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Manual of Style

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Conflict regarding non-breaking spaces

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Two sections of this guideline address non-breaking spaces. At WP:NBSP, the guideline states that such hard spaces are recommended between a numeral and an abbreviated unit, "to prevent the end-of-line displacement of elements that would be awkward at the beginning of a new line". At WP:ORDINAL, the guideline suggests that un-abbreviated units, fully spelled-out units, could benefit from the non-breaking space. It states:

• When both a figure and spelled-out named number are used in a quantity, it is useful to use a non-breaking space, as in 128 million or 128{{nbsp}}million to prevent a line break from occurring between them.

(This entry first appeared on 19 March 2009 with this edit by Ckatz, who apparently intended to swap a disputed section for a protected one. I guess the protected version was composed independently—I don't know.)

Back in 2006, this same subject came up at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_50#Non-breaking_space_before_non-abbreviated_unit with Centrx avowing that the non-breaking space was needed so that a numeral is not left hanging at the end of a line. Centrx described how, in the grouping '50 centimetres', the the numeral '50' would need a non-breaking space following it, but a written word 'fifty' would not. I disagree—I see no awkwardness in leaving the '50' or the 'fifty' hanging at the end of the line if the next word is a fully spelled-out unit such as 'centimetres'. There is no difference between the two in terms of reader comprehension. The reader reads fifty in each case, and waits the few milliseconds for the beginning of the next line to come into view before understanding what units are being discussed.

So, is the non-breaking space supposed to prevent awkward elements that would otherwise begin a new line, or to prevent awkward elements otherwise left hanging at the end of a line?

Back at WP:NBSP, the guideline helps us understand that the non-breaking space is used when a possible line break would make for awkward reading, such as beginning a line with an abbreviated unit. I gather that the point of the rule is to prevent this:

1. The large-bore frammis encloses a schmoo which is 50
cm in diameter.

Okay, fine, I can see that the beginning of a line is kind of ugly when it is just an abbreviation. The reader might be momentarily confused by in: is it a preposition or an abbreviation for inches? Here's what our WP:NBSP guideline would rather have:

2. The large-bore frammis encloses a schmoo which is 50 cm
in diameter.

The following two examples are both unambiguous to me. They yield the same level of reading comprehension, the same relative lack of ugliness, yet the last one is deprecated at WP:ORDINAL:

3. The large-bore frammis encloses a schmoo which is fifty
centimetres in diameter.

4. The large-bore frammis encloses a schmoo which is 50
centimetres in diameter.

I see no need for preventing a line break if the units are unabbreviated full words; there is no ambiguity. Can we remove that nbsp-conflicting entry from WP:ORDINAL, and let the WP:NBSP section describe every case of non-breaking spaces? Binksternet (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Binksternet, for discovering that. I've no particular opinion (to the point that I couldn't care less) on which of the above prevails, but I think, especially in a guideline as important as the MoS, we need clarity. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment Thanks to Binksternet for letting me know that this was under discussion. However, I have to ask if this is actually the edit you intended to highlight. I don't recall the non-breaking space issue being a part of that edit, nor does it appear to be mentioned anywhere in the text. The sole purpose of the change was to stop a festering edit war over the "Dates" section of the MoS. The existing text was copied as-is into a sub-page which was then fully protected from editing, allowing us to keep editing open on the rest of the MoS page. --Ckatz_spy 22:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what happened in your edit, Ckatz, and I am not blaming you. All I am doing is reporting what I see: the version before your edit did not have the bit about 128 million, the version you established had this bit, and it stayed in the guideline until now. Binksternet (talk) 22:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Am I missing something? I see no conflict. Use with amounts ($128 million, say) is different IMO from values (say, 400 mph). (Of course, I'd prefer 400mph, but that's another thread. ;p) Given they aren't strictly dealing with the same kinds of things... TREKphiler 23:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

More specifically, "128 million" is quite different from "$128 million"; the presence or absence of the preceding sign indicating unit of currency is crucial to the question of how confused the reader may get if the line breaks. Some of our editors would give it a non-breaking space in both cases—I would only do so when the currency sign was there. Personally, I think this first type of line break is okay:

• The large-bore frammis, with included schmoo, retailed in 1999 for 128
  

million dollars.

• The large-bore frammis, with included schmoo, retailed in 1999 for $128
  

million.

Very different reading flow between those two. Binksternet (talk) 00:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Binksternet, no worries, no offence taken. I was just pointing out that the changes I made didn't actually affect the section you're asking about. I haven't been able to find when the actual change was made, but from what I can discern it did not occur when I made the unrelated edits to the "Dates" section. Instead, the change to the "Numbers" text appears to have occurred at some point after that date, but the subpage-redirect is confusing matters by displaying the present-day text blended into the day-of text. (When the dif is generated, it is loading the old version of the main page, and transcluding the subpage as intended. However, the dif generator routine doesn't use the subpage version from that date, but instead the result of a call to the subpage today. That subpage is now a redirect back to the main page, which then gets transcluded into itself. Confusing, yes, but when you load the actual version stored from last year you'll see that the text you've mentioned is not there.) --Ckatz_spy 03:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah, that makes a hell of a lot more sense—thanks! At any rate, the question about nbsp remains on the table. Binksternet (talk) 03:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't have my style references with me, so I'm not sure if I was describing some established English editorial practice, or summarizing the previous forty-nine Talk-page archives and years of WPMOS, or describing a sensible and logical practice ipse dixit, but what springs compelling to mind at the moment is: if standard style prescribes that even the longest year numbers must begin a sentence spelled out in words, even in bare two thousand and ten, why should a numeral hang out alone amongst a sea of words, away from the unit it depends on for meaning? If the number is so troublesome it can't be spelled out in common words, why not also trouble for elegance and clarity? If the number's scientific context demands a numeral, why not follow the same principle that binds a number to its unit in the dimensional analysis and conversion factors of Chapter 1 Chemistry? —Centrx→talk • 06:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I see your opinion as it stands, but what about the way forward? The current situation must be addressed—we cannot have the ORDINAL section prescribing a different method of non-breaking spaces than the NBSP section. Would you move the line under discussion upward from ORDINAL to NBSP? Would you amend the other NBSP examples to clearly include non-abbreviated units? Binksternet (talk) 14:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment about NBSP

Should the following line be removed from the guideline or moved up from the WP:ORDINAL section to the WP:NBSP section?

• When both a figure and spelled-out named number are used in a quantity, it is useful to use a non-breaking space, as in 128 million or 128{{nbsp}}million to prevent a line break from occurring between them.

The question is whether non-breaking spaces are used between a numeral and a unit of any sort, or just between a numeral and an abbreviation of a unit. In all cases non-breaking spaces would continue to be used as otherwise prescribed to address problems of ambiguity. Binksternet (talk) 14:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Removed. I think non-breaking spaces should be used before abbreviations but not before full words, if there is no ambiguity. Binksternet (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Kept. Digits should not be left hanging on the right margin separated by a line break from the rest of the number. It is really no different than

lorem ipsum ... 128,

000,000

which we certainly would not do. Numbers expressed in digits (in whole or part) should not be split across lines. It isn't just a question of ambiguity; it's also a matter of good typography. Quale (talk) 03:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Michael Glass WQA

I have started a WP:WQA concerning Michael Glass' comments on units on various forums. The relevant discussion is here. Justin the Evil Scotsman talk 14:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

This Wiquette is now archived at . Read how it started, how it progressed and how it ended. Michael Glass (talk) 13:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

A more inclusive sentence

The present policy reads:

Articles concerning Commonwealth countries in Africa, Asia and Australasia generally put metric units first.

In fact, articles about all other countries than the United States and Britain (plus dependencies) generally put metric units first. This includes Liberia and Myanmar. Therefore the policy should read:

Articles concerning all other countries generally put metric units first.

Any objections or suggestions? Michael Glass (talk) 01:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

First, I'd note that articles on Liberia and Burma should (in principle) be using the most appropriate units to them as per the guideline. I'm not about to go and convert them all, but I would argue that it is evidence of systematic bias to accept exceptions for the UK and US without accepting them for Liberia and Burma - the former being an English-speaking country. They should not - in principle - be exceptions to the general rule that we use the most appropriate units for the location.

Other than that, I would suggest that the word "country" is not clear: it means different things to different people. If the word "country" is used, we should explicitly refer to BOTs, Crown Dependencies and US Territories as included in the UK and US - or at least not as part of "all other countries". Pfainuk talk 17:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

One way to get round the possible exceptions for Liberia and Myanmar is by this wording:

Articles on other countries generally put metric units first.

The problem is not an ambiguity with the word "country" which is clear enough, but with the rest of the advice which mentions the UK and the US without specifying which of their territories use what weights and measures. Leaving out all may be enough to do the trick.

(As an aside, Liberia appears to be switching over to the metric system. See , , . Michael Glass (talk) 06:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you can find references about Liberia that use metric units - or even Liberian references that use metric units - does not imply that they are switching over in any significant way and does not mean that metric units are significantly used. The point the Powerpoint presentation is making is that Liberia was, for some time, without effective government and hence without any de facto standard for units, causing confusion (particularly given as all of Liberia's neighbours - and doubtless the global cocoa market - use metric units).

Part of the problem with the word "country" is that everyone knows what it means - but if you ask two people to produce definitive lists they'll frequently end up really quite different. Some include dependent territories. Some include certain parts of certain sovereign states. Some include states with limited recognition. Some include micronations. Point being, your proposal still strongly implies all other countries, and to many that will include dependent territories of the US and UK. Which is inappropriate. Pfainuk talk 06:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Our Country article nicely sums up the ambiguity of the word. Lists_of_countries#Other_meanings_of_country also illustrates the problem. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the word "generally" and deleting the word "all" handle the nuances and differing details. Maurreen (talk) 09:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

US and UK territories do not always follow the same rules as their mother countries - Puerto Rico for example signposts its roads in kilometres, sells fuel by the litre, but speed limits are in mph and their government website suggests that degrees Fahrenheit are more widely used than degrees Celsius. In the British Sovereign Areas in Cyprus, Cypriot law is used wherever practicable and roads are signposted in accordance with Cypriot rather than British practice. In order to accomodate these differences, I suggest that the additional sentence should read:

Articles on UK and US dependent territories etc should follow the useage of the local government website. Articles on other countries generally put metric units first.

Martinvl (talk) 12:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Government websites do not necessarily reflect local usage, and often use different units depending on their target audience (resident or tourist). _wjemather 12:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Have you any hard evidence for this? Michael Glass (talk) 13:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

We have been through this before as you know, and I do not understand why we should still entertain you trying to bend MOS to suit your agenda of metrication every 4–6 weeks. As was made abundantly clear to you before, it is time you left MOS alone in this regard. _wjemather 13:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Does it matter who the government is targetting? In practice I believe that the same audience will be reading Misplaced Pages. Martinvl (talk) 13:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes it does matter. MOS states that common local usage should prevail unless concesus determines that it is not appropriate in a particular cirumstance. Otherwise, we would use the US customary system across the board since that is the system in use by the largest proporion of WP readers. _wjemather 13:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Certainly it matters. If you're trying to reflect common local usage in - say - the United States (and we are), a US government website aimed at Indians or Chinese people - or indeed one aimed at general foreigners - is not likely to do that. I would consider that point to be so obvious that it worries me that it has to be spelt out. Using government websites regardless of local usage is inappropriate. Note also that governments in countries where the metric system is not universal frequently have a pro-metric POV in the matter, preferring metric units in cases where the general public prefers non-metric units. Pfainuk talk 17:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary - MOS specifies that SI should be used and as a last resort, the units used in the source document. Nowhere does the MOS say anything about US customary units for non-US articles. Furthermore, we cannot assume that the US readership is the largest English-language readership of Misplaced Pages. Apart form the UK, Australia and Canada, English is one of the two offical languages in India and in Pakistan and across most of Africa South of the Sahara. In addition, it is the most widely used language within the EU with 53& of Europeans having an understanding of the language. It is also the language of choice of many better-educated Europeans when looking up encyclopedic articles. Martinvl (talk) 14:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to assume it. We have statistics that demonstrate it. US-based readers are not just the largest group of readers of en.wiki - they're the majority. In many contexts you can add the Brits to that: nearly two thirds (63%) of our readership live in countries where miles are used as a measure of distance in every day life. If we had to use one system and one system only, our readership stats would suggest that the US Customary system would not be an unreasonable choice. But we don't.

One thing that this page certainly does not say is that we have to use SI or source-based units in all circumstances as you seem to imply. Where we have articles specifically connected to a given country (or time or person), the units we should be using are the ones in most common local use in the country or territory concerned. That's the whole point behind this guideline and we should be applying it across the board. If there is a commonly-used non-metric unit in Canada or New Zealand or South Africa, we should adopt it. Regardless of whether government sources also adopt it. It just happens that there are more such units in British and American usage than in many other places. Pfainuk talk 17:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's just get back to the wording. The present wording says:

Articles concerning Commonwealth countries in Africa, Asia and Australasia generally put metric units first.

This offers guidance about what to do in Sierra Leone (Commonwealth) but not Mali, Malaysia (Commonwealth) but not Indonesia, India (Commonwealth) but not Nepal. And yet we know that all of these countries are metric. I am trying to deal with this anomalous situation.

So whatever difficulties there might be with any suggested revisions, the wording as it stands is manifestly inconsistent.

Here is my suggestion, designed to deal with Pfainuk's concern about US and UK territories, and Martinvl's point about usage.

Articles on the US and some of its territories generally put United States customary units first.

Articles on the UK and some of its territories more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts. ....

Articles on other countries generally put metric units first.

I think that this answers the specific questions about the wording. Of course, it does not go into whether Myanmar or Liberia do or do not use metric measures or whether Government usage is the same as or different from popular usage. These exceptions are covered by the word, generally. Note also that in the case of the UK and the US the wording states that some of these territories use the same units, not all. Well known exceptions are Gibraltar (compared with the UK) and Puerto Rico (compared with the US).

Are there any other suggestions or criticisms? Michael Glass (talk) 08:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not feel that "generally" carries the implication you apply to it - particularly given that it's the same wording as used in the US case. Thus I find this proposal unacceptable. Add the word "most" before "other countries" and I may reconsider.

On the top parts, I think "some of its territories" is far too vague. "Most" instead of "some" would be a start. It seems reasonable to suggest that articles US and UK territories - including Crown Dependencies - should use the same units as articles on the US or UK (as appropriate) unless there is clear evidence of contrary local usage: obviously, "evidence" does not include speculation based on the unit choices of websites that may or may not reflect actual local usage. Pfainuk talk 21:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

On doing a quick check on which territories were covered, I'll accept most.

Articles on the US and most of its territories generally put United States customary units first.

Articles on the UK and most of its territories more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts. ....

For the other clause, I'm puzzled by your objection. Can you suggest a wording that you would find more acceptable? Michael Glass (talk) 23:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

In the point about the United States, "generally" refers only to units. In the point about other countries, "generally" refers both to units and to countries. But both are worded in exactly the same way and yet you are arguing that they mean different things. This is not how it's actually likely to be read. As I said, add the word "most" before the word "other countries", and this will allow for the possibility that there are some countries - Liberia and Burma being the most likely - where metric units should not generally be being put first. Pfainuk talk 14:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Most countries is too wide, as this only applies to Liberia and Myanmar, and in both these countries usage is mixed. Almost all would be closer to the mark. Perhaps this would be closer to what you meant:

Almost all other countries prefer the metric system; articles on them should generally follow this preference.

Any comments or suggestions? Michael Glass (talk) 23:55, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I looked at a selection of Misplaced Pages articles on Liberia and Burma (Myanmar) - in most instances metric units predominate. Martinvl (talk) 05:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Misplaced Pages has systematic bias. It shouldn't come as a surprise that we don't have a huge number of Liberian or Burmese editors here, and it shouldn't be surprising if people from outside those countries assume that the most appropriate units for a non-US or non-UK article are metric, regardless of whether this is accurate or not. The fact that there is systematic bias isn't an excuse for enshrining such bias in the MOS.

"Most" is appropriate IMO. We should allow for the fact that there may be cases where metric-first isn't appropriate. And I think I could do with a cite for your claim that units of measure in Liberia and Burma are mixed - bearing in mind that speculation based on the unit choices of websites that may or may not reflect local usage does not count. Pfainuk talk 17:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages lists 203 sovereign states. Other countries covers 201 of these states. There are only two possible exceptions to the statement that they all prefer the metric system. 99% justifies the phrase almost all.
• I can't speak about Myanmar, but the evidence for Liberia is clear that both metric and non-metric measures are used. See and also the County Development Agendas, ] where the use of units is inconsistent between the reports and often the reports themselves use both metric and non-metric units. However, the country has had a chaotic history of civil war ] and it is not surprising that there are some inconsistencies. Michael Glass (talk) 22:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I see sources of questionable reliability and sources that do not explicitly comment on the matter, plus the CIA and African Development Bank. They don't say that units are mixed, they just make the call in opposite directions. As you note, the civil war complicates things: for the most part I'd imagine that whether to use miles or kilometres was among the least of Liberians' worries. I see no evidence that "in both these countries usage is mixed" for either country.

I still think "most" is better. It avoids looking like it's trying to make a political point about the metric system unlike "almost all". Pfainuk talk 06:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Please look at the links I have supplied, and if that is not enough evidence for you I would be glad to provide other links to demonstrate that usage is mixed in Liberia. As for the difference between "most" and "almost all", it's the difference between making a clear underestimation of the spread of metrication and putting it more accurately. Of course "99 per cent of other countries" is another possibility. Would you agree to that? Michael Glass (talk) 13:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

You are convincing no-one, so I think it's time to stop now. _wjemather 13:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

nbsp contradiction

WP:NBSP says:

• Use a non-breaking space ...
  • in expressions in which figures and abbreviations (or symbols) are separated by a space (17 kg, AD 565, 2:50 pm);

Does that mean that nbsp's should be added to MOS:DOB before BC and BCE where it says:

• When only the years are known: "Socrates (470–399 BC) was..."

and

• When the reign of a sovereign is uncertain: "Rameses III (reigned c. 1180 BCE – c. 1150 BCE) ..."

? Art LaPella (talk) 17:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes? How is that a contradiction? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

If you mean "yes, the nbsp's should be added", then let's add them. (The contradiction is because the manual's examples don't follow its own prescription, but adding the nbsp's would resolve that problem.) Art LaPella (talk) 20:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

binary SI prefixes vs decimal SI prefixes

The SI should be recognized as one of the most widely adopted standards in business and science, and as such, should be followed when it comes to the meaning of SI prefixes, rather than following the use of kilo, mega, giga as powers of 2, which is confined to some parts of the computer industry. Nobody outside of engineers in the computer industry has any concern for calculating in powers of 1024. It's not only useless, it takes more time to make calculations, and can lead to confusion or errors. There are about 3 countries worldwide that have not yet adopted officially the SI: Burma (Myanmar), Liberia, and the United States (International System of Units).

NPOV is there to protect against abuses, not to make sensible changes impossible. In this case, it's a really good choice for coherence, and a greater consistency of units. I gain exactly the same as anyone else: better units and coherence. As a consequence, I think we should entirely remove the column "Binary Usage" of the templates "Quantities_of_bits" and "Quantities_of_bytes". At the very least, mark that column as "confusing" and/or "deprecated". Compvis (talk) 05:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

It is not true that "nobody outside of engineers in the computer industry has any concern for calculating in powers of 1024." Many people use computers for all kinds of purposes, and it isn't unheard of for non-engineers to need to know exactly how many bits or bytes are in a file, or will fit in a device. Since the computer industry has adopted the powers of 1024 meaning of prefixes, all users of computers are forced to understand these meanings. An alternative proposal exists, using prefixes such as kibi-, but the proposal has largely been ignored. It is not for Misplaced Pages to adopt a proposal that the general public has decided to ignore. Jc3s5h (talk) 06:19, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

"it isn't unheard of for non-engineers to need to know exactly how many bits or bytes are in a file" =>Indeed... In that case, if they want some precision, they wish to have this number in decimal to make calculations easier! If they are geek enough to want to have the exact number, then even if you try to stop them, they will still figure it out. Base 1024 doesn't have any advantage, whereas base 10 is a worldwide standard. Still, you haven't adressed any of my arguments, SI prefixes ought to be powers of 10 (for convenience, and to follow the most widely used standards related to the subject), and it's an historical error that it's sometimes hasn't. When will people say "Yes, we screwed up, kilobytes ought not to have 1024 bytes, just like kilometers ought not to have 1024 meters, and the same for kilograms, kilonewtons, kilopascal, etc..."?.

For others arguments, please see "SI is one of the most..." Compvis (talk) 03:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

This has been debated to death time and time again, with several people getting blocked over this due to the all-out warfare mentality of several participants. See the 16 MoS archives dedicates to these discussions (B1–B16, linked in the archive box found in the top right corner of the page), as well as countless RfCs on it. When the computer industry decides to stop using K, M, G, etc... to mean powers of 1024, so will Misplaced Pages. So unless you can show that this practice is significantly less popular today than last time, you'll won't get much enthusiasm to re-open this issue as most will consider this to be a WP:DEADHORSE. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 04:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Did you ever consider that[REDACTED] gets the first place for a lot of searches? Of (kilo, mega, giga, tera) X (bit, byte), the only case where[REDACTED] is not the first result on google is gigabit, in which case it is fourth. Do you expect this madness to stop? Don't you think the industry justifies their stance on the units by saying "look at all these people that use it that way (including a lot of people on wikipedia)"? Apple has seen the light on this matter. With all due respect, I consider this to be a WP:LACK_OF_UNDERSTANDING_OF_THE_WORTH_OF_CONSISTENCY_IN_UNITS, and a WP:DESIRE_TO_LET_THINGS_GO_BACK_TO_MIDDLE_AGES_WHERE_EVERY_UNIT_WAS_KINGDOM_DEPENDENT. Compvis (talk) 13:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox upon which to promote your view of how things OUGHT to be. Misplaced Pages merely describes how things currently are; and the fact is that (at least to my knowledge) the binary use of the SI prefixes with respect to quantities of data is still (unfortunately) current widespread practice and the IEC -bi- units are virtually unused (sadly). Also, this is a style guideline, so discussing the template is off-topic IMO (I cannot even begin to follow the logic of the editor who suggested that you bring your discussion here). Now, if you wanted to suggest something like following the IEC's usage suggestions when reporting data quantities in Misplaced Pages articles, that would be relevant (and I for one would support it). --Cybercobra (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Interested parties might want to read this Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes we're all aware of things. I'm personally pro-IEC prefix. However I also recognize that's a minority use. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 23:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok I read the soapbox article. The question that people should ask is the following: If "content hosted in Misplaced Pages is not for: Advocacy, propaganda", then why is Misplaced Pages, by trying to describe "things as they are" (and being ranked so well), "promoting/advocating" the status quo? The real problem is that nothing is neutral, or even close to being so. Misplaced Pages promotes status quo. Thank you Misplaced Pages, we really need more confusion in the units, as if it hadn't been hard enough to get the SI adopted. I like having three likely meanings for mega! Can i haz more?

Regarding the link to Thunderbird2's talk page that user was just about to get blocked for disruptive editing and pushing a minority point of view against consensus. The consensus is that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, it therefore represents that world as it is. In this specific topic the world has rejected using the SI and IEC prefixes as those organisations advocate.Glider87 (talk) 09:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

"Rejection" is a tad strong. More like "failed to adopt". --Cybercobra (talk) 09:45, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, WP should describe the world as is, but this should be in a way to avoid misunderstandings by the non-initiated reader. Therefore disambiguating ambiguous units would be valuable. And since an international standard is available, why not use it for that purpose? −Woodstone (talk) 09:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

SI/IEC isn't the disambiguation standard used in the real world. This means to use SI/IEC here would be pushing a point of view and soapish. This is exactly why they shouldn't be used here on Misplaced Pages. In the real world if disambiguation is used then the number of bytes is written. Glider87 (talk) 10:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• To put it simply, WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT or WP:ILIKEIT for advocating SI/IEC is not an argument suitable to use in talk page discussions. In the world SI/IEC use is strictly in the minority therefore they are not to be used here except in the most rare and specific cases when they are specifically the topic of articles. Also in the world SI/IEC use for disambiguation is also strictly in the minority therefore that methpod is not to be used here either. Misplaced Pages uses the methods demonstrated by the real world and this means using the prefixes KB and MB and others in the binary sense or decimal sense. This also means that if disambiguation is needed then the real world method of writing the precise number is to be used on Misplaced Pages. Glider87 (talk) 10:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Compvis, once a comment has been left up and responded to it is customary to use the strike feature if you want to retract some text instead of removing it completely . This preserves the talk page flow and context for the archives. I have put back the text using the strike tags.Glider87 (talk) 22:24, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Use of precise numerical value provides a very good disambiguation. But by insisting on that as the only acceptable disambiguation, Misplaced Pages has shot itself in the foot. (I suspect that, by deprecating IEC prefixes, the present wording is interpreted as a licence not to disambiguate). To put my point a different way, to insist on an exact number of bytes poses a high effort threshold, and most editors probably cannot be bothered. It is (much) easier to add the missing “i” in “GB” where needed than to type a complicated footnote explaining that “GB” sometimes means one thing and sometimes another, in every single article. The task of converting to precise values, if that is really necessary, can then be carried out by a bot. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

MoS naming style

There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB (talk) 20:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

What exactly does "last winter" or "in the spring" mean?

I have found this type of "date" in a few articles. Its quite common particularly in articles on "popular culture" subjects. For example a rock band's next world tour is described as "starting in the spring of 2011". As a denizen of the southern hemisphere I find this usage particularly irritating. Have schools stopped teaching that it isn't spring/summer/autumn/winter everywhere at the same time? I'd like to suggest that such "dates" be specifically banned unless they are used to describe actual seasonal phenomena such as "swallows arrive in the spring" or "heatwaves are very rare in winter". Roger (talk) 14:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the usage is perfectly fine when the location is well-specified from context (e.g. a "world tour" that only tours the northern hemisphere). For example, we usually don't object to "in the night" even though it's not night everywhere at the same time. In any case, where/if this is inappropriate, this seems the sort of thing easily fixed with an edit or discussion on the article's page, not something worth adding to the bulk of the already bloated MoS. Shreevatsa (talk) 14:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Shreevatsa. Maurreen (talk) 14:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I suppose one could say "third quarter of 2011" instead, but that does sound rather weird. I agree it's hemisphere-centric though, so if you have a better idea... --Cybercobra (talk) 14:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

At WP:VG Q1,Q2, etc is understood by the regular editors to be the desired date indicator for video games with tentative release dates. The only problem is that we end up replacing a single season with Q3/Q4 because "Fall" means different months depending which part of North America or Europe the reader happens to be in. We also convert financial quarters in to month ranges (calendar) when we've discovered what a company's financial year start/end is. If I find any seasons I just change them to Q1 etc and point the edit summary towards WP:SEASON - X201 (talk) 14:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

WP:SEASON seems to be the solution, thanks! I supose the correct way to deal with problematic "season" usage would be to add a {{clarify}} tag and point to WP:SEASON in the edit note. Roger (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The British press will often write "The English cricket team are going to Australia for the winter ...". My response is that they are not, they are going there to get away from the winter! Martinvl (talk) 05:15, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

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