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Samuel-is-really-Saul material

User:FDuffy appears to have identified a single source for claims that critical scholars believe that Samuel in the story of Hannah (Bible) really refers to Saul. No source is given in this article. User:FDuffy identified a source in the King Saul article, as the personal web site of Rabbi Moshe Reiss, , a self-published source. Per WP:RS,

A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

None of the exceptions to self-published sources (e.g. by someone known to be highly regarded in a field) appear to apply here. Accordingly, it appears that this content is not reliably sourced and should be deleted. --Shirahadasha 13:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the material deleted (from the Name section)

In contrast to this, critical scholars believe that 1 Samuel 1:20 originally described Saul<ref>for example, New American Bible, footnote on 1 Samuel 1:20</ref>, a later editor substituting Samuel's name, in order to avoid the impression that Saul was originally dedicated to God, and had divine circumstances around his birth. This belief of critical scholars is attributed to the fact that Saul means asked, hence Hannah naming her child Saul because she had asked God for him makes more sense than her naming him Name of God or Heard of God.

--Shirahadasha 13:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Maurice Reiss is not my source. Indeed, I had never heard of him until Shirahadasha mentioned his name and website. My source is the Jewish Encyclopedia; corroborated by the New American Bible footnote (which, I must point out, is actually stated in the reference tag in the above quote  !!!!!). The claim of Shirahadasha that no source is given in the article is clearly totally untrue - the quote Shirahadasha gives clearly states a source within the reference tags. I find it disingenous to say the least, if not outright malicious, for Shirahadasha to make false claims about my sources, particularly when one of the actual sources is clearly given in the text itself. --User talk:FDuffy 18:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought it would be interesting to note that JewishEncyclopedia.com makes no mention that the story of the early years of Samuel could have been Saul's. It's interesting, though, that they mention that the battle of Mizpah could have actually been led by Saul. JJ Dangerously 13:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the article seems devoted to prove that Samuel and Saul were the same person. I don't see the point. Other than the similarity in name, there's no real proof. You wouldn't say Bill Clinton and Bill Gates are the same person. I hear you saying "of coarse not! they have different last names!" so did Samuel and Saul. Samuel's last name was "son of Elkanah, an Ephraimite, judge of Isreal" and Saul's was "son of Kish, a Benjamite, king of Isreal" I'd also liked to make two things extremely clear: Samuel and Saul stood in different places at the same time on multiple occasions!!!!!!! (1 Samuel 9, 10, 11:7, 13:, 15, 16:1-2, 19:) and Samuel was DEAD BEFORE Saul!!!!! (1 Samuel 28)68.50.57.15 (talk) 17:30, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Totally disputed

The vast majority of references and explanations to the name Samuel include the explanation that it is a simple Hebrew sentence: "God has heard", (Remember Hebrew puts the verb first being a VSO language) rather than the awkwardly induced "Heard of God" that only a non Hebrew speaker would come up with. My citation to that effect has been deleted and a whole lot of pov pushing supposedly from the Jewish Encyclopedia has gone up in its place. Also, my red flag always goes up whenever I read that "Most scholars" are "in agreement" about anything to do with the Bible, since I know the fact is that Biblical scholars have seldom been "in agreement" on any single thing for the past 2000 years. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of internet references are based on a literal reading of the bible. Most non-fundamentalists do not evangelise, and hence there are a significantly higher proportion of internet sites reflecting a Bible-Is-Totally-True POV than there are reflecting a What-Do-Internationally-Reputable-Scholars-Think POV. Most scholars are content with publishing in academic journals, hence leading to the internet's systemic bias in this matter. Many internet, and other "Hebrew name origin" texts, are based on Easton's, and Concordances, rather than on checking up on the scholarly consensus.

Biblical Scholars may have seldom been "in agreement" on any single thing, but there have certainly been consensus on many. Its the difference between "scientists are not in total agreement that evolution is accurate" and "99% of scientists think evolution is accurate" (see Project Steve for the rough source of the statistic); both are true, but one is a technicality and woefully misleading.

Anyway, regardless of my personal opinion, and yours, (WP:NOR), the Jewish Encyclopedia clearly spells out the Samuel = name of God/son of God/Priest position as the majority position (its somewhat non-NPOV manner of expressing this notwithstanding). The position is also expressed as statement-of-fact in a number of modern (pro-Christian) Bible translations (in footnotes). --User talk:FDuffy 18:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User FDuffy, please provide actual citations to the sources you have repeatedly claimed are out there. Misplaced Pages cannot rely on your personal word that they exist. The articles you have edited with this claim remain essentially unsourced. As discussed, the 1901-1906 Jewish Encyclopedia often isn't a reliable source for what people believe today, although you're welcome to list it as an "according to". Also, as you indicate, its "somewhat NPOV manner" doesn't seem to permit claims that it is what "most" people believed even in its day. There's no evidence at all that this speculation is as well-established as, say, evolution. --Shirahadasha 04:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 21:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Judges 27?

Hello, I skimmed the discussion and didn't notice any question on this so forgive me if this is repeated :). Where is Judges 27? Is this an outside source other then the Bible? Just wondering because there are only 21 chapters in the book of Judges. I am also making reference to this because I am curious with your source on how Elkanah was a Levite. (JulaBee (talk) 23:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC))

The reference seems to be Judges 17:7, according to the cited article in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Tb (talk) 18:52, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The Radak...

...says that Shmuel is derived from Sha'ul me'El. Though someone here might find that a bit interesting. Ayin/Yud 17:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Shemu'el

Agreed with previous poster. The proper translation of Shemu'el is "God has heard". "Shemu'" does come from the Hebrew root (transliterated into English) of sh-m-', meaning "to hear" or, more correctly, "he (has) heard."

As to the note about Samuel being "Saul" material, the source for this is dated. Moreover, it does not make much sense to me since Samuel's prophetic career spans TWO kings--Saul and his successor, David. Whoever the writer was, it doesn't seem (in my opinion) to lend credence to a schizophrenic Samuel, conversing with his own ghost at Endor. :) Jbeck-ot 04:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

How about adding a list of significant people named Samuel?

I think I'll work on one. Any reason I shouldn't?

Hi! As the article title says, this is the article on the Samuel who appears in the Bible, so any other Samuel should appear in a different article. There is a Samuel article which is more general, however suggest a new article titled List of people named Samuel or similar. Note that some lists of this type have been deleted, so suggest starting with a short list and see if it meets any objections before putting a lot of work into it. --Shirahadasha 03:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be a very long list, and rather pointless.PiCo 07:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If the glove doesn't fit, you must aquit.

Sorry about the stupid title, I had to have fun somewhere. But in all seriousness, Samuel is a figure that has for a long time been considered a staple in the old testament (looking at this from a catholic perspective, by the way), and has been taught as a profit and the anointer of kings for David and Saul. He is agreed by many to be his own important figure, not just a misinterpretation. Now, one possible translation error in ancient scrolls doesn't qualify nullifying his article in my opinion. Especially since there are thousands of different translators, each of whom has their own variance on the story, as well as many others. In fact, varying biblical translations are ever-expanding field that doesn't seem to have an end in sight. So far for a very long time many different religious scholars have agreed on his authenticity, enough to have him in the current versions of the stories in the bible, and to give him a mention in the Catholic Encyclopedia (under Kings I-II). I think that we should acknowledge the general consensus that Samuel is his own figure, and that he should stay that way, at least until there is concrete evidence which verifies the claim that Samuel is actually Saul, and debunks the previous evidence to his existence. 208.58.3.115 06:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Crapola

The Wiki article on Samuel is a bunch of liberal higher critical crapola. Why not just tell the story of Samuel as it's recorded in the Bible? If the author was trying to be helpful, any merit from the story is obscured by irrelevant speculation and unnecessary criticism.

Lead section edited

I removed the word "important" from the lead sentence as the facts speak for themselves. I think the first two sentences should be merged, actually, or otherwise cleaned up a little. -- Kyle Maxwell (talk) 06:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

How old was Samuel?

1 part of the article implies that Samuel was at the age of maturity when God first spoke to him. However, I have not been able to find out how we know this. In other words, cindication needed. --68.50.57.15 (talk) 23:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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