| Revision as of 03:16, 10 November 2010 editDylan Flaherty (talk | contribs)3,508 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 04:25, 10 November 2010 edit undoSW3 5DL (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers21,544 edits →Moved from project page: moved to discussionNext edit → | ||
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| :::] ] (]) 03:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC) | :::] ] (]) 03:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC) | ||
| :I'm sorry to say that Malke has made some demonstrably false claims. | |||
| :If you look at the section, you will find a discussion from last week where we considered "grassroots", "conservative", "populist", "libertarian" and even "right wing". At the bottom of that first section, you can find my summary, which is endorsed by Rjensen and North8000 but repeatedly rejected by Malke. | |||
| :Elsewhere in the same snapshot, we have a section entitled , in which we discuss a number of recent changes against consensus. Here, some IP editors, 75.88.83.74 and 9.39.184.178 added their support, as did North (again) and TFD (The Four Deuces), while Digiphi objected. | |||
| :There is plenty more on that page regarding grassroots, funding and astroturf, but it should be very clear that Malke's claim that I was the only one who objected to "grassroots" has been demonstrated to be false. | |||
| :I could go on, but I think we need to refocus on the neutrality issue, not just a count of hands. We have too many sources opposed to "grassroots" to just pretend they don't exist. That, ultimately, is the real issue. ] (]) 03:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 04:25, 10 November 2010
Moved from project page
Before the elections, when more editors were participating, there had been an extended discussion regarding what terms to use in the lead, and a clear consensus formed in favor of "conservative", "populist" and (slightly less so) "libertarian", but against "right wing", "grassroots" and other terms. This version of the lead stood up to multiple attempts to add or subtract terms, showing the strength of the consensus.
Now that activity has died down, a number of more-interested editors are pushing very hard for "grassroots". However, there have been sources put forth which are intended to show that the grassroots nature of the movement is actively denied by elements both inside and outside, including activists, politicians and journalists. Generally, those who deny that the movement is currently and wholly grassroots use the characterization of "astroturf", and point to funding by the GOP, the Koch brothers and others. (Note that there is no interest in adding "astroturf" to the lead.) The editors in favor of "grassroots" argue that the sources pro are reliable while those con are not. (unsigned by Dylan Flaherty)
- Not quite. There's also a dispute as to which version is the "stable" version; there was a previous "stable" version with "grassroots", but without "populist". (unsigned by Arthur Rubin)
- There is no doubt that the version that was stable and had explicit consensus recently -- in the days before the election -- had "populist" but not "grassroots". I have no idea what versions from further in the past had, but it doesn't actually matter. Ultimately, the dispute is forward-facing, so your interjection here adds little of value. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 05:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
- There was a stable version before that "extensive discussion", which had "grassroots" and had some other differences. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yep. That's why we're looking to mediation. There was consensus about the grassroots in the lead, which developed on the discussion page, and now that has become outdated. It's because you and others disagree that we create new consensus. We don't just maintain the the long-standing consensus in perpetuity and tell you "tough luck". Since the issue is now heavily controverted again, which is obvious by your (Dylan) and other editors' comments on the talk page, it's time to develop consensus one way or the other again. -Digiphi (Talk) 15:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC
- There was a stable version before that "extensive discussion", which had "grassroots" and had some other differences. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
- There is no doubt that the version that was stable and had explicit consensus recently -- in the days before the election -- had "populist" but not "grassroots". I have no idea what versions from further in the past had, but it doesn't actually matter. Ultimately, the dispute is forward-facing, so your interjection here adds little of value. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 05:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
- The only thing that's changed since we gained a consensus against "grassroots" is that the total number of editors declined after the elections, leaving behind true believers who now wish the article to be more pro-TPM. I mean you. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 01:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to say that Malke has made some demonstrably false claims.
- If you look at the "consensus for words to use in lead" section, you will find a discussion from last week where we considered "grassroots", "conservative", "populist", "libertarian" and even "right wing". At the bottom of that first section, you can find my summary, which is endorsed by Rjensen and North8000 but repeatedly rejected by Malke.
- Elsewhere in the same snapshot, we have a section entitled "Breaking the lead, still", in which we discuss a number of recent changes against consensus. Here, some IP editors, 75.88.83.74 and 9.39.184.178 added their support, as did North (again) and TFD (The Four Deuces), while Digiphi objected.
- There is plenty more on that page regarding grassroots, funding and astroturf, but it should be very clear that Malke's claim that I was the only one who objected to "grassroots" has been demonstrated to be false.
- I could go on, but I think we need to refocus on the neutrality issue, not just a count of hands. We have too many sources opposed to "grassroots" to just pretend they don't exist. That, ultimately, is the real issue. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 03:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)