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Hi Motmit! welcome to Misplaced Pages!

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I hope you stick around and keep contributing to Misplaced Pages. Drop us a note at Misplaced Pages:New user log. If you need help, you can drop a note on my talk page or use Misplaced Pages:New contributors' help page. You can also type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Hope you enjoy contributing to Misplaced Pages! utcursch | talk 15:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

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Rayment refs

Well done making the ref more specific, but there was no need for the uncivil edit summary. I have seen numerous similar edit summaries by you for similar ref improvements, and they are not WP:CIVIL. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:17, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry sweetheart - but some of yours are pretty tetchy too! :) Motmit (talk) 21:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Most of those rayment refs were added ages ago, by a variety of editors, before more specific templates were available. It is of course better to improve them, which also I regularly do, but calling them "stupid" or "useless" as you routinely do is quite unnecessary. I do not describe such improvements of old references in uncivil terms. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

With respect, I don't think you quite realised what was happening here.

The reference that is appearing, as of the time of writing, on several House of Commons constituency articles through the {{Rayment}} template is as follows . This returns a page that is titled "The Peerages of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom" and it contains an index of all the UK etc peerages. It does not contain any information at all that is relevant to House of Commons constituencies; nor does it provide easy access to such information. It is no more than stating the facts to say that a table of peerages provided as a reference for a constituency is useless and that it is being replaced by a more useful or more sensible one. It is extremely annoying when trying to create lots of decent articles on MP's to be hampered by an unhelpful look-up and to be forced to spend time putting things right. It is not really unduly unreasonable to highlight the situation as being stupid or a silly nonsense. Now for the record, here is the full list of the "numerous similar edit summaries" which are referred to disparagingly above. These began on August 17.

Perhaps they suggest an increasing level of irritation, light hearted sometimes, but hardly unreasonable given the situation. They were half intended to alert to a situation and it is interesting that it took the until last one to provoke a response, albeit unsympathetic. (NB Dambig is my silly abbreviation for disambiguate which relates to another change made at the same time)

Now it is actually unfair to blame any of those good souls who took the trouble to add the template to the constituency articles in the first place, because when they added the template, it linked to a completely different page as here . This is the high level Leigh Rayment menu which includes the "House of Commons" and which was a satisfactory reference though not as specific as it could have been.

What has happened is that sombody came along and decided to change the template. It really is not a good idea to tinker with a template without thinking through the consequences properly, but this is precisely what happened on 11 August 2010. I am sure this was done in good faith and with the best intentions, but it has had the unfortunate effect of providing a large number of articles with an inappropriate reference. It has caused great annoyance and slowed down the work of one editor at least. And it could have resulted in an editor posting critical comments to those who had innocently added the template.

Now that it has come to light, one can only hope that the person responsible will finish the job by putting right as quickly as possible not just the constituency articles but also numerous other articles that have become incorrectly referenced as a result. I know that this could be done by checking the "What links here" on the Rayment template page - but a smart user may find a simpler way. And if you are wondering who was responsible for changing the template, creating this confusion and raising my blood pressure - well I am sorry to have to point out Regards Motmit (talk) 09:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

If someone can tell me what our medium term objective is here and how to use the new Rayment template (I know I could search), I'll back fix the constituencies pointing at the "The Peerages of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom" page. Thanks. Crooked cottage (talk) 10:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

CC - It is extremely generous of you to offer to help clear up the unsatisfactory situation has arisen since BrownHairedGirl changed the Rayment template without full regard to the consequences. Particularly so as you yourself have been treated to unfriendly edit summaries from BrownHairedGirl such as "rm pointless extra word which restricts scope of the section" which was repeated successively over twenty times directly in reponse to your own edits as a relatively new editor. You will appreciate that I was particularly narked when BrownHairedGirl added insult to injury by making accusations of incivility about my edit summaries in a characteristic back handed compliment. These were simple statements of fact rather than personally directed opinions. I was not after all aware that BrownHairedGirl had changed the template.

Anyway it does not yet seem that that editor responsible has made any effort to sort out the situation, so your help would be most welcome. It would be useful if all the constituency articles linked to the relevant Rayment page as Rayment provides vital dates for MPs. The Rayment website divides constituencies into pages alphabetically which are then subdivided further. The top level House of Commons table is which lists the sub pages. So for the first page of constituencies beginning with B we use the template parameterised as {{rayment-hc|b|1}} You change the letter or number as necessary, and you will see examples in my "condemned" edit summaries above. If there is only one page for a letter as for F I and J then you drop the number and the preceding | mark. As well as those that incorrectly link to the peerage, there are a few constituencies that do not have a link to rayment at all and it would be useful to add those. Quite a number only have the top level House of Commons page - I can live with that but it would be a good little tidy up job if anyone wants to do it.

And for the record, these examples from just the last couple of days are what in my opinion is not acceptable in a edit summary

Obscenity

Which part of "get lost" do you not understand??????)

Regards and best wishes - Motmit (talk) 22:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I've formed the same opinion of what needs to be done here having looked at a few dozen articles over the last couple of days, but it is good to know we concur. I'll be going through all the articles over the next few months, and adding this information.

I've no wish to upset anyone, as it's not the way I work. In particular BrownHairedGirl has been very helpful to me with an article I'm in the process of writing. I'm looking forward to working with all the experienced editors in the UK elections area. Crooked cottage (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you BrownHairedGirl for correcting the constituencies, and well done for going the extra mile - or two - or three .....Motmit (talk) 12:29, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome. We're getting there. Crooked cottage (talk) 13:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

And to you for walking an extra crooked mile to earn a crooked sixpence.:) Motmit (talk) 19:33, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Motmit, it's all part of the process of improvement. Sometimes one change requires others, but eventually we get there.

I don't see how all your trawling for diffs assisted that process; when you had spotted that a change of mine has an unintended side-effect we could have discussed how to fix it, but since you seemed to prefer being annoyed to finding a solution, I left you to it.

I was a little bemused by your note on my talk about being "a little bit more careful in future", since I encounter several times a week articles where you have inferred facts from sources which don't state them, and got them wrong. The latest was one I encountered today: Sir Edmund Buckley, 1st Baronet, which you created and left with the wrong dates for his parliamentary career, the wrong link to the Hansard site, and missing a bundle of categories.

The solution, of course, is to WP:SOFIXIT. Trawling through your contribs for unrelated diffs wouldn't have improved anything for readers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl wrote -

"I don't see how all your trawling for diffs assisted that process; when you had spotted that a change of mine has an unintended side-effect we could have discussed how to fix it, but since you seemed to prefer being annoyed to finding a solution, I left you to it."

Answers from motmit

Misplaced Pages is about Verifiability - you "inferred facts" and made a sweeping statement and an unsubstantiated generalisation about my behaviour. I responded by listing the diffs. It was no big deal for me to check back through my edits and I am sorry for you if you dont like it that the evidence shows your criticism was unjustified..

I had no idea that you had caused the problem before you came onto my talk page to deliver gratuitous criticism. When you saw that my edit summary highlighted a problem, instead of investigating and attacking the problem, you chose to attack the person. As they say "Don't shoot the messenger!" When I spotted what had caused the problem I stopped dealing with Rayment refs, told you about it and counted on your undeniable conscientiousness to fix it. However you did not acknowledge that I had a point, and a well meaning intervention by kind and sensible Crooked Cottage threatened to distract from the point at issue.

For one who makes a big deal of "tongue in cheek", surely you recognise a bit of "stage indignation" :)

BrownHairedGirl wrote -

"I was a little bemused by your note on my talk about being "a little bit more careful in future", since I encounter several times a week articles where you have inferred facts from sources which don't state them, and got them wrong. The latest was one I encountered today: Sir Edmund Buckley, 1st Baronet, which you created and left with the wrong dates for his parliamentary career, the wrong link to the Hansard site, and missing a bundle of categories."

Answers by motmit

Be not bemused. If you think a minor slip in the article editing process is the equivalent to making a change to template that adversely affects hundreds if not thousands of articles, then you fully justify my advice that you should be a little bit more careful in future.

I can assure you - as would any good IT consultant - that if you make what is in effect a program change that may have wide reaching and unintended effects, then you do need to be careful. Did you conduct thorough testing of all the options? Did you get other people inolved to check it out? That is what I mean by "being more careful". It actually gets worse - because almost immediately after you made the change, you disappeared off the system for several weeks. That is certainly not being careful. A good idea at least would have to have been to mention it to those most likely to be affected so they could check out for problems. You made the change on 11 August, you disappeared on 15 August, and on 17 August I found an incorrect reference for the first time. Apart from a brief reappearance you gave us all a Wikibreak until November. Be not bemused. I have no hesitation in repeating my request to you to "Be a little bit more careful in future".

And now you come here again and you denigrate my contributions to Misplaced Pages - again with "inferred facts" to make another sweeping statement and invalid generalisation. Sure you found a couple of slips, but "it's all part of the process of improvement". As all my creations are on my watchlist, I know when you improve them, and I know your "several times a week" is another atrocious exaggeration (but I won't trawl for diffs this time). I shall be happy to leave the Hansard links for you to deal with in future.

BrownHairedGirl wrote -

"The solution, of course, is to WP:SOFIXIT. Trawling through your contribs for unrelated diffs wouldn't have improved anything for readers."

Answer from motmit

Are you seriously suggesting that it would have been a good idea for me to have tried to fix a template I knew nothing about when I am no expert on Template grammar? I am more careful than that. I have no idea what on earth you are trying to say with the second sentence.

Motmit (talk) 08:48, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Update - four weeks since BrownHairedGirl alleged "I encounter several times a week articles where you have inferred facts from sources which don't state them, and got them wrong...etc" and in that time she has made just one correction - a date of 1852 instead of 1853. I wonder if she will withdraw this "bad faith" statement. Motmit (talk) 17:54, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

List of MPs not excluded from the English parliament in 1648 (2)

I am trying to improve the article on Edmund Dunch (Roundhead). There is a sentence in it that states "After the capture of Charles I, Dunch survived Pride’s Purge of MPs who did not want Charles tried and was part of the Rump Parliament ..." but the current sources in the biography do not support the statement. I can see from the article List of MPs not excluded from the English parliament in 1648 supports the fact he was not excluded, but it is unclear to me from the list of general references which source supports this. Please could you point me to the correct volume and chapter in the external sources? -- PBS (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I spotted his article when dealing with his son but decided to give it a miss for the time being given the number of splats. I am finding it very difficult to establish who were Rumpers and I have tended to rely on the Constituency articles which seem fairly confident in most cases. The Wallingford article gives a date range for Dunch ending in 1653. For others I have assumed they remained unless there is evidence to the contrary. As I create the MPs articles I often find such evidence - death is fairly convincing. I am currently working on the Shorters, and it will take me a while to get onto the Rumpers. Important though because they came up again like a bad curry. By the way, I still haven't forgiven you for sending me that wretched Meercat, and I am tempted to send you in reply Mother Dunch's Buttocks. Regards and HNY. Motmit (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Nicholas Weston

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It is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article. The article will be reviewed to determine if there are any copyright issues.

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Thank you for brightening up a dull January day with this hilarious joke. Motmit (talk) 19:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Charles Worsley

With this edit, you have inadvertently caused a problem with the sourcing. When you split the paragraph in half the Lee citation has remained in the second paragraph and no longer covers the information in what is now the first paragraph. In future if you split such a paragraph please make sure that the reference is duplicated if it covers information in both paragraphs. -- PBS (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Thomas Gewen

Momit wrote:

Hi Vernon I am not sure why you siezed on the Thomas Gewen article, but it is always satisfying, after one has created an article, to see it taken up and developed so thoughtfully. Makes work on obscure 17th century politicians seem all the more worthwhile.

I am interested in 17th C Quakers in Cornwall and their persecutors. I also found Gewen interesting as one of the coalition that brought Charles Stuart in. Coalitions are rather relevant at the moment in the UK. If you like obscurities, what about Horace Pym or Samuel Middleton Fox. More restful than editing anything to do with Israel! BTW, what's you reference for "He was also a sturdy Presbyterian and was considered one of the main persecutors of Quakers."Vernon White 23:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the ref, I am afraid that as a result of all your editing, you inadvertently disconnected the sentence in quotes from the reference (Robbins). I have no issue with that and have restored it without complaint. Whereas the previous visitor to this page has taken all the trouble to come on to my talk page specfically to complain and take a high-handed attitude because for once I put in a paragraph break which split a reference. Shall I leave a snottogram on PBS's page to tell him/her to be more carefl about splling Cromwell in future? :) Funny old world! Motmit (talk) 10:19, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry that you seem to have quarrels with several other editors, including Brown haired girl, who is someone who has improved many of my articles significantly. Your discourse seems to be deliberately offensive. Are you not aware of this? Vernon White 15:11, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

When I visit other people's talk pages, it is to offer support and encouragement. I have given you nothing but appreciation on your talk page and I have given PBS nothing but appreciation on his talk page. I think this helps to oil the wheels and I am sorry that you think I am being deliberately offensive. PBS sent me a Meercat video in reply to my note of appreciation and we also had an amusing discussion about the Rump parliament and that was the background to my comment about Mother Dunch's buttocks. So I don't know why he complained about the paragraph break as it only occurred as I began work improving the article he refered to. As for the other person, I was accused of incivility and I explained that I was simply expressing annoyance at finding an inappropriate reference. Do you think the edit summaries I listed were deliberately offensive given the circumstances? Do you? You can go back through all my edit summaries and I don't think you will find any evidence of personal incivility - a few bad puns perhaps - but no obscenities, no personal attacks, no screaming with exclamation marks. Now it was only when I investigated that I found out that my accuser was the person who had created the problem by changing a template. Now not taking care with a template is an order of magnitude greater than mistyping the date in an article because its effects are not obvious and it can affect literally thousands of articles. I am sure you will agree with that. My reaction, if I was told that I had done something like that, would be to acknowledge the mistake, apologise profusely and set about putting it right. But I received no response apart from an offer from another kind person to work on it. Eventually I discovered that the person concerned had tackled the business and so I drew a line under the matter with a gracious note of appreciation - or do you read that as being deliberately offensive? There was no need for the person concerned to come back on the attack. There is no doubt that this editor puts in a tremendous amount of work - even spending hours over the festive season. I always appreciate those who add value to my articles (as I did with you) and when this editor even used one of my creations for a DYK again I visited the user's talk page to give appreciation for this. (By the way I hope you don't consider my avoidance of gender specific language as deliberately offensive). Anyway, I invite you to compare my edit history and my use of talk pages with the other person's and see where the instigation of disputes comes from. I am baffled as to why people seem to have got grumpy with me in the last few days - perhaps it is the time of year since as you will see apart from some silly bots no one else has anything but praise and appreciation. I am not aware that anything I have said in this response can be classed as deliberately offensive but I invite you to tell me if you think so. Meanwhile I would prefer to get on with the positive and constructive business of creating articles on members of parliament of around the time of the civil war. Regards Motmit (talk)

Talkback

DYK nomination of Thomas Witherings

Hello! Your submission of Thomas Witherings at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Wasted Time R (talk) 14:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Thomas Danby (MP)

As his son (the mayor) was also an MP, this doesn't seem an ideal disambiguation, though I'm not sure what would be better here! Perhaps we need to resort to using dates? PamD (talk) 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Pam - neither mayor nor MP is ideal here. My main issue was that as I understand it "Sir" should not be used except for Barts and I felt uncomfortable including it in a new article. I also found he was being linked into another article in the persona of an 18th century Sir T D so there was already a dambig problem. I think this may be an iterative process. I am throwing up so many replicated MPs names that it is the devils own job to sort them out. One option is that as MPs in the Long parliament break down into Royalists and Parliamentarians, we could make him a Royalist. Dates are a bit of a last resort, but I am coming round to a preference for (died ....) only rather that the full range. It is only 4 digits and avoids a dash character that doesnt exist on my keyboard. If you can bear with a few placeholders, I am sure we can work it out in the end. Regards Motmit (talk) 23:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

Somehow the cut and paste on my nice new boxes for C17 parliaments got all screwed up (probably user error - late - tired from looking after preggers wife) so thanks for sorting out the errors. Tattooed Librarian (talk) 00:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

No probs - all fixed now. Keep an eye on my library as I will update it from time to time, but there is a more copious reference source developed by PBS - Regards Motmit (talk) 21:47, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Barnstar

Barnstar

		The Disambiguator's Barnstar
		Thanks for all your hard work on disambiguation pages and your support for my ediing, it's appreciated. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks - Motmit (talk) 21:47, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		I have just expanded Edmund Prideaux (by using DNB text) I linked that text to Thomas Witherings I think you did a first class job in assembling the information and writing the article, well done. -- PBS (talk) 06:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for the appreciation and for improving the article.Motmit (talk) 21:54, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Samuel Browne (judge)

If you could wait a few days I am in the process of developing an article on him (That is why I've put a stub in place). But if you want to do some further development you will find all the details you need at User:Philip Baird Shearer/sandbox#Samuel Browne (judge). -- PBS (talk) 02:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I was not fully awake yesterday I was in a transit lounge after a very long flight. OK the man I am writing a biography on was MP for Clifton-Dartmouth-Hardness

The two biographies I have been using do not include him as an MP in 1660, but I have found conformation in the ODNB on the biography of this man:

He was eventually elected MP for Bedford in 1659, and for Bedfordshire in 1660. He was knighted by Charles II and rewarded for his loyalty during the interregnum with reinstatement as serjeant-at-law in Trinity term 1660 and with elevation to the bench of common pleas in the Michaelmas term following. He served as justice in common pleas until his death in London on 11 April 1668. He was buried at Arlesey in Bedfordshire, where he lived.

I'll include it in my biography article on him. Presumably the 1659 election was for a vacant seat in the reconstituted Long Parliament while the 1660 was to the Convention Parliament (1660). -- PBS (talk) 08:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The extended article is now in place. Improvements appreciated. -- PBS (talk) 13:17, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Samuel Browne (MP for Rutland) another Convention Parliament MP and nephew of Samuel Browne (judge) -- PBS (talk) 17:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Sir Francis Drake, 2nd Baronet

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Ridiculous Bot! Have a good laugh anyone who checks this message. Motmit (talk) 14:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

1604 list

That's a fine list to have around - thanks. I see in the ODNB that Edward Forsett is reckoned to have come in c.1606 for Wells, replacing Sir Robert Stapleton. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Charles - I was glad to see you taking advantage of the list. I have added your comment in the notes. The constituency article doesnt include Forsett, but once the Stapleton article is done we might get confirmation. The list is very much WIP for the present, so any extra info is always useful. Regards Motmit (talk) 13:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Nickalls

If you are correct on parentage of Patteson Womersley Nickalls, then the article on Emily Quihampton is incorrect. I will see if I can find an obituary to confirm one or the other. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Yup, you are correct and the other editor is wrong. I will make the change and start and entry for Sir Patteson Nickalls. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks -Added a bit more from the love of the chase rather than any real interest in the subjects. Wonder if Pat is Tom's brother. Motmit (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Richard Cave

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Politician relinks

Hi Motmit. I've just seen that you relinked a few politicians within Callington (UK Parliament constituency). I know that you were trying to follow the guideline that states that we should avoid dashes etc where appropriate, but most of the new links directed to titles that no other page linked to, whereas the old ones had several incoming links. An example of Samuel Rolle, where the original link had 8 incoming links but your new link had only 1 incoming link. So it might be worth checking the "What links here" for the original link to see if it actually needs changing - I'm just concerned that we'll end up with multiple title locations for a single person, which editors might try to create multiple times (and then need merging later on). I've restored all but one of the links because of this. Hope you don't mind, cheers, Zangar (talk) 12:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

John Arundell

Hi Motmit - do you think John Arundell (Royalist) is the same John Arundell that needs disambiguating in Truro (UK Parliament constituency), for the 1666 and 1685 parliaments? Cheers, Zangar (talk) 12:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, good spot - why I didn't go to Rayment I don't know! I think I'll keep to minor edits today if my brain isn't engaging! Cheers, Zangar (talk) 13:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Well done for sorting that out! There's another spurious John Arundell now - John Arundell (1474-1545), father of Mary Arundell (courtier) (originally her father was listed as the 14 century John), not too sure if he's notable enough for his own article though (I haven't found anything on him). The Arundell family are very confusing! Zangar (talk) 11:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Eastbourne GAR

Wonder whether you've seen the note on the Eastbourne page about the GAR. It would be a pity to lose the GA ... I see there are only 116 GAs in the 'Places' category. I'm trying to make a few changes. Mikeo1938 (talk) 21:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I noticed what was going on. I though it was a bit of a kick in the teeth for someone to come in from left-field and tear up a good article like that. Motmit (talk) 15:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:English landowners

Please help populate this category, one also exists for Scottish landowners.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Use the new category English landowners please. Why haven't you added it to John Southby?♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:58, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I have little time for categories. If you want to set them up, feel free. If you want to populate them feel free. But please don't address me like that. Motmit (talk) 07:05, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

For the record one of the reasons I have little time for categories is because of the antics of these people! Motmit (talk) 07:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

John Suckling (poet)

Peaceray (talk) 06:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Former pupils of Foo

FYI. This CfD and this one have re-opened the topic. Ephebi (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2011 (UTC)