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This article was nominated for deletion on 15 February 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Summary of this FAQ A large number of these questions are relating to the term creation myth, its meaning and its proper usage in this article. Creation myth is a formal and proper term used by a wide range of academics and scholars (religious and secular) to define a supernatural account of how life, Earth and everything in general came into existence. This term does not imply falsehood unlike the way that the informal use of the word myth can. Misplaced Pages:WTA#Myth and Legend clearly states that myth in its informal sense should not be used but also clearly states that we should treat all faiths and beliefs the same (e.g. Not referring to a Christian belief on the one hand and a Hindu myth on the other). Thus all faiths' creation myths are referred to as such in their respective articles as well. Misplaced Pages:RNPOV states "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." This is also the main thrust of WP:NOT#CENSORED. Q1: What is the definition of creation myth? A1: Creation myth is a widely accepted term that has a precise definition that is "a supernatural story or explanation that describes the beginnings of humanity, earth, life, and the universe (cosmogony), often as a deliberate act by one or more deities." Since there is a consensus among reliable sources on this definition, it is used here for the purpose of accuracy and proper word use. Q2: Why do we use creation myth to describe the subject, even if it might offend readers or conflict with their beliefs? A2: The term creation myth is used for reasons related to scholarship and research, not out of a desire to offend the feelings or beliefs of Misplaced Pages's readers. While some readers, especially those not familiar with the scholarly terminology referenced when using the term creation myth, might take offense at seeing this subject called a creation myth, Misplaced Pages should not be rewritten just so that certain readers will be more comfortable. The goal in writing the article is to be as neutral and dispassionate in describing this subject, but, as with any contentious topic, it is sometimes not possible to accommodate everyone's feelings while writing a neutral, accurate, verifiable, and sourced-based reference work. Further information: WP:RNPOV Q3: Isn't calling this a creation myth the same thing as calling it a fairy tale, since that is one of the informal definitions for the word myth? A3: No. The term creation myth is a coherent term in its own right that should not be parsed into separate words. The term has a unique meaning different from the informal definitions of the word myth. Just as an electoral college is not an institute of higher learning even though it contains the word college, a creation myth is not necessarily a fairy tale even though it contains the word myth. Formally defined terms provide unambiguous meaning that aid in the presentation of a more accurate and scholarly encyclopedic article. Further information: WP:WTA § Myth and Legend Q4: Does this article say or imply that Genesis is not literally true? And if so, is that neutral? A4: The viewpoint that Genesis is literally true is held by only a tiny minority of sources. Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy does not say that articles must "give equal validity" to such views (see WP:GEVAL). In writing this article it also becomes necessary to proceed with some implicit assumptions that many readers are bound to find controversial (see WP:MNA). Q5: Why does the article name have "narrative" rather than "myth"? A5: This has been discussed several times, and there has not been sufficient consensus to change the name of the article. See also Creation Myth Creationism Bible References http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/creation+myth http://www.thefreedictionary.com/creation+myth http://www.stenudd.com/myth/mythlogics2.htm http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O69-Creation.html http://school.discoveryeducation.com/lessonplans/programs/bookofgenesis/

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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

WP:RFC Request for comments

WP:WTA#Myth_and_Legend says that "'myth' may be used to refer to a false belief or a fictitious story, person or thing"

As may be seen in both "Lede" and "First sentence" subsections above, there is considerable controversy among this article's editors about the insistence on having the word "myth" in the very first sentence of this article.

• Proponent arguments, where present, are largely based on the definition of a Creation myth and their claim that changing "myth" to something like "narrative" or "account" will do disservice to the integrity of the article.
• Opponents argue are that characterizing the Book of Genesis creation accounts in chapters 1 and 2 as a "myth" is an affront to both Judaism and Christianity in that it is part of their Bible which they consider sacred.

Various compromises have been suggested but never accepted through expression of consensus. One of those was to create a footnote to either "narrative" or "account," explaining the formal academic understanding of a Creation myth.

The matter is getting pretty ugly and we need your comment assistance─quickly, please. Thank you. Afaprof01 (talk) 02:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

There is not considerable controversy. In the previous section there is plenty of support and a clear rationale for the use of creation myth in terms of policy, guidelines (the first sentence makes it clear we're talking about a religious topic) and reliable sources, and then there are a few editors who just don't like the term. Starting an RFC because you don't like Misplaced Pages's polices and relevant reliable sources is nothing short of woeful. Ben (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Woeful indeed. The case for using creation myth is very clear and supported by precedent, academic and technical. Other very long standing[REDACTED] articles (the creation myth article itself), a google test, a review of sources (encyclopedic, academic and theological) while the case against it is no more than "those words offend me". WP:WTA#Myth and Legend states "In less formal contexts, it may be used to refer to a false belief or a fictitious story, person or thing." the operative words being "In less formal contexts" which this article does not do. The example from WTA of "less formal contexts" is "For instance, avoid using the word to refer to propaganda or to mean something that is commonly believed but untrue." None of which this article does. It simply references another article which very formally defines the term and the context in which it is used. Additionally you'll see that Creation Myth is a widely accepted term that has an actual definition. When one googles Define "Creation Narrative" there were no definitions or specific articles regarding the concept of "Creation Narrative" and a handful of the hits that came back on the first page specifically defined the term Creation Myth and used the words "Creation Narrative" in the discussion of the definition or encyclopedic article (not wiki) on Creation Myth. The precident and amount of support for using creation myth is HUGE. We use creation myth because it is the real and academically accepted term to describe different belief system's versions of how the world was created. Nefariousski (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with using "creation myth" in the first sentence, as per the way these things are normally done here on Misplaced Pages. Dayewalker (talk) 06:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Some days ago I made this edit in an attempt to compromise between the two camps and to strike a balance per WP:JARGON. For what its worth, I don't think that the fact that some people misunderstand or even find certain technical terms offensive is any sort of argument against using those words, as long as our usage is in line with the correct academic usage of such words. Gabbe (talk) 11:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Changing a formal, technical term to a made up term to placate those whom are offended by the formal and correct term isn't the right way to go. I think the best way to keep the integrity of the intro and to calm those who dislike it would be to add a sentance or two explaining exactly what is the formal meaning of creation myth and to clarify context / intent of using the proper term. I'd like to also note that this is the same compromise that was agreed upon when the actual creation myth article was created and that article has been fairly stable for quite some time now.Nefariousski (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the arguments above that there is no due cause to remove the term "creation myth", however its replacement with the word "narrative" wouldn't be inaccurate. What I strongly disagree with however would be the replacement originally suggested by PiCo in which it would be described as a "sacred narrative". This would clearly be an inclusion of POV. Some people think the story is sacred and others do not. Misplaced Pages shouldn't advocate particular people's opinions.Chhe (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• WP:RNPOV really leaves no room to replace the term Myth in this article. If you want to challenge that policy, fine, but do it there. WP:POV is mandatory for all articles in its entirety. There will be no small 'revolution' here to serve as a beachhead. This has come up 100,000,000 times at Talk:Creation myth, and as you'll notice, that page is still exactly where it's always been. It would appear that at this point all possible arguments have been exhausted and are beginning to loop back on themselves (though they all boil down to "throw the believers a bone, won't it be nice?"). --King Öomie 21:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

LOL I can just picture King George III shrilly shrieking "There vill BE no small 'revolution' here...!" Uh, if something is manifestly and grossly unjust, and attitudes like yours are what are thrust in our faces, then of course many people who see this will rebel - it's called human nature. (Though you might have known something about that) When will you wake up and notice that self-described "Atheist" editors haven't accomplished anything, or persuaded anyone of their correctness, by getting their POV enshrined as "NPOV" on wikipedia; it's all been in vain - five years later, the issue is still just as strong as it was five years ago, as it probably will be five years from now, too. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, except no. This is not the proper place to discuss changing WP:NPOV to fit your need for religious vindication. WT:NPOV is. But feel free to compare me to more unsavory historical figures, Hitler. You ARE aware you're comparing the oppressed masses under a tyrant to volunteers on a privately-owned web site, right? --King Öomie 22:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and also. The tendency for logical arguments to... bounce off the heads of the religiously-motivated isn't a failing of the atheists. --King Öomie 22:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It's true that I do fail to see any logic in your arguments. If NPOV policy across[REDACTED] is that we do not endorse an offensive POV, but rather describe and attribute all POVs neutrally, how is it "logical" for the controversial subject of Genesis to be a magic exception to that? All I have really seen are illogical appeals to emotion from editors who describe themselves as atheist, but that are becoming difficult for many other editors to follow who don't share your perspective. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

If you're being serious about Genesis being an exception to the rule, then you're letting your personal bias cloud your judgement. You don't care about WP:RNPOV. You're offended, goddamnit, and something must be done about it.

The comparison to removing 'SWP' or 'PBUH' or whatever it was from instances of Muhammad in islamic articles is QUITE apt, despite your assertion (at least, I think that was you). Muslims find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to lay his name bare like that, without the honorific. Every week or so someone cries out on Talk:Muhammad/Images, demanding, for the sake of decency, that the images be removed. "What will it hurt?" they ask. "Please! You offend so many, and for what?" they plead. "You will not be safe until they're gone", they threaten (and I'm not joking). Pretty much your arguments (except the death threat). Creation Myth is the accepted, scholarly term, and thus it will be used. That's exactly how simple it is. --King Öomie 22:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Creation Myth is a term accepted by SOME scholars. Many others have specifically rejected its application to Genesis. There has been no grand unanimity-imposing council, where all scholars had to accept this, and all those who have rejected it were branded as "heretics". So explain to me one more time please, how exactly is it "logical" to pretend these scholars don't exist, and for us to go out of our way to use an inflammatory term, when a more neutral one would convey the same ostensible meaning? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

They are a tiny minority, and I don't really care what the think. In the same way that I don't care about the .0001% of scientists to advocate biblical literalism. --King Öomie 22:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, I care more about what a published RS by a prominent theologian thinks, than I care about what you think - after all, you are just a[REDACTED] editor. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Bullshit. I've given sources above. And not just sources that use the term, they're a dime a dozen. I have provided a source that explicitly tells us that the term is mainstream. The problem here is that you care more about what you think than what reliable sources say. You accuse others of POV pushing, but it has become blatantly obvious that it's you that is POV pushing. Ben (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

And I've provided prominent theologians who explicitly disagree with your sources. The problem is that you are asserting some sort of magic priority for your sources and your school of thought, and refusing to acknowledge that other significant schools of thought even exist. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

"4 out of 5 dentists agree that sugar-free gum is the way to go" now translates to "There is NO consensus that sugar-free gum doesn't infringe on the human rights of hypoglycemic individuals, so that's the view we should present" --King Öomie 02:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Why would we use the word myth when the word story is much more used and less contentious? Most theologians use 'creation story' when writing for a non-technical audience (as we are). Myth is explicitly listed as a word to avoid. DJ Clayworth (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Because "Creation Story" also fails the Google Test which tells me that it is in fact much LESS often used than Creation Myth as a stand alone term. I found zero hits on the formal definition of the term "Creation Story" not to mention an decidedly Judeo-Christian slant on all the articles that did pop up in the first few pages while Creation Myth Returned a solid dozen definitions in the first few pages, academic articles, and no faith skewing since it is a faith neutral term. Nefariousski (talk) 23:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

DJ, I would suggest reading the above thread and Talk:Creation myth. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

When I tried Google "creation myth" got 303,000 hits and "creation story" 391,000, including some Hindu hits on the first page. Which Google were you trying? The Google test is not about definitions, it's about usage. And what precisely is your objection to a 'Judeo-Christian slant' when talking about Genesis? DJ Clayworth (talk) 23:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

DJ, We're talking about a formal term, not common usage. I googled Define "Creation Myth" in my test to see how often it is used as the formal term for what we're talking about here. If you do the same test against any other variant (Narrative, Story etc...) you'll find that none of them are, as a term considered the formal definition of a religious or supernatural account of how it all began. Not to mention if you type "Creation Myth" in google search and don't hit anything the drop down that shows the most popular searches tries to finish the term out with the following: Stories, Ideas, Greek, Similarities, of Buddhism, Definition, Of Egypt, of Hinduism, Lesson Plan. If you do the same test with "Creation Story" you get: Genesis, for kids, coloring pages, of hinduism, activities, bible, in genesis, for preschoolers, of buddhism, pictures. Which is decidely more slanted towards Judeo-Christian accounts.

Now let's execute both searches. Creation Myth comes up with the following article on world creation myths, A listing of world creation myths, another, Aztec Creation Myth, an analysis of various creation myths, Egyptian Creation Myths etc... you get the picture. Do the same with "Creation Story" and the first link The summary of the bible Story of Creation, 4 more christian websites, an article titled Hebrew/Christian Creation Myth etc... Looking at "related Searches" we find, "Creation Story old testament", "Creation Myth story", "Creation Bible Story", "Genesis Creation Story", "Adam and Eve Creation Story"

My objective to Judeo Christian slant is seen in WP:WTA#Myth and Legend which specifically states that we should avoid calling one faiths account a Myth and another's a Narrrative or a story or any other term. Additionally it's pretty clear that as a stand alone term Creation Myth actually exists and means something and has strong precedence here on Wiki and everywhere else while "Creation Narrative" and "Creation Story" alone and without context mean nothing as stand alone terms (hence their lack of any definitions as stand alone terms). Not to mention WP:NPOV and WP:RNPOV dictate that we don't slant any articles towards any particular belief regardless of their content. I know it's hard for some editors to be objective when you have faith in a belief but that's what's required in this case. Nefariousski (talk) 01:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I checked the results of '"creation story" and about 1 in 10 were kids sites. Even if we exclude them, that still means there are more hits for creation story than creation myth. I don't see why finding more definitions makes a difference - maybe creation myth is a term that needs defining (because it's technical) and creation story doesn't.

I agree with your point about equal treatment for faiths, but that doesn't mean we should violate policy equally for all faiths. Myth is still a term to be avoided, according to policy, and I see no evidence that pairing it with another word somehow makes it less so. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Please add WP:NPOV to the above list of recommended reading. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course the account of creation in Genesis 1 is a "myth" in a technical sense. And Roman Catholicism is a "cult" in a technical sense too. But outside of technical discussions, using terms like "myth" and "cult" convey emotionally charged and somewhat misleading ideas to lay audiences. Why not simply use the phrase "creation story" in the lead and then include a fuller discussion of the appropriateness of the word "myth" in the body? "Story" is fully capable of indicating a non-literal narrative, but it lacks the connotation of "bull-crap" that "myth" often carries in the popular imagination. Eugeneacurry (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

My mum used to yell at me if I told "stories" and so I disagree with your assessment of the connotation of the words. Theory has negative connotations too, you know, but I don't see science articles worrying about this. In the technical sense, to use your words, theory is correct. Furthermore, your suggestion seems to fall foul of policy (WP:RNPOV). Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I checked WP:RNPOV, you seem to be right.Eugeneacurry (talk) 08:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Debate Déjà vu

This is in essence a Déjà vu and a repeat/replay of the debate about the use of the word "myth" within various Misplaced Pages articles, which has taken place elsewhere, and usually takes place around Easter every year on the Good Friday or Crucifixion of Jesus pages. Here is a link: Talk:Good_Friday#RfC_on_crucifixion_as_part_of_Christian_mythology_in_Good_Friday_article

There is clear precedent that the words "myth" and "mythology" are NOT to be used within religious articles in Misplaced Pages for that would render an opinion about the religion, making it POV. There is absolutely no point in pitting non-believing scientists against believing priests on this talk page for the debate will never end. Those interested in debates of that type should select a suitable bar/pub and continue the discussions there: Misplaced Pages is no place for it. The only way is to just say that: Book A on topic B says C. This debate is a waste of time and must end based on the precedents in Misplaced Pages. History2007 (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no such precedent, and if there was on a single article talk page it would be in violation of our NPOV policy. Ben (talk) 02:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

THe problem at hand is "myth" vs the proper noun "Creation Myth". They don't mean the same thing. Creation Myth does not equal myth they have two very different definitions. Creation Myth is a widely accepted formal term that does not carry any of the negative connotations in the definition of "myth". Those against using Creation Myth base their arguements solely on appeals to sensitivity around the definition of "myth". This is as silly as saying the word assassinate is offensive because it contains the word "ass" twice. The fact that there is any debate at all on using the widely accepted and formal term Creation Myth in favor of replacing it with a non formal combination of words that as a distinct term mean absolutely nothing and have no unique definition in the name of preventing offence blows my mind. The concensus out in the real world among scholars and academia regarding the use of Creation Myth is so clear as to be undebateable. Nefariousski (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You can scream that it's "undebateable" til you're blue in the face, but it fails to account for all of the debate... not just here, but in the sources... not just now, but ongoing for centuries and unlikely to be resolved by mere chutzpah or bald assertion.. "Undebateable" my aunt fanny. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

There's no debate in the sources. All of your sources criticize the use of the word "myth" which is distinctly different from a Creation Myth You can't pick apart the parts of a term and define them independently. The Electoral College is not an institute of higher learning because it contains the word college. Words have meaning and context, all of your arguements and "sources" are for the wrong context and essentially the wrong word. Creation Myth as a proper noun has to be considered as if it was one word with a unique meaning that is destroyed if either of it's component words are changed. Definitions about America or States are wildly different than the definition of United States of America. Nefariousski (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Arguments with Til are likely to go in circles, so I'd save your keyboard. We have presented sources and cited policy in favour of the term creation myth, and the article is locked for three days. I suggest we stop taking baited comments like Til's and just address any relevant arguments, assuming they appear. If nothing relevant has been presented in three days then I think it's safe to assume nothing will, and we can archive this. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Rather than just making this an either/or debate

Rather than just making this an either/or debate, at this point, a third way should be looked at. Also note that Misplaced Pages:Explain jargon says, as its lead, "Words and phrases used as jargon by any profession or group should usually be avoided or explained." Consider the likes of this this:

04:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Notes

1. ^ While the term myth is often used colloquially to refer to "a false story", this article uses the term "creation myth" in the formal, academic meaning of "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form."

I'm not against compromise and in fact I like your suggestion for the most part. I'd prefer to just add an explanation of the exact definition and context of the term Creation Myth and not muddy the waters with a secondary term. WP:WTA#Myth and Legend is pretty clear that we shouldn't call one faith's account a Creation Myth whilst giving another faith's account a term to use like "Creation Narrative" not to mention the slippery slope towards wp:RNPOV when concessions seem to be given to one faith over others. The battle over the term Creation Myth has already been extensively fought on the Creation Myth page. I don't understand why we can't just take their solution (A detailed definition of Creation Myth so it's not confused with the informal use of the word "myth") and leave it at that. If it's good enough for the main page of Creation Myths there's no reason it's not good enough for one of the many faith specific pages regarding Creation Myth. Nefariousski (talk) 05:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not opposed to a footnote (though I dislike them being used this way), but I am opposed to Misplaced Pages trying to introduce new terminology and proscribe usage of it in articles. Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• To some people Creation according to Genesis is a specific page related to the "main" page Creation myth, but to other people it is a specific page related to the "main" page of Bible, or Genesis, etc. Neither view is the one "right" view. What is more, readers of the "Creation myth" page are all the more likly to know already (or re-learn) this formal jargon of comparative religon, etc.
• A "detailed definition" of Creation myth unmuddies only if it is read (and not too long to overwelm the sentence it is in). "Creation narrative" is a perfectly clear gloss (short definition) that can be supplemented with detail in either a note or in the next sentence.
• Since the term "Creation myth" will not be understood in the formal meaning by many people (and be seen as POV by them, even if it is not according to the formal meaning), I would advocate the same solution for articles on any faith's account of Creation; there is not any unfair advovation of a faith or specific faiths over others. 06:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That is silly. We can't avoid terms like that. The term theory has a similar problem, yet is unquestioningly used in scientific articles regardless. Now, if you're worried about people seeing us as non-neutral since we use the term myth, what about the other side of the coin? People who see us as avoiding the term? Are they immune from detecting neutrality in the same way? In cases like this, we must fall back on reliable sources. In this case, myth has been demonstrated to be mainstream term, and avoiding it falls foul of WP:NPOV, in particular, WP:RNPOV. Attach a footnote if you think it really will help (though I would argue clicking a more prominent wikilink creation myth would be easier for the reader, and this use may fall foul of our "no disclaimer" policies). Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

This would not avoid the term "Creation myth."

This would not introduce new terminology, as "creation narrative" is a description. So it is also not ment be used over-and-over to replace of "Creation myth" throughout the article. Likewise would also work to use a other descriptions, such as "account of Creation."

Creation myth has not been demonstrated to be mainstream term. It may be a mainstream term among religious scholars, but it is still the jargon thereof, and not a mainstream term/meaning for Misplaced Pages readers. 09:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Children's books, general references, etc, use the term without issue. It is a mainstream term. Just like the term theory. Ben (talk) 09:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

So, on the last point, rather than defer to a community of experts on a topic that we're writing an article about in an encyclopaedia, we should adopt some amorphous "mainstream" terminology instead? That doesn't seem particularly clever. When I consult a reference work to learn something, I expect it to conform to the relevant conventions for that topic. If there are jargon issues that need dealing with, I'm happy to follow footnotes (or even hyperlinks to articles that explain the jargon), but I'd be nonplussed if different terminology was used instead. Especially if said terminology was not supported by hyperlinked articles in the same encyclopaedia. Among other things, using "myth" instead of "narrative" (which I, personally, interpret as "subjective quasi-fiction") provides an excellent learning opportunity for readers on the formal use of language by scholars. To do otherwise is akin to (shudder) "political correctness gone mad". --PLUMBAGO 10:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Underhanded tactics

RfC isn't a numbers game, Afaprof01. Calling in a bunch of buddies who offer the same easily refutable arguments only makes it look like POV pushing. Cheers, Ben (talk) 07:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh look, they even have a term for it: Misplaced Pages:CANVASS#Votestacking. Ben (talk) 07:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It is NOT canvassing, unless he tells people which way to vote. He did not say anything to that effect, hence no canvassing has taken place. History2007 (talk) 08:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I haven't been told which way to vote and I think it was quite thoughtful to get my opinion on the debate. As it happens I think on balance that "myth" or "creation myth" is ok and the right term to use. I think the mistake is to assume that "myth" is a bad thing - implying it's a fairytale or something. Instead we need to get into the head of those in civilisations long gone who understood the role of myth simply as a way to try and explain or deepen our understanding of an underlying truth or an unfathomable mystery. In this case the mystery of where we came from as humans. Myth can therefore be a beautiful thing if considered in the right way. Empiricism is important but trying to explain every part of what we are as human beings through empiricism alone can leave us unsatisfied. Myth therefore is an attempt to make us make sense or order out of what can seem to be pure disorder or randomness. It would be a mistake to see the creation of the world in 7 days as true. It isn't - it can't ever be true - we are too rational for that. But it's someone's attempt to demonstrate that God was in some way behind this strange event called creation; beyond human comprehension. The greek and roman myths serve a similar purpose. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Again, Ithink what each of us believes is beside the point. This article should summarize the contents of the book, not pass judgment on it. History2007 (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't accuse Afaprof01 of telling people how to vote, I accused him of "an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion (which may be determined, among other ways, from a userpage notice, such as a userbox, or from user categorization), and thus encouraging them to participate in the discussion." --Misplaced Pages:CANVASS#Votestacking Cheers, Ben (talk) 10:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It is clear that there was no canvassing, as the article there states. History2007 (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Uhh, which article says that? The text Ben quoted is directly from WP:CANVASS. You don't have to tell someone "Oh, and vote this way" for it to be canvassing. He went out and tapped the shoulders of people who'd argued here and elsewhere for his side of the argument, and no one else. That's canvassing. --King Öomie 13:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

No, anyone can quote, e.g. the next paragraph says: Posting a friendly notice on users' talk pages in order to inform editors on all "sides" of a debate (e.g., everyone who participated in a previous deletion debate on a given subject) may be appropriate under certain circumstances on a case-by-case basis. And I had participated in similar debates on Good Friday. So it was not canvassing in my case in any case. As was fo rseverla other people who had participated in similar debates. History2007 (talk) 13:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

He only alerted people who'd previously debated AGAINST including the term "creation myth". I don't know how I can be more clear. He did not alert anyone who'd debated FOR using it. This is the definition of vote stacking. --King Öomie 18:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

No he didn't, he didn't alert me! I feel quite hurt. PiCo (talk) 03:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Only alerted ≠ alerted all. Ben (talk) 03:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, he did alert me, only it wasn't by posting on my talk page – he sent me a wik-email.
-Garrett W. {☎ ✍} 23:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight, Afaprof01 did notice me. However, King Öomie is wrong in stating "He only alerted people who'd previously debated AGAINST including the term 'creation myth'" and "He went out and tapped the shoulders of people who'd argued here and elsewhere for his side of the argument, and no one else." I have never taken a position on any talk page or RFC on this issue, or any issue related to Genesis or Creation Myths. Afaprof01 would have little to go on to divine what my position would be. I suspect he noticed me because I have edited several articles about Christian topics. This seems entirely appropriate. I would encourage King Öomie to verify the facts before making such attacks in the future and to consider WP:SORRY. Novaseminary (talk) 05:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Two cents

I have contributed to several of the Creationism articles, and to this specific article over the last couple of years. Here are my two cents. I am not a young earth creationist, I accept that the Earth is 5 billion years old. Nevertheless I object to the unqualified use of the phrase "creation myth". This is a religious text that is regarded as a divine scripture by about 30% of the Earth's population. As such it does not fit into the same category as Enuma Elish and other dead pieces of literature. I do not see why it cannot be called a creation account or creation story. These are neutral terms that can be interpreted as implying fact or fiction by those who wish. The insistence of calling it a "creation myth" seems to me to be a cynical attempt to imply that the story is fiction. Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It need not be unqualified. Suggestions have been made above that a footnote is added so that the use of the term is clear. Furthermore, we already hyperlink to creation myth, so any inquisitive reader can read up on the use of language here (and find out about all of the other, mutually exclusive creation myths that exist). Regarding your alternative suggestions, "account" implies something written by a witness (which even the YECs don't claim; or do they?), while "story" clearly implies fiction to me. Faced with this, and the fact that we're aiming to capture something of a scholarly subject here, we should defer to mainstream expert terminology. That doesn't mean, of course, that we can't qualify with footnotes and hyperlinks to other articles that illuminate things further. Anyway, that's my two cents (which I seem to have spent many times over on this particular topic). --PLUMBAGO 10:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I think what each of us believes is beside the point. This article should summarize the contents of the book, not pass judgment on it. History2007 (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Err, isn't describing it as a "story" passing judgement on it? You might think not, but I do (and vice versa, of course). Hence why I suggested just using default academic language instead of importing "mainstream" (whatever that is) language. I'm well aware that our views (yes, both of us) are beside the point. --PLUMBAGO 13:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Let us just summarize the book without passing any judgment on it. Just say Book X says Y. As to whether Y is correct or not, we shall not judge. History2007 (talk) 13:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Fine, but you persist in interpreting the use of "myth" as passing a very particular judgement when, as is clear from its academic definition, it is not. This use is merely describing the nature of the contents of a particular book, and is distinguishing this (yes, in a dry, academic way) from fiction, biography, etc. Said contents should be described as something, and since this is meant to be an encyclopaedia, I suggest that the scholarly "creation myth" fits the bill (not least because of our need to conform to WP:RS). Among other things, I say this because I do not anticipate any description (short of "the Truth") being acceptable to some readers. Anyway, it looks like agreeing to disagree is how this is going to wind up. --PLUMBAGO 13:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The public does not interpret it as an academic definition, but mostly views it as a term which means "untrue". Hence it is a label, assigned by one group. Best solution: No label, no judgment. History2007 (talk) 13:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That's irrelevant even with citations. Policy is clear, we go with the academic term. If you disagree with that policy, argue against it THERE. Violating it here is just that- a violation of policy (and possibly WP:POINT). --King Öomie 14:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Policy does not say that at all, clearly or otherwise. In fact it says the opposite, requiring the lede to be written in non-technical language and discouraging the use of the word myth in cases where its meaning might be taken to be the informal one. Story, account and narrative are all much better terms here. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:RNPOV, the policy, trumps MOS:INTRO, the style guideline. The one that specifically points out that it will have exceptions. WP:NPOV is not optional. --King Öomie 13:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Please explain how "Creation according to Genesis is the account of the creation of the world and of the first man and woman as found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible." violates NPOV. --agr (talk) 14:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. Misplaced Pages articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader. Conversely, editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." -WP:RNPOV The bolded section represents the reason this argument is taking place ("Our religious sensibilities are offended, think of the children"), and its refutation. --King Öomie 15:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

No one is saying the term "creation myth" should be excluded from the article. However nothing in the NPOV policy you quote says technical terms must be used in the first sentence of an article, while the LEDE guideline says they shouldn't. And as I've pointed out previously, there is scholarly debate over whether Genesis contains one creation myth or two, so the current version is inaccurate as well. --agr (talk) 15:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

People are saying that, and those that do are rightly referred to the NPOV policy. I disagree with your assessment of creation myth as a technical term. I think it's fine for this encyclopedia - at about the same level as the term theory, for instance. That the term is so fundamental and descriptive of this article is why I think we should use it straight up. That is, if I stumble across an article about a creation myth, I simply want to know that in the first sentence. In general, if I stumble across an article Y that is a representative of X, I want to know that straight away. Is this article about a book? A mathematician? etc. As far as the debate you're alluding to, you realise the version you quoted suffers from the same problem, right? Ben (talk) 15:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right that some editor does want the term "creation myth" excluded entirely, but my understanding is that the current argument is about the introductory sentence. I poked around the last 500 versions of the article and haven't found one where the term "creation myth" did not occur somewhere. Perhaps a good example is this version , which is the last before the lede was changed to its current form. It says "The Genesis creation story is comparable with other Near Eastern creation myths." It's also in an info box and the see also section. I would support mentioning the term in the intro, perhaps after the textual summary, say, "Scholars debate whether the story consist of one creation myth or two." "Theory" has both a technical and non-technical meaning and this can cause problems in a lede. Note that our article evolution does not use the word "theory" until the fourth paragraph of the into and then treats it extremely gingerly. Finally, I would assert: {people who know what a creation myth is} ∩ {people who don't know Genesis contains a creation myth} = Ø. What does "the account of the creation of the world and of the first man and woman as found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible" fail to convey? --agr (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The 'current' argument morphed into the lede discussion, yes, after individuals realized they weren't getting the phrase removed wholesale (though some still fail to grasp this). --King Öomie 17:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I just looked over the discussion page and I don't see that. Maybe it's in the archives somewhere. Perhaps this is a place where we can move forward. Can we at least all agree that the issue now is what the first sentence should say?--agr (talk) 17:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason to change the wording from what it is now. The meaning of "Creation Myth" is self-evident, and per WP:RNPOV, the formal meaning is used. Changing it to something more... sympathetic would be nothing less than pandering. Confused or not, every single person who visits this page and sees "creation myth" knows what it means. (And no, that meaning is not "ATHEIST CRUSADE, RALLY THE TROOPS"). --King Öomie 17:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:AVOID#Myth and legend: "When using myth in a sentence in one of its formal senses, use care to word the sentence to avoid implying that it is being used informally, for instance by establishing the context of sociology, mythology or religion." ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to add, your evolution example is not a good one since that article is not about a theory. It's why I chose the general relativity article as an example a few times - it's about a theory and it's an FA. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Another proposal

Let's be honest, I find the use of footnotes unwieldy. Let's not forsake simplicity and clarity. How about replacing the opening sentence with this (or some variation):

Creation according to Genesis refers to the text found in the opening two chapters of the book of Genesis, the first book of the Hebrew Bible. This text is regarded as a creation myth by scholars,Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). and as a religious account of creation by Christians and Jews.

or alternatively

Creation according to Genesis refers to the text found in the opening two chapters of the book of Genesis, the first book of the Hebrew Bible. This text is regarded as a creation myth by scholars,Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). and has religious significance for Christianity and Judaism.

Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm,

General relativity refers to a culmination of ideas by Albert Einstein. The ideas are considered a scientific theory by scholars, and has scientific significance for people who like to debunk works of science fiction (damn you Phil Plait, damn you!!).

Yeah, I dunno, I think I prefer the current version. Look everyone, we're talking about a creation myth. This fact is indisputable and transcends the scholars (hello polarisation). The creation myth article is highly relevant and worth reading (and improving if you can) given that this article is a representative of that topic. Ben (talk) 11:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

To make this a little more explicit, Misplaced Pages describes what things are according to WP:WEIGHT (another subset of WP:NPOV). As an example, we have general relativity. Another is the evolution article, which does not polarise itself by saying scholars think evolution is blah, it simply explains what evolution is per reliable sources. Nothing less can be expected from this article, and the sensibilities of a few editors do not make the slightest difference to that. Ben (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of this new proposal to remove the suggestion that says that peoples beliefs are wrong by calling it a definate myth. I personally would have been fine with the replacement of the word myth with belief. But ayway I personally will willingly accept this proposal. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

This is a debate that surely will not cease as long as the word "myth" remains. Is it really absolutely necessary? Yes, I know that "creation myth" is a scholarly term and it is not the same as "myth". It is nonetheless always going to be seen as somewhat incendiary to certain people; particularly observant Jews and Christians. On one hand the term "creation myth" can be viewed as linguisticly correct, and therefore has every right to be used. On the other, leaving it in place is certain to provide debate, reverts, edit wars, and perhaps even vandalism ad infinitum. My opinion is that for the greater good of Misplaced Pages in general, the word myth should not be used here.Mk5384 (talk) 09:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Genesis creation account

Creation according to Genesis

Myth/myth moved from User Talk page space

the not mythical Genesis creation myth

Reinstate article's original and title" Creation According to Genesis

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move the page. A personal comment, I'm not sure how to bridge the gap here since I'm not sure either title is appropriate. Maybe something like Genesis and creation or something similar could address the POV issues and still provide a neutral position that both sides could support. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Genesis creation myth → Creation according to Genesis — This is the article's original title. It was changed to its current title after being discussed by only a couple of editors. The old title, unlike the current one, is npov in many people's opinion. It also appears to be the consensus title (See posts above). — 76.253.103.218 (talk) 02:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

To the reviewing admin: please note that opposition has come in the form of replies to what are essentially !votes in this section, and comments in the preceding sections. Cheers, Ben (talk) 02:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

Yes. I support this move. Plus years worth of talk page discussions support this. The current title reflects only a short discussion that lasted only a few days. 76.253.103.218 (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The discussion lasted a week and was listed at WP:RM, which is standard procedure when requesting a potentially controversial move. Gabbe (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, I don't know what you mean by "years worth of talk page discussions". The section Requested move (as a way to resolve every reasonable concern) seems to be the first time that moving the article to "Genesis creation myth" has been mulled. Regardless, consensus can change. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I support this move. --Templeknight (talk) 22:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Please, remember that polling is not a substitute for discussion. If you want to argue in favour of changing the title, that's alright. But this isn't the place to just say "yes" or "no". Gabbe (talk) 22:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I support the return move back to Creation according to Genesis. Debating if, when, where and how "creation myth" goes in the article leaves room for options, explanations, opposing views. Placing it in the title locks it in, in some ways virtually closing debate. Further, as is, "creation myth" occupies two-thirds of the title. It is a creation account-narrative that still is revered by huge numbers of living people. Two (maybe three) major world Abrahamic religions' theologies have strong foundations in the Genesis theology. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

What's necessarily wrong with "closing debate"? Per WP:MNA, we are sometimes forced to opt for a path in writing articles that's bound be controversial and contentious. Furthermore, the fact that the present day followers of the Genesis creation myth are more numerous than the present day followers of the Ancient Egyptian creation myths is not an argument in favour of treating the two differently. WP:RNPOV says that all religions should be treated the same. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Creation According to Genesis is and has been the correct title. Grantmidnight (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you explicate why you think that "Genesis creation myth" is an incorrect title? Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

It is ridiculous that the title that is presently on the article negates the subject of the article. There can be points of view presented within the article, based on reliable sources, that the validity is highly in question. That would include the academic sources that use most prominently the term "myth" in connection with the story presented in Genesis. But nowhere in Genesis itself is there any indication that anything but a literal understanding of its material is intended. In the entire narration of the book of Genesis there is not one indication that a figurative or a metaphorical interpretation is expected.

Scientific evidence may cast an overwhelming amount of doubt on the veracity of the book, but the place for that doubt should not be in the title. The title should describe the subject of the article. I don't think the subject of this article is the "falseness" of the narrative contained in Genesis, or at least I hope that is not the subject of the article. If that is the subject of this article, then this article needs a major rewrite. Bus stop (talk) 23:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

How is that relevant? Nowhere in Moby Dick is there "any indication that anything but a literal understanding of its material is intended", but we don't have to be vague over whether Moby Dick is literally true or not. Gabbe (talk) 23:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is. Here is the title: Moby-Dick. Bus stop (talk) 23:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Your claim is that In the entire narration of the book of Genesis there is not one indication that a figurative or a metaphorical interpretation is expected. Likewise, nothing in Moby Dick indicates that a figurative or a metaphorical interpretation is expected. Perhaps you'd prefer Greco-Roman mythology, which also doesn't explicitly claim to be figurative or metaphorical?

The point being, the story in Genesis doesn't have to say it's a creation myth to be a creation myth. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My point is that your argument is irrelevant. What's wrong with having the title of a Misplaced Pages article negating its subject? Even if it were true that Genesis lacks "any indication that anything but a literal understanding of its material is intended", so what? That doesn't mean that it would be wrong of us to write this article in a manner that contradicts this view. As per WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, we should write articles in accordance with what reliable sources say, not what the subjects of our articles say. For example, it would be difficult to write an article about Kim Jong-il if we weren't allowed to contradict the subject. The only thing that matters is what academics, experts and scholars say about Genesis.

Regardless, this is a moot point. Talking about the "Genesis creation myth" does not "negate" Genesis in any way. Gabbe (talk) 23:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I completely concur with Bus stop's polemic comments. They represent the higher caliber of rational in-depth thinking and argument one would expect among well-read, scholarly-minded editors (which I hope we all are). ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Hope away, but you know otherwise. One could be forgiven for associating the word ignorance, and possibly willful, to one side of this debate. This is an encyclopedia folks, please at least act like that's what you're trying to build. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

"Mythology" is used in a title when there is no logical alternative. In the case of Genesis, there is not only a logical alternative, but it is a contrivance to title an article this way: "Genesis creation myth." Bus stop (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

... what? "Logical alternative"? This statement makes no sense. How is it a contrivance when we have Māori creation myth, Greek mythology, Aztec mythology, Jewish mythology, Christian mythology, etc. Perhaps you'd prefer we merge this article into Jewish mythology, then? — The Hand That Feeds You: 02:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I support this move. The article is about the account of creation in the book of Genesis. The word "account" is NPOV. The word "myth" is not. Words have connotations as well as denotations. We don't go around labeling individuals who were born out of wedlock as "bastards", even though the word is technically correct, because the word has a highly pejorative connotation, and everyone knows it. To have that in the title is highly POV and should not be allowed.

Since there are some who will argue that "account" is POV as well (and you know who you are), I'm not suggesting that it be used in the title either. But Creation according to Genesis is completely NPOV to everyone. You can't get more NPOV than that. - - Lisa (talk - contribs) 00:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, we agree for once!! Yeah! ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

is not a lack of viewpoint, but is rather a specific, editorially neutral, point of view.--WP:NPOV. We use the terminology used in reliable sources on the topic, not sanitize (read: bias) the topic. It's as simple as that. Please read the policy you're quoting from, ok? Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Lisa: Neutrality (per WP:RNPOV) means treating all religions the same. Treating one religious document differently from others is not neutral. As such, calling this article "Creation according to Genesis", while simultaneously not opposing the article title Sumerian creation myth, is not neutral. Consistency is neutral, inconsistency is not. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Please re-read─as openmindedly as possible─User:Bus stop's logic in the above comments. I don't know this user and her/his recent comments are my first introduction. There is a lot of logic and rationale to the appeals. No one has shown the courtesy or dignity to debate this user's points maturely. It seems to me that when someone tries really hard to get us back to points of practical logic, they might as well blow into the wind. I'm not calling for agreement with his rationale, but for rational, logical, polite, intelligent rebuttal, partial agreement, or consensus. We have become totally fixated on "myth" for so long that we cannot see the forest for the trees.

The insistence on taking up 2/3 of the title with "creation myth" strongly implies what the article is about, and "Genesis" becomes almost an afterthought. It seems to me that "we" editors have illustrated that even among sophisticated folks (like us), there is not general agreement or understanding of the definition of "creation myth." I read an article today that says it conjures up images of the Zû-Bird and Myth-Legends of "pagans manipulating their nature deities by their magical words and mimetic ritual of the creation myth." Another author says that despite similarity in literary form and in rudimentary content, the biblical account radically differs from the creation myths of the ancient Near East in its theological stance. The creation myths are stories about numerous gods and goddesses personifying cosmic spaces or forces in nature. They are nature deities.

We have put form over substance. We can smugly say people should just look it up in a dictionary, but they shouldn't have to. If it is a word that is not in our vocabulary, it is logical to stop and look it up. But both words─"creation" and "myth"─are very much in our English vocabulary (and this is English Misplaced Pages). Seriously, how many people would logically think that when the two words are put together, they have a unique meaning that neither of them has separately? And if they do look up "creation myth," they will immediately be confronted with personalities combining divine spirit and cosmic matter in an eternal coexistence. Thus the sun was a god and the moon was a god. Even Akhenaten, the so-called first monotheist, never conceived of Aten, the sun god, any differently. He distinguished himself by selecting only one force of nature and, of course, never could find a following. After reading such as that, what predisposition can we assume our reader might have about creation according to Genesis, something that whether it's literal or figurative or even fictional has become a major part of the theological foundation of three world religions: the Abrahamic religions.

Please let's consider (1) Creation according to Genesis; and (2) delay mention of "creation myth" to paragraph 2 where we fully explain what we mean by "creation myth"─taking all ambiguity out of it. To use something this volitile before we get a chance to disambiguate it seems really foolish to me. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Bus stop's comments have been thoroughly debunked, not just in this section but in earlier sections too. Your vocabulary argument has been debunked more times than I can count now, a quick search for the term theory throughout this talk page is likely to give quite a few such debunkings. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Afaprof01: If the problem with Genesis creation myth is that "creation myth takes up 2/3 of the title" and that "Genesis becomes almost an afterthought", then Creation according to Genesis would make "Genesis" only one quarter of the title. That's even more of an "afterthought". Also, I don't see why the word "creation myth" should be limited to describing non-monotheistic creation myths. And lastly, I think that most people can understand that when you put two words together you might get a new word, possibly with a different meaning. Few English speakers will think that "to understand something" means to be standing beneath something. However, I fully support you when you say that we should explain what "creation myth" means in this article. But that does not necessitate moving the article. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is not in numbers: Just to summarise: the above comments generally rely on gross misunderstandings WP:NPOV, false claims on behalf of WP:NPOV, or appeals to emotion. Reliable sources have been quoted several times, including reliable sources on what is considered mainstream, and policy has been cited faithfully, all showing support for the status quo. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I support this move. I did not see any discussion at all on the article renaming. One editor just did it without discussion, as far as I recall. 01:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes. I see the 3-4 day discussion section. It was not obviously titled as an article rename... maybe why I don't recall it. 01:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, the debate was open for a week (per WP:RM), and the section was titled Requested move (as a way to resolve every reasonable concern). Is your argument that we should move the article back because the move request was improperly conducted? Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I support this move. It seems certain editors are now developing a warped or slippery definition of the word "consensus". POV Litmus tests should not apply in determining whose views qualify as part of "consensus". Furthermore, there are many decades worth of published sources of many theologians objecting to any definition of "myth" being applied specifically to Genesis. I realize that some editors here subscribe to Bultmann - who some decades ago proposed expanding the conventional academic definition of "myth" to include the Hebrew Bible, even while openly conceding the pejorative use of the term. But not all theologians have ever agreed with Bultmann on this by any means. The POV of these[REDACTED] editors - partial and passionate as it is - cannot trump all those published sources who explicitly disagree that it is a myth. Rather according to NPOV policy we must use neutral or compromise terms, and then use the article to explain exactly who calls it a myth, who does not ,and why, without endorsing either party. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Consensus title? Hardly. "only a couple of editors" have requested changing this back. I have a counter proposal: merge this article into Jewish mythology, which is what it actually is. — The Hand That Feeds You: 02:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Til Eulenspiegel: Would you care to provide the names of some of these "many theologians" here? Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

What - again? Okay, I will start a new section below Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

All of those sources seem to deal with the term "myth" rather than "creation myth" per se. Apart from that, a couple of the sources are more almost a hundred years old (hardly reflecting recent scholarship). A number of them reject the term "myth" because that would mean "comparing Christianity with other religions", which is not a valid argument on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages's neutrality policies say that we can't treat one religion differently from another. Several sources explicitly say that the term "myth" is common in biblical scholarship, and some of the sources seem to attack the term "myth" based on their belief in Genesis being literally true — a tiny minority viewpoint Misplaced Pages shouldn't be catering to. Scholars might have several reasons to object to the term "myth", but not all those reasons are valid arguments on Misplaced Pages. We can't base our choice of title on sources that base their arguments on principles that stand in contrast with WP:NPOV. Gabbe (talk) 13:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

And once again, a significant POV of many theologians is sumamrily brushed aside and overruled by an authoritative-sounding[REDACTED] editor for a variety of specious reasons. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I didn't mean be brusque, or to "brush aside or overrule" that list, and I'm sorry if it came out that way. Its an interesting and seemingly relevant list and I intend to have a more detailed look and a lengthier commentary on it when I get the time. Gabbe (talk) 14:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Scholarly term should be used. Consistent with Creation myth and Chinese creation myth. THF (talk) 04:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Scholarly term should be used. Consistent with Creation myth and Chinese creation myth. BTW "Creation according to Genesis" says that Creation is factual and that Genesis reports it. Such a claim is unacceptable as a judgment made by Misplaced Pages. CUSH 04:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ironically, that is the exact semantic opposite of what "according to" means in English. The purpose of "according to" is to ascribe the notion to where it originates, NOT to endorse it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Til. Cush's statement is nonsensical. The Book of Genesis deserves the right to stand on its own as an opinion (surely its "age" and longevity deserves that). That's what this article should present -- "according" to Genesis. Underneath (that is, in the body of the article) comes our modern beliefs as to whether or not Genesis' "opinion" stands or falls. That is scholarly, and that's what we need here on Misplaced Pages. Cheers, SAE (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Genesis is a primary source, and as such should only be used with care. "Genesis says so" can't really be invoked in a debate like this. That is, we can't use Genesis alone as a base for our decision on whether to title this article "Genesis creation myth" or not. We need to look at what reliable secondary sources say on the topic. Gabbe (talk) 14:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You misunderstand this article. Genesis as a primary source was never used as a "reliable" source: It is the source being anaylzed! Therefore, "Creation according to Genesis." That's the purpose of this article from the beginning. Changing the title (as has been done) is completely nonsensical. That's like having an article analyzing "Coke's view on softdrink's" (in order to analyze the company's view) and having someone later change the title to, "Coke's misinformation on soft-drinks." (in other words, make one half of the argument's conclusion of the article as the title) The debate should be in the body of the article, and not the title. As it is, it is pov. SAE (talk) 14:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Scholarly and mainstream term (supported by mainstream references likes Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible and Marcus Borg's note about it actually being mainstream) should be used. This is also in line with WP:NPOV (in particular WP:RNPOV) and WP:WTA#Myth_and_legend and the various X creation myth articles this encyclopaedia has already established (for a list of some, see the above section). Cheers, Ben (talk) 10:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I support this move. --Templeknight (talk) 11:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, this is a discussion, not a ballot. And if it were a ballot you would not be permitted to vote twice. Gabbe (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Yes. I Support this move. Some scholarly systems use myth to describe Christianity, but this is fairly recent. Many scholarly systems still do not - it depends on the bias of the editor/publisher. One thing is clear: "myth" still has the definition in every dictionary that it is "an unfounded or false notion." You can argue, however every person reading the word "myth" has this in their mind. That's the tradition use of the word, and that's our cultural use of the word. Until that is completely gone, the word does not work here in this title, or in the opening of the lead. I stand upon[REDACTED] guidelines when I say this (in fact, the word "mythology" is given as an example right in this article): WP:RNPOV. Cheers, SAE (talk) 11:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
  • "Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. Misplaced Pages articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader."

But WP:RNPOV also refers to WP:WTA#Myth and legend, which says that "Myth has a range of formal meanings in different fields. Formal use of the word is commonplace in scholarly works, and Misplaced Pages is no exception." Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

But that does not negate that which I quoted. There is by no means a universal formal sense of myth. It continues to have a meaning of "untrue" and it is used this way in scholarly articles. Last year (and I'm not going to dig them up again) I found quotes from New York Times, and other modern publications that contrast myth and truth. Just because there is a fairly recent push to say that this dichotomy doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it actually doesn't. It does. SAE (talk) 13:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't denied that the word "myth" has both formal and informal meanings. But I don't see why you conclude that the title "Genesis creation myth" must necessarily be an example of the term "myth" being used informally. Gabbe (talk) 14:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I support this move Current title is POV. --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Would you care to explicate why? Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I have done above, but happy to again. Calling something a "myth" is POV if there is a notable body of opinion that disagrees with that word being used to describe it. You may dislike it, but what is correct is not the same as NPOV. You may indeed by right that it's a myth, but as calling it that is to use a tainted word and to be choosing from one of two sides. Slapping on a FAQ that says that a group of scholars who hold that POV agree with that POV is not the Misplaced Pages way, this is not a science textbook. And if other pages have been badly titled, perhaps they should be changed too, so please don't use WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments as you have to the user below this. --Dweller (talk) 13:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

So then your argument is that the term "creation myth" should not be used to describe any religion on Misplaced Pages? Regardless, WP:GEVAL says that we do not have to appease all sides in a debate, but only the sides most prevalent among reliable sources. If a group of scholars promoting one view comprise the majority of reliable sources on the topic, then the debate is settled as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, even though editors here might continue disagree with the sources. Gabbe (talk) 14:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

My using the word "myth", you are explicitly taking the POV that Genesis is inherently false. This title is effectively discrediting creationism as nonsense. Which is fine, if Misplaced Pages was a science journal. But it isn't. There are many (perhaps billions) of people who believe Genesis to be a real factual account, and this article title is an insult to their POV. Masterhomer 07:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• I support a move back to the original title. I see no reason why it was changed. No one can dispute the fact that "Creation according to Genesis" is a completely neutral and un-contentious title. "Genesis creation myth" is objected to as POV by many editors and will continually be challenged as such. This article will be bogged down in endless edit and move warring rather than being contributed to in a constructive way (as it should be, and as it has been for years before this "creation myth" dispute started up last month). Tonicthebrown (talk) 13:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

As I've said above, it's not a neutral title if it means treating Genesis differently from other religious documents. WP:RNPOV says that "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." Gabbe (talk) 13:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank-you Gabbe for supporting reverting this article to its original title. And yes, you did. You said, "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view" - the majority of people writing on Creation according to Genesis today use the term "myth" as a contrast to the word "truth." Therefore we should not use myth in any other way, even (as you wrote), "out of sympathy for a particular point of view." SAE (talk) 13:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I never said that "the majority of people writing on Creation according to Genesis use the term 'myth' as a contrast to the word 'truth.'" Gabbe (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I never claimed you did. Please follow the ("") quotes. SAE (talk) 14:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Neither did I say you claimed I did. Your argument included the following two points:

1. I said "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view"
2. the majority of people writing on Creation according to Genesis today use the term "myth" as a contrast to the word "truth."

For your conclusion (that I support moving this article to "Creation according to Genesis") to be valid it would at least be necessary for me to affirm point #2. And I haven't said that I do. Gabbe (talk) 14:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I assume #2 as valid based on evidence, and therefore have inferred your agreement to revert to the original title. SAE (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• If this article is renamed, I insist that all other articles where religious isues are called myth are renamed as well. Including all articles about ancient gods of the Greek, Egyptians, Hindus etc etc . We do not endorse one religion over another. CUSH 18:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Why is this even being discussed? The RM on this one was only closed a couple days ago. I oppose soly on the basis that revisiting RMs so quickly after they close sets a bad precedence. What new information could possibly be presented to show that things have changed or that the previous RM was conducted improperly? Baring either, I see no reason to overturn the conclusion of the previous RM. --Labattblueboy (talk) 20:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Please read . There it says, "sometimes a requested move is filed in response to a recent move from a long existing name." This is exactly the case here. Therefore your opposition here is not valid and should be ignored in the admin seeking consensus. SAE (talk) 20:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That part quite clearly does not refer to moves that are the result of a formal requested move. And you can leave it to the closing admin to decide whose comments should be ignored. Ucucha 04:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The request spent a full week in a formal requested move, permitting editors no shortage of time to comment. The conclusion was ultimately to move and was apparently convincing enough that the supervising admin. did not require a relisting to determine consensus. I don't see any indication that WP:RMCI was not followed (try reading the entire policy in context before quoting bits and pieces to me) nor has anyone argued that the supervising admin. acted improperly. As a result, I remain unconvinced about the validity of this new found discussion so soon after the previous one.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support, although "Genesis creation story" would be much better - see below. I agree it is very soon after the last RM, but that had very few comments, & fewer votes, and concerned a different alternative name. I am dubious that a story known from a single literary text can properly be called a myth, but in any case the term seems clearly POV here. It does actually matter that most other ancient religions have no living adherents, but millions of people still apparently believe the Genesis story to be true. I'd have no objections to renaming other creation accounts to match, which is where "story" or "narrative" are useful. Johnbod (talk) 19:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What does it matter how many people adhere to a religion? Do numbers in adherence constitute accuracy or even veracity? I don't think so. What makes the story a myth is the supernatural agency used. CUSH 05:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

That is certainly a POV position, as plenty of people believe it is not a myth, which is not the case for Sumerian creation myth. Johnbod (talk) 11:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose changing name violates WP:WTA#Myth and Legend by giving preferential treatment to different articles about different belief systems. creation myth is a distinct and precise term that is near universally accepted and used in scholarly and academic articles across different belief systems. The sole reason a request to move has been made is on the basis of some editors taking offense where none has been offered despite this being explained multiple times (see the FAQ). There is no value added to the article by changing the name. Nefariousski (talk) 18:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• I support the move to Creation according to Genesis. Our article should be steering a wide berth around religious and secular questions and nowhere is this more important than in the title of the article. WP:AVOID wisely councils us to avoid titles that imply a viewpoint. ("Article and section titles should be chosen, where possible, to avoid implying a viewpoint.") Just as it would be out of the question to use "sacred" and "holy" in the title it is almost as out of place to use "creation myth." "Creation myth" can be used deep within the bowels of the article but it belongs nowhere near the title. This article is not actually about "creation myths" at all. This article is mostly a recounting of the details of the first two chapters of the book of Genesis. In point of fact very little is said in relation to "creation myth" in the entire article as it presently stands. There is the statement that Genesis would be considered one of the world's many "creation myths." But nothing further is said about that subject. That one statement occupies less than ten percent of the article's content. If we were to mention in the article that some segments of some religions contend that God spoke the words that we read in Genesis, would that justify giving the article a title that included a term such as "sacred?" I think not. The article as it presently stands does not devote an enormous amount of wordage to how sacred or holy or religiously important Genesis is. There is little space devoted to addressing Genesis vis-a-vis its religious identity or its secular identity. That is not what this article is about. Obviously the problems found in the titles of other articles should not be carried over to this article. Concerning those articles where possible they should be given titles that specifically identify a body of thought found in another culture. That should be done without implying in the article's title whether these accounts are literally true or not unless of course the treatment of that question occupies an important place within those articles. Bus stop (talk) 01:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

  What is sacred and holy is subjective, while creation myth, so far as reliable sources go, is an objective descriptor. If you think this article is missing some information, WP:SOFIXIT? Cheers, Ben (talk) 05:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Creation myth is not an "objective descriptor." Creation myth is "subjective." Creation myth is one possible characterization of Genesis. Reliable sources use "creation myth" in relation to Genesis. This point should be made within the body of the article. While making this point, close adherence to sources should be observed. The title should not include unnecessary material however well-sourced. The subject of the article is "Genesis chapters one and two." That in fact would be my first choice for the title for this article. I feel there is no need to characterize it (Genesis) in any way, as far as the title is concerned. By calling it Genesis chapters one and two we would even be bypassing the questions involving some of the other terms that have been discussed such as "account." The title should simply identify it in a "bare-bones" sort of way. Certainly no hint whatsoever of editorial opinion should be contained in the title of this article. But that is besides the point because the subject is identified adequately without appending the term "creation myth." Bus stop (talk) 06:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You have a flawed understanding of WP:NPOV. A neutral point of view is not a lack of viewpoint (vis-a-vis y calling it Genesis chapters one and two we would even be bypassing the questions involving some of the other terms that have been discussed) it is an editorially neutral point of view. That is, when choosing a descriptive title for this article we choose a title that is consistent with reliable sources on the topic. Reliable sources on this topic use the descriptor creation myth and so we remain editorially neutral and use the same descriptor. Cheers, Ben (talk) 10:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

But I didn't even mention WP:NPOV, so how do you derive that I have a "flawed understanding of WP:NPOV?" I don't believe that the policy of WP:NPOV arises in relation to the problem of what name to give this article. Not all Misplaced Pages policies are applicable to all problems and all situations. The problem of what name to give this article is solved by describing, minimally, the subject matter of the article. The subject matter is "Genesis chapters one and two." There is no need to elaborate on that. "Creation myth" is superfluous as far as the problem is concerned of what title to give this article. "Creation according to Genesis" and "Genesis creation story" also provide adequate names without over-elaboration. WP:NPOV would only come up if we found some reason why we had to elaborate on what we already had on hand for a title. But no argument has been presented that the title is somehow lacking without "creation myth" appended to it. It would be a contrivance to add on "creation myth" because the problem of solving for a title is accomplished by using less material in the form of words and ideas. Why would we weigh down the title with nonessential material? Bus stop (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You're telling us:

The problem of what name to give this article is solved by describing, minimally, the subject matter of the article. The subject matter is "Genesis chapters one and two."

That's great, but of course there are many solutions to the problem of what to call this article. No small number of solutions has been suggested on this talk page, and we need to do a little better than just picking one out of a hat, or worse, choosing the least helpful, from a reader's point of view, of the bunch. The article should be helpfully descriptive, it should give the reader some idea of what this article is about. This is also where, contrary to your assertion, NPOV certainly does arise in relation to the naming of this article. When it comes to a choice of title we are to write from an editorially neutral point of view, from the article title to the last sentence of the article.

Now, some arbitrary division of a book is not a helpful title. Creation and the Book of Genesis are the central themes of this article. Reliable sources on this article's topic and the term creation myth go hand in hand. The current article title is consistent with our many other similar articles. With all of that in mind Genesis creation myth is, in my opinion, a suitable title for this article.

Finally, the "Show preview" button is your friend. Modifying your comments as often as you do is rude almost to the point of being disruptive. Cheers, Ben (talk) 15:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you have an online source for Genesis being a creation myth? Bus stop (talk) 19:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

That seems like a strange request at this point in the discussion. The Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible has an online version available if you have access. Under creation we have:

The biblical myth of the origin of the universe. There are two accounts in Genesis of the creation by God.

Under the same entry it notes that:

Although there is a revival in fundamentalist works of ‘creationism’ which regards the OT creation myths as in some sense historical and to be preferred to scientific theories of the evolution of species over immense eras of time, most modern readers of the OT reject this as incredible since it rests on a misunderstanding of the genre of the Genesis narratives, which is deeply theological.

Which may be useful to quote in this article (and the creationism article). Under myth we have as the first example:

In Genesis the Creation and the Fall are myths

The first example of a creation myth in Encyclopedia Britannica, also available online (a free trial is available iirc), is:

Thus, for example, all theology and speculation concerning creation in the Christian community are based on the myth of creation in the biblical book of Genesis and of the new creation in Jesus Christ.

I'm certain these sources satisfy any reliability, relevance and representation of the "general state of scholarship on the matter" constraints. I don't know of any sources that are entirely web-based that discuss the issue, but I'm sure they exist. Have you had a look around? Cheers, Ben (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose renaming back. I wasn't unhappy with the previous name, but now that a more standard name for this particular creation myth article has been chosen, (1) it is too early to revisit the decision without any new arguments at all, and (2) undoing the decision merely because a large number of followers of a fringe theory (creationism) have been canvassed would be completely inappropriate. Let's not forget that excessive POV pushing by these fringers was what drew attention to the unusual title in the first place. Hans Adler 07:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, I am not a follower of "creationism." Bus stop (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Fringe theory that is the basis of some of the largest world religions followed by billions? If anything, the fringe theory is the academic/athiest one this POV title is trying to push. Masterhomer 08:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Believing in Genesis on the figurative level on which it was written in the first place is fine. But insisting that a story is literally true, just because it is so old and has been repeated so often, is fringe nowadays. (It wasn't 150 years ago.) The number of followers of Christianity is relevant to notability, i.e. whether to have this article or not. It is relevant for deciding whether to discuss a particular aspect or not, per WP:UNDUE. It is not relevant for the question whether we present facts as facts or not.

Moreover, the equation between Christians and creationists, which you are implying, would be offensive to most Christians. E.g. look at this. Do you count the Pope as one of your "billions" of Christians who apparently are creationists and against "academic/atheist" POV? Hans Adler 08:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The Catholic Church was a big proponent of the "Big Bang" theory before it was even considered science. Masterhomer 04:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You say, "Believing in Genesis on the figurative level on which it was written in the first place is fine." What indication do you have that it (Genesis) was ever intended to be understood "on the figurative level?" Bus stop (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Strongly support move. The current title is trying to assert an atheist POV on a fundamentally mainstream religious topic. This title is a clear violation of Misplaced Pages:RNPOV. Masterhomer 07:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Support Anthropologically there is no difference between the big bang theory and Genesis. The only difference is one is secular myth and one is considered religous myth. The myth label on big bang theory would imply falsehood, similarly myth label implies false hood here. i would think it would be wise to change other labels of myth and religious Belief in wikipedia. Weaponbb7 (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

ENOUGH. @Weaponbb7: That is a statement coming from complete scientific illiteracy. The Big Bang theory is a scientific model based on tons of evidence while Genesis is just a story in a book. We will not have this kind of talk here out of the creationism corner. This is not YouTube but an encyclopdia and we use reliable sources, and not the bullshit coming out of the Discovery Institute, the Institute for Creation Research, the Creation Research Society, or any other such organization that will twist and turn everything to make creationist teachings appear scientific and real science appear as uncertain or false. This is no platform for creationism and biblical literalism. So take your wrong comparisons elsewhere. CUSH 00:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

That comparison came from a Anthropology textbook statement. Secondly i find you blantantly using Uncivil behavior. thirdly i am not a Creationist if i was then it would require my major of Anthroplpogy to be 99% false, which it is not. Weaponbb7 (talk) 02:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the "Big Bang" an entirely secular theory, since it's regularly used by religious institutions (including those affiliated with Judaism, Christian and Islam) as affirmation of the divine nature of the Universe. I would personally consider the Big Bang is at least originally, a religious theory. However unlike similar attempts like intelligent design, it managed to get mainstream scientific acceptance (but only after decades of battle and proof finding). Masterhomer 06:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't think the current title is trying to assert a POV - myth is a neutral technical term (its only in some modern colloquial uses that it has negative connotations). Its unfortunate that some people view the term negatively, but there are many cases like that. Queer theory, for example, contains what many would view as a strongly prejudiced slur, but its just the standard technical term. The standard title for articles about this topic in other religions seems to be ....creation myth...., and changing this title would be giving preferential treatment to one religion over the others. Additionally, its important to link the title to the general article about this topic - which happens to be called creation myth. IF THAT article is changed, and ONLY if that article is changed, to something like creation narrative or cultural creation concepts, or some such wording, then there would be a case for changing this article, but it currently isn't. Newman Luke (talk) 22:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The fact that the term can be taken as an affirmation of POV regarding it's accuracy, means it shouldn't belong in the title. The original title is inherently NPOV, it doesn't try to classify Genesis in a way that many people would disagree with and even take insult to. But at the same time, it doesn't promote the idea that Genesis is factually accurate. Therefore, the original title is superior. Masterhomer 06:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I support this move. There are negative connotations to "myth" despite the specific denotation in this case. What makes it worse is the connotation here is the denotation elsewhere adding credence to the subtext of "false" when using "myth". The former title is accurate, representative, and does not carry with it subtexts of either truth or falsehood. -- Avi (talk) 22:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• Opppose. Let's look closer at some of the arguments listed above:

• Some, such as Templeknight, have only said that they support the move, without providing any rationale. Per Misplaced Pages:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, this is not a valid argument.
• The assertion that the majority here support the move is similarly, per Misplaced Pages:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, not a valid argument.
• Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title is offensive. Regardless of whether this is true or not, per policy (WP:CENSOR), offensiveness is not a valid argument.
• Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title takes a stand on whether Genesis is literally true or not. Regardless of whether this assertion is true or not, the position that Genesis is literally true is one held by a very small minority. Per WP:MNA, WP:PSCI, WP:FRINGE, WP:DUE, etc. we shouldn't take such minority positions in regard. If this article takes a stand and says that Genesis is not literally true, that would not be against policy. Rather, it would be in line with policy. Articles tangentially connected to the question of whether Genesis is literally true (such as Creationism, Young Earth creationism, Evolution, Earth, etc.) all take a similar position (ie. that Genesis is not literally true). But comparing with these articles is not by itself, of course, a valid argument.
• Some have asserted that "Genesis creation myth" is not the most common way to refer to the topic of this article. If true, this seems to be a valid argument, since WP:UCN tells us to use the most common titles. I will not go into detail here, but rather point to other discussions on this page regarding what the most commonly used name is among reliable sources.
• Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title is inaccurate. If true, this assertion seems to be a valid argument, as WP:AT tells us to use names that are accurate. But apart from those that maintain that Genesis is to be taken literally, it seems to be widely accepted here (as well as in sources) that the term "creation myth" (when used in the formal sense of the term) is an accurate description of the article topic.
• Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title is not neutral. As above, if this is true, then it seems to be a valid argument, as both WP:NPOV#Article titles and WP:AT tells us to use names that are neutral. To examine it, we must ask ourselves, what does "neutrality" mean with regards to religion? In the context of Misplaced Pages, "neutrality" is defined by WP:NPOV, and WP:RNPOV explicitly. RNPOV is pretty clear in that "neutrality" means not giving any religions special treatment, and that we should take care to note that words which have informal as well as formal meanings (like "myth") are only used in the proper context. So, if we decide that it's unacceptable to use "creation myth" in this article, it should be unacceptable to use in other articles as well. I think such an eradication of the term "creation myth" is not going to be particularly helpful, nor supported by WP:RNPOV and WP:WTA#Myth and legend. What we should instead focus on (as was the case before this move discussion started), is making crystal clear in the article text how the word "myth" is used in this article. So doing would be in line with policy.
• Some have asserted that this article should be titled "Genesis creation myth" because similar articles are titled the same way. This argument is invalid, because other articles may be incorrectly titled as well. A related argument, however, is that if this article does not include the word "myth", then neither should other similar articles. This is not invalid, because WP:RNPOV specifically tells us to use the same terminology in dealing with all articles.
• Some have asserted that by titling this article the same way that we title Pelasgian creation myth we are implicitly taking a stand in favour of atheism. This argument goes against WP:RNPOV, which tells us to treat all religions the same.

Because of what I've written above about the arguments that have been brought forth this last week, I believe that consensus (backed by policy) in favour of moving this article away from its current title has not been established on this page. That is why I oppose moving the article at this time. What I believe should be done is to continue the debate over how to explain the term "creation myth" in the lead of the article. Gabbe (talk) 11:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Gabbe — You left out that using the term "creation myth" is irrelevant. It constitutes a larding of the title with extraneous material. It does not have sufficiently enough to do with the title to warrant inclusion. Similarly "sacred," "holy," and "the word of God" would be irrelevant. The title does not need commentary. The title of this article need not tackle the issues that you think are important, although there certainly is a rightful place for addressing the issues you raise within the body of the article. The article (title) needs identity. That is what is required of a title in the case of this article — identity. The title does not need commentary. Commentary belongs in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 14:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Gabbe, the sources explicitly disagreeing that Genesis be categorized as a "myth" ARE reliable for purpose of establishing that this is one significant POV - just like the opposing POV that it be categorized as a myth. There is a logical fallacy known as "circular argument" that tries to apply a POV litmus test to the sources, saying only the ones that match your POV are termed "reliable". The more sources found from theologians who disagree that Genesis is a "myth", the more blatantly obvious it becomes that it is merely a highly contested point-of-view that calls it a "myth". The scholars and theologians who disagree are not to be excluded as "unreliable" when taking the viewpoints into account. Neither can you proclaim a "consensus" by excluding all viewpoints you don't like. The view that Genesis does not match the nebulous genre of "myth" is widespread and significant, even if - get this, this is the important part - even if you personally disagree with that significant viewpoint. And if you continue to endorse the "myth" POV over neutrality, believe me, you are never going to hear the end of it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank-you Til for hitting it right on the head. One side is continually dismissing reliable sources because they diagree with it. Huh?? At least Cush is honest about his dishonesty. Some others are not. SAE (talk) 19:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support an alternative (sorry folks). There's just way too much overhead between these two choices. I think someone suggested "Genesis Creation Story" (or "Genesis Creation Account"). Although I personally prefer "myth" with the understanding of the term to mean "story with meaning", there is too much charged emotion on both ends. I do not personally believe the Genesis account to be literally true, but I do not believe that my opinion is relevant to the problem at hand -- which is ease of use for both editors and readers. Those who believe in the literal account and those who do not should agree that there is too much disagreement and too much potential for disagreement with either of the suggested choices. We have too much to do on Misplaced Pages than to get snared by true believers and true disbelievers who are trying to make Misplaced Pages do something it was NEVER intended to do: establish absolute truth. "Creation According to Genesis" bears an assumptive connotation that creation literally occurred, while "Genesis Creation myth" bears an assumptive connotation that it did not. No one is going to become a theist or an atheist because of our title, but we DO want a title that is accessible to both theists and atheists alike. The very extent of this argument, whether in people involved, length of time involved, recurring nature of it, or heat of emotions, means that neither proposed title is acceptable.EGMichaels (talk) 00:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Quotes from dissenting theologians, specifically mentioning Genesis.

• "In these four NT passages one encounters myth in its best-known definition. What is mythical is not true. What is true is not mythical. If one is told that the flood of Noah's day is a myth, or that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a myth, the hearer will assume that what is meant is that these two events are really fictitious narratives, invented stories... The reason why the stories of Gen. 1-11 in particular are often labeled as myth is that they reflect a prescientific or nonscientific worldview... Myth is not only a figurative expression of truth, but a false expression of truth as well. In this definition, myth becomes, essentially, any story about God or gods or any kind of supernatural powers... The above definition of myth has at least three problems. First, it is so broad in its definition that it reduces any kind of theistic statement to a mythical statement. Second, it suggests that such stories about God(s) reflect a naive concept of truth which science has dismantled. Third, such a definition of myth does not grow out of a study of mythology but from the opposition of myth to science. Bultmann did not arrive at the above definition by probing the myths of oriental and classical literature. He has given us a rationalistic, philosophical definition of myth rather than a phenomenological one. Many scholars would be content to interpret the Creation story or the Fall as neither history nor myth. It is not history, according to them, in the sense that Gen. 1-2 or Gen. 3 describes past events that actually happened. But neither are they myths, at least in the historical-philosophical definition of myth. The truth is that scholars disagree about the definition of the word. One recent writer (G. B. Caird) has isolated nine definitions of myth and another documents twelve aspects of myth. This proliferation of definitions of myth is the reason why one scholar would look at Gen. 1-11 and say it is free of myth, while another scholar would look at Gen 1-11 and pronounce it entirely mythical." -- The Book of Genesis, Chapters 1-17 (part of The New International Commentary on the Old Testament) by Victor P. Hamilton, 1990, p. 56-58.

• "As Giovanni Miegge emphasizes, "the supposed neutrality of those who offer only a formal definition of myth itself conceals a presupposition, and... this involves bringing Christian faith down to a level of pagan forms of worship, treating one as commensurable with the other. This is exactly what the New Testament itself refuses to do." (Gospel and Myth in the Thought of Rudolf Bultmann, p. 101)...

Many scholars deplore the ascription of mythical language to Scripture as entirely unjustifiable and arbitrary. G. Ernest Wright observes that "the absence of the modern scientific view of the universe scarcely makes the literature in itself mythology." (God Who Acts p. 128). Wright stresses that myth is characteristic of the polytheistic, and of nature-worship religions in which man, nature and the gods blend into a single continuum; it is not, he insists, aptly descriptive of biblical religion (p. 125)...

"Since pagan god-stories concern not history but nature", writes James I. Packer, "and since Scripture recounts nothing of Yahweh like the celestial goings-on of these god-stories, it seems clearer and sounder to follow Scripture's own usage and reject myth as a non-Biblical category."...

The classic treatment of the New Testament attitude is Gustav Stahlin's essay on muthos in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Stahlin here emphasizes the evident New Testament disdain for myth. The Bible approves no role whatever for myth, whether as symbolic or parabolic or as direct impartation of religious truths.... "No matter how the term is understood, and no matter how it is extended", Stahlin writes, the concept of myth involves "an inherent antithesis to truth and reality which is quite intolerable on NT soil."...

Philip E. Hughes emphasizes the incompatibility of myth with the biblical emphasis on historical and rational revelation. The use of myth in the framework of untruth or unfactuality in contrast to the truths of the Christian revelation "is in complete harmony with the term which from the time of Pindar onwards always bears the sense of what is fictitious, as opposed to the term logos, which indicated what was true and historical.... The Christ of the Bible is The Logos, not a mythos."...

If the category of myth is a form of expression for events occurring outside the limits of human history, then to apply the term to the Word made flesh inverts not simply the traditional sense of the term, but all linguistic usage as well, and all customary linguistic associations and implications. The notion of myth is not native to the Bible, and those who seek to superimpose the concept upon revealed religion are motivated neither by biblical precedent nor by any indrect encouragement that Scripture supplies...

The term myth has therefore acquired a bewildering ambiguity of connotation with respect to religious thought. It has, in fact, become a "tramp" word of uncertain identity and even contradictory nuances...

When a scholar insists, as Bultmann does, on religious myth as a basic comprehensive category beyond cognitive knowledge and truth, and then deplores particular elements as prescientific and therefore fanciful and outmoded in contrast to modern knowledge, and moreover insists on the actual ontological reality of what transcends the experient although it is cognitively inaccessible, he obviously weights the discussion of religious myth with multiplied confusion. Bultmann is, in fact, triple-minded about myth... Bultmann thus violates his primary definition of myth...

Bernard Ramm has recently proposed an evangelical redefinition and relocation of the concept of myth. He... laments the fact that Strauss and Bultmann have given the concept of myth a bad name in the theological arena..." -- All excerpts from God Who Speaks and Shows: Preliminary Considerations by Carl F. H. Henry, 1999, Chapter 3.

• "Through these texts we see what is the immediate source of the sacredness of marriage, love and fruitfulness. It is not a mythological archetype, as the neighbouring pagan peoples imagined. It is the creative word of Yahweh which gives expression to his enduring will." -- P. Grelot, Le Couple humain dans l'Ecriture, 1964, as translated in Creation Theology, Jose Morales, 2001, p. 161

• "...Since the Hebrew worldview in Genesis is a theological history and not mythology, the question of the relation between creation and history is thereby posed." -- Creation-Covenant Scheme and Justification by Faith: A Canonical Study of the God-Human Drama in the Pentatech and the letter to the Romans‎ p 47 by Mary Sylvia Chinyere Nwachukwu, 2002

• "The Old Testament makes a radical break with this philosophy of the ancient world. One does not do justice to the Old Testament by saying that Israel borrowed myth, or used mythological language to describe its faith. To the Hebrew, an absolutely sovereign God brought them into existence as a nation. Their concept of time was not cyclical but eschatological; their ritual at the temple was not cosmic and magical but an enactment of their redemption; and their concept of space was not limited to the primeval world but was actualized in history. In a word, reality to Israel was within her concept of history... Therefore Genesis is not myth. The Hebrew faith was a radical departure from the characteristic mythical thought of the pagans... -- The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Dallas Seminary, 2004 ed.) p. 18

• "While they do not teach science, the early chapters of Genesis are history and not myth. -- Genesis: Part 1: God and His Creation Genesis 1-11, Gayle Somers, Sarah Christmyer, 2004, p. 102

• "...Others have suggested that the Genesis narratives are "myths". But "myth" is a slippery term, witness the fact that scholars use at least nine different definitions of "myth" . According to McCartney and Clayton, "the common meaning of the term myth in popular parlance is 'a fabulous and untrue story'." This denotation, they say, makes the term "myth" totally inadequate for Genesis, for "biblical history is not myth, but a true story, told with theological purpose and vantage-point. It may use the images and linguistic forms of its environment, but slipping in the term myth by redefinition really results in a reduction of the uniqueness of biblical history. Moreover, the Genesis narratives demythologize pagan mythologies . Surely the label of "myth" is inappropriate for narratives that demythologize pagan mythologies." -- Preaching Christ from Genesis, 2007, Sidney Greidanus, p. 23.

• "It would be very difficult to classify the material in Genesis as myth. Israel had one God, not a multitude. The nation of Israel had a beginning, a history, and a future hope. They saw God, rather than gods or other supernatural creatures, as the primary actor in the world. Their worship was not cosmic, natural or superstitious, but a reenactment of their own rescue from Egypt and a celebration of God's factual intervention in history and their hope in his promises. If Genesis uses elements of mythological language, it is to display a deliberate contrast with pagan concepts and to show that the Lord God is sovereign over such ideas. For example, the ancients worshiped the sun as a god, but in Genesis the sun serves the Creator's wishes (1:14-18). The book of Genesis is a cemetery for lifeless myths and dead gods. Genesis is not myth.-- Commentary in newest edition of NLT Study Bible, Tyndale Bible Publishers (2008)

More ambivalent scholarly or secular views over the past centuries

• "...Even legend, however, is not mythology, and, despite recent attempts to revive a mythological interpretation of personages and incidents in the Old Testament..., there is very general agreement that the Old Testament religion is non-mythological. This absence of mythology is another marked feature of contrast with other religions. We may, if we please, speak of a tradition like that of Eden as "mythical", as others may discuss whether it contains symbol or allegory. But "myth" in this case must be distinguished from mythology proper, i.e., such weaving of stories about the gods in their relations to each other and to the world as are found in other religions, and generally have their origins in nature-phenomena (e.g., sun-myths, dawn-myths, myths of growth and reproduction, etc.) From this element, as most scholars recognise, the Old Testament seems remarkably free. See the remarks of Professor Robertson, Early History of Israel, pp 188-9, 299. Professor Robertson quotes from an interesting article by Mr. Andrew Lang in The New Review, Aug. 1889, and also quotes Stade, Geschichte, i., pp. 438-9. Gunkel may also be referred to, Genesis, pp. 113 ff. He thinks traces of an original mythological basis are to be discovered, but contends for the absence of mythology in the proper religion of Israel." -- The Problem of the Old Testament Considered with Reference to Recent Criticism‎ by James Orr, 1906, p. 486

• "Gen. i.-ii. 4. A Priestly Narrative about 550 BC. This chapter is not "a story" is the ordinary usage of that word, it is not "a myth", nor is it in the strict sense a poem." Ancient Hebrew Stories and Their Modern Interpretation, W. G. Jordan, 1922, p. 73.

• "Its purpose is clearly to point to the creative power of Jahwe. Therefore to speak of mythological "elements' in the Old Testament is very confusing at best. There are no "mythological sections" that are "analyzable" as such. There is only a deliberate utilizing of a number of non-Jewish figures and images. All of this demonstrates the anti-mythological tenor of the Jahwe cult as well as the vital power of absorption in the Jahwist faith." -- Studies in Dogmatics: Sin, G. C. Berkouwer, 1971, p. 83.

• "...The biblical narrative treats events of Israel's past as history, not mythology, for what happened to Abraham onward, and even prior to Abraham all the way back to creation, took place in a time-space continuum. Its world and people are the world and people we know today. Ancient mythology, while holding a great deal in common with the world of today, deals primarily with creatures and events of a different order. The nearest analogy in the biblical narrative is the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, though even there the LORD God is carefully described in non-mythological terms... " -- conservative religion scholar Carl Amerding, The Old Testament and Criticism, 1983, p. 11.

• "...How to define "myth" is another matter altogether. While most, if not all biblical scholars would agree that the word myth may denote what produces myths, or may mean the understanding of the world that is contained in them, agreement would end as soon as these generalizations were made more specific. Some would argue that myths are produced by a pre-scientific outlook and that the world-view contained in myths must retreat as science advances. Others would regard myths as the product of a way of knowing different from science, expressing truths independently of the knowledge, or lack of it, of scientific causes." -- J.W. Rogerson, "Slippery Words:Myth" in Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth by Aland Dundes, 1984, p. 63

• "In using the terms myth and mythical in relation to Genesis, we encounter greater misgivings. Not only do the terms have unsavory connotations in popular usage, but an impressive array of biblical scholars have argued that both myth and mythical modes of thought are absent from the Bible. Myths are what the Egyptians and Babylonians believed. 'The God of Israel has no mythology,' declared G. Ernest Wright. 'The religion of Israel suddenly appears in history, breaking radically from the mythopoeic approach to reality.' This position follows the earlier lead of Hermann Gunkel who had argued that myths are "stories about the gods", and since a myth requires at least two gods to make a story, the Old Testament contains no myths, though some mythical materials are alluded to... Obviously if one restricts the term myth to polytheistic materials, biblical materials are not only not mythical but anti-mythical..." -- The Meaning of Creation by Conrad Hyers, 1984, p. 99.

• "Perhaps the most important thing that can be said about the creation days - which are not the same as sun days - is that there is nothing particularly mythological about them. The world that comes into appearance and comes to appear progressively distinct is a world which is plainly perceptible to all humans as humans, believers and non-believers alike. The creation account addresses the world as we know it, as humans have always known it and will continue to know it... Yet just as the creation account is not a mythological cosmogony, so it is not a scientific explanation. Rather, it addresses my pre-understanding (Vorverstehen) of the theatre of existence prior to any explanation, mythical or scientific." -- "The Phenomenology of Symbol: Genesis I and II" by Frank Flinn, in Phenomenology in Practice and Theory: Essays for Herbert Spiegelberg, William S. Hamrick, 1985 p. 235

• "...There certainly are for those who regard all language about an act of God... as mythological. But this is not mythology in the traditional sense, not the kind of mythology that has become antiquated with the decay of the mythical world view." -- R. Bultmann, 'New Testament and Mythology', p. 43, as cited in Liberating Exegesis: The Challenge of Liberation Theology to Biblical Studies‎ by Christopher Rowland, Mark Corner, 1989, p. 83.

• "...The Bible Is Not Mythological but Uses Mythological Ideas. Biblical thought should not be called "mythopoeic," neither should any of the resultant biblical narratives be termed "myth". The OT uses ancient Near Eastern mythological ideas figuratively and symbolically without any commitment to the underlying theology of the mythological world from which they have been borrowed. Biblical narratives, such as those of the Creation (Gen. 1:1-2:3), Paradise (2:4-25), Fall (3:1-24), and Flood (6:5-9:17), may appear to be of the same type as Ancient Near Eastern myths, but are different due to the impact of the transforming forces of Yahwistic faith." -- International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, article entry "MYTH", 1994 edition.

• "...There has been in recent times a broadening of the understanding of myth; the scope of the adjective "mythical" now knows no limits (besides, there is often no clear distinction between "mythical" and "mythological".) Further, the alternative which would describe reality either as myth or history is questionable..." ... "It follows that the patriarchal stories have no relation to myth in the proper sense of the word. There can be only points of contact where folk stories are designated as "myths" or where an older form lies behind the myth." -- Genesis 12-36, Claus Westermann, 1995, p. 54.

• "Genesis' story is not a myth, for it does not in fact tell us anything about what things were like when there were no things. Its tohu webohu is not an antecedent nothingness-actuality like the Great Slime dismembered by the Babylonian Marduk, nor yet an eternal egg or womb or pure potentiality of primal matter..." -- Systematic Theology, Robert Jenson, 1997, p. 11

"The story told in the third chapter of Genesis is not a myth; it does not describe what always and never happens. It describes the historical first happening of what thereafter always happens; moreover, had it not happened with the first humans it could not have happened at all, since then the first humans would have been omitted from an "encompassing deed of the human race". -- ibid, p. 150

• "Consider next the Bible's account of the Flood in Genesis 7:17-24. Sound interpretation shows that the text is describing real events and a real person, Noah. It is not myth. But the text describes things as they would appear to a human observer like Noah. Everything within range of human observation was covered with water, and all the animals within human range died." -- Three Views on Creation and Evolution (1999), various authors, p. 92.

• "Myth, Mythology. In popular usage the term myth connotes something untrue, unimaginable, or unbelievable; or, in older parlance, "a purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons or events" (OED). (Deferring to this usage and to the Christian religion, standard Western encyclopedias of mythology omit from their discussion any reference to the narratives of the Bible.) However, in the realm of biblical studies and theology, just as in contemporary anthropology, philosophy, and literature, the term myth is often used in a less pejorative fashion to describe an important if provisional way of perceiving and expressing truth. There is, however, no agreed-on definition, whether in terms of its form (that is, its relationship to fairy-tales, legends, tales, epics etc.), or in terms of its content and function.

"Hermann Gunkel defined myth as a story involving at least two gods and on this basis denied that the OT contains true myths but at most, "faded out" myths or "mythic torsos"... -- Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Richard N. Soulen, 2001, p. 115.

• "Genesis 2 is not a myth about how things always are, but a story about something that happened." -- Old Testament Theology: Israel's Gospel, John Goldingay, 2003, p. 119.

• "Similarly, in the Hebrew Bible Genesis 1-11 is presented as 'history', not 'myth' or 'fiction'." -- Richard E Averbeck, "Sumer, The Bible and Comparative Method" in Mesopotamia and the Bible: Comparative Evaluations, 2003, p. 109.

• "The Bible itself is perfectly aware of its opposition to all mythological religions. It brands them as idolatrous, and I think that the revelation of scapegoat delusion in mythology is an essential part of the fight against idolatry. Here we could go, for instance, to the story of Cain and Abel, and compare it to the myth of Romulus and Remus. In the story of Cain and Abel, the murder of one brother by the other is presented as a crime that is also the founding of a community. But in the Roman story this foundation cannot be viewed as a crime. It is a legitimate action by Romulus. The point of view of the Bible about such events differs enormously from that of myth." -- Oedipus Unbound: Selected Writings on Rivalry and Desire, by René Girard, Mark R. Anspach, 2004 ISBN 0804747806, 9780804747806 p. 112

"Not only is the Bible not myth; it is the source of whatever "demythologization" has occurred in the world and will occur in the future. (ibid, p. 112)

• "The creation story is not a myth but neither is it a modern scientific textbook... The Genesis creation story may be a parable, written for the understanding of the ancients. But in no way is it a myth." -- The Patterns of New Ideas: 300 Ideas for Products, Inventions and Improvements, Mark Meek, 2004, p. 186-187 (Category:Science)

• "...The great diversity of the scholarly works on myth shows that, although being one of the most studied subjects in the history of the social sciences and the humanities, it has not yet been entirely understood. At the crux of this confusion is the simple and straightforward question of whether or not the storyline content of myth has any basis in historical events and processes. A disdainful view of myth is easily demonstrated by a simple citation analysis of the editorial use of the term 'myth'... in the generally well-respected journals Nature and Science during the ten-year publication period of 1996 through 2005... The few times that 'myth' is used are virtually always in a pejorative sense, such as "time to bury misleading myth"..." -- Myth and Geology, 2007, p. 10, session held at the 32nd International Geological Congress in Florence, Italy, in August 2004.

Note: This is only a selection of the supporting material on my user page, quoting a significant POV of prominent scholars of all stripes, who dispute that the Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, and/or Bhagavad Gita are "myths". This POV is significant, and it has only been brushed aide by asserting some sort of magical priority for the nomenclature of the opposing POV - as if the controversy has now suddenly been settled to everyone's satisfaction. It has not, by any means. We are called to describe the situation neutrally - not take sides. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

this is a rather impressive exercise in cherry-picking. The entire point you are making, and it is one I am willing to concede, is that it isn't very usual to talk about the "Genesis creation myth". It is de facto more usual to say "Genesis creation narrative" or similar, which is why I would support a move back to the original title. This does not, however, change the obvious fact that Genesis contains a record of a Hebrew creation myth. --dab (𒁳) 15:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow, so much effort to make Genesis true. But where are the quotes from Hindu theologians? CUSH 18:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I fail to understand how any of the points brought up in your post isn't solved by the wording of this article, the FAQ and lengthy talk page discussions. If someone jumps to conclusions and assumes informal use without looking at the FAQ, clicking on the wikilink to creation myth, reading the sources cited/referenced etc... is not the fault of the editors of the article. Due diligence has been more than met to establish formal usage of the term, this article's use of the term creation myth meets every relevent policy time and time again, the RFC shows this, precedent from other related articles shows this as does consensus. There's no reasonable assumption that any reasonably intelligent reader who's not out to push their own POV or dig up trouble would have any grief with the wording of the article. Nefariousski (talk) 18:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: There should be two articles

Explain use of "myth" in header, not footnote

Suggestion

Topic ban time?

It looks as if it's time for topic bans. The disruption by people who play some kind of Three Card Monte with a small number of absurd claims that have all been shot down dozens of times can't go on forever. I don't know if we are dealing with bad faith or with a severe lack of competence, but this must stop. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do a well-prepared ANI report. Hans Adler 23:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to see threads that are handled by the FAQ (or threads that degenerate into something that is handled by the FAQ) kindly point to the FAQ and a hat/hab template applied to the section. This works perfectly well on other "drama attracting" articles like evolution and intelligent design. Debunking the same couple of arguments again and again isn't helping the project.

My time will be pretty limited today and tomorrow but I'll have some time to help with this over the weekend. I also don't think it should be me to introduce something at ANI since Baseball Bugs seems to flare up at the sight of my name. That doesn't bother me, but it will drag out the ANI thread, and I think we've all had enough of things dragging out for no good reason. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

We'd also need a q and a about why the article about the creation myth in Genesis is called Genesis creation myth, and why accurate titling isn't "gratuitous." Auntie E. (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If there's no other takers I'll submit the ANI. If you have any particular comments or points you think I should include just drop them off on my talk page and I'll make sure they get incorporated. Nefariousski (talk) 01:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd say to post every diff where someone called creation myth 'POV' immediately after being told it wasn't, but that might crash the server. --King Öomie 14:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's time to get this ball rolling again. I can't even make an edit to the article any more without being reverted for no reason. See User_talk:Swift_as_an_Eagle#Justification for example (diffs at that link). Furthermore, EGMichaels is attempting to open up another new round of discussion on the term myth after an RFC and two RMs (see Talk:Genesis creation myth#Talkpage_Roundtable below, his talk page and recent contribs that look suspiciously like canvassing). Ben (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course I'm canvassing -- and I want BOTH sides included. There's been too much argumentation here. What I want to do is list what and why for each option, and I'm not allowing either side to step on the other. It may be that no consensus is possible, or it may be that it is. But there's been too much argumentation and too little brainstorm to find out. In any case, let's please table the discussion on this talk page and move it to my own talk page. This talk page is at an impasse and it's only cluttering the page. Leave the clutter to me, and if I'm not fair and impartial, then you can blast me and leave this poor article talk page in peace.EGMichaels (talk) 16:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course I meant canvassing of the inappropriate variety. You were very selective of who you sent talk page messages to. Ben (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Message box at the top

WP:UCN

wow, this discussion has become derailed completely. Time to ask the question that should have been answered first and foremost, what is the most common title by which the Genesis creation myth is referred to in academic literature in the field of biblical studies.

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• (any others?)

Just looking at the google books hits, it is evident that "Genesis creation myth" is the least frequently used of these versions. The most common is probably either "creation story in Genesis" or "Genesis creation story". Of course these results need to be refined by looking which books are academic and which aren't, but I daresay it does give a good impression. This is simple WP:NAME. POV and drawn-out ideological debates have nothing to do with it. Use neither the "myth" title nor the "according to" one, but pick one with either "story" or "narrative". Thank you. --dab (𒁳) 14:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

And what should be done about the clear bias in presenting the Genesis creation myth significantly differently from all other creation myths on Misplaced Pages? --King Öomie 14:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This section addresses the question of article title exclusively. Article content is an entirely different matter. But your complaint is misguided in any case. Each article is treated on a case-by-case basis. If (and only if) it transpires that the "significant difference" is in fact present in academic literature, Misplaced Pages must (not can, must) reflect this "significant difference" in its coverage. What Misplaced Pages cannot do is introduce a difference in coverage that has no counterpart in academic treatment of the topic. Please take any further debate not about article title out of this section. Misplaced Pages is not "unbiased", that's a very fundamental misconception. Because "unbiased" is no absolute, "bias" can only be fixed with a view to some point of reference. This point of reference for Misplaced Pages is mainstream academic literature. Misplaced Pages is bound to reflect the bias present in mainstream academia as accurately as possible. --dab (𒁳) 14:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I knew all of that, yet somehow it escaped me. At this point I'm irritated by the whittling down of the concessions demanded by the other side (for various reasons, including but not limited to the same reasons over and over again), and it's getting in the way. I"ll take a step back. --King Öomie 14:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a wise suggestion considering the ink that has been spilled so far on these pages. How do we do this so it is clear to follow? Whatever the results I hope we can all agree to submit to. For example, I will begin:

"The Hebrew Creation Narrative" -- Washington State U. (see here) 75.144.70.141 (talk) 14:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

"Hebrew creation narrative" is fine. As is "creation narrative in Genesis". I hope it is uncontroversial that "story" and "narrative" are more or less synonymous, and also that the variant "Genesis creation story/narrative" and "Creation story/narrative in Genesis" are equivalent. Combining these four readings as variants of a single title, I daresay it will become apparent that they outweigh all other options. Which of the four we end up choosing is really immaterial. --dab (𒁳) 15:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

"Hebrew creation narrative" is misleading. Only the language of the Genesis text is Hebrew, but this creation story was likely not held by ancient Hebrews or Israelites. The narrative is a Jewish myth out of the period of the "Babylonian Captivity" and later. CUSH 16:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

How does this line in WP:TITLE-

The ideal title should be:
~~
"Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern  as those of other similar articles."

-Weigh up against WP:UCN? For example, "Genesis creation story" gets less scholar hits than "Creation story in Genesis", but the former is more consistent with existing articles. --King Öomie 15:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

There's a reason[REDACTED] has WP:GOOGLE. If we slap

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

then we can claim these results shows clearly "creation myths" way outweigh usage for either of the other in scholarly circles. If you want to narrow it down to only those that mention genesis, then slap a +genesis in the search terms, all three are then equal. What does this all mean? It all means we need to be extremely careful trying to claim search results mean anything because it introduces bias, and let popularity trump notability/neutrality. Tendancer (talk) 16:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I've done damn near every variation of the google test (you can see results half a dozen times about a mile up the page). The results are astoundingly in favor of using the term creation myth since that is the almost universally used term to describe this concept. We're not in the business of inventing terms here, "Creation Narrative" has no definition or meaning as a distinct term nor does "Creation Story" and we shouldn't be using colloquial terms or jargon when a perfectly acceptable, widely used, formal and defined term exists. To do so is a slippery slope, and would end up violating WP:WTA#Myth and Legend and sets the way for weasel words and peacock terms like "Sacred Narrative", "Divine History" etc... The subject of this article is a creation myth, not a "creation story" or "creation narrative" because neither of those terms exist in a formal sense. Nefariousski (talk) 16:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

When I google Define "Creation Narrative" there are no definitions or specific articles regarding the concept of "Creation Narrative" and a handful of the hits that came back on the first page specifically defined the term Creation Myth and used the words "Creation Narrative" in the discussion of the definition or encyclopedic article (not wiki) on creation myth. The preferred term / usage is so abundantly clear as to be almost undebateable (not like that will stop some of us). This talk page (and many others related to this issue) is turning to one desperate fork after another. First the use of "creation myth" at all and then once that was resolved, then the use of it in the lede, when that was resulved, then it was the use of it in the title, etc... Nefariousski (talk) 17:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Dab - use some form of story. There is also the issue of whether a story known from a single written text should be called a "myth" at all. Johnbod (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

A megabyte of text in the archives of this talk says that no, that's really not an issue. --King Öomie 18:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention UCN is more focused on using common names instead of formal names people or places. The spirit of UCN doesn't really apply to this article since we're not using some uncommon archaic term. Nefariousski (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, UCN applies fully here. Johnbod (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

While I appriciate your detailed explanation of why you think it applies here I still disagree, the reliable sources for this article reference "creation myth". Usage of "creation myth" is hardly rare or uncommon and thus doesn't fall under the umbrella of UCN since its purpose is to avoid using obscure terminology. UCN states that we should "observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals" all of which almost exclusively use "creation myth". Failing that it instructs us to use whatever name we reach by consensus which we have done. Additionally UCN directs us to look toward WP:WTA for further guidance on neutrality (which we've done in making the decision). UCN furthermore directs us to use more accurate terms over colloquial terms as long as the more accurate term isn't overly obscure and has an abundant body of reliable sources that use said term (see the Tsunami vs. Tidal Wave example). Nefariousski (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Really? Look at Dab's stats above. "Genesis Creation myth" has precisely 74 Gscholar hits! Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

"Genesis creation account" has five times as many. 20:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you direct me to a definition of the term "creation account"? precision means something and considering that all options seem to have significant usage we should defer to the more accurate and precise usage not just the one with more hits.

* Creation: cre·a·tion /kriˈeɪʃən/ Show Spelled –noun 1. the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering. 2. the fact of being created. 3. something that is or has been created.

* Account: ac·count /əˈkaʊnt/ Show Spelled –noun 1. an oral or written description of particular events or situations; narrative: an account of the meetings; an account of the trip. 2. an explanatory statement of conduct, as to a superior. 3. a statement of reasons, causes, etc., explaining some event.

Hope that helps you. Cheers, SAE (talk) 20:39, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

So by your methods the Electoral College is a university where students learn about elections? Define the whole term, not its component parts. "Creation Account" as a term has no definition and means nothing while creation myth is a very clearly defined term. In short "Creation Account" means nothing outside of colloquial usage it is two imprecise words joined together in a string and could just as easily apply to non religious or supernatural accounts of creation. For that matter any recipe, furniture assembly manual, or home video of a baby being born could be defined as a "creation account" Nefariousski (talk) 20:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The term is "Genesis creation account"; but many here are using a generative meaning for the word "Myth" which classically meant other worldly, while Genesis purports to describe what happened in this world, though using a Mesopotamian story telling format which most likely valued meaning over factual events. Hardyplants (talk) 22:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

@Swift as an Eagle: Yeah, however, "account" refers to the oral or written description of particular events or situations that actually exist/ed. The creation narrative in Genesis is not the description of something that anybody witnessed or that has indications pointing towards it. Genesis narrates the origin of the world achieved by supernatural forces. That is not an account, that is a myth.

And of course Nefariousski is right in pointing out that you cannot really break the term into its parts and thus destroy the compund's meaning. CUSH 20:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Ofcourse it is an account and oufcourse it has been whitnessed ..... but this isnt realy a creteria of an account anyways.--Templeknight (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

--King Öomie 22:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity who witnessed the account? And who recorded said account? Nefariousski (talk) 22:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The question of how Moses (who wrote the Book of Genesis) knew how God created the world was a problem for the classical rabbis. The usual explanation was that God told him - after all, he met God on Mount Sinai. But according to the oral torah Moses already knew some of the stories in Genesis before he met Yahweh - so the explanation was put forward that Adam had written it down. Not that Adam witnessed the first few days, of course, but he did have the chance to talk direct to God. So, now you know :) PiCo (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

See, that there, that's what they call a Retcon. --King Öomie 03:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Pico, I've never heard or read of such an 'oral tradition'; the one recording religious events before the deluge was not Adam but Enoch, according to the oral traditions I've encountered. I do agree with dab that there are surely a few people getting lost in the crowd, who are familiar enough with such lore to know what they're talking about. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

So Enoch wrote down an oral account a few hundred years after it happened. Did this document get passed down through the generations and end up on the ark during the great flood or was it rediscovered after the water level dropped? Nefariousski (talk) 17:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Good question, but it's hard to find a specific answer in any written sources. I believe it is a tradition that Noah himself being righteous, passed certain teachings and/or writings to certain of his grandchildren. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok so I understand that Noah was considered a righteous man, and I know there's a lot of detail regarding what the Ark was made of and what living things were brought on the ark and so on, but do you know of any sources that document any other items that might have been brought on to the ark? Is it a best guess based on what is understood of Noah's nature that he brought along written histories or is it assumed that the once written history (enoch's) turned into oral history and then back into written history? Are any writings actually attributed to Noah himself? Nefariousski (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I have actually seen very little exploring that type of specific question; some conjecture identifying Noah with Manu, and of course parts of the Book of Enoch and other Dead Sea Scrolls are attributed to Noah. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Til, from the Shemot Rabbah 5:22 (Moses is speaking): "I opened the book of Genesis and read it and saw the acts of the generation of the flood..." So Moses had the book of Genesis before Sinai. There are similar passages elsewhere in the Talmud. The question the rabbis were addressing was how Moses came by this knowledge. The Book of Enoch is of course earlier than the Talmud, but the age of the Oral Torah is unclear (supposedly equally as old as the Written Torah). Rashi was of the opinion that each of the Genesis patriarchs wrote an account, and that these were the originals of the toledot. PiCo (talk) 02:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Look through this list of the use of that terminology: and you will see that the restrictive meaning of the term "account" is incorrect. Hardyplants (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Wrong approach

In my opinion, dab's approach to this is wrong. The fact that he could think of so many ways to refer to this article's topic should have raised alarm bells. I can think of many more titles to add to his list, and I'm sure someone else can think of even more. Throw in permutations of {Bible, biblical, Hebrew, Christian, Jewish, Judaic} and phrases involving those words (something random: "the creation myth in the Bible") to get a seriously long list started. The problem is, there is no title. This article does not have a name. All of the examples we come up with are descriptors.

On top of that, choosing this article's title from a list of descriptors as long as we can come up with because it has the highest hit count is to give undue weight to one over many others whose combined hit count easily outnumber the hit count of the highest hit count descriptor. Since there are so many permutations there may even be a higher hit count descriptor we haven't thought of. Finally, we have obvious relevance and reliability issues associated with search engine tests.

So now that we've established that this article's title will in fact be a suitable descriptor and that search engine hit counts are essentially irrelevant, we analyse relevant and reliable sources and choose a suitable descriptor based on the descriptions given in those sources. It has been established that the term creation myth is near universal descriptor in the relevant and reliable sources, Genesis is an obvious modifier, Genesis creation myth is already used throughout the literature (so no original research), Genesis creation myth is consistent with our other articles, it allows us to include a short definition of creation myth in the first sentence to allay the concerns of those editors that can't shake the association of myth with false, and so on.

Am I missing something here? Cheers, Ben (talk) 07:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Genesis 1-2: Ancient cosmology

Secular scholarly evidence against use of "myth"

The following are excerpts from the book Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth. By Alan Dundes, Prof of Anthropology and Folklore, U of Calif, Berkeley. They are available online through Google Scholar at "Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth" (ed. Alan Dundes)

These scholars recognize what many of us have been saying: :There is nothing pejorative about the term "myth." The term mythos means word or story.... It is only the modern usage of the word "myth" as "error" that has led to the notion of myth as something negative. In common parlance the term "myth" is often used as a mere synonym for error or fallacy. "That's just a myth!" one might exclaim to label a statement or assertion as untrue.

The authors say "...there are disagreements about what myth is and how it should be analyzed. There has been a dramatic shift in theoretical orientation from the nineteenth century to the twentieth." With scholarly disagreements about what myth is, and dramatic shift in theoretical orientation, how can we—in "clear conscience" and NPOV—persist in demanding that this and other articles present themselves as being about 'myth—creation or otherwise?

Some in arguing for "myth" here have claimed that it is a well-recognized term, particularly when preceded by "creation" or "deluge." Yet, this book says:

Nowadays, myth can encompass everything from a simple-minded, fictitious, and mendacious impression to an absolutely true and sacred account, the very reality of which far outweighs anything that ordinary everyday life can offer. The way in which the term myth is commonly used reveals, too, that the word is loaded with emotional overtones....

Please note that this is coming not from theologians, but from mythologists who cannot agree in the pages of this book. (There are multiple articles within.)

More quotes from the book:

• (Different terms) are used for different religious genres but would seem to be more neutral than myth. In "terminological demytheologisation," the actual word "myth" is avoided but the account, the story itself is retained. To call the Resurrection a myth may be a dastardly insult to a Christian for whom the concept myth has a pejorative sense. He would probably prefer some such expression as holy story or sacred history: perhaps quite simply history, for in Christianity as in Judaism there is a marked tendency to transform religious traditions into history.

• Christian theologians are faced with certain difficulties when using the terms myth, history and sacred history. It is possible to imagine that someone might try to classify the Creation as a myth, the Crucifixion as history and the Resurrection as sacred history.

• The conception that we have of myth has continually to be revised in the light of modern scholarship. Myth is undoubtedly a very complex concept.

• Cosmogonic in this sense comprises all those stories that recount how the world began, how our era started, how the goals that we strive to attain are determined and our most sacred values codified.

"Traditional oral tale" is the only safe basis for a broad definition of myth.

• The negative use of (the creation myth view) of myth was as follows. It was part of the magical outlook of ancient Israel's neighbors that they saw the process of nature, especially of fertility, bound up with human activity.... The religion of the OT broke with this pattern of religion. Its thought was dominated not by the cycles of the natural world, but by the promises of God being worked out and fulfilled in the historical process. Thus history was opposed to myth, not in the popular sense of true as against historically false, but in terms of conflicting views of reality. One view (that of ancient Israel's neighbours) was a primitive and pre-scientific view, its attempt to direct natural forces being based upon ignorance of scientific laws. The other view, while no less pre-scientific, was enabled by God's redemptive action in history to be lived above a crude relationship with the world of nature to a notion of transcendence in terms of a personal God.

The above final bullet point explains how Judaeo-Christian's Book of Genesis accounts are in a different category and class from those of ancient Israel's neighbours—a question that has also been raised and unanswered in the discussions.

Nef, please include this material in your writing for Admin Notice Board on our collective behalf. None of us is an expert on myth, so far as I know, and this "professional" non-theological opinion needs to be considered.

Thanks, ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Nice attempt. However, this author makes a crucial error: he assumes the history that is narrated in the Bible to be true. But of course we all know that nothing in the Bible prior to, say, 850 BCE has any historical veracity whatsoever (and religiously it is even wronger, because before the 6th century BCE Judaism did not exist at all, Israelites were not Jews). In reality "Israel" was the backlot of the Egyptian empire, a people of illiterate goatherds while the "neighbors" were the ones who took part in the exchange of culture and goods throughout the eastern Mediterranean. To say that Israel was somehow culturally or technologically superior to its environment is a reversal of the actual situation, stemming out of Jewish and Christian fundamentalism that seeks to present an alternative history of "God's people".

We do not actually know what stories about the origins of world the Israelites told their children, but we do know that the Genesis creation story did not come into existence prior to the extension of Mesopotamian rule in the Levant and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity which resulted in the birth of Judaism. The Genesis creation story reads just like a distorted version of the Enki and the Abzu , and there is no doubt that the beginning of Genesis is the result of Israelites coming into contact with Mesopotamian traditions (and of course the following tales about the Flood and the resettlement after that are originally Mesopotamian as well).

The Genesis creation narrative is one told by people who didn't know any better. It is not an accurate description of how the world came into being in reality. There is nothing about an expanding universe, cosmic microwave background, oscillating virtual particles, or anything else in it that we know today. nd why? Because it is a myth. In any sense of the word.

This article is about a theological issue, not a historical or otherweise scientific one. A creation myth is the tale of the world coming into existence through supernatural forces. That is what the beginning of the book of GEnesis is. Nothing else. CUSH 07:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Cush, did we read the same book? You refer to "this author," when in fact the quotes come from several articles, each by a different author in the book Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth. I appreciated your nicely presented Genesis opinion. The articles are written from a scientific perspective by various credentialed mythologists. Your statement, "he assumes the history that is narrated in the Bible to be true," is an incorrect jump to conclusion. Sincere question: I'm wondering if your analysis of Genesis comes from formal training and therefore personal expertise, or from secondary sources. If the latter, it would be nice to know the source(s). ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Well at least now we are clear on your true argument, for pushing that opinion of yours as if an undisputed fact contested by no one. Thanks for your candor, it's much more refreshing than those who pretend the word implies no falsehood and is thus perfectly neutral. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I too thank-you for showing your clear bias. We all have presuppositions, to be sure, it's just that many try to deny that they do. You have not and now we know where you stand. I imagine that all others here who are fighting for the word myth come with these same presuppositions as you. SAE (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Really this is the WHOLe point:

        myth / m'ɪθ / 
         Synonyms: 
         o noun: fable, legend
         o A myth is a well-known story which was made up in the past to explain natural events or to justify religious beliefs or social customs. N-VAR
               + There is a famous Greek myth in which Icarus flew too near to the Sun.
               + ...the world of magic and of myth.
         o If you describe a belief or explanation as a myth, you mean that many people believe it but it is actually untrue.
              Synonym: fallacy
               + Contrary to the popular myth, women are not reckless spendthrifts.

As long as this definition appears in Google, you cannot begin an article on a current and very popular religious belief, with the word "myth" and remain at the same time npov. It's not possible. You say "myth", I say "true" -- those are the opposite extremes: both are pov. Would you allow "true"? Then why would I allow "myth"? Please, let's see through our bias, and let's meet in the middle ground. SAE (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I think I have been very open from the beginning that the connotation "untrue" of the word myth, while not intended, is perfectly appropriate in the context of this article. As a statement of fact about the history of the physical world, the Genesis creation story is simply false. There is a consensus among competent scholars that the story was originally not meant in such a literal sense, and this consensus is reflected in how we, as Misplaced Pages treat the topic. Creationism is fringe (or anachronistic) even as a theological theory; and even more so if gauged as an attempt to explain our physical word. There is nothing wrong or POV about hinting at this fact. And the mere use of the word "myth" with its connotation cannot amount to undue weight to debunking this fringe, either.

As to the passage quoted by Afaprof, this would be a lot more convincing if it wasn't quoted out of context. When read in context, it is clear that the author does not argue against using the word "myth" in its technical sense. Instead, he defines the technical meaning of the word, and he does so in the introduction to a book about the theory of myth. Defining the technical sense of the word and talking about its distinction from non-technical uses is an obvious thing to do in such a context and does not prove the existence of a scholarly debate about the use or abuse of the word in question. The author does not argue against the technical use of the word "myth" any more than he argues against the non-technical use:

"But untrue statements are not myths in the formal sense in this book—nor are myths necessarily untrue statements. For myth may constitute the highest form of truth, albeit in metaphorical guise."

Nice try, but this is not going to fly. Hans Adler 19:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There is a fatal flaw in your reasoning. You say your bias wins because science proves it. However you are wrong. Every scientist who means anything in this world will acknowledge that science does not disprove God. Science nowhere disproves Creation according to Genesis and it doesn't claim to. If this article claims that, then it is sub-par academics. SAE (talk) 19:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow. I rest my case. Hans Adler 20:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Great comeback! Try another exclamatory, it might help you further. SAE (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

(Adler→) As I have asked Cush, did we read the same book? You refer to "this author," when in fact the quotes come from several articles, each by a different author in the book Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth. Several authors, each of whom provided a "Reading," are quoted. Some points they collectively make are that (a) Mythologists cannot agree on the theory of myth. "There are disagreements about what myth is and how it should be analyzed." Who are we, then, to force that term onto the Genesis Creation article? (b) the word is loaded with emotional overtones. Does that make it appropriate as the only way to describe Creation according to Genesis? (c) In "terminological demytheologisation," the actual word "myth" is avoided but the account, the story itself is retained. That is precisely what one "side" has proposed for this article. (d) Ergo, "myth" is not a well-understood term, contrary to what another "side" has claimed in this debate. "Nowadays, myth can encompass everything from a simple-minded, fictitious, and mendacious impression to an absolutely true and sacred account, the very reality of which far outweighs anything that ordinary everyday life can offer." (e) "Myth is undoubtedly a very complex concept." How, then, is it the only appropriate choice for the title and first paragraph of this article?─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Mathematicians cannot agree on a definition of the term number. So far as I know most mathematicians wouldn't even bother trying to define it. Who are we, then, to force that term onto the 1 (number), irrational number, complex number, hypercomplex number or aleph number articles? The reality is that reliable sources generally agree that the topic of these articles is that of number, though I can probably find reliable sources that disagree in the case of some of the example articles I linked (finitism?). What say you? Ben (talk) 23:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Though some mathematicians may debate some of the finer points of the definition of "number" in fields such as abstract algebra, group theory, complex analysis, etc., I've never heard of any disagreement regarding the definition of number in the plain, common sense usage employed in education including college coursework up through Calculus, Differential Equations, Statistics, etc. For the common person, including most physicicsts and engineers, there is not any ambiguity or negative connotation regarding the use of "number." There is a lot more ambiguity and disagreement in biologists' definition and use of the term "species" and exactly how the concept is defined often becomes readily apparent in advanced high school or early college course work. However, either point is something of a red herring in the present discussion, because in neither case is there much ambiguity in common (non-technical) usage, nor is their any perception of a negative connotation. In contrast, in most common usages, "myth" implies falsehood.Michael Courtney (talk) 03:14, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you missed my point: the lack of a generally agreed upon and precise definition of a term does not mean we shouldn't use the term (see AFA Prof01's point (a)), else we would have few words in the English language at our disposal. I'm still fairly sure there is no "generally agreed upon and precise definition" of the term number (I would like to be pointed to a discussion refuting me), but if my number example was a poor choice then I simply apologise. The above point still stands though and I'm sure you can come up with your own examples to convince yourself of its truth. Finally, a word having a negative connotation associated with it isn't a reason for avoiding it either: an example that comes to mind is the term theory. At the very least it would (in general) be a highly subjective criterion to work with, and I have no doubt that it would be unworkable. Cheers, Ben (talk) 04:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Didn't you have algebra at university??

But back to "myth". King Arthur is a myth. So is King Solomon. Why? Because there is no extrabiblical confirmation for his existence. All there is is the single biblical source that narrates who this Solomon/Jedidiyah allegedly was and what he allegedly did. But he is absent from the archaeological and historical record. There are no artifacts bearing his name, and the events narrated in the bible for his reign do not match the nonbiblical historical record for the time period and geographical area in question. The same is true for everything else in the Bible before Solomon, including the very beginning of Genesis about the creation of the world. There is nothing that gives these biblical tales veracity. Nothing.

So, "myth" to express falsehood, or at least historical inaccuracy is acceptable as a designation for what is at issue in this article. This does not touch, however, what religious truths the Genesis narrative may contain. There is just no literal truth involved. There are so many creation myths in the world that it is completely ridiculous to expect Misplaced Pages to treat the judeochristian one differently and give it an elevated place only to please the fundamentalists. Misplaced Pages must treat all religious stories about the origin of the world in the same way. CUSH 10:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Is that true about Solomon? If so, I didn't know that. I'd love to see an article about which parts of the Bible are actually backed up by non-biblical evidence. --King Öomie 14:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, please read before questioning Cush's motives further- Appeal to motive. It's not enough to say "Oh, you're only arguing this because of X". This statement does not debunk Cush's thesis- it merely dismisses it. You can hold an 'unsavory' base point for your arguments without being wrong. --King Öomie 14:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Myth or story?

WTF ???

Bias and bad faith

Side note on this discussion

Moving forward (derailed)

Now that the second page move request has closed, I think we can move forward. A few things that I can think of that need doing are:

• Further development/refinement of the FAQ at the top of the page.
• Rewrite the introductory sentence. It should be absolutely clear what the term myth means from the start.
• Develop a section on the classification of Genesis 1-2 as myth, including the history of, disagreement with, etc, this classification.

I'm sure there are more suggestions, so feel free to list them. Perhaps one point at a time can be dealt with by creating a section on this talk page and chipping away at it. Additional thoughts? Cheers, Ben (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ben, ignoring input, moving input, or archiving input, does not help us move forward. This is a COLLABORATIVE effort. You need to include the relevant POVs, but shut them down. Have a little patience. I'm getting information from the other (silenced) participants to find out what is needed to have a stable article. Collaboration seems slower, but it ultimately is the only thing that sticks.EGMichaels (talk) 12:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ben, the only thought I have at the moment is that no consensus was reached to move OR retain the page title. The last two statements on the subject were mine and the person who archived the discussion, and both of us desired a less contentious title than either option.

This subject will keep coming up and creating way too much overhead. It's primarily the reason that I'm hesitant to edit articles on religious subjects -- too many editors are concerned with establishing or debunking someone's absolute truth.

As for your third point below, all meaningful accounts can be classified as myth, whether true, false, or happening right in front of your eyes. If it is a paradigm establishing event, it is mythical (I'm using the literary application of the term, but I'm into story structure). A fiction can be mythic. History can be mythic. Even a disagreement can become mythic because of the meaning created in the conflict itself. Even worse, however, is the problem of editors trying to establish within the article itself what is "myth" and what is "history" as if they are mutually exclusive. Isn't that assuming that no "myth" can be truly "historical?" And isn't that betraying the very meaning of "myth" you and I have collectively denounced?

Rather than closing the problem here, you are multiplying it in your very proposal.EGMichaels (talk) 03:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

We went through an RM to get the page where it is now, and it succeeded. A new RM was created to move the page back and failed. I would say those two events constitute consensus for the current page title. I would welcome you to disagree, but, as this sections title hints at, I think it's time to move forward. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I wrote too little in my first post. I've clarified the third point since I think you misunderstood. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. It's now worse. The classification of the Genesis account as myth will force you to argue in the article itself whether or why something is true or false. As for the RMs success or failure, my concern is that both titles are failures of true stability. The level of contention brought on either side and the length of history on this means that you will encounter this problem long after I'm gone (and others will encounter it long after you are gone) until a truly stable title is explored. While we don't have to do it now, we definitely need to keep this in mind for the next time (or the time after, or the time after). Sooner or later both sides will sit down and come up with a title they can live with. Simply subduing the opposition will not do the trick. And, even more to the point, pulling a fiat induced title into an active eploration on the article page itself will only multiply the problems. I don't care enough to beat this. But I don't care enough to pursue a course that will keep blowing up in our faces when another -- neutral -- alternative may be easily available. Do you WANT collaboration of all points of view? You seem decent enough. I would think so. Then trust me -- this isn't going to work without a LOT of elbow grease and constant babysitting. You're a braver man than I.EGMichaels (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

My suggestion was and is "Genesis chapters one and two." It does not even touch upon the questions this issue has been about. It makes no mention of creation; it makes no mention of myth. It avoids all additional commentary. It only identifies the article. Bus stop (talk) 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I think your belief that the title question is closed is entirely misplaced. The last RM close specificly leaves the matter open, & the two discussions are very odd. The first one, only open 4 days, had only one explicit "support" vote, apart from the nom also voting without disclosing that fact (did the closing admin realize?). The stated rationale for that support is just wierd, and other comments, such as Dab's, clearly favoured a Keep. The second one was arguably actually a "no consensus", despite the clear balance of votes in favour of a move, but defaulting to the dubious previous decision leaves the whole matter open, imo. Does Deletion Review take requested moves cases? That would be the best next step. Johnbod (talk) 04:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Balance of votes... WP isn't a democracy... Consensus is judged by quality of a position not by number of votes... you know the drill. What is another RM or RFC going to accomplish in so short of time? The above discussions will just be cut and pasted, someone will canvass for a change back to the original article title, a dozen editors will come in and write I agree that the article should be changed and nothing more and some folks will think that this actually counts towards consensus and then call the next closed RM or RFC to question as well. I'm not saying that the title is here and it's here to stay, but we can't expect different outcome in so short a time without any further development in the article, more research, fresh perspective etc... How about we just focus on improving the article, FAQ etc... through standard BRD for a month or so before we open up the can of worms again. Nefariousski (talk) 05:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You can't very well improve an article without trying to reach a consensus. I see people trying to do anything but that here. An article has to have an agreed upon premise before people can figure out just WHAT to improve. The sudden closure and claim of victory with people so clearly troubled on one side and at least one person so clearly troubling on the other negates any consensus. You may create an article that pedantically argues in favor of "myth" to such an extent that people finally either come in to delete the entire article, or else create some kind of fork with another. Imagine that you mythologize this article and then someone else has a master article detailing the chapters of Genesis in a context that "myth" doesn't really serve the purpose of a literary summary. Then what? Then you have a finely constructed article that is so specialized that the only people who ever want to look at it are people who already share the singular POV shoehorned into the article.

I'm not comfortable wasting a lot of work trying to marginalize an article that should have a wider audience. The Genesis Creation Account is too notable and well known to be limited in this way. Should "myth" be treated in the article? Absolutely. Should the ENTIRE article be a pedantic attempt to force "myth" down the throats of half the world's population? uh, no. There is clearly no consensus for the current title. Maybe not one for the original one either. Neither side should be so married to their POV that they marginalize themselves into creating an unstable article. It's a huge waste of everyone's time, including your own.

Just take a look at the latest edits in the lede. Ben is forcing a series of sloppily written lines that can have only one purpose: pedantic editing. "The Genesis creation myth is the account of how the world was created according to the first two chapters of the Bible's Book of Genesis. It is made up of two consecutive narratives:"

Why have "myth" when you have "account"? Why have "account" if "myth" is the best word? A term should be clear enough to stand on it's own. "The book of Genesis opens with an account detailing the creation of the world in two consecutive narratives." That's tighter, clearer, less pedantic, and less repetitious. The only reason we can't have a well written article here is that we are trying to "move forward" from a pedantic premise.

As I've indicated before, I PERSONALLY have no problem with "myth". It does not offend me in the least. But no serious Misplaced Pages editor tries to alienate half of his readers and co-editors. Let's be serious here. There is no consensus for either title, and neither half of the planet should be marginalized. The article should represent BOTH POVs related here, and accurately report who says what and why. The current title, fine with me PERSONALLY, is an editorial fiasco.EGMichaels (talk) 09:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The time for discussing page titles is over. There have been two Requested Moves and an RFC processed and here we are at this article title. You can loathe that fact all you like, you rationalise it as "odd", "no consensus", whatever you want, but leave it off this talk page for at least the next few months. If participation in the development of this article is not something you want to do while it's titled this way, then don't. No-one is forcing you to be here, but it is time to move on from the article title. Ben (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It's never time to proceed without consensus. Is it time to leave you alone with a fair warning that you are wasting your time? Perhaps. I do have a life. But keep in mind what you are doing: "we are forcing a fake consensus and telling you to shut up." That's not stable editing. Your "time to move forward" reminds me of an old southern expression: "the hurrieder you go, the behinder you get." Try to get consensus. A real one -- not a fake one -- and you greatly expand both your editorial work force, and your audience... with a tenth of the effort.EGMichaels (talk) 09:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I've already noted that the first sentence needs to be rewritten, it's the second point at the top of this thread. Remember? It was just before you derailed this thread. Your assumption that half the planet (presumably every Christian and Jew and then some?) have a POV that would be against using the term myth is ridiculous. Your personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith are appalling. Enjoy that life of yours, ok? Ben (talk) 09:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ben, you invited help rewriting the first sentence and then undid whoever tried to help rewrite it without comment. You need to make up your mind. You're also trying to get help moving forward, and I'm actually TRYING to help you here. Having written a number of books, I can tell you that nothing is more painful than having 300 pages of manuscript that paints you into a dead end because of a bad premise. As I mentioned, I PERSONALLY have no trouble with "myth." And yet you say I "loathe" this somehow. The only trouble I have here is a certain POV pedantically trying to silence all dissent -- and now you're apparently trying to silence me for pointing out that you are silencing others. That's not collaborative editing, it's not moving forward, and it's not what Misplaced Pages is all about. This is a NPOV resource meant to give people information and citations they can use for further research in whatever direction their interest lies. Rather than derailing this thread, I'm trying to help you do exactly what you claim to want: move forward. Well, Ben, you are stuck in a cul-de-sac. The best way "forward" to the interstate is to "back out of your own driveway and get to the common road." Try it. Collaboration is pretty painless, and requires far less words like "loathe" and "get a life." Play well with others, and you'll have a nicer sandbox.EGMichaels (talk) 10:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Handy link to the "help" I undid for anyone wanting to check up on the first sentence in EGMichaels comment. The rest of the comment is of the same calibre as the first sentence. Ben (talk) 10:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly -- someone reworded a line that has caused (apparently) MONTHS of contention and megabytes of discussion. That looks like real help to me, and your threats to the person about "vandalism" were misplaced in this instance. I DO note that the individual did appear to vandalize an unrelated page, but your own threats on his talk page were not appropriate in this instance. Let's leave out the "loathe" comments (about a word I would PERSONALLY prefer if it weren't causing trouble), as well as the "appaling" comments about my attempts to foster real collaboration. And let's please stop threatening IP users when they aren't actually vandalizing our own article. You really do need to slow down a bit and seek COLLABORATION. That involves OTHER POVs. Your "enemies" here are really your best friends. Heck, I originally came in here supporting your own title (until I realized what a disaster it was). I was big enough to admit I was wrong. It didn't hurt at all (not even when you were jumping up and down about it).EGMichaels (talk) 10:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Enough. You've gone straight into personal attacks here, and that is not welcome. Consider this a warning. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, Hand. We need people helping keep things civil. Please visit my talk page and help us brainstorm. I'm not allowing personal attacks there and will delete them when they occur. Neither side is allowed to attack the other.EGMichaels (talk) 16:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The warning was directed at you, EGM. And I would suggest you also be wary of WP:OWN. You've made several statements here that you "will not allow" things, and generally have given a very combative attitude. I would personally suggest you back off for a bit, as you seem to be taking this rather personally. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You missed, Hand. I'm the editor who doesn't care which title is used, since "myth" and "story" are synonyms. I'm also the editor trying to keep this offline in a civil forum where neither side is allowed to attack the other. I've offered to referee. If you'll look at my talk page, you'll note that so far "Genesis creation myth" has the greatest number of interested backers. It's not helpful to warn the wrong editor -- I'm not the one using terms like "loathe". Let's keep it civil, and please come to give your two cents. Right now your "side" has the most going for it. EGMichaels (talk) 17:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

"The wrong editor," eh? I'm sensing a lot of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. The discussion is about this article, and should remain here. I've made my stance clear already, and have no intention of feeding into your ownership issues. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I for one will immediately revert / fix any colloquial usage in the article or any attempt to use any informal synonyms. My stance isn't one of dogma or belief, it's one of using correct and precise terminology that is widely used and accepted in academic, encyclopedic, scholarly and theological circles in addition to ensuring uniform use across articles that discuss the different beliefs of different people (I don't just aim for proper usage on this article). Nefariousski (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, to quote other people from your side of the argument: move on already. We've discussed this already, and your view of 'formal usage' is clearly not the world-wide academic view. I for one, will continue to immediately revert/fix, any pov that is continually being pushed through here.

Talkpage Roundtable

I'm creating a neutral place to discuss the pros and cons of each option on my talk page. Mythologizers and non mythologizers are each welcome, but only in certain sections of the discussion. I think I can referee the organization of the page and give people some leeway.

My volunteering to be referee doesn't mean that I'm neutral. It just means that you all have a single person to blame if the waters get muddied. Everyone will KNOW it's completely my fault.

Another advantage is that we can move some of the discussion off this talk page and allow other subjects and sections to be discussed. There are itemizations that may need to be discussed about specific subtopics that are being ignored because of the title debate.

First, I want to know what options there are (a brainstorming section) and then the merits and demerits of each. The rules are my rules, but I'm being fair. I want to know what all the options are, what the real interest is, and what the merits of the various options are.

It may well be that those who are most interested in changing the title are least interested in building the article. If that's the case, then the weight of title choice should be for the editors who plan to hang around. I do NOT plan to hang around for a long time, and so I really have no stake either way.

But it does seem that the discussion has been unfair to both the article (too much clutter) and the dissenting view (too little regard). Hopefully taking it off page for a few days can enable us to remove the clutter and come back with a summary statement that ALL sides can agree with.EGMichaels (talk) 15:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

This discussion has already happened three times via an RFC and two RMs. You are of course welcome to discuss whatever you want on your talk page, but it will likely get little input from people who have had to justify the use of the term myth through those three discussions. It is also unreasonable to expect that input from people after three long discussions. I repeat my earlier suggestion, leave it for a few months. At this point any attempts to open another RM, RFC, or whatever are likely to be seen as disruptive per WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Cheers, Ben (talk) 16:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree discussion needs to continue. I would like the admin who closed this article to give more explanation. This is what it says here, "However, sometimes a requested move is filed in response to a recent move from a long existing name that cannot be undone without administrative help. Therefore, if the closer feels that no consensus has been reached, they may move the article back to the most recent stable name. In the event what the most recent stable name is is itself a matter of dispute, closers are expected to use their own judgment in determining the proper destination. If a discussion is ongoing or has not reached a reasonable conclusion, you may elect to re-list the discussion, though it is entirely optional and up to the closer." I would like to know these 2 things from the closing admins:

* they chose not to move it back to the "most recent stable name." Why?

* they chose not to "elect to re-list the discussion." Why? Cheers, SAE (talk) 16:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Since the current article title was the result of an RM, it is the stable version. The current title is not the result of a drive-by move, which is what the text you're quoting is referring to. Ben (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

If you think the result of the page name move and the past week is "stable" then you live in a different world then me. SAE (talk) 16:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I asked above about whether the RfC was widely publicised. I received a correction on my mistaken understanding of WP:CENT (for which I am grateful) but no response on my main point. Was it widely publicised? WikiProjects? Signpost? VP? --Dweller (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not trying to do an RM or an RFC. I'm trying to make a safe place to clear the air without cluttering this page. And in the process I'd like to catalogue the options and pros and cons for each. Part of the problem in this "discussion" so far is that people start arguing before they finish brainstorming. You have to look at the options first before you really know what you are discussing. For the record, I do see pros in the use of "myth." But there's no way to get a consensus if people aren't allowed to be included and fully listened to. As I said, you are welcome to list the pros and cons. I'm not going to allow argumentation -- just LISTING of what and why. We can use it for a reference later if another RM or RFC comes up.EGMichaels (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

* Con : Myth as it is used in the academic world continues to have the strong connotation of fable and legend. In a lay man's sense, it almost 100% means untruth. Editors here arguing for myth have shown that this too is their clear understanding of the word myth. Two reasons why myth cannot be used on a living religion, and at the same time remain npov. SAE (talk) 16:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

People keep making this claim, and I'm calling shenanigans. I support "myth" as the most neutral term. Second, "consensus" does not mean "unanimous," and it would do people well to quit saying that people aren't being listened to. The arguments were heard twice, and nothing has come of it. We've driven this subject into the dirt, and shouldn't have to do it again so soon. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Three times, an RFC and two RMs. Ben (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

@ Hand "We've driven this subject into the dirt, and shouldn't have to do it again so soon" -> then don't. it's this easy: stop refreshing this talk page. Now, I hope you're not trying to freeze a copy of this article right where you want it... that's not it, right? For a user that hasn't contributed at all to this article (except a few reverts in the last week that you call pov), I wonder why you are so vocal on the talk page that it not receive any further edits or discussion. SAE (talk) 17:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I came here because of concerns brought up at a notice board. Thanks for not WP:AGFing. That said, are you expecting us to debate this ad infinitum? At a certain point, we need to stop and get back to improving the article. If folks want to bring up the debate again in a few months, fine. Consensus can change, but right now it seems like the anti-myth folks want to sledgehammer their way into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Where are you coming from? Please do not accuse me improperly. Do I expect to debate this ad infinitum? No. But is there consensus? No. What makes you think we're done discussing? You, Tillman, and anyone else who says, 'move on' at this point seem just to be attempting to push your pov through. There is not yet consencus, and therefore the discussion will continue. If you are tired of it, than remove this page from your watchlist. SAE (talk) 18:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm coming from you making snide accusations that I'm here just to push an agenda. Again, consensus does not mean "everyone agrees." We've had this discussion three times already. I'm not going to just run away because you don't like me. I don't see any point in beating a dead horse. I've yet to see a reason for changing the article's name except "I don't like it" or "It might offend someone," neither of which is valid. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi folks -- let's please get this off of the article page. It's not constructive. Everyone knows that "myth" is a synonym for "story", and those who truly think so don't care which word is used. I'm one of those who doesn't care. If "myth" is a synonym for story, then "story" is a synonym for myth, and they are thus interchangable. However, it is certainly clear that some folks feel very strongly about this, and those who do (on both sides) are thus demonstrating that they do NOT regard them as interchangable. As Hand said, there may BE no possible consensus -- but (as Ben said), it's been beaten to death HERE and THIS page needs a rest.

As I said, I personally DO regard "myth" and "story" to be synonymous in the academic sense, and therefore interchangable. I therefore do not care which is used. But I DO care about civility and clutter on an article page. Let's move this offline and see if consensus is possible or impossible. If impossible, then the editors with the most permanent interest (possibly the "myth" side) should prevail.EGMichaels (talk) 16:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, you seem to misunderstand what WP:CONSENSUS means. It does not mean "agreement by all parties." If you agree that there is no further point to debating on this talk page, then the matter is closed. User talk pages are not meant for forking article discussion. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hand, you may want to discuss this with Ben first. Do you REALLY want me to move all of this here? I'll be happy to do so if you both insist. But I think Ben wants to give the page a break and I think he's right.

Let me know which you want -- a disussion here or there. If here, I'll move everything here. So far, your side has the most support. But that would simply be because there are so many other options splitting people's views.EGMichaels (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

If you and Ben want to discuss it, that's fine. But it would not be a centralized debate for the article, just two users discussing the article. It would have no bearing on establishing consensus here. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

t would not be a centralized debate for the article .. t would have no bearing on establishing consensus here. <--- This is correct in so many ways. Though don't interpret that as an invitation to continue talking about the article title here. As I said above, I think it's time to move on. Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ben, Hand -- you two can't have it both ways. Either the eight editors who've posted on my talk page are allowed to be here or there. But you can't just say, "You aren't allowed here or there either." You can own an article, but not a user page. Again, please make up your mind WHICH you want, and I'll have the postings listed either place you two agree on.EGMichaels (talk) 17:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

EG, Before we continue this further would you do me the favor of reading through the FAQ and the linked policy pages. Particularly Q3 and Q2. We need to steer debate away from the generic term "MYTH" and focus on the term "Creation Myth" They have two distinct meanings different from one another and never once is "myth" used alone (see electoral college vs. college example). Arguements regarding the definitions of the word "myth" should be ignored all together per Q3, arguments that amount to an appeal to sensitivity or emotion should be generally ignored per Q2. Nefariousski (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Nef. Thanks for the suggestion!

"Creation myth is a formal and proper term used by a wide range of academics and scholars (religious and secular) to define a supernatural account of how life, Earth and everything in general came into existence. This term does not imply falsehood unlike the way that the informal use of the word myth can."

Agreed. It should be used in this way. I think the concern is that it may not be used in this way. There's really no way to know with the heated nature of this talk page, and in fact the very heat of that nature gives me concerns that neither side is truly observing this ideal. A good litmus test is to find another word synonymous with the intended meaning. Those at peace with the synonym really are observing this first point. Those insisting on "myth" probably aren't using the term in this neutral sense. I'm personally fine with "myth", but I'm also fine with "story" as a synonym. I'm concerned that I may be in the minority (on either side) here.

"Misplaced Pages:WTA#Myth and Legend clearly states that myth in its informal sense should not be used but also clearly states that we should treat all faiths and beliefs the same (e.g. Not referring to a Christian belief on the one hand and a Hindu myth on the other). Thus all faith's creation myths are referred to as such in their respective articles as well."

As I've noted both here and on my talk page, consistency with other articles, including the "Creation Myths" article is an argument in favor of the use of the term. If you'll look on the chart on my talk page, I've put my name in the "Pro" section of "myth" for this reason. Nevertheless, Hindu "myths" are not listed in this article, and INTERNAL to this article, "myth" is therefore not required. A synonym is allowed (such as "story" or "account"). The Con (as I've listed for these two alternatives) is that all linking articles would have to be edited so that they read "Genesis creation myth" in the context of other creation myths while still linking with this present article -- regardless of how it is titled. Further, it has been proposed (I think it was Avi) that all living religions be treated the same, and I've made a comment to this effect on the talk page of your link above. "Myths" could be used for dead religions, and "Beliefs" or "Stories" could be used for living ones. I don't think anyone would be confused and suddenly convert to Hinduism/Christianity/Taoism (at the same time!) because the word "story" is used in all three. Wikireaders are more intelligent than that!

"Misplaced Pages:RNPOV states "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." This is also the main thrust of WP:NOT#CENSORED."

I think the concern is not to censor terms, but to use equally reliable terms or synonyms. It is a known convention in the real world to use "beliefs" or "accounts" or "narratives" or "stories" in place of "myth" when dealing with living religions. I think even Strunk and White would agree.

Ultimately the catch 22 here is the refusal to use synonyms. This was the first red flag for me. I initially came in promoting "myth" and am still fine with "myth" as long as the FAQs you've pointed out are truly being used. But the proof that they are NOT being followed is the refusal to substitute a synonym. If you cannot use a synonym, then you absolutely do NOT mean that synonym. I'm personally fine with "story" precisely because I DO mean it as a synonym for "myth." But my editorial concern with the title stems from the fact that I'm very much in the minority with that dual comfort level. In other words, the mutual discomfort on both sides is proof enough that neither side is following your FAQ sheet. And if not, then we need to use a synonym for what that FAQ claims to MEAN(instead of what it claims to SAY).EGMichaels (talk) 18:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The refusal to use synonyms comes from the fact that no other religious creation myth on Misplaced Pages uses a different term. We try to keep similar articles using similar name systems, per Misplaced Pages:Article titles. Using a synonym sets Judeo-Christian religions apart from the other religions on Misplaced Pages, thus creating an appearance of favoritism. If this is the crux of your issue, what you need is to propose a guideline to get all these articles named the same, not keep hammering on a single article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

EG, you really need to give up your ownership issues. I never said "they aren't allowed," but that discussions on a User talk page have no bearing on an Article talk page's consensus. You're free to keep discussing it on your talk page and here if you want, but debates on your talk page cannot be considered for determining consensus here. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I'm willing to move all of those signed comments from eight editors here if you prefer. But then we'll have a problem with the real ownership issue, trying to prevent discussion both here AND there. Please list a place where those editors will be listened to, and I'll comply.EGMichaels (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Facepalm How many times are you not going to listen to what I'm saying? I'm not owning anything, I'm telling you how Misplaced Pages works. If they want to discuss it there, then come back here and present their argument, fine. I'm saying that if the discussion happens there, they still have to reach consensus with editors here afterwards. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Now I'm confused about what you're saying. You're talking about Myth, the scholarly term, and Myth, meaning 'lie', like they're homonyms, not different definitions to the same word. If the context works for the first one better than the second, whatever secret intentions a given editor has don't matter. It's not like he's adding <!-- heh heh, suckers --> to the page every time he types it. No additional meaning coats the term beyond its context. It sounds like you're saying "editors have to promise they won't MEAN one thing" instead of "editors have to promise that the context will point to the SCHOLARLY definition"- which it currently does. --King Öomie 18:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The question is what the title should be. The title should not have larded into it anyone's pet perception on what Genesis might be. I hear from no one that the title should invoke the holiness or the sacredness of this tract from a central document to one or more religions. But I hear numerous editors calling for a title that identifies that document and at the same time proclaims its inaccuracy. Anyone familiar with Misplaced Pages should realize right away that we (editors) are not supposed to be utilizing Misplaced Pages to promote our own personal views. Scientific evidence may demolish any shred of credibility this religious document may have. But the religious document itself should be identified in value neutral language. It is a story. There is no word in the English language more natural than "story" for referring to to the verbal description contained in Genesis chapters one and two. Myth implies spuriousness. Is it Misplaced Pages's role to take a stand on matters only tangentially related to the identification of this article? I don't think so. I think our sole responsibility is identifying the subject of this article. Some word should probably be used to refer to the contents of Genesis as covered by our article, and "story" does this with the least fanfare. "Story" accomplishes this without applying any "spin" vis-a-vis a science/religion debate that should play no role in naming this article. Bus stop (talk) 18:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

No, that's your question. And that's Cush. --King Öomie 18:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

"Myth implies spuriousness."

Good god. Is it POSSIBLE to win this whack-a-mole game? --King Öomie 18:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

King -- all I'm saying is that the scholarly use is strongly (though not totally) synonymous with "story." The only advantage to "myth" is the greater specificity of meaning (to include something both supernatural and not objectively true). Personally, I like the word "myth" better than "story" because a myth connotes something SUBJECTIVELY true -- i.e. a story with meaning. However, as I've noted, my comfort level with the synonym is in such apparent minority, that it appears that neither side is USING the term as a synonym for story. If I call a woman a lady (and I mean a synonym for woman), and she objects to the term because she's no one's wife -- I'll shrug my shoulders and call her whatever synonym she likes... because I truly MEAN the synonym. As I said before, it's a catch 22. Only those comfortable with BOTH "story" and "myth" are in compliance with the FAQ. Right now I'm the only person with that comfort. And you?EGMichaels (talk) 18:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Busstop, Genesis being a "Creation myth" is no more someone's pet perception than an alligator being a reptile. As for "story" i'd like you to compare the definitions of "creation myth" and "Story" and see which one has more of a fairy tale, false spin to it. There's no alternative definition for "creation myth" that implies fiction or falsehood as there is with story.

EG, I for one will immediately revert / fix any colloquial usage in the article or any attempt to use any informal synonyms. My stance isn't one of dogma or belief, it's one of using correct and precise terminology that is widely used and accepted in academic, encyclopedic, scholarly and theological circles in addition to ensuring uniform use across articles that discuss the different beliefs of different people (I don't just aim for proper usage on this article). Nefariousski (talk) 18:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Nef -- I've noticed that you were doing that and appreciate that. In any case, I think we can satisy Ben's request that we minimize the impact here, and Hands requirement that everyone be ignored unless posting here. We can finish the categorization on my talk page and make a clear summary listing of each pro and con -- and people can just sign their own views with a quick four tildes once it moves here. But there are more people to hear from. Right now "Genesis creation myth" has a plurality, but not a majority. While consensis is not necessarily a vote, people's concerns should be clearly addressed and listened to, rather than dismissed out of hand. I'd like to make sure you're fairly represented in the summary as well. I wouldn't want the summary list to ignore the "myth" points.EGMichaels (talk) 19:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You've set up a false dichotomy here. I'm not comfortable with "story" because it goes against WP:TITLE by making this Abrahamaic religious creation myth stand apart from all the other creation myths on Misplaced Pages. On Misplaced Pages, we don't just "shrug our shoulders" for folks because they personally take offense to a scholarly term used in a scholarly manner. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Personally, after you did that, I'd be wondering why it is that there are 40 "ladies" in the room, and one "Ma'am". --King Öomie 19:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

LOL King!!! :-)

Hand, it's not being used in a scholarly way if its synonym gets THIS much opposition. Methinks thou dost protest too much.EGMichaels (talk) 19:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Pot, meet kettle. You haven't assumed good faith since you started editing here. And I'm rapidly running out of good faith in you. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

That's an interesting statement, since I've seen a lot of good faith here (take a look at my talk page). My problem is that a lot of good faith editors are being told to sit down and shut up with "let's move on" or "this is a dead horse" etc. All I'm suggesting is that everything be clearly expressed, so that you at least know WHAT you are disagreeing with (and they know the same concerning you). And you have a problem with this because...??? Maybe I missed it. I'm saying everyone should be fairly considered, systematically presented, and neutrally reflected in the article. Well, that's just normal Misplaced Pages stuff. Granted, it seems abnormal here, but that's not my problem.EGMichaels (talk) 19:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm tired of banging my head into your wall, so this will be my last reply to this thread. We've hashed and re-hashed this issue several times already. It's in the archives, hell it's on this very page. If people don't want to be bothered to read the history of this debate, I don't know what to tell them. It's a dead horse because we've beaten it to death and nothing new has come of it. All I'm saying is let it be, and we can revisit it at a later time (hopefully when people have something new to contribute). I have a problem with people arguing for argument's sake, because it's disruptive to actually getting anything done. At a certain point, you need to put the stick down and work on something productive. But, some people seem to think that making the same arguments repeatedly is "discussing" things. As an example, see Bus Stop's comments below. We've already pointed out Misplaced Pages:Article naming, the fact that "creation myth" is neutral naming, among numerous other points, but it's the same old same old from him. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hand -- that's why we're systemetizing the options, pros, and cons on my talk page. When we are finished, we can present the summary here, and everyone interested can put their four tildes on it. It's obvious that at least one side isn't listening (and maybe both). So, it's useful to at least explore clearly and accurately what everyone is saying in an accessible format. The problem is that neither side is satisfied, and neither side (you included) feels like they've been heard -- and you are all correct about that! In any case, your own view still has a plurality. Relax, consensus and mutual listening CAN be achieved, even on a religion page (personally, I have a love/hate relationship with religious pages for that very reason: no one listens to each other... they're all afraid for their soul or brain).EGMichaels (talk) 19:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The title and the body of the article are two different things. What is good for the body of the article is not necessarily good for the title. The title merely introduces a topic. It should do so in the most plain manner possible. The title, as far as possible, should find its language in common terminology. "Story" is an especially common term in English. It also has the added benefit of being equally applicable to that which is true and that which is false. The reader doesn't come to the article to have their preexisting views supported or challenged, and the right title should reflect this. The right title should be a reflection of the open-mindedness that Misplaced Pages assumes to characterize its readers. Bus stop (talk) 19:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Story is also an incredibly imprecise term that is often defined as Fiction (feel free to google the definition). "Creation Myth" on the other hand is very precise, only has one definition and does not imply any falsehood, or make any value judgement regarding truth one way or the other It is completely value neutral it just lists the simple boring facts. Additionally it is a common term across faiths which helps categorize this article and also keeps it in line with the vast majority of other encyclopedic sources and academic / scholarly research and literature. Nefariousski (talk) 19:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Nef, if you were right, then the atheists would be demanding "story" and the theists would be demanding "myth." Er.... doesn't seem to be happening that way. Chin up! It WILL be okay.EGMichaels (talk) 19:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not OK to assume bad faith in your opponents so long as there are perfectly fine alternative explanations for a phenomenon. In this case, a bunch of biblical literalists or sympathisers of such started this whole affair with an absurd attack against use of the correct technical term "creation myth" in the lead. It seems quite possible to me that they were influenced by a belief in Misplaced Pages's "liberal bias" and motivated by assumptions of bad faith. Since there is nothing wrong with the term and they used an invalid argument against it (namely that any choice of words that implies the obvious and uncontroversial fact that the story is not literally true is somehow POV) opposition from the opposite camp was absolutely predictable. Since they were pushing a fringe theory (creationism), the fringe noticeboard was notified. The attention drawn to this article led to the discovery of the problem with its title. Please note how this natural interpretation of events does not involve anyone's bad faith. Hans Adler 20:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hans Adler — are you conceding that there is a problem with the title? You say, "The attention drawn to this article led to the discovery of the problem with its title." I am not trying to speak on your behalf. I am merely asking you a question. Bus stop (talk) 00:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Let me see... it's not ok to assume bad faith (agreed), but somehow it is perfectly fine to assume "a bunch of literalists" (not the ones posting on my talk page... at least half of whom -- including me -- don't even believe the account) or "absurd attacks" (again, all I see are expressions of neutrality and concerns against assumption of truth as well as falsehood) or "invalid arguments" (NPOV isn't invalid here) or "fringe theory" (neutrality expressed from disbelievers on my talk page do not resemble anything fringe). Uh huh. Gotcha. Feel free to check out the equal concerns against "account" (because it implies truth).EGMichaels (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

EG, This isn't athiests vs theists. You are a prime example of someone of faith who is at least attempting to look at both sides. Lets for one minute remove obvious polarizing editors from the equation (on both sides) and you have those who for reasons stated in the FAQ prefer a precise, formally defined term "creation myth" (Not Myth as a stand alone term) and policy that supports said usage. Then you have those who support some alternative because they either don't grasp the concept that "Creation Myth" doesn't imply falsehood and they keep pushing on the component word "myth" (see the electoral college isn't an institute of higher learning because it contains the word college example) or they oppose the usage on a basis of feeling it is somehow offensive and that we can't expect users to understand that the "myth" in "creation myth" isn't being used informally (despite definitions, footnotes, wikilinks to the main CM page, a FAQ etc...). Nefariousski (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

EGMichaels, here are some aspects you seem to have missed:

• I said "biblical literalists or sympathisers". Having been accused of being a homeopath on Talk:Homeopathy for trying to keep the insult "quackery" out of that article, I added the second part for a reason. (Just like the US has an unusually large number of biblical literalists, Germany has an unusally large number of homeopathy fans. This is an important factor for deciding how respectful to be when dealing with the respective fringe theory, resulting in conflicts even between non-believers from different cultural backgrounds.)
• Apart from that, it appears to me that Historian2007 and Til Eulenspiegel are openly creationist. (Correct me if I am wrong.) These seemed to be among the most active opponents of the term "creation myth" when I first came to this article.
• As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, that Genesis isn't literally true is uncontroversial fact. Believe it or not, but that's how it is. If you don't believe it, get input from noticeboards. Saying that Genesis isn't literally true only touches WP:NPOV where it comes to matters of weight, see WP:UNDUE. It has been argued on this talk page that use of the term "creation myth" is POV because: (1) We only use it in bad faith to push an atheist POV (wrong). (2) It means "false creation story" (wrong). (3) It's a highly technical term (wrong) and therefore inappropriate (wrong). (4) The story might plausibly be just as literally true as the scientific view of the world's origin (wrong). How much more nonsense do you have to chain together before an argument becomes absurd?
• "Creation account" is transparently a formation designed to avoid the word "myth", which is otherwise standard in this context. I maintain that "account" does have inappropriate connotations of literal truth, in contrast to the appropriate connotations of folklore that "myth" has. The term "creation account" likely predates the realisation that Genesis contains no more than an example of a literary genre; nowadays the term functions as a euphemism that is still used only for the Judeo-Christian creation myth. I admit that as far as I know it is probably the standard way of referring to this particular creation myth in English (I know that it is in German), which is a symptom of a systemic bias of the English language. We might be able to have an intelligent debate about the interesting conflict between two Misplaced Pages principles: Use of standard English and NPOV. We might. But we are not having such a debate because some people insist on pursuing red herrings. Hans Adler 21:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Contemplating deleting your sig and taking credit for that post. --King Öomie 21:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Cant blame the guy, damn near everything we can say on this topic at this point has already been said a dozen times over by a dozen different editors, I've seen Gabbe use my Electoral College analogy a few times and so on. It gets boring just cutting and pasting your own previous comments ;) Nefariousski (talk) 23:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

We are not talking about the body of the article. No one has ever suggested that the term "creation myth" should not appear in the body of the article. The topic of this discussion is what the title of the article should be. Bus stop (talk) 00:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi folks -- sorry I've been tied up. Geeze, a lot more words trying to keep me from finding out what people want! Whatever it is, it must be crazy scary. ;-)

In any case, to your points:

Nef -- my faith is not an issue. My editorial concern is. If you really must know, I approach "myth" and "religion" from a Joseph Campbell perspective. Of course religion is mythical! EVERY paradigm is (including atheism). "Myth" is what Robert McKee calls the "archplot" -- which he defines as the pattern of the human mind. C. G. Jung regarded this pattern as the collective unconscious, and Erich Neumann argued that all myths reflect the drive of the human being to separate his individuality from that core of basic human instinct (in Jungian terms, this is individuism). This depth psychology is the monomyth expressed by James Joyce to be the pattern of all narratives.

And the Bible is a narrative.

Also to quote McKee, "biography is fiction; auto-biography is fantasy." Rather than being a true believer, I'm probably the most pure religious cynic you'll ever meet. I don't buy ANY of it -- not even the atheist stuff. If I had to choose between the Pope and Hawking, I'd pick Hawking in a nanosecond. But I also see limitations from the best of our theories, and I also see that all of them, no matter how tied or divorced from "reality" become "myth" as soon as our reptilian overgrowth brains get a hold of them and start processing ultimate reality into some kind of pattern that's supposed to make sense.

So there you have it. My supposed "sympathy" with faith is no more profound than my sympathy for your own positions -- which is why I've asked for input and fairness all around.

You folks remind me of a woman in the mountains of North Carolina who gasped in shock when she found out that I liked to watch Star Trek: "you don't actually BELIEVE all of that stuff do you?" Well, sure I do. I believe any well told tale with a controlling idea. The Bible is "true" precisely BECAUSE it is "mythical." It fits the pattern of the human mind and creates meaning for billions of people.

I believe in Captain Kirk when the storyform is well designed.

Let's get out of the sandbox, stop shouting at each other, and actually listen to what is needed here.

The Bible is "myth". I mean "myth", not in a neutral sense, but in a positive sense. If a movie lacks myth, I walk out of it. If a book lacks myth, I trash it -- and this is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to history and science. We are human beings trying to communicate with other human beings, and that can only be done through "myth."

I find, then, that for all of your protestations, the "myth" side of this disagreement is the most enslaved to myth. You folks are the true believers pronouncing from on high that only one term can be used. You are the ones trying to dictate what ultimate "truth" all readers MUST embrace. And you hide behind scholarly "norms" that were merely created by other Misplaced Pages editors on the manual of style pages. Well, I didn't learn to write from Misplaced Pages. I learned from real sources like Strunk and White (love that delightful little tome of Anglo-Saxon sensibilities).

Strunk and White counseled writers to avoid "myth" when dealing with a living religion. Why? Because real writers want their readers to get their point, and they won't do it if they won't read it. So, according to notable and reliable sources the Misplaced Pages manual of style is not infallible.

As I said, I regard the Genesis account to be a "story" of the highest sort: "myth". "Myth" is my greatest compliment.

But because I MEAN a compliment, I refuse to be so sloppy a writer that I'll alienate my audience too quick to see my point. Now, in your case you are still arguing, but I suspect that's not my fault. When I suggest that all sides should be fair, you argue. When I suggest that all sides should be listened to, you argue. When I express sympathy for the "myth" side AND the "story" side, I'm treated as a "theist sympathizer." What is that like, a Nazi sympathizer?

It seemed like I was pulling teeth yesterday when I was trying to get SOMEONE, ANYONE to state an objection to Cush's insistence that "myth" really is intended to cure readers of their childish theism.

And I have the "myth" side arguing that "myth" really does mean "story" in a specific scholarly sense -- and yet demonstrating that they don't actually believe that statement because they so profoundly argue against the very synonym they claim to mean!

Sorry, folks -- but the supposed fanatics on my talk page have expressed a concern that neither "myth" nor "account" be used in the title -- since "myth" connotes "lie" and "account" connotes "truth." The DENOTATIONS are the same, but the connotations are too assumptive in a title.

Are they right? Maybe, maybe not. But those saying they are not allowed to breathe their view are most profoundly wrong.

Although consensus is not built by sheer numbers, nor even unanimous agreement -- it is neither built by silencing all dissent.

What is this, the all republican congress of eight years ago, or the all democrat congress of today? Your "enemies" are your best friends.

And yes, you "myth" folks are the best friends of the "story" folks. You each have human limitations of perspective, and need each other to save yourselves from POV violations.

Nef -- it's not that the "story" folks don't understand that you mean "myth" in a neutral way. It's that they do understand that you do not. The proof? This very disagreement. The proof that you don't MEAN "story" is that you refuse to even CONSIDER "story." I have a "wife". She is my "lover." To me those are synonyms, and I'll smile at either choice. Were I to object, you'd have every reason to question the state of my marriage.

Hans -- I'm a sympathizer with "myth" as well. Sue me.

As for the openly creationist folks... you know what? We NEED their input to help keep this article accessible to other creationist readers. Does that mean we have to censor what we say? Hardly, but if we REALLY mean "story" when we say "myth" then why not use the term? If you asked about my "lover" in a public forum, I might request you use the term "wife" in order to avoid any misdirection. Unless you were trying to insult my marriage by implying something neither of us CLAIM to believe, then you'd simply smile and use the synonym that means the same thing.

Again, avoidance of a synonym proves that you do not MEAN that synonym -- you in fact mean the opposite.

As for "uncontroversial fact" -- hogwash. I don't believe Genesis is literally true, but I don't CARE either. Misplaced Pages doesn't care any more than I do. It's not designed as literal truth. There are two narratives overlaying a Babylonian construct meant to create a paradigm of how humans are to regard their deity. This patriarchal construct uses parallelism to the two stories to show that man's relationship with God (the first narrative) is the same as a spousal relationship (the second narrative).

But arguing "this is true!" or "no, you dumbhead, it's not!" keeps everyone too distracted to see what the story DOES say. It's quite a lovely narrative sequence, but you'd never know from THIS discussion.

I'm reminded of a writer's conference I was in, where we discussed the controlling idea of the Godfather ("love of family leads to life of crime" a delightful ironic twist). One person kept arguing that crime was a bad thing. Well, sure. That's the whole point of an ironic controlling idea.

If you'd stop shouting for a spell and listen, you'd figure out that the other editors are reflecting half of the potential audience who will never read your pronouncements from on high ("this is MYTH, you dumb readers!"). No writer worth his salt deliberately turns off his audience. Instead, he co opts that other side and uses the other person's favorite terms to communicate the point that the writer wanted them to get -- much the way I'm ATTEMPTING to use your own term here to get my point across. If I don't succeed -- at least I tried.

I don't see you trying. That might work on Misplaced Pages, because you don't need to actually sell your hard work. You get the same zero pennies for half an audience that you'd get for a whole one, so why should you care?

Well, you shouldn't, if you like to continually argue and stop out any dissent when other editors try to help you improve the article.

Who knows? Maybe myth REALLY IS the best word! But you'd never know if you didn't at least listen to the other side.

And finally, the people posting on my talk page didn't like "creation account" any more than "creation myth" on the grounds that both violated Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy. Go figure.EGMichaels (talk) 02:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This debate will not stop until a real consensus is found. Masterhomer 08:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This debate will not stop until everyone has understood that NPOV does not require us to pretend that the idea that everything in Genesis is literally true is reasonable. It isn't, and that's an uncontroversial fact. Hans Adler 10:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This debate will not stop until everyone has understood that you don't have to force-feed everyone your own pov. Lay the facts out as they lie -- this is the Creation according to the Book of Genesis -- then in the body of the article we lay out the two main points: some see this as myth, and some as sacred history. But as long as you feel your pov needs to be pushed (heavens forbid we leave the reader to come up with their own conclusion based on the evidence and arguments!), then we keep spinning our tires in the mud. SAE (talk) 13:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

SAE — I would add that there may even be more than "two main points." My argument goes beyond concerning itself with whether Genesis is true or false. There are potentially any number of characterizations of Genesis, and we are doing this article a disservice when we contemplate locking this article into but one characterization. That is what is primarily wrong with the "creation myth" appendage. It is hung on to the end of otherwise acceptable titles, the effect being to narrow the focus of the article. There is zilch reason for narrow focus, since what really matters in a title is the identifying of the material covered in the article. In fact, carried to its logical conclusion, no other characterizations of genesis would be permissible in this article — because the title says that this article is only about the "creation myth." Logically speaking, it would be improper to show within this article that there are those who accept Genesis as a literal account of how the world came to be. That is because the title, containing "creation myth," says that the article is only about Genesis as a "creation myth." Similarly if one wished to add (sourced) material about Genesis as a cultural influence, one would be technically restrained from doing so by the narrow focus implied by the title. Bus stop (talk) 15:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Bus: I agree with you fully. My point above is that one side keeps pov-pushing because they want to force readers into their conclusion, instead of allowing them to reason for themselves. They're afraid that being npov in this article might allow a person to think instead of swallowing their pre-made conclusion whole. But I am right with you. SAE (talk) 16:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, SAE, stop right there. That's a personal attack, and not allowed. Second, in regards to Bus Stop, you're in the wrong place. We've got Book of Genesis, Creationism, and Genesis creation myth, each with a more narrow focus than the previous. This article isn't about Genesis in general, that's what Book of Genesis is for. This also isn't about describing people who believe in a literal interpretation of the creation story. That's what the Creationism article is for. This article is just about the story itself, and we can describe it exactly as what it is: a creation myth. Further, we can go into more detail on its influences in literature & the arts (aka Cistine Chapel's mural). We can mention that some people take it literally, sure! But, it would be a small section (a paragraph or two) with Main article: Creationism below the heading, leading the reader to an in-depth article on the subject, rather than trying to cram that whole subject into this article. That's why your argument is invalid, and has been from the start. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Moving forward: take two

Since the last thread was derailed almost instantly, I am trying to move forward again. I wrote above that I can think of a few things that need doing:

• Further development/refinement of the FAQ at the top of the page.
• Rewrite the introductory sentence. It should be absolutely clear what the term myth means from the start.
• Develop the section on the classification of Genesis 1-2 as myth, including the history of, disagreement with, etc, this classification.

I'm sure there are more suggestions, so feel free to list them. Mildly Mad has had a go at rewriting the lead and I think it's much better, so perhaps we can just strike that one for now. I am a little concerned about it giving the impression creation was ex nihilo without discussion, but maybe we can discuss that issue in a separate thread (it will have to be dealt with at some point since it's mentioned in the third paragraph explicitly). Perhaps one point at a time can be dealt with by creating a section on this talk page and chipping away at it. Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The FAQ has been removed. Not only is it not necessary, it's trying to justify a POV that is still in a major dispute. Please refrain from adding such things to this page without a consensus on it's contents. Masterhomer 08:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The FAQ was developed collaboratively throughout the last RFC. Removing it without discussion, and then undoing a revert of your removal is at the very least disruptive. Ben (talk) 08:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The FAQ was written by a total of two people, both with the exact same agenda (keeping the "myth" in the title). It's entire purpose is to justify the last several debates from an entirely "pro-myth" perspective. And it's not exactly needed if someone wants to see the arguments presented in the most NPOV manner, they simply have to read them. I will remind you that this is still a topic in dispute, and it will probably remain in dispute until a real consensus is made that represents an actual compromise between the various thiest and athiest editors. Masterhomer 08:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The FAQ was written with the purpose to keep "creation myth" in the title, which is exactly what this article is about, and the naming of which is consistent with other articles about the creation myths of other religions. "creation myth" is the accurate academic and reliably sourced term for what the first chapters of Genesis are from a NPOV. This whole discussion about personal preferences is superfluous. CUSH 12:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Cush — "Creation myth" has nothing to do with the title. The addition of "creation myth" to the title is merely commentary; it is uncalled for. It is nonessential material, from the point of view of what is required of the title. The title needs to identify the subject of the article. That is accomplished succinctly by "Genesis chapters one and two." The body of the article is the space in which to wax eloquent on those characterizations of the subject of this article that are sufficiently well-sourced for that purpose. If certain other articles may contain this same problem (of commentary in the title that is gratuitous) they would have to be addressed separately. Bus stop (talk) 12:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Bus Stop, we've been over this many times. Unless you're going to start attempting to change every other article on creation myths, you're attempting to change standard naming conventions to favor this one religious creation myth. That is POV, and what we've been telling you this whole time. If you want to change the other articles, you're going to need to take it up at Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles or start a discussion on WP:VPP to get consensus for such a site-wide change, rather than trying to sledgehammer it through on one article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I have great problems with the 1-sided pov in the faq. Should we write a second faq to go below the first, one about sacred history, that says that sacred history doesn't mean that every has to take it as literally true? SAE (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"Sacred history?" We're not here to debate Creationism in this article, we're only here to show the creation myth outlined in Gen 1 & 2, and hopefully show its impact on society. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@ hand, "we're only here to show the creation myth ... its impact on society." -> do you realize the impact this has had on our society? Do you realize that every fabric of the culture that you now live in (if you live in the western world) has been touched by people who believe Genesis 1 & 2 to be sacred history? More than that, it was founded upon Christian belief. It is only people ignorant of history who disregard such things. If what you say is what you want to do, 'figure out its impact on society,' then "sacred history" has a huge, huge, role to play. SAE (talk) 15:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"Touched by people who believe" is pretty damn vague, don't you think? Also, western society as a whole was not "founded upon Christian belief," though Christianity has had a major impact. Again, this is about the creation myth in Genesis itself, not Christianty as a whole. I'm talking art, literature, etc. that has been shaped by this creation mythology as part of the article; not a vague "'every fabric' relies on it" claim. Also, please cut the passive-aggressive comments about "ignorance of history." Disagreement is not necessarily based on ignorance. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hand That Feeds — the narrow focus that you propose does not serve this article's needs well. Much more needs to be covered here than just Genesis as a "creation myth." Anything sourced and related to Genesis chapters one and two has a potential place in this article, and that includes its relationship to Creationism. If sourced material can be found showing Genesis' relation to the arts for instance, that would be potentially material for this article. This article isn't just about Genesis as a "creation myth." That type of focus is misplaced. Bus stop (talk) 15:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

But we only present what creationists interpret or believe about Genesis. We do not make their terminology Misplaced Pages's. CUSH 15:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a false analogy. The title is not overly limiting- the article is not about "genesis as a creation myth", it's about "the creation myth in genesis". Similarly to how The Beatles (album) is not required to only talk about the liner notes, or a description of the color of the vinyl, this article is free to talk about the impact the subject has had. It doesn't need to be moved to do that. --King Öomie 16:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No, the reason The Beatles (album) is titled as it is, is to distinguish that article from the other article on the music group, titled The Beatles. Bus stop (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It's also about music, and not religion. It's not a perfect parallel. I'm talking about the subject in relation to the coverage provided. It's less strictly enforced than you might suggest. --King Öomie 17:02, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

So, the justification for a misplaced focus will be an absence of enforcement? Bus stop (talk) 17:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Stop repeating the same old debunked claim, it's disruptive. A descriptive title is necessary and since the article's topic is the creation myth found in the Book of Genesis the suggestion that the title gives a misplaced focus is disingenuous. Ben (talk) 18:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no misplaced focus. The article deals with the origin of the world through supernatural agents as described (claimed) in the first paragraphs of Genesis. In short, the "Genesis creation myth". This title says exactly what the article is about. This article is not about Genesis in general, but about just one section of it. CUSH 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Question

Is/was the only objection to the old article title ("Creation according to Genesis") that it does not match other articles on similar topics? --Dweller (talk) 14:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The concern was that it treated this particular creation myth with much more sympathy and sensitivity than any other. --King Öomie 14:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a "yes". --Dweller (talk) 15:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like an "exactly what I said". Your question did not cover the length and breadth of the issue, and portrayed it as rather pedantic. I expanded the premise and answered affirmatively. To answer it another way- "No, that's not the whole issue. Here's the rest:" --King Öomie 16:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

One of my concerns was that it was a very awkward title to try and work with. Another was that it was so vastly different to the way other general references referred to the material. In looking to remedy both of these things it was natural to consider how reliable sources refer to this article's topic and how Misplaced Pages handled other creation myths. Ben (talk) 16:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Ben. What do you mean, it was awkward to work with? --Dweller (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The major concern seemed to be that use of the term creation myth would give readers the impression that the events mentioned in Genesis did not take place. The current title (or some variation of it - two similar suggestions were made at the start) allows us to satisfy two objectives (one objective from each side of the fence so to speak): use terminology that is consistent with reliable sources on the topic (editorially neutral point of view) and to give a short expansion of the term creation myth (see the current introductory sentence) to make it clear that we're not using the term myth to mean false. That is, on top of this being a religious article (context), and a wikilink to creation myth existing, we further tried to appease the concern by indicating what the term creation myth meant from the very beginning of the article. The old title made the introductory sentence too unwieldy if the same set of objectives were attempted. Ben (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Trying to use policy

Trying to be as unbiased and dispassionate as I can, I went through and pulled out all the relevant pieces of WP policy for consideration. Disclaimer: before I did this, I was still of the opinion that "myth" "creation myth" was the correct title, but please take my word that I am not cherry picking policy, and that I am open to alternatives, as long as they fulfill policy.

• Point 1: The term "myth" "creation myth" in its scholarly context is neutral, and as such should be used in the article. Concerns that readers would be "turned off" by the term are not a valid reason to not use "myth" "creation myth"
  • WP:WTA#Myth and legend: "Formal use of the word is commonplace in scholarly works, and Misplaced Pages is no exception."
  • WP:RNPOV: "Misplaced Pages articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader."
  • WP:RNPOV: "Editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings."
• Point 2: "Myth" "Creation myth" should be used in the article title, because it is the neutral term used to describe the article's content, and similar articles also use "Myth" "Creation myth" in the title.
  • WP:NPOV#Article titles: "Encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality."
  • WP:WTA#Myth and legend: "Referring to "Christian beliefs" and "Hindu myths" in a similar context may give the impression that the word myth is being used informally."
• Point 3: The remainder of the article remains neutral, because the beliefs of Judeo-Christians are documented without passing judgment on their truth.
  • WP:RNPOV: "Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith because in their view such analysis discriminates against their religious beliefs. Their point of view must be mentioned if it can be documented by notable, reliable sources"

We see from the above points that the term "creation myth" is neutral and should be used as the article's title. Mildly Mad_C 15:44, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

We are not discussing about "myth" but about "creation myth", which is a proper term. CUSH 16:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been more clear about that. I have updated my post accordingly. Mildly Mad_C 16:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

As I've noted in my Pros section to the current title in the Summary Table, the tie in with other creation myths articles is a point in favor of "Genesis creation myth." Although not the only relevant point, it is a strong one.EGMichaels (talk) 19:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, my other question

I'm sure I've asked this before, but don't seem to have received a reply, other than a helpful clarification on the role of WP:CENT... was the RfC or Requested Page Move notified to relevant WikiProjects, to ensure thorough discussion and reliable consensus? --Dweller (talk) 16:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Editors canvassed to get participation of the RFC (see the "underhanded tactics" section of the RFC), I'm not sure exactly where it was reposted though, you might want to ask Afaprof (he submitted the RFC) or dab or one of the other admins that closed / contributed to the RFC. I don't think anyone here on the so called "creation myth" side bothered since there's nothing more on this side that can be said than what has already been brought up time and time and time again. Nefariousski (talk) 19:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure where AFA Prof01 advertised it either, though it did appear on the usual RFC lists and if I recall it was advertised on the NPOV noticeboard at some point. Ben (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Summary Table

Please endorse your own position, and add pros and cons (and other potential titles) as necessary. Please note, the only purpose of this table is to clearly present pros and cons for each possible position. The merits and demerits of various positions are already being debated in the body of the article and archives. My attempt is merely to summarize and clarify what is already being discussed.

Regardless of what consensus finally becomes stable, it's important to at least have a clear and concise presentation of WHAT is being discussed.EGMichaels (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment: there seems to be a theme so far against an assumption of either truth or falsehood. At least the first two entries here are attempting a neutral wording.EGMichaels (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Summary Table Discussion

Well done, and thanks for that. However, the "cons" you have listed for "Genesis creation myth" are pretty clearly false. Using the term "creation myth" in no way implies its falsehood--see my post under Talk:Genesis creation myth#Trying to use policy; there's not really any other valid argument against it. While you may be correct in that some users want "myth" to be used because it can imply falsehood, making that assertion is a blatant violation of WP:AGF. Again, from WP:RNPOV: "Editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." Mildly Mad_C 19:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Mad -- thanks for being here! The red flag for me was when some editors were claiming to use "myth" in a scholarly neutral sense, but refused to even consider synonyms for that supposed meaning. Well, if they won't consider a synonym, then they don't mean it either. That got my attention real fast. They were promoting "myth" with positively religious fervor.EGMichaels (talk) 19:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

What if they had already considered the alternatives (like I have)? Just because someone does the right thing for the wrong reasons, doesn't make it wrong. Mildly Mad_C 19:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Mad, absolutely agreed. I do believe that some editors like yourself have considered the alternatives. I do not think that the consensus here has settled on those considerations. I think some folks got a little ahead of themselves and left the consensus wondering what the heck happened. I suspect that myth may be the single BEST alternative -- but that doesn't mean it's the ONLY one, and it doesn't mean that we have to settle on the BEST choice. Sometimes collaboration settles on everyone's second choice.

In any case, it's well known that "myth" is an appropriate word in scholarly circles. However, it's ALSO well known that other synonyms are equally appropriate. A number of manuals of style recommend avoiding "myth" for living religions (for obvious reasons).

Ben keeps talking about censorship here -- but substituting a synonym for what you SAY you mean is hardly censorship. It's only censorship when you do NOT mean that synonym. So, I'd argue that I'm not the one showing "myth" isn't neutral; it's Ben.EGMichaels (talk) 19:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you that "creation story" is an acceptable alternative. However, why shouldn't we use the best option, just in the interest of not offending people? WP:NPOV is NEUTRAL point of view, not NO point of view. Mildly Mad_C 20:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@ Mildly Mad ""Editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic" -> unfortunately the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on the topic DO see myth in its formal sense as containing falsehood. What sources do you use? SAE (talk) 19:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

--King Öomie 19:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Try a dictionary, King.EGMichaels (talk) 19:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

So if I open any given dictionary to Creation Myth, it's going say "However, this means 'false'"? --King Öomie 19:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:WTA and WP:RNPOV clearly state that formal usages are perfectly acceptable and the term in question isn't "MYTH" it's CREATION MYTH for the millionth time. Also for the millionth time please see Electoral College isn't an institute of higher learning because it contains college example. Furthermore see WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and the dozen other policies and guidelines that have been shown, reshown and reshown again to be in support of using the precise, formal, widely used, academic term as opposed to the alternatives. For the "Dictionary" comment please see the FAQ, the cites in the article or you could also google Define "Creation Myth" and see how none of those definitions discuss any implied falsehood (or truth) and are totally value neutral (which is in line with policy as well). Bringing up the colloquial definition of myth as your only arguement against is the clearest cut case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT i've yet seen during my time editing WP... Nefariousski (talk) 19:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nef, I HEARD you. I just observed that the scholarly neutral CLAIM doesn't match the behavior.EGMichaels (talk) 19:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This argument is invalid. I would like you to either clarify it or stop making it. --King Öomie 20:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

King -- prove me wrong. If you REALLY mean some harmless neutral thing, then please give me your second choice of title (below) that uses a synonym with that meaning. I'm all ears.EGMichaels (talk) 20:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

For 100% of the reasons in the Creation Myth/Pro section of your convenient graph, it would be detrimental for me to do so, and you know it. --King Öomie 21:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I get it from Misplaced Pages guidelines (which are themselves an extension of community consensus). WP:WTA#Myth and legend (which is a guideline) states, "Formal use of the word is commonplace in scholarly works, and Misplaced Pages is no exception." Mildly Mad_C 19:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This is the same as the information in the above closed requested move. The only difference is that this times comments are constrained to a table that is designed to equivocate pros and cons instead of using discussion and policy. Again I quote WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Ben (talk) 19:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Additionally every comment on the summary table not backed by relevent policy or guideline is well... how should I put this... Just, like, your opinion, man. Such comments like "Seems like the most NPOV" is so ironic as to be laughable. "I'm going to use my personal point of view to judge NPOV" is no way to go through life son... Nefariousski (talk) 20:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

NPOV is developed through a consensus of people with different POVs. Rather than laugh, please constructively give us a SECOND title (below) that unambiguously expresses the neutrality you claim, in a way that us little people can see it.EGMichaels (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality is defined in terms of reliable sources, not on what editors think. I've already explained this to you. Why do I get the feeling I should just add WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to my sig for a little while? Ben (talk) 20:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

We can all pull out reliable sources. I could find several standard manuals of style that urge to avoid "myth" in terms of a living religion. Regardless, I HEARD you. I just don't SEE you practicing that neutrality. You're way way way too overcommitted to pass for a neutral party.EGMichaels (talk) 20:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Pot, kettle. Again. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

You know, Hand -- I'm really trying very hard to make this easy for you. "Genesis creation myth" was my original choice and remains my second choice. But I refuse to cooperate in the alienation of half of the editors in a fake consensus contrary to the intended USE of the term. I'm not committed to "story" or "myth" but I AM committed to collaboration, and I'd like to see that happening here. So, you caught me. I'm way way way committed to collaboration.EGMichaels (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm really trying very hard to make this easy for you.

You certainly have an odd way of showing it, by refusing to assume good faith of other editors and trying to force us through some arbitrary hoops to "prove" our good intentions for you. You've not shown a commitment to collaboration at all. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it "assuming bad faith" to "assume someone's assuming bad faith"?EGMichaels (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It's no assumption when you've consistantly said you don't believe us when we say we're editing neutral; especially when you say we have to go through an arbitrary process to "prove" our good intentions to you. That's the definition of assuming bad faith. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

In a debate whether to call the article on prehistoric reptiles "Dinosaurs" or "Jesus Horses" there are two sides. The "Dinosaurs" side has policy, reliable sources, etc... the "Jesus Horses" side has appeals to emotion and claims of offensiveness. What is to be gained by the "Dinosaurs" side to meet in the middle and call it "Jesusaurus" when the opposition has yet to come up with a single valid arguement (keeping in mind perceptions of offensiveness, or lack of sensitivity etc... are NOT valid arguements as shown by policy after policy after policy). And by the way I'd love to see those guidelines and policies that discourage the formal usage of "Myth" or any single reliable source that talks about the harms of using "Creation Myth". I have a feeling that if they had existed we would have seen them on this page by now. Nefariousski (talk) 20:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nef -- huh? It almost looks like you're using "Myth" to compare to some kind of fantasy children's fable. That's, er... colloquial.EGMichaels (talk) 20:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

A 2nd one has been found out: First Cush openly admitted that he sees "myth" as the opposite of "truth." Now Nefariousski has (unwittingly?) done so. Thank-you. Any arguments you now put forth for "myth" are clearly not npov. SAE (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nowhere in Feariousski's paragraph does he say that, so please retract your accusation. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Where did I say that? All I did was challenge you to back up your claim that some policy or guideline existed that discouraged the formal use of the word myth. Might I add This to the suggested reading list? Nefariousski (talk) 21:02, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

A) I agree with Nef and Hand, he didn't say that (that is, the term Jesus Horses does not assume the creatures are fake, and neither does Dinosaur), B) STILL DOESN'T MATTER. If an editor, who is a convicted rapist, edits an article on someone, changing the phrasing "terrifying rapist" to "rapist", might he have ulterior motives? Absolutely. Is his edit backed by policy? You bet your ass. --King Öomie 21:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Second Choices

I've found that people's second choice can sometimes be telling. Truly collaborative editors are able to work with other editors, form consensus, and even compromise.

Those who cannot work with other editors, or are inflexible, can create a logjam and prevent stable editing to occur.

Perhaps the best test of this would be to answer, what's your SECOND choice?

My SECOND choice is what was originally my first choice: Genesus creation myth. The only thing preventing me from going back to that first choice is that other editors here are not following Misplaced Pages NPOV usage, but are in fact shoehorning this term into some kind of preachy apologetic for anti-theism. Well, we can't do that here, so my original second choice (Genesis creation story) has become my first choice in order to maintain true neutrality.

In any case, again, my current second choice (that is, my second second choice) is "Genesis creation myth."

All reasonable editors here should have a second choice in mind. Please share. And if you do not and cannot have a second choice, then... maybe you should brainstorm a bit. I'd love to find out who is able to compromise and who isn't.EGMichaels (talk) 20:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like your rationale for keeping this debate alive is to assume bad faith on the part of a bunch of editors. Not a good idea. Mildly Mad_C 20:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Mad, if I assumed bad faith I wouldn't bother to ask for people's second choice. People of bad faith are unable to come up with a second choice. So it would be a waste of time.EGMichaels (talk) 20:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

You've just said, your first, second and third choices are all "Genesis creation myth." In other words, you don't have a second choice. By your own criteria, aren't you wasting time by acting in bad faith? — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"other editors here are not following Misplaced Pages NPOV usage, but are in fact shoehorning this term into some kind of preachy apologetic for anti-theism." That sounds like assuming bad faith to me. If the editors I think you're talking about are the same ones you're debating here, I have never seen any one of them make an "anti-theist" edit to an article. Mildly Mad_C 20:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Compromise isn't always the best option when there is a clear cut issue with one side supported by policy and another side not. When Scientists say the earth is billions of years old and YEC folks say it's 6000 years old the scientists aren't being stubborn for not compromising and saying "ok, the earth is only millions of years old". When one side of this discussion is supported by policy, guidelines, precedent, abundant reliable sources, and so on and the other side of this arguement is supported by feelings, opinions, picking words apart and trying to define them seperately and refusal to get the point there's no reason to seek middle ground for the group with the stronger position. Nefariousski (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the policy only works in favor of those using the term in a scholarly neutral way. Such editors will have a large enough volcabulary to express a synonym in a second choice. So...EGMichaels (talk) 20:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

C'mon, point is moot. Due diligence has been done to establish formal usage (FAQ, multiple dictionary defs, multiple references, footnote etc...). Old Arguement is Old. Nefariousski (talk) 20:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, you're assuming bad faith unless we meet your arbitrary standards. That's not how this works. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hand -- this isn't complicated. All good faith editors should be able to come up with a second choice. Mad's first choice is my second, and my first choice is Mad's second. It took us about two seconds. That's what good faith editors do all the time. They collaborate.EGMichaels (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Due diligence: looked up "myth" on thesaurus.com. The list of words is as follows: allegory, apologue, creation, delusion, fable, fabrication, fairy story, fancy, fantasy, fiction, figment, folk ballad, folk tale, illusion, imagination, invention, legend, lore, mythos, parable, saga, superstition, tale, tall story, tradition. None of these are as neutral or precise as the academic usage of "myth." Case closed. Mildly Mad_C 20:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

(UTC)

I use Visual Thesaurus, version 3.0. "Story" is a direct synonym. Bizarre that your resource left that out.EGMichaels (talk) 20:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Huh, that actually wasn't intentional, I thought I saw it in there. In any case, the argument still holds for story (which includes "myth"). Mildly Mad_C 20:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course it does. They're synonyms -- which is why you and I are able to interchange them (even though we PREFER one to the other). In any case, this little section is just to get people to state clearly what they mean. You and I don't have a problem with it, and I don't think Hand would either if he wasn't assuming some kind of bad faith on my part.EGMichaels (talk) 20:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) EGM, you are not collaborating at all by trying to force us through arbitrary hoops to "prove" our good intentions to you. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Hand. Well, you're doing a good job not proving it.EGMichaels (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nobody has to. That's what WP:AGF says. Mildly Mad_C 20:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Right -- but sometimes a person can work REAL HARD to remove that assumption. And assuming MY bad intentions isn't AGF either.EGMichaels (talk) 20:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) EGM, you seem to have a total misunderstanding of how collaborative editing works, especially on Misplaced Pages. Every one of your attempts so far have involved trying to pigeonhole individual editors into "pro" and "con" camps, which is highly combative, not conducive to collaboration. If you have problems with specific editors, prove it. Otherwise, please stop and read up on our policies and guidlines a little more. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)