Misplaced Pages

Talk:Alcoholics Anonymous: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 00:25, 30 March 2010 editThe Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk | contribs)4,684 edits →History Rewrite: trim← Previous edit Revision as of 00:27, 30 March 2010 edit undoThe Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk | contribs)4,684 edits →History Rewrite: trim and reworking . Mr AnonNext edit →
Line 66: Line 66:
Here is a suggested rewrite. which uses primarily Kutz's "Not God" as its primary reference For the moment I'm omiting specific citaions, but am interested in comments Here is a suggested rewrite. which uses primarily Kutz's "Not God" as its primary reference For the moment I'm omiting specific citaions, but am interested in comments


:AA is an offshoot of the ] which practiced what it called "first century Christianity". The group was not focused primarily on sobriety, but it counted members who were alcoholics crediting their sobriety to the conversions performed by the group. Following what would be a central tenet of AA of "working with another alcoholic", these alcoholic members recruited other chronic alcoholics. One such Oxford member, ], recruited a former drinking buddy Bill Wilson, who was in the midst of a drinking binge. Thatcher announced that he was not drinking because he said "I got religion", and suggested that Wilson could do likewise. To account for Wilson's alienation from religion, Thacher suggested that Wilson could fashion his on version what he called both "God" and "a higher power." :AA is an offshoot of the ] which practiced what it called "first century Christianity". The group was not focused primarily on sobriety, but it counted members who were alcoholics crediting their sobriety to the conversions performed by the group. Following what would be a central tenet of AA of "working with another alcoholic", these alcoholic members recruited other chronic alcoholics. One such Oxford member, ], recruited a former drinking buddy Bill Wilson, announcing that he was sober and because, he said, "I got religion", and suggested that Wilson could do likewise. To account for Wilson's alienation from religion, Thacher suggested that Wilson could fashion his on version what he called both "God" and "a higher power."


:To Wilson what was most striking was that Thacher was a "hopeless" alcoholic like himself who had an unique understanding of Wilson's condition. Wilson ceased drinking as he became active in the Oxford Group and carried on the tradition of seeking out other alcoholics, most of whom he couldn't help stay sober. One exception was Dr Bob Smith, an Oxford member, but unable to stay sober as such, whom Wilson met in Akron Ohio on May 11th 1934. Continuing to meet with Wilson, Smith eventually got sober and became convinced with Wilson that working with other alcoholics is what made the difference in their sobriety. The day Smith had his last drink on June 10th 1934 is marked by AA for its founding. :To Wilson what was most striking was that Thacher was a "hopeless" alcoholic like himself who had an unique understanding of Wilson's condition. Wilson ceased drinking as he became active in the Oxford Group and carried on the tradition of seeking out other alcoholics, most of whom he couldn't help stay sober. One exception was Dr Bob Smith, an Oxford member, but unable to stay sober as such, whom Wilson met in Akron Ohio on May 11th 1934. Continuing to meet with Wilson, Smith eventually got sober and became convinced with Wilson that working with other alcoholics is what made the difference in their sobriety. The day Smith had his last drink on June 10th 1934 is marked by AA for its founding.

Revision as of 00:27, 30 March 2010

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Alcoholics Anonymous article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
Peace dove with olive branch in its beakPlease stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Alcoholics Anonymous. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Alcoholics Anonymous at the Reference desk.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconPsychology
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSocial Work
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Social Work, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Social Work on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Social WorkWikipedia:WikiProject Social WorkTemplate:WikiProject Social WorkSocial work
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSpirituality
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Spirituality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spirituality-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpiritualityWikipedia:WikiProject SpiritualityTemplate:WikiProject SpiritualitySpirituality
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMedicine Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Alcoholics Anonymous received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on June 10, 2004, June 10, 2005, June 10, 2006, June 10, 2007, and June 10, 2008.

Introduction

suggest change from "the manual of the movement is known as the Big Book" to "The movement was named after the book "Alcoholics Anonymous", first published in 1939, which describes its program of recovery and is informally referred to as the Big Book"

This is my first contribution to Misplaced Pages and, as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I should declare a conflict of interest so I'm suggesting the edit rather than making it. The citation would be "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age - A Brief History of AA" published by AA World Services Inc.

Getting bolder, I wonder if the introduction might quote the AA Preamble, which concisely sets out its purpose?

I note the phrase "Big Book" links to another page which reads rather oddly, probably because it is a translation, and also IMO is a poor description of the book. There is nothing on the discussion page there so perhaps editors reading this could have a quick look. I might try rewriting it if no-one objects (I realise I should probably discuss it on its own page)Corvida (talk) 02:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Criticisms and legal issues

One glaring omission from this article, probably in the "Criticism" section, is that in the US and some other jurisdictions, courts have made AA attendance mandatory, and that these requirements have in some cases been successfully challenged as violations of intellectual freedom, especially freedom of religion (e.g., in the US, under the First Amendment to the US Constitution). One consequence of this (again, in the U.S., but I would not be surprised of other cases, given the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights) is that many legal systems have been forced to change such requirements to be more generic (i.e., the defendant may be required to attend AA or some other alterative group meetings or one-on-one substance abuse counseling, for example).

is covered here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Court_rulings Mr Miles (talk) 11:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

In general, I find the criticisms section to be far too small. It looks to me like this article has been whitewashed to the extent possible by AA members. The list of alternative-to-AA and AA-critical literature is actually quite large. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 18:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Alternatives to AA literature has no place in an article on AA - start a new article if you want to. AA critical literature is required by Wiki to be from reliable sources, most are personal grudge blogs which don't count and so are not here. Making such a subjective and unsubstantiated statement as that the article has been 'whitewashed' by AA members is not going to win you any friends among the Misplaced Pages editors who have worked hard on this article to make it as accurate as possible, rather you are labeling yourself a conspiracy theorist. Mr Miles (talk) 11:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Attrition

The two attrition statements: 'by the end of the third month, over half (52.6%) have left' and 'approximately two-fifths of people who participate in AA drop out within the first three months' don't tally (because they're from different sources?), do the editors deem this to be a problem? Mr Miles (talk) 11:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The 2/5 is from McIntire, and the 52.6% is from the Triennial Studies, with the later being explicitly cited, and readily available. The McIntire article is gonna cost somebody money, and only those with access could explain the apparent discrepancy. Thereafter, a consensus might be approached. Mr Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.10.222 (talk) 05:36, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Disease

The following is in the Alcoholism as disease section:

"This explains why a spiritual experience (as opposed to a specific medical treatment, such as the use of antihistamines to combat an actual allergic reaction) is advocated in AA for achieving and maintaining sobriety. "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." "

If AA is the only source for this, then I suggest it be softened somewhat so that it is clear that it is only claimed to be true by AA and is not a fact. Desoto10 (talk) 03:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Only Way Claims

I have heard in the past, including from some AA members, that AA claims to be the only way to overcome alcoholism. Does anyone know if this is true? That would run contrary to what I have heard about the science of treating addictions.Bostoner (talk) 03:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

This page is for improving the article and not for fishing expeditions. Mr Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.10.222 (talk) 04:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

AA does not make this claim. Rather it speaks in the Big Book of 'alcoholics of our type' implying there are other kinds of alcoholics. It claims success for 'alcoholics of our type' but does not claim that this is the only way for all alcoholics who may not be 'of our type'. In fact, AA is remarkably tolerant of any other method of overcoming alcoholism but takes no official position on any of them.AmatorDei (talk) 01:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC) AmatorDei

You might to discuss this on somebody's talk page, since as stated pretty clearly above: ":This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." Mr Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.10.222 (talk) 16:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

History Rewrite

The current section, though it seems historically correct, omits the central and seminal influence of the Oxford Group, especially the tradition of its sober alcoholic members of recruiting other alcoholics. Here is a suggested rewrite. which uses primarily Kutz's "Not God" as its primary reference For the moment I'm omiting specific citaions, but am interested in comments

AA is an offshoot of the Oxford Group which practiced what it called "first century Christianity". The group was not focused primarily on sobriety, but it counted members who were alcoholics crediting their sobriety to the conversions performed by the group. Following what would be a central tenet of AA of "working with another alcoholic", these alcoholic members recruited other chronic alcoholics. One such Oxford member, Ebby Thacher, recruited a former drinking buddy Bill Wilson, announcing that he was sober and because, he said, "I got religion", and suggested that Wilson could do likewise. To account for Wilson's alienation from religion, Thacher suggested that Wilson could fashion his on version what he called both "God" and "a higher power."
To Wilson what was most striking was that Thacher was a "hopeless" alcoholic like himself who had an unique understanding of Wilson's condition. Wilson ceased drinking as he became active in the Oxford Group and carried on the tradition of seeking out other alcoholics, most of whom he couldn't help stay sober. One exception was Dr Bob Smith, an Oxford member, but unable to stay sober as such, whom Wilson met in Akron Ohio on May 11th 1934. Continuing to meet with Wilson, Smith eventually got sober and became convinced with Wilson that working with other alcoholics is what made the difference in their sobriety. The day Smith had his last drink on June 10th 1934 is marked by AA for its founding.
Because the Oxford Group was comprised of mostly non-alcoholics, was impatient and unsympathetic with alcoholics who couldn't stay sober, and was too rigid in it's doctrine's, Wilson and Smith separated from the Oxford Group to form what became Alcoholics Anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.234.245 (talk) 20:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Categories:
Talk:Alcoholics Anonymous: Difference between revisions Add topic