to do with whether criticism and controversies are culled to form their own dedicated section, or woven into the portions dealing with the subject matter at hand. I don't think you'll find much appetite for a renewed proposal that we break out a new section for that, and meta-discussion about which way encourages better editing practices might be more useful at WP:CRIT than here. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

(ui) back to the original question, I think that "positions" per se are a lot less important to a sitting president than a candidate. During the election one can look at a candidate's proposals, policy platform, record, and stated positions, and probably a few other things. Once elected their actual performance in office becomes relatively more important. This article, and even more so the child articles, suffer a bit by conflating all of these things. Making a speech announcing your position on something is a lot different than getting legislation passed (or signing it despite reservations). - Wikidemon (talk) 20:43, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Please stay on topic(jk)...errr...I mean I agree. I was going through the Barack Obama political positions section and thought it definitely needs to be cleaned up. Or maybe even some of it moved over to Political positions of Barack Obama and Presidency of Barack Obama. I wouldn't oppose a change in that section off-hand, and do believe it reads more like a candidate than a president. DD2K (talk) 20:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Positions that might've changed since he became President should be updated, of course, but we're stuck with RS's that say so. Let's take a look at Gitmo for example: He still wants to get out but it seems to take longer than he (Obama) expected. Does it change his political position at this point? No, I don't think so. It's changing his timeline unless he pulls back on the basis of his original promise. We should take a look at each of his positions and see if sources show an "unexpected" change in his position to some issues.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we need to include every time Obama modulates his position to allow for the realistic timing of something. He seems to be firm in his convictions on Gitmo, for example. Changes in position from campaign promises should not be made too much of. The reality of governing should be considered when reevaluating his positions.Malke2010 21:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"...when reevaluating his positions." Again and for the last time: What exactly would you like to change? Unless you keep on talking about in general this will only become a disruptive thread which we had plenty of and will be closed soon. So please come up with something we can work on or this thread is gone/closed very soon.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:06, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

It's very clear I was responding to your comment "We should take a look at each of his positions and see if sources show an "unexpected" change in his position to some issues." If you are going to look at each of his political positions you should do so with the understanding that he is now governing, and, in fairness to him, that is very different from being a candidate making a promise. If you do that, then it doesn't matter if he's had what you call an 'unexpected change.' And framing comments the way you did above, comes across as bullying and threatening with an ultimatum. You do not control this article or this talk page. Everyone is free to offer suggestions, opinions, and to edit. It's always best to WP:AGF.Malke2010 22:54, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

ROFL. You can't go around accusing fellow Wikipedians of "bullying" you, "threatening" you "with an ultimatum" and ownership ("You do not control this article or this talk page.") while insisting they assume good faith in the same breath. That's akin to saying "don't fucking curse" to someone. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

(after ec) So much for wp:AGF. I no longer talk to you with the environment you've set. Bye bye The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The funny thing is that s/he's not even made clear what the "bullying" part is. I just read a lot of blablabla but even if asked more than just once the editor doesn't (or can't????) give a clear answer what s/he wants to have changed. Seems to me just another editor who is not up to date (wiki wise) and just wants to have a "criticism section" no matter what???? I'm clueless, honestly, and if nothing constructive will come from this editor how to enhance the article I will do what I already said in my last edit summary. Cheers, The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

There's already been useful comments, such as that this section is better for candidates that are running, that there is the problem of positions changing so do we use the current one and ignore the old one or just show how it's been slightly modified. If Magnificant Clean-keeper is saying bye-bye, he can leave but should not close the discussion.

So focusing the discussion...one question is if we should keep it only current or make it the history of his positions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JB50000 (talk • contribs)

Continued discussion of whether to have this section or not

1. Support JB50000 (talk) 06:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it's important to keep talking about it. It's important for his positions to be known, especially with all the babel coming out of Congress. This is a good article, overall, and people wanting to know more about Obama will come to Misplaced Pages and if his positions are spelled out, it could be helpful to them. Also, he's only been in office one year. Maybe the political positions could become a separate article, a stub, maybe, if people don't want it on the main article.Malke2010 17:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Malke, you're the reason I collapsed this thread because you led it of track and had no concrete answer to what you actually want to have changed. Even after you're asked several times you made no specific proposal whatsoever. To make this clear: I collapsed this section since became a dead-end which had nothing to do with JB's original title. And if you would've read the "Political positions" section in this article you would know that there IS a sub article . Cheers, The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
• Further comment. The section should definitely stay although it might be possible to trim it down further. The only question is how far and which part(s). Some specific suggestion would be appreciated.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments to individual editors are best left on their talk pages.Malke2010 22:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I've responded to your comment made above and stayed pretty much on subject (at least as far as I see it) and those do belong here. If you have further "things" you would like to discuss with me on a more personal bases you certainly can do so on my talk page.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:26, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

When people edit BLP's, they seem to forget that the reader's best intrests need to be the first priority. With that in mind, we need this section. Many readers may just be looking for that topic and instead of weaveing it into the article, it would nice to have hem in clear sight. (Then again, this is comming from a McCain supporter so I may get blamed for political bias but oh well....)--Coldplay Expért 22:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - On first glance I would lean towards deprecating this section in favor of putting any useful information into the chronological sections about Obama's major acts, legislation, etc. That's not to say a separate article could organize his major beliefs, positions, initiatives, etc., thematically rather than chronologically, but I don't think that's the best way to present information here. I don't think we'll be in a position to encyclopedically assess as a lifelong matter what Obama's political positions have been until the final chapter is written. I don't terribly object, though, so if peole want it to stay so be it. It might also help to look to some other presidential featured articles to see how they treat this. Not per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but rather to get some inspiration on how to do it well. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

If we want to see and learn from other presidential articles we would need to look into their article's history and see how they where "treated" at the time they where in office. Of course, since WP didn't really exist before maybe George W. Bush (and since then changed it's approach quite a bit - just think about criticism sections which are now mostly depreciated) it might be difficult if not impossible to apply those credentials from then to now. Maybe we have to refigure it (if we want to change it) which would or could then be an example for other high profile articles to come.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

If featured / good quality articles about deceased or retired world leaders don't generally have a "political positions" section we can perhaps surmise that it's not always a good idea even when done, which I think would mean there is even less of a call to try to summarize the matter while still in office. If they do, we can perhaps see some examples of how it can be treated. It's just a data point that could be useful. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Obama is still serving his presidency. It's only his first year. There's a lot going on right now and members of congress have their own agenda. If you remove the positions section entirely, even if there is a sub-article, I am concerned that his voice here is being subdued.Malke2010 23:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed.--Coldplay Expért 00:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Also agree with readers' needs.Malke2010 00:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: History of his positions - a concise summary.

1. Oppose (support complete removal), but this is a possibility JB50000 (talk) 06:07, 18 January 2010 (UTC) (DDK2 and Wikidemon seems to suggest an oppose and favoring removal of this section, which I can see their point)

Proposal: Keep the section only to reflect his 2008 positions then when he campaigns for 2012, replace it with his party platform

1. Oppose This would be too commercial an approach, not very encyclopedic. JB50000 (talk) 06:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think either of the above two is viable as a proposal to be !voted on. In the first place, I don't think there is much call at all for expanding the political positions position section by turning it into a chronological account of how they arose, evolved, changed, etc. By nature "positions" is a snapshot of a person's current thinking. If we want to turn that into a moving picture by examining it over time we are basically retelling the entire biography but from a standpoint of his positions, as opposed to his actions, events, etc. I don't think that's called for in this main article. That would be a matter for a sub-article if anything, and would have to be fully developed there before we come up with a condensed version here. Regarding the second proposal, we can't !vote on what we're going to do in 2012. All we have to work with for now is 2010. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

We do have a sub-article and you know it. Are you thinking about creating a new sub? And if so under what title as "political positions" is already taken.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I would not wish to create a new sub-article. I am saying that before we consider a section here on the evolution of Obama's ositions over time there should be a sub-article covering it. Whether or not the "political positions" article gives us a starting point I don't know, but I don't think it's a good idea either way. The current child article is a half-formed and messy attempt to distill Obama's position in the present, although it is more than a year out of date in that respect. Right now we have a "presidency of" article, and articles about his legislative career. Going through his life in order to distill out his political positions would be redundant because it takes a second pass through the same things, it is slicing the same cake in a different direction. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I concur with you that the "political positions" sub needs some major updating. After the election had passed the article was pretty much abounded and is severely outdated as new developments are implemented in his "presidency" article while neglecting the other (article). To incorporate the positions article with the presidency article would be overkill in size so I wouldn't be opposed to a major redo of the first one and then again summarize it here on Obama's main article but this would be a major effort and would take more than one editor to do so. But don't count on me as I usually only fix errors or other minor (or not so minor) content as you should know by now. Not that I wouldn't like to help out more but... . The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, at least a summary on this article.Malke2010 00:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Support how does this proposal violate WP:SOAP at all?--Coldplay Expért 00:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Where does it say that the proposal violates wp:soap? I can't even find the word in this section so I'm a little confused. Can you enlighten me, please? Thanks, The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:07, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that anywhere, Coldplay. Are you saying that this proposal violates WP:SOAP, because I don't think it would, not in the least. The President of the United States better well have positions. That's why we elected him. The question is whether or not to delete his positions from this article.Malke2010 01:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I just asked him on his talk page about the "soap" thingy which left me clueless as I too couldn't find even the word in this section.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he confused it with WP:SYN, which would also not apply.Malke2010 01:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it never says anything about soap. However, it may be considered advertiseing by puting his positions on the page. Sorry for the misunderstanding.--Coldplay Expért 02:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

First year in office

This article has some summary style accounts of some major policy issues during Obama's first year in office . It's a very liberal source (LA Times) so it's quite flattering and leaves out the unfavorables, but I still thought it was interesting and might be worth using as an article source. I think more substance on the most notable aspects of Obama's career needs to be added as it develops and the depictions his previous campaigns and platform are overdue for trimming. I'm making this a subsection of the above discussion as it seems to relate to that discussion in some respects. As there's been action on his policy positions, that content needs to be worked in and some of the lesser spin and fluff removed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Obama's health care position has changed somewhat. During the campaign, he was against the public option but now he's for it. However, he will not join a jihad for it and is probably willing to let it go. Dumb down Misplaced Pages and what are you going to say? Obama is for Obamacare?

In selecting positions, who is to say that his Venezuela position is not notable or not to be mentioned, yet the obscure subject of Dafur is mentioned. The economy, especially the banks, is a big position (he favors taxing transactions and really taxing the greedy bankers) yet nothing is mentioned. On the other hand, teacher pay is mostly at the local level so why have any mention of it?

This selection of topics has components of original research, which is forbidden.

There are two possible selections. #1 is to rewrite it to the level of a featured article or #2 is to get rid of it. Now it is so far from a featured article that any high school senior writing it for history class would get an F. JB50000 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

This would be the WP:SOAP bit that cropped up earlier, methinks. Try not to refer to Dafur as "obscure" in the future, please. To be fair, this article is not "F" material. It's actually one of the best articles on Misplaced Pages, if you look at it from a neutral perspective. We must be careful not to overload this article with recentism, and avoid using POV terms like "Obamacare" and "greedy bankers". -- Scjessey (talk) 12:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, agree. Don't call it Obamacare. Don't paint Obama with the Harry Reid/Nancy Pelosi brush. Obama originally wanted a universal plan. He said he thought the plan in the U.K. had failed because it included a private option. Doctors and hospital administrators agreed with the original universal plan. It works like Medicare and everybody is covered. Harry Reid has been riding on private jets paid for by health insurance companies for years. Obama has not. He has his own jet of late.Malke2010 14:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you trying to make some sort of point with that comment? And when did Obama say that UK and Canadian health care had "failed"? And why are you soap boxing your dislike of Harry Reid on this talk page? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

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