| Revision as of 14:38, 21 August 2010 editJeffro77 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers31,676 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:04, 28 August 2010 edit undoFlowerman75 (talk | contribs)64 edits →Jehovah's Witnesses in CubaNext edit → | ||
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| This article is not linked yet. ] (]) 12:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC) | This article is not linked yet. ] (]) 12:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC) | ||
| :As indicated at ], JW activities in Cuba are not especially notable, and the article is not properly supported by reliable third-party sources. Even it were, there would be little reason to conspicuously link to it from the main JW article. ''If'' it is retained, it might be appropriate to link to it from ] and/or ], however that action would currently be premature, pending the result of the current AfD.--] (]) 14:38, 21 August 2010 (UTC) | :As indicated at ], JW activities in Cuba are not especially notable, and the article is not properly supported by reliable third-party sources. Even it were, there would be little reason to conspicuously link to it from the main JW article. ''If'' it is retained, it might be appropriate to link to it from ] and/or ], however that action would currently be premature, pending the result of the current AfD.--] (]) 14:38, 21 August 2010 (UTC) | ||
| ==Sexual allegation merge inside social Issues== | |||
| I have merged Sexual allegations inside social Issues. The Sexual allegations(not proved as a fact) is a minor issue which is made famous only by few Ex.JW's. Further 'Sexual allegations' heading can make the reader to misunderstand it as a similar serious case's found in other churches. Never found any such criticism section(Even criticism topic) in main article about other church. Even then it is here, but sexual allegation with a special heading is too much. I am not comparing with other articles but saying a honest fact. Further it can find right place inside Social issues heading. Seem like a POV necessary since their is no topic on opposition or persecution (see http://jw-media.org for current oppositions) but four great headings given on criticism.Honestly..] (]) 13:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
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District and Circuit Overseers appointed by branches not by Governing Body
To note on this same paragraph above, Local branches rather than the Governing Body appoint circuit and district overseers. See -"Under the direction of the holy spirit, Branch Committees recommend mature, spiritual men to serve as circuit and district overseers." The references are noted in an above paragraph. Natural (talk) 14:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Source says they recommend them for appointment, not that they appoint them. The source you have partially quoted (The Watchtower, 15 March 1990, page 20) actually says, "Under the direction of the holy spirit, Branch Committees recommend mature, spiritual men to serve as circuit and district overseers. After being appointed directly by the Governing Body, they serve as traveling overseers." (emphasis added)--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, it does say that about circuit and district overseers.Natural (talk) 13:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
Traveling overseers appointed by GBJW
- Relatedly, the article Organizational structure of Jehovah's Witnesses should probably have two new subheadings under Governing Body, for:
- That would make the place of those persons (role descriptions) more clear in the organizational flowchart. As is described elsewhere regarding JWs...
- Whereas a branch office may be under a corporation, branch committees answer directly to the GBJW.
- Whereas districts and circuits are under branches, district and circuit (and zone) overseers in significant respects are answerable primarily to the GBJW (the various branch office staff handles secondary workaday matters).
- I'll try to get around to it, but am pretty busy IRL. --AuthorityTam (talk) 22:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Copied to Talk:Organizational structure of Jehovah's Witnesses#Traveling overseers. Preferable to discuss at that article's Talk page.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
"Failed prophecies" references
Two references here under subheading "Failed prophecies" do not support BlackCab's Viewpoint about the word "prophet". These two references do not state or imply that Jehovah's Witnesses are a "prophet". They can't be used in this spot to support BlackCab's personal viewpoint and that of some other religious opposers. The word prophet is not to be found in the Jehovah's Witnesses - Proaclaimers of God's Kingdom referenced here.
^ "Messengers of Godly Peace Pronounced Happy", The Watchtower, May 1, 1997, page 21 ^ Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, Watch Tower Society, 1993, page 708.
Natural (talk) 13:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The Proclaimers book quite clearly refers to God revealing to Jehovah's Witnesses his "will" and purpose for the future. You are correct that the word "prophet" does not appear in the Proclaimers book at that point. However it makes an identical point to that presented in the 1972 WT cited, which reads, "In ancient times he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come, they also served the people by telling them of God’s will for them at that time, often also warning them of dangers and calamities ... So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? ... Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses". The "Proclaimers" book discussion has blindingly obvious connections to the other material cited at that point that states the Watch Tower teaching that the organization and slave class are his modern day prophet. The four sources cited make a parallel point. The fact that one of those lacks the word "prophet" does not negate it as a support for the full statement of the WT teaching. BlackCab (talk) 13:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree that those references do not clearly express a claim to be a prophet, though the the May 1 1997 Watchtower does imply such by the scripture quoted in the introduction, "The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets", followed by statements that those prophets acted as messengers, and that JWs do the same thing today. I do not object to those references being removed. In any cases, the point does not require four separate citations; however, the other two references for the statement are entirely suitable.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have divided the sentence, applying the references to the explicit claims. Where publications have made the claim that Witnesses are God's modern prophet, the sources are cited. Statements that God uses the Witnesses to declare his will and intentions but fail to directly use the word "prophet" cite those sources. BlackCab (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- JW's are criticized for being false prophets. It doesn't really matter if JW's outright declare themselves as prophets for this statement to be factual. They are criticized for making false claims about the future, which some sources term as being "false prophets". If this is determined to be inflammatory, I'm in favor of more diplomatic language, however, the statement itself is factual. — fcsuper (Exclusionistic Immediatist ) — 16:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have divided the sentence, applying the references to the explicit claims. Where publications have made the claim that Witnesses are God's modern prophet, the sources are cited. Statements that God uses the Witnesses to declare his will and intentions but fail to directly use the word "prophet" cite those sources. BlackCab (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agree that those references do not clearly express a claim to be a prophet, though the the May 1 1997 Watchtower does imply such by the scripture quoted in the introduction, "The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets", followed by statements that those prophets acted as messengers, and that JWs do the same thing today. I do not object to those references being removed. In any cases, the point does not require four separate citations; however, the other two references for the statement are entirely suitable.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Trim
I intend to do some trimming of this article in the very near future. The article is currently 126kb; by comparison, Catholic Church is 91kb and Seventh Day Adventist Church is 81kb. The editing guideline for long pages suggests splitting articles over 100kb. I don't intend at this stage (subject to change) to remove any whole sections.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- The depth and detail of the footnotes section adds a fair bit to the length. At its current editible length (120kb) its readable prose is about 108kb, which is only a little above the arbitrary 100kb figure mentioned in WP:SIZERULE. BlackCab (talk) 07:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. I'll be looking for unnecessarily long quotes in references when I take a closer look later too, when I'm a little more focused. Thanks for the trimming you've already done.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- The criticisms subheading of this article seems a bit large in comparison with the rest of the article. Since there trimming to be done, I recommend relying on the Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses article for much of this material, and shortening this section up a bit. — fcsuper (Exclusionistic Immediatist ) — 17:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have, on more than one occasion, attempted to trim the criticisms section. It always seems to expand again as both critical and counter-critical statements are added for "better balance" and "clarity/understanding". Best of luck; let me know if I can help in any way. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:34, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have trimmed the criticisms section, deleting some of the lesser issues and rebuttals. They all remain in the main spinout article. BlackCab (talk) 23:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Is the "Main publications used" section needed in the main article? It strikes me as unnecessary detail and not terribly informative to casual readers. Deleting that section would help reduce the article length without any great loss. BlackCab (talk) 23:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I support condensing the Criticism section, but I don't think it should be done in quite the manner as Pediainsight's approach of simply deleting all but the first paragraph of a subsection. It needs closer attention than that to retain only the most important points. I'll take a closer look at this on the weekend.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I too support condensing the criticism section. May be also History section if possible. Catholic church criticisms given in a separate article is too large when compared to JW's. Even then in the main Catholic church article not even a single line in given about criticism. Also please note of the comments I have given below about importance of a persecution and legal Challenges heading...matrix356 (talk) 18:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
distinct from mainstream Christianity
The statement "distinct from mainstream Christianity" in the opening sentence seem extraneous and overly specific and rather redundant to the rest of the sentence. Given the fact that the referenced "mainstream Christianity" itself is also dubious, I propose removing this seemingly unnecessary and weaselly comparison. An item is defined by what it is, not by what it is not. — fcsuper (Exclusionistic Immediatist ) — 17:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- But when you say a church is "Christian", most people assume mainstream. So the distinction is important for the opening sentence. We define the church as Christian, and refine our definition by saying "not mainstream". This sentence has been discussed ad nauseum in the talk archives and I personally think it's about as good as it's gonna get. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- The current wording was arrived at after yet another lengthy debate about whether JWs are 'really' Christian. Please refer to Talk archives 49 through 51.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- The distinction from mainstream is necessary.By then why is the template box on Christianity given at bottom? Is it necessary? I am not sure if a debate had occurred before about it, anyway it makes article look clumsy with two large templates along with an info-box..matrix356 (talk) 18:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
- Each of the three boxes (2 templates, 1 infobox) is directly relevant to the article, and they are located in the best possible sections with respect to relevance. The article is about Jehovah's Witnesses so the templates related to them must be first. The Christianity template is in the Beliefs section (not simply at the bottom of the article) for contrast with JW beliefs. If we remove the Christianity box, people complain.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- The distinction from mainstream is necessary.By then why is the template box on Christianity given at bottom? Is it necessary? I am not sure if a debate had occurred before about it, anyway it makes article look clumsy with two large templates along with an info-box..matrix356 (talk) 18:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
- The current wording was arrived at after yet another lengthy debate about whether JWs are 'really' Christian. Please refer to Talk archives 49 through 51.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Persecution and legal challenges
It is noteworthy that one of the major religion which was persecuted in 20th Century is JW's. Also legal challenges for them had considerable effect on most countries legislation.But in this article not even a sub-heading is given for persecution and legal Challenges.Only some minor statements about persecution inside the history heading is given.But more importance is given to criticisms.As per wiki rules articles above 100 KB should be trimmed.Sexual allegations and social Issues may be brought under a heading Other criticisms and some statements can be shifted to criticism main article. I suggest editors to consider shift the persecution contents from history section to a Persecution and legal challenges section below Demographics with a link to main article for Persecution and Legal Challenges..matrix356 (talk) 15:32, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Jehovah's Witnesses in Cuba
This article is not linked yet. Sarcelles (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- As indicated at the AfD for that page, JW activities in Cuba are not especially notable, and the article is not properly supported by reliable third-party sources. Even it were, there would be little reason to conspicuously link to it from the main JW article. If it is retained, it might be appropriate to link to it from Demographics of Jehovah's Witnesses and/or Jehovah's Witnesses by country, however that action would currently be premature, pending the result of the current AfD.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:38, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Sexual allegation merge inside social Issues
I have merged Sexual allegations inside social Issues. The Sexual allegations(not proved as a fact) is a minor issue which is made famous only by few Ex.JW's. Further 'Sexual allegations' heading can make the reader to misunderstand it as a similar serious case's found in other churches. Never found any such criticism section(Even criticism topic) in main article about other church. Even then it is here, but sexual allegation with a special heading is too much. I am not comparing with other articles but saying a honest fact. Further it can find right place inside Social issues heading. Seem like a POV necessary since their is no topic on opposition or persecution (see http://jw-media.org for current oppositions) but four great headings given on criticism.Honestly..Flowerman75 (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
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