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Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images closed

Original announcement

Mlpearc closed the Muhammad case at 04:33 and John Vandenberg voted at 04:41-05:34. JV's vote changed the result of remedy 6.1 (which actually should not have passed), so it's probably important to unwind this.—Kww(talk) 16:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Mlpearc started to close at 04:33, but had not completed it at 05:57 when I came online to help, per his request by email. Mlpearc having begun to post the final decision on the case page, our attention was drawn to a number discrepancies, due in part to votes coming in from John Vandenberg before the case was officially closed by the clerk, which could at the earliest be considered at 06:29 but as far as I am concerned, at 08:34, when I finally ensured that the final decision posted corresponded to the Arbitrators' votes. Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 17:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• This was AGK's first case and I think he did a good job. Mathsci (talk) 21:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
  • One would think so, given that you will likely not have to deal with me again in the future, nor with Ludwigs2 in the next 12 months. Absolutely fantastic editor retention work. Hans Adler 22:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
    • If that is indeed the case, Wikpedia is very much better off. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:41, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Agreed, Mathsci. It was my first arb case too, and I think AGK did a fine job keeping it focused and moving forward. Hopefully the core issue itself can now move forward, whatever forward may be. Resolute 23:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Editors who are highly invested emotionally in a case lashing out at ArbCom when they disagree with the outcome is probably nothing new. I agree that the case was moderately successful in its outcome, and surely above average in completion speed, offset slightly by minor infelicities in wording. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:35, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
    • What does 'infelicities' mean? 140.247.141.165 (talk) 19:15, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Have you heard of google? → ROUX ₪ 19:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
        • How does that answer the question of "What does 'infelicities' mean"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.141.165 (talk) 23:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Some people here a simply useless - sorry about that- Let me help.Moxy (talk) 02:54, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

1. . the state or quality of being unhappy or unfortunate
2. . an instance of bad luck or mischance; misfortune
3. . something, esp a remark or expression, that is inapt or inappropriate

• Are arbitrators and everyone else aware of Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/11_February_2012/Muhammad-images? --JN466 04:36, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I have not commented on that initiative yet because it's not clear what its goals are. If the goal is to draft the neutral RfC demanded in the ArbCom decision, then I support some uninvolved oversight. On the other hand, if the mediation is intended to be a solution for the images problem produced by a narrow circle of editors (named in the mediation request) with no outside input, then it is contrary to the ArbCom decision. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:31, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm pretty sure the intentions of the mediator at MedCab is to help the parties draft the RFC. Steven Zhang 10:42, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
      • I do feel kind of abandoned here. During the arbitration case, it was said that those who were named parties in the case should take a backseat. In fact, parts of the mediation page look like a re-hash of the arbitration workshop, with exactly the same people involved. --JN466 14:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
        • I've pretty much bowed out, but it does make sense for these parties to be in mediation over how best to formulate an RFC question. As to the RFC itself, I would suggest that any of us who were involved in the arb case leave our opinion and walk away. Resolute 18:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Betacommand 3 closed

Original announcement

• A point - one which I would have noted had I been active when the case commenced or in the early days; the community had indeed resolved the Betacommand issue, where BC was indefinitely blocked following repeated violations of the community agreed restriction. BC unsuccessfully appealed the indef block several times, and ultimately appealed to the ArbCom to lift the sanctions. This the ArbCom did. Only after the subsequent year long probation ended did BC again start exhibiting those behaviours that had lead to the earlier community derived indef/ban. Those who do not (care to) remember their history are indeed compelled to repeat it. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  • It shows that you still address him as 'BC' .. And how does the presented evidence show that Δ was now so badly breaking the restrictions (seen in perspective of the total) that a ban would be the only solution. Over the last half a year, 99.95% of the time within speed restrictions (and I think >99.9% of the time overall), no excessive breaking of pages (an occasional error, nothing in comparison to the total), way within the speed restriction on average (0.5 edits per 10 minutes), one recorded case of incivility, not a single violation of the NFCC ban. The only way that you would have come to a different conclusion is perfection - something that no human would ever achieve, which would have to mean that Δ is editing like a bot - which would be a reason to ban him as well. I remember the history, but I also look at the now, and put it in perspective - you remember the history, and ask for perfection, an utopia that will never be achieved, and everything lacking that utopia is worth a ban. And next time? After this Δ is not allowed to make one single error, because, apparently, 99.95% is not good enough. --Dirk Beetstra 13:48, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    • 25% is good enough for ArbCom clerks though. Look how many blocks it took clerk Guerillero to finally get the Δ block right: . This isn't isolated either: . --Hammersoft (talk) 18:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
      • LOL. By that standard I should have been banned a long time ago because I almost always go back and tweak my prior edits. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
        • Well, that's the standard Δ is held to. Mind you, I'm not suggesting Guerillero did anything wrong. Nobody is expected to be perfect. Well, almost nobody. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
          • Poor, poor innocent Betacommand, struck down in his prime by the wrath of Arbcom. /sarcasm If he had more self-control then this wouldn't have happened. Jtrainor (talk) 21:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
            • Good to see that your sarcasm is also pulling comments out of perspective, but: 'more self control', Jtrainor? 99.95% within speed limits, no violations of NFCC, one case of incivility in total, etc. More self-control, that is indeed exactly what we are talking about here, the self control you expect would make him perfect, or a bot! We now we start banning editors who are not perfect. --Dirk Beetstra 06:32, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Despite Dirk and Hammersoft's managing to obfuscate the issue during the arb case through wikilawyering, Δ's restriction

"Before undertaking any pattern of edits (such as a single task carried out on multiple pages) that affects more than 25 pages, Betacommand must propose the task on WP:VPR and wait at least 24 hours for community discussion. If there is any opposition, Betacommand must wait for a consensus supporting the request before he may begin."

actually meant something. For example, I wasn't able to find a VPR discussion for this group of 42 edits from December 26, 2011, which were obviously a single task, so it looks like a restriction vio much more recent than October (in fact it happened while the arb case was in progress, talk about "mooning the jury"). You can see how it messed up an archived discussion page causing disruption. As another apparently-wrong edit in that group, this changed a picture from a logo (old article revision) to a mountain range (revision after edit), reverted next day by another editor. That is an error Δ should have noticed if he was actually reviewing his edits. The rewrites in general look unnecessary per WP:NOTBROKEN since the filenames that I tried seem to have working redirects. There was another group without working redirects (those with percent signs, rewritten to work around a software bug) but a technical move like that should also have had prior discussion, on-wiki or in the bug tracker.

Looking at the VPR archive it seems to me that Hammersoft and Dirk were on completely the wrong track, and probably worsened the situation. If they had any influence on Δ's editing, it IMHO would have been better for them to urge Δ to edit fully manually for a while, instead of looking for vehicles for him to use more automation. I hope Δ and his supporters can consider that approach if and when Δ wants to appeal the ban. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 04:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Awful, isn't it. All those errors, all those bad things. Yes, 67.117.145.9, you have also been very helpful in ripping everything out of perspective. Whole 30 violations of the speed limit, yeah, that is indeed 'often' if you don't see that in the perspective of the > 99.9% of the time in the speed limit. And you managed to find a whole set of errors, well 'The rewrites in general look unnecessary per WP:NOTBROKEN since the filenames that I tried seem to have working redirects' (my emphasis) certainly puts in perspective why you think that banning is certainly the right punishment for such excessive ignorance. --Dirk Beetstra 06:32, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Just my opinion here, but the Betacommand/Delta situation has been one of those very divisive issues which has, over the years, rubbed the community raw. May I suggest that re-fighting the issue yet again in this forum is extremely counter-productive and unlikely to change anything. ArbCom has made its decision, for better or worse, and Beta/Delta will have the opportunity to ask to be reinstated in a year. Nothing that is said here, by either side, is going to change that at this time, so why not, as the saying goes, just let it go? Surely everyone is ready for a one year respite. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:01, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

'ArbCom has made its decision, for better or worse' - so that is it, Beyond My Ken? Whatever the ArbCom decides, that is what we all have to abide by, even if the ArbCom would make the wrong decision? Just ignore and move on? If an admin would make a wrong block, the whole community complains, if a bureaucrat would close an RfA against any odds and promotes the editor to Admin, the whole community would complain, but if the arbs make a wrong decision, no-one should complain, because that is deemed counter-productive, it is unlikely to change anything, and we should just move on. That is the whole problem, Beyond My Ken, there is no scrutiny over ArbCom, their will is law, and they can do whatever they want. --Dirk Beetstra 06:32, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

There always has to be someone who makes the final decision. If you disagree, don't vote for the current arbitrators if and when they stand for office again, or vote for arbitrator-candidates who share your philosophy, or stand for the position yourself. This is what we call "civil society". Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but "civil society" also allows for the opposition to say their word. If I believe that the last word was the wrong last word, then that should be said, we do not stop the discussion because it is futile, or because it is counter productive. I'm sure that if a bureaucrat decides to just promote someone to admin, then you are also going to say 'there always has to be someone who makes the final decision', so be it, that person now is an admin. And voting for the next ArbCom is not going to change this situation, this ArbCom is responsible for this decision. --Dirk Beetstra 07:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Good decision by ArbCom in my view. No-one can deny that Betacommand/Delta wasn't given lots of chances, so the end result of this case was always fairly predictable. Nick-D (talk) 07:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The result was indeed predictable, Δ actually did that prediction already before the case. --Dirk Beetstra 07:33, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

@Dirk: The ethos of Misplaced Pages is such that you get to keep complaining until such time as you cross over the line and someone decides that you're disruptive and blocks you, but please allow me to appeal for a moment to your better insticts. I could well be wrong, but my understanding is that we are all of us here to help to create an encycylopedia for the masses, a repository of information available to anybody who wishes to access it, without fee or hinderance. If that's that case, I ask you to reconsider your continued proselytizing on Betacommand/Delta's behalf, since I do not see where it benefits the enyclopedia to do so. We, collectively, have a job to do here, please try to look beyond the cause you have taken up to the utlimate purpose behind it. I'm hoping you will see that the larger cause, which we all share, is so much more important than what happens to one editor that the continued focus on that editor is, essentially, counter-productive to the project. Instead, le us al work together to improve the project in ways that we can all agree on, and a year from now, Betacommand/Delta can join us in that work. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is what we are doing, and that is what aim I do, and actually, that is also the aim of Δ (despite all the disbelieve to that effect). We have our fair processes behind that, trying to keep it streamlined. I am also appealing to you. You say 'until such a time as you cross over the line ...'. Do realise, that also an ArbCom at a certain point can cross over such a line. If the processes behind the system become such that they are not a benefit to the encyclopedia anymore, because assumptive evidence presented as if it was fact is making the decisions, and not objective decisions, then that also hinders Misplaced Pages in its progress. You say it is 'just' Δ, no, it is the whole community. Now, I had the sincere hope that ArbCom would stand above that community, would stand above such subjectivity, would stand above the use assumptive evidence, would put evidence in a full perspective - but if even ArbCom is not able to do that, then I do believe that ArbCom itself is starting to hinder progress on Misplaced Pages. And I have been arguing such things for a long time, the sweeping principles and FoF's in previous cases sometimes have more effect on editors who do their best to protect a certain corner of Misplaced Pages, and when assumptive evidence and pulling information out of perspective is part of an ArbCom decision making process, then that will also be adopted, and probably stronger, by the community. It is a slippery slope, it has always been, and ArbCom sliding down it with the community.

Anywayz Ken, it is not the case that if ArbCom has decided, that no-one is allowed to complain about that decision anymore. I stand by the point that ArbCom here has failed to examine the evidence in a proper perspective and has lost objectivity, and that the applied restriction is first of all not a solution to the problem, it is incomplete (due to the lack of perspective), and the severity of the punishment is in no relation to the evidence. --Dirk Beetstra 09:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Just as a note, if this is the way the community thinks and behaves, and if this is the way ArbCom is 'solving' things - then no, Δ will not be able to join us back in a year. The only way that Δ can come back is to guarantee perfection, and to upkeep perfection, because if 99.95% is not good enough, then 99.995% is not good enough either .. one single mistake, one slip, and he is out again. Due to this very decision, Δ is out forever. As you say "the Betacommand/Delta situation has been one of those very divisive issues which has, over the years, rubbed the community raw" - that is indeed the perspective of the community on this, and the community will rip everything out of perspective, and the ArbCom is just taking it - one wrong edit in 10, or one wrong edit in 10 million - it is one wrong edit, and hence the ArbCom will ban again because the assumptive evidence and ripping things out of perspective is so prevalent in the community, that this is the result, and the community will just keep that institution alive. And I hope you realise that with such an institution standing, we are not getting much further in building an encyclopedia. --Dirk Beetstra 09:13, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

(e/c) Ken, maybe you're right; I wrote the above because Dirk and HS had been complaining on the proposed decision talkpage that not enough recent disruption had been shown, so I documented an incident from December. I was going to write it up in the case itself, but the case closed while I was away for the weekend. However, I don't share your optimism that we'll have a year's respite from this sort of drama; that IMHO personalizes the issue too much about Δ. There's tons more incidents of disruptive high-speed editing by others (including one on ANI right now), and the editing community and arbcom have been (again IMHO) terrible at dealing with them. I hope a sharper approach to such problems can be developed in the not too distant future. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 07:24, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive high-speed editing .. Yes, Δ is a clear example of that, 0.5 edits per 10 minute period .. --Dirk Beetstra 07:33, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

FYI, WP:AN contains an example of how others think that the others also think that 'There was as well a lot of assumptive evidence being presented as if it was fact which can be typical on Misplaced Pages' (in another case). It is unfortunate to see that ArbCom also uses assumptive evidence which is presented as if it was fact. How did you say it again, 67.117.145.9, oh, 'The rewrites in general look unnecessary per WP:NOTBROKEN since the filenames that I tried seem to have working redirects'. But, as Beyond My Ken suggests, it does not matter, we should all move on, so these practices can continue. --Dirk Beetstra 07:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It's actually worse than that. Had ArbCom merely come to an incorrect or too extreme decision, then that is a common outcome of all decision making processes about complex human behaviour. But in this case they seem to have behaved in a manner verging on ultra-vires, and acting so as to be seen to act. In addition to the options they were unable to agree on, they could have returned "no consensus" or asked for more information. Rich Farmbrough, 13:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC).

Just to ask for clarification, what does "0.5 edits per 10 minute period" actually mean? That, all throughout his edit history (from the first edit until he was banned), Delta made 0.5 edits per 10 minutes? --Conti|✉ 15:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I must confess that I made a rather rough count (20,000 edits in a year), but here we go for a bit more precise - it is difficult to get it really precise, one would have to do with finding the moment the speed restriction ban was enacted, minus times that Delta was blocked, etc. Lets do it for the whole period of editing:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&list=allusers&aufrom=Δ&aulimit=1&auprop=editcount&format=xml
• This says '35154' edits on this account.
• Delta has a first edit at 12 July 2010, last edit at 6 Februari 2012 - that is 19+31+30+31+30+31+365+31+6 days of editing, is 574 days
• Roughly, &Delta has been blocked for 25 days in that period, making it 549 days.
• That * 24 = 13176 hours, that time 6 periods of 10 minutes per hour = 79056 periods of 10 minutes.
• I'll ignore the edits in the 30 10-minute blocks where the edit speed was higher, it will bring the average, obviously, further down.
• Lets say that Δ is active for 2/3rds of a day .. that means that he is active for 52704 periods of 10 minutes
• 35154 / 52704 is 0.67 edit per 10 minute period.

Looking at it in a different way:

• 30 10-minute blocks of violation is 30 / 52704 is a fraction of 0.000569 ..

In other words, 99.943% of the time Δ was not violating the speed restrictions.

Yet another way of looking at this:

• Δ made 30 speed violations.
• We have 52704 blocks of 10 minutes .. in other words, 1 block of 10 minutes in 1756.8 blocks of 10 minutes is a speed violation.

IIRC, the ban was enacted later, and the editing stopped earlier, so this figure would need to be adapted. One would have to substract the edits done before the ban was enacted, etc. But, lets set up another figure:

• To be continuously skirting the edit ban, Delta would need to be editing continuously at 39 edits per 10 minutes.
• To make 35154 edits at 39 edits per 10 minutes, one needs 906 periods of 10 minutes
• Say, Delta is active for 2/3 of a day: 906 / 6 / 16 is 9.38 days of editing. However, &Delta edited 549 days.

To be continuously skirting the speed restriction ban (a vague term for which I have not yet seen any proper definition, it must be someone who has a cruise control on a highway who sets it to 79 Mph where they is allowed to drive 80 Mph across a continent I guess), and which one then might see as a violation if that was indeed continuously performed (I don't know how), Delta would have to perform those edits in less than 10 days (and still having time to sleep for 8 hours a day).

I am not saying that it is good that Δ actually went over the speed limit, that certainly should not have happened. I'm not saying that &Delta was never over the speed limit, that is obviously clear. But all other terms that are used to describe that ~30 violations (see evidence by the IP): 'often', 'continuously skirting' are massive exaggerations. --Dirk Beetstra 16:07, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

There have been no speed violations since September. It were 3 in September (I'll take the word of the IP for that) - So since the 1st of September we have 3 violations in 5 months, or 180 days or 19440 blocks of 10 minutes. That is one violation every 6480 blocks (and it was 1757 overall). If we go since the 1st of October, we have 0 violations in 12960 blocks. I'll leave the rest of the math to you guys, but think in terms of 'wikt:improvement'. --Dirk Beetstra 16:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I just realised that I did not take into account the deleted user contributions of Δ, which amount to a bit less than 1000. So the total becomes 36150 edits or 0.69 edit per 10 minute block over the total time, and for the 39 edits per minute limit it becomes 9.66 days. Sorry for the confusion. --Dirk Beetstra 16:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Just one more figure .. if Δ would have skirted the speed restriction continuously at 39 edits per 10 minutes, he would have performed a whopping 2 million edits in those 550 days, Δ just did only a fraction, 0.00177, of that amount. --Dirk Beetstra 16:39, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

So if I do nothing for 4 years, then write a script that deletes all fair use rationales from all of Misplaced Pages within one second, that would be acceptable, since "on average" I was only making one edit every five minutes? TotientDragooned (talk) 17:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Delta was not doing nothing for 4 years, but I see your point. One would here have to calculate in how many 10 minute blocks Δ was active, and then calculate these numbers. But you are not going to convince me that Delta was even getting remotely close to having his edits in concentrated in a period of 9000 minutes. --Dirk Beetstra 17:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I was going to make a similar point as TotientDragooned. It seems odd to point out the 99% within-speed-limit rate and the argument that, on average, the edits were within the speed limit. I keep imagining someone who repeatedly gets over the speed limit on the road and tries to argue with the officer that, on average, he did not violate the speed limit at all. :) The entire point of a restriction is that you don't violate it, not that you don't violate it most of the time. --Conti|✉ 18:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, like the last 4 months. No evidence presented in the case of any violations, it does show that Δ can follow the restrictions. You are not looking for improvements, you are looking for perfection. So much for perspective. --Dirk Beetstra 18:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

This was Betacommand 3, the third arbitration for this user. This user had their own department at AN/I. There had been five years of blocks, bans, and other actions. At some point, somebody had to say "enough". ArbCom did. Can we do something else now? --John Nagle (talk) 18:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Why Mr. Doe, you realize this is the third time you've appeared before this court? I think you're guilty just on that alone. Afterall, we wouldn't be here if you didn't have at least some guilt in being arrested for a third time, right? I don't see that we have any choice. I'm going to send you to prison, on summary judgment, even though your record over the last six months has been rather remarkably clean. Since we found evidence from nine months ago of you violating civility, that's plenty enough to find against you. Thank you, good day, sorry no chance of appeal. Guards? Please take him away." --The Good and Righteous Judge (talk) 19:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I am doing something else as well. --Dirk Beetstra 18:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Dirk is apparently unwilling to accept my appeal to drop this and move on, and wishes to re-litigate the case on this page. Others can help, however, in choosing not to respond to him, which I suggest is the best course of action. I'm going to take this page off my watchlist for a while. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• It is certainly within your purview to remove this page from your watchlist. However, Dirk is rather far from alone in feeling that there was a miscarriage performed in this case. Debate, as I recall, is permitted. Until such time as ArbCom shuts down this board to outside input, editing it is permitted. If you believe a stance in opposition to ArbCom on this case is without merit, there should be no fear whatsoever about what is posted here, I should think. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Dirk is apparently suffering from hearing loss. He seems to think Δ's 40 edit/10 minute restriction was the only one that meant anything. There was also the requirement for Δ's to carefully review all his automated edits before saving them, and the requirement to get tasks preapproved at VPR. I showed above how Δ ignored both of those as recently as late December. The NOTBROKEN thing, if there is any unclarity to it, is another example of something that should have been discussed at VPR before the fact. The idea of the VPR requirement was that we had already spent too much time on post-facto examination of Δ's broken operations and that future ones had to be discussed before they happened, not after. And most WP editors can, in fact, guarantee zero errors from their unapproved bot edits, because they don't run any bots at all, much less unapproved ones. I don't see why Δ should get special favorable treatment in that regard. Nobody would have gotten upset (at the level of calling for a site ban) if Δ's SPI bot had made occasional errors, since that was an approved bot, so responsibility for it falls partly on BAG and the surrounding community for having approved it.

Dirk: it looks to me like 2643 of Δ's 34230 edits (about 7.7%) took place within 10-minute stretches of editing that contained more than 40 edits. About 18% were in 10-minute stretches with more than 30 edits, 32% with more than 20 edits, and 54% with more than 10 edits, so we're clearly looking at some pretty fast editing throughout. FWIW, although I supported a further speed restriction instead of a total ban, I think the outcome of this arb case is perfectly justified and I don't have any problems with it. Per BMK, I'm also going to try to bow out of this. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• And now the anon-IP is offering up personal insults to Dirk. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• It's wonderful what you can do with math, dear IP. If I use your numbers, it is still a small amount of the time that Δ was over the speed limit. And for the last 5 months, that figure will be smaller, and for the last 4 months, it is nihil.
• And no, I was not ignoring the other restrictions. I've noticed the one case of incivility, I have noticed the 'errors' in the edits (which still does not mean that the edits were not reviewed .. that is assumptive evidence). And I don't think that I've said that there were not other violations, I did say that there should be perspective. --Dirk Beetstra 04:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Since everyone is offering opinions here.. IMO - ArbCom had no choice here. If the sanctions had been ArbCom applied - they might have had some room to assume good faith on Δ's part.. but given that the sanctions were community applied - any other decision by them in this case would have undermined the whole concept of community applied sanctions. The moral of the story is: If you find yourself on the wrong end of a community sanction - don't agree to any condition you aren't 100% certain you can meet. Sorry Beta, even you knew what the outcome of this case would be before it started.. I hope you can find some other WMF project that appreciates your skills and drive. --Versageek 23:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• That's what I realize as well, and what I have being saying to Δ a long time ago. And I think that Δ realised that a long time ago as well. Still not sure if it was the only choice that the ArbCom had. --Dirk Beetstra 04:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm possibly just raving here, but given the abrupt turn that voting took, I think something horrible happened during private negotiations between Δ and ArbCom members. The BAG-tasks-only restriction had most support and then suddenly one ArbCom member plainly accused Δ of lying on IRC (this was said on the proposed decision talk page). Something like that was probably the last straw, particularly because Δ blacked his user page while the outcome on the ArbCom page still looked like a BAG-tasks-only restriction would pass. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

In reading Dirk's arguments against the BC decision, I confess to being puzzled as to how his statistical analysis is relevant. Dirk, if I shoot a gun into the air 100 times, and only kill someone one time, then my actions have been 99% harmless. Nevertheless, I did kill someone. Being mostly correct isn't the point, especially if its only "most" of an enormous number of actions (as it is in this case). Nathan 20:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this thing. Yes, if someone would make 1000 articles, and 10 are, knowingly, CopyVios, then that is indeed reason to ban someone. If the editor is making 1000's of blocks, and she once, knowingly, blocks an admin, that may indeed be reason to desysop her. Here, the 10 (actually, less than 10) cases are at the very worst cases where a page 'breaks' (and that, mostly while the page was 'broken' beforehand). Your comparison would hold if the errors made were massive errors. But to go with your comparison: if I shoot a gun into the air 100 times, and only break a twig of a tree once, then my actions have been 99% harmless. Nevertheless, you will be convicted to death row. - And why, ArbCom either suffers of loss of perspective - breaking one single twig is an inherently bad thing (tm) - or from using assumptive evidence - the bullet that broke the twig did not kill anyone, but we are sure that is going to happen - or from loss of objectivity - it is Δ, no matter whether he does not break a twig (no violations in evidence in the last 4 months), whether he breaks one twig, or copies copyvio, it does not matter, it is Δ, we first ban, and then we see whether we can find something to ban him for (though it does not matter, if we don't find anything we will just ban him). --Dirk Beetstra 04:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

BC 3 Section Break

• • • If that's the case, then ArbCom is possibly acting outside of its boundaries. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Admissibility_of_evidence asks for prior consent of the committee and exceptional circumstances. I see no discussion by arbitrators anywhere on the admissibility of this lying evidence, or its relevance to this case, much less any indication of "prior consent". In fact, I find Jclemens noting that ArbCom did not give prior consent to its inclusion , yet it influenced his decision. In effect, unless Δ apologized for supposedly lying to him on IRC, he wasn't going to change his mind on the case. Yet, the evidence was not specifically permitted to be included by ArbCom. Whoops. This wouldn't be the first time ArbCom has gone off the reservation . All the more reason that the basis of this case is highly questionable. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Hammersoft, how does our decision regarding Racepacket relate to Betacommand, and why do you criticise that decision? (I've no idea what is the meaning of gone off the reservation, and this sort of generalised ArbCom-bashing is probably why few arbitrators are willing to participate in discussions on this page.) AGK 14:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
        • I see nothing wrong nor sanctionable in questioning the behavior of a committee that works at the behest of the community, of which I am part of. If questioning (and I am not "bashing"; I am questioning) ArbCom is somehow wrong by ArbCom's standards, then I submit that it is ArbCom that it is in the wrong.
        • At Racepacket's interaction ban, the Committee decided to ban Racepacket from commenting on LauraHale on any WMF project. Yet, ArbCom has no jurisdiction over "Wikimedia projects other than the English Misplaced Pages" (ArbCom policy). When the ban, which is not permissible under ArbCom policy, was violated by Racepacket this month, ArbCom continued to believe it held jurisdiction over conduct on other WMF projects. As a result, ArbCom decided 10-0 with 1 abstention to ban Racepacket from Misplaced Pages for his actions. On 14 June 2011. the community in a vote of 134-20 overwhelmingly supported the new ArbCom policy which, among other things, added the Jurisdiction section before the Racepacket case closed. I could see where ArbCom might make a misstep in the case in June of 2011, as voting for the interaction ban was happening while voting on the new policy was happening. It was still in error to put it into effect on 19 June 2011 when the policy had been passed and applied by 14 June 2011. But, far more serious is ArbCom believing, 8 months later, they still held sway over conduct on other WMF projects. I call this going off the reservation. The initial interaction ban was in violation of ArbCom policy, and the subsequent project ban was also in violation of ArbCom policy.
        • In the Δ case, Jclemens continued to allow evidence that was considered to be inadmissible to not only influence his decision, but prevent his decision from being changed unless Δ apologized for it. In the real world, if a jury considered evidence the court had declared inadmissible, and it became known they did so, there would be a mistrial. That is not, by any means, the only case of ArbCom misconduct in this case.
        • ArbCom is not required to participate on this page. If ArbCom members decide not to post here, that is perfectly fine. Similarly, the community is not forbidden from posting here, nor is the community forbidden to question ArbCom's decisions. "This page is for discussion of formal announcements by the Committee". Am I somehow in the wrong for discussing here? If so, please enlighten me. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Hammersoft: You are wildly mistaken on many issues. The Committee has always taken evidence of good behavior or bad behavior on other WMF projects in account to making our decisions here. So much so, that we routinely tell indefblocked users (or banned users) that evidence of working well on other Misplaced Pages sites will be factored in on any decision to offer an unblock/unban. Conversely, when misbehavior is done elsewhere, we note that too. The Arbitration Committee in the Racepacket decision noted the corrosive nature of the accusations made by Racepacket, past the point of acceptability. We have no control over simple.WP.. and we took no action on simple.WP when they made those recent comments that strayed far beyond the bounds of decency and acceptability. No nudges from ArbCom were needed, wanted, or applied, they independently determined that Racepacket had made statements inconsistent with them staying on Simple.

In En.WP's case, however, this was evidence that continued a pattern which included an attempt to contact another Wikipedian's employer in a blatant violation of WP:Harassment, the Committee put in the no-interaction remedy to try to resolve these issues, and when Racepacket violated them, it was a realization that no matter how long the ban lasted, that the behavior would not improve (and indeed that they were going further with their statements then they had previously!) that letting Racepacket back on en.wp without evidence that they had A) Realized that they had got it horribly horribly wrong with their behavior, and B) Improved their behavior significantly would be profoundly foolish.

As for Δ, while I had decided while reviewing evidence/workshop that a ban was not only "on the table" but a more than likely consequence of having so many issues (so much so that I felt like it would be the same thing over and over and over (with new issues each time, for example, the unhelpful edit summary on thousands and thousands of edits), others were hopeful that there could be a managed set of circumstances that would keep Δ editing.. I can say there was no "negotiations" so to speak, at least in the way most people think of the term negotiations.

Instead there was an attempt by a party to the case to influence a recused arbitrator via IRC into becoming a advocate for a party in private arbitration discussions.. This discussion, (which the arbitrator in question felt profoundly uncomfortable with discussing this with the party, and shut down the conversation due to the unacceptable nature of the conversation. When this party tried to sway another arbitrator in private discussions, they were asked up front if they had contacted any other arbitrators in an attempt to sway their minds on this case, and they had said they had not done so (in effect, blatantly lying to the second arbitrator about contacting the first one).

I would also submit however, that more then the character issues shown in this case, that it was more that we could not find a simple set of restrictions that would both prevent further issues, and allow Δ to continue to edit in the way he felt most comfortable. Remember, the reason that we accepted this request to go over Δ's restrictions was that it was felt that the community-imposed restrictions had too many grey areas and areas open to (vociferous) debate on whether it applied to certain edits or not. That was not possible unfortunately, as we could find no set of restrictions that were both concise and workable. Remember the old saw that "A camel is a mouse designed by coommittee"? When we tried to answer the questions at hand (how to prevent further issues, and cover anything that might reasonably pop up.. several Committee members might have looked at the situation and decided that rather then replace one set of unworkable, loophole filled, ambiguous restrictions with another set of overly worded, loophole filled restrictions, that a ban was a simpler and more reasonable action to be taken. SirFozzie (talk) 16:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• SirFozzie, thank you for your response. Simple questions:

1. The ArbCom policy states "The Committee has no jurisdiction over: ... (ii) Wikimedia projects other than the English Misplaced Pages; or (iii) conduct outside the English Misplaced Pages.". Is this true or false?
2. This policy was put in place on 14 June 2011 . Is this true or false?
3. On 19 June 2011, ArbCom enacted an interaction ban prohibiting LauraHale and Racepacket from "commenting about each other directly or indirectly in any forum related directly or indirectly with Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia Foundation. This includes mailing lists, IRC channels that use the word "wikipedia" or "wikimedia" in their name, or any WMF-hosted project." (ban implementation). Is this true or false?

• If you answered true to all three of these, then ArbCom violated policy. ArbCom does NOT have jurisdiction over Simple Misplaced Pages, or indeed any other WMF-hosted project.
• I don't dispute that ArbCom can take into account off-wiki evidence. That's not my point. My point is that you prohibited either party from commenting on the other on any WMF-hosted project when policy clearly states you do not have the jurisdiction to do so. Subsequently, this month ArbCom decided to acknowledge that said ban had been violated, tacitly acknowledging that ArbCom still believed it held jurisdiction over conduct at Simple Misplaced Pages. ArbCom can consider off wiki evidence. This is codified at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Admissibility_of_evidence. But, ArbCom can not ban someone from commenting on someone else outside of en.wikipedia. This is equally codified at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Jurisdiction. Yet, this is precisely what ArbCom did and subsequently sanctioned Racepacket for violating that policy violating prohibition.
• Please note; I am not agreeing with or disagreeing with Racepacket's actions, nor am I commenting in any way on his actions. I am questioning ArbCom's behavior in that case.
• As to the Δ case, I agree ArbCom took the simple route out. In fact, ArbCom was already voting to ban within three hours of the PD page being created; long before there was any consensus by the committee on what was actually the problem. So, voting on banning Δ began even before the committee had publicly decided what the problem was. I noted this problem the same day it was created , yet ArbCom went ahead anyway. It is a logical failure to be deciding on remedies to fix a determined problem when the actual problems have yet to be determined.
• "Hello, Car Repair, Inc. Can I help you?", "Yes, my car has a problem", "It's probably the transmission. We'll replace it for you for $2000", "Wait a minute, I didn't even tell you what the symptoms of the problem are!", "Oh, well, ok we'll replace the transmission and then you can tell us what the symptoms are. That'll be an extra $100". --Hammersoft (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Just commenting on your remarks about Racepacket, which seem to misunderstand/misinterpret both policy and the interaction restriction. Although the Committee has no jurisdiction over other projects, we are explicitly authorised to "take notice of conduct outside its jurisdiction when making decisions about conduct on the English Misplaced Pages if such outside conduct impacts or has the potential to impact adversely upon the English Misplaced Pages or its editors." What's more, the interaction ban explicitly instructed the restricted parties "to immediately cease commenting about each other directly or indirectly in any forum related directly or indirectly with Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia Foundation".  Roger Davies 09:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Roger, that is exactly the point, "The Committee has no jurisdiction over: (i) official actions of the Wikimedia Foundation or its staff; (ii) Wikimedia projects other than the English Misplaced Pages; or (iii) conduct outside the English Misplaced Pages." - Yet the ban notice says "cease commenting about each other directly or indirectly in any forum related directly or indirectly with Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia Foundation. This includes mailing lists, IRC channels that use the word "wikipedia" or "wikimedia" in their name, or any WMF-hosted project." (my emphasis throughout). You have the right to use such evidence in a case, but you have no right to express a ban prohibiting such behaviour. The furthest you can go is a warning, which is already dangerous per WP:BEANS. Moreover, using parts of these as evidence for expanding or enforcing ban restrictions is dangerous: 'mailing lists' - Email spoofing. --Dirk Beetstra 10:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Since your questions are slanted in a "Have you stopped beating your wife" kind of method: I would invite you to show what action we, the en-WP Committee took on Simple, or ANY OTHER Wiki other than en-WP, but we both know there's none. The only actions we took were to ban Racepacket, direct him that if he wanted to return to en-WP, to not comment directly or indirectly on LauraHale (and direct LauraHale not to comment directly or indirectly on Racepacket). Later when, he made those comments, we made the ban indefinite on En-WP. I would submit that this is not truly about concern about policy or whatever, this is an attempt to browbeat the Committee and its members because we made a decision you disagree with greatly, similar to when you were insistent that the Signpost report this as a "Controversial" action on Lord Roem's talk page. SirFozzie (talk) 17:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for the accusations that I am using Loaded questions. I am not. I stated the three questions above in simple true/false terms. You are welcome to disagree with them, but they are statements of fact, backed by solid evidence. The same can not be said for the use of assumptive evidence on the Δ case.
• ArbCom didn't take any actions on Simple Misplaced Pages. You will of course note that I never said ArbCom did. ArbCom has jurisdiction to ban those two editors from commenting on each other here, on en.wikipedia alone. There have been plenty of interaction bans placed here on this project in the past with regards to editors' interacting with each other on this project. ArbCom does not have authority to prohibit anyone from commenting on anyone outside of en.wikipedia, yet this is precisely what ArbCom did. You ARE welcome to consider evidence of their interaction on Simple Misplaced Pages in deciding what actions to take here. You are NOT authorized to prohibit that interaction. Since ArbCom based the decision to extend his ban here on a violation of a ban that was against policy, the decision is invalid.
• Thank you for your characterization of my comments here as an attempt to browbeat the Committee. This is of course not the case, but you are most welcome to your opinion. I have zero expectation that ArbCom will overturn their decision, no matter the comments made here. That is not my purpose. With regards to the Racepacket case, my purpose is to highlight the violation of policy and see what ArbCom has to say in their defense. With regards to the Δ case, it is to highlight what I believe to be misconduct on the case. Am I allowed to do so on this page?
• As to my comments to Lord Roem's talk page (see discussion); I was not "insistent". I would ask for your leave to assume proper action on my part. As I stated there, I am not a frequent contributor to ArbCom. My familiarity with ArbCom and its actions is not extensive. That is now changing, in part thanks to Lord Roem's comments there. The only characterization that should be derived from my comments on his talk page is summed by my last response there.
• I thought the amount of controversy generated by this case was extraordinary. Apparently I was mistaken; significant controversy over a case is the norm. I find Beetstra's comments in this line to be interesting, and I will watch to see how that evolves. Thanks for your time, --Hammersoft (talk) 17:39, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

An arbitration decision is not usually universally praised, if it was that cut and dried, it would never have reached the Committee, being resolved well beforehand. I once said "An arbitration decision is lucky if it only enrages half the people following the case." but that comes with being the final step on the dispute resolution chain. I would suggest you would find yourself in a vast minority on declaring the Racepacket remedies "invalid", however, I am by no means infallible, and I do note that the RFC on ArbCom is still open and you can always seek support there if you wish. SirFozzie (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• With regards to the invalidity of the Racepacket decision, "What is right is not always popular. What is popular, is not always right". Thanks for the information about the RfC. I was not aware of it. I'll have a look. Thanks again for your time, --Hammersoft (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

AGK, I hope you don't mind me returning a question. You say that 'generalised ArbCom-bashing is probably why few arbitrators are willing to participate in discussions on this page'. You know that ArbCom decisions are often met with resistance - do you think that, if the ArbCom would manage to build up the case in a proper way, and lay out proper reasons for their decision, in stead of making decisions without obvious, clear, transparent findings for that (or even, making decisions while there is no on-wiki FoF supporting the decisions - like happened in this case before the voting on the last FoF), and then at the end put down the reasons, that then the public would not have reason to question your decisions (or at least less).

Let me give an example here, on the Proposed decision talkpage, I was pointed to the Recidivism Principle. I think that that is a good principle, and it is certainly of interest to this case. However, there is no Finding of Fact stating that directly states that recidivism is a problem here, while it obviously has a major effect in this case (see the number of people who say 'there must be something wrong, this is the third(!) case'). It even seems that parts of the decision to ban is (partially) based on the Recidivism Principle (see e.g. [diff by Jclemens). It would greatly help, even if it is blatantly obvious in some cases, that there would be a FoF voted upon, where it is worded out, with linked evidence, that Recidivism with Δ is a problem. That can then be used to choose a proper Remedy. It may in some cases be blatantly clear, but it would increase the transparency of the decision.

So first vote on Principles and Findings of Fact, and when there is a base, craft Remedies that are in line with those Principles and those Findings of Fact, and then vote on Remedies. (Note: Principles or Findings of Fact based on off-wiki / personal information can still be voted upon using appropriate wording - at least it is clear that the Arbs agree that something off-wiki is bad enough for them to decide a strong Remedy - here e.g. 'Δ was lying in response to a direct question from Jclemens on IRC' - as that is apparently what happened). I know that that will prolong the case (though Remedies can already be made in the Workshop, but not on the Proposed decision), but it avoids at least the massive feeling of impropriety that quite a number of members of the 'public' now have about this case, and the strong feeling that some of us have that the remedies are utterly not supported by the FoF's (especially at the moment that the ban was fully voted on, but before the passing of the last, overnight FoF). I am sure that that will result in less 'ArbCom-bashing'. It also allows the public to more participate in the situation - if Arbs are totally deciding a case on something that happened off-wiki and which is bad enough to have one of the strongest possible punishments that ArbCom can hand out, then a workshop phase can turn into an utterly futile exercise - something that seems to be the case here. --Dirk Beetstra 16:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Separate question to Jclemens. Can you indicate whether the moment that you discussed the IRC-discussion between you and Δ mentioned here with the Committee was before the ban-proposal already passed, or after that moment? --Dirk Beetstra 16:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The conversation between Betacommand and myself, initiated by Betacommand, happened on January 4th, 2012, and was communicated to the entire Arbitration Committee via the mailing list later that evening. FWIW, feel free to ping me on my talk page if you have specific questions for me, because I would regret not noticing them in a timely manner. Jclemens (talk) 20:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to see this ban suspended in lieu of a practical set of sanctions and intense mentoring to be actually incorporated. I see no reason to proffer the request unless there was some indication from staunch advocates of the ban that such a compromise was even possible. Jclemens, would you agree to hear such a Motion? My76Strat (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What would be the basis for such restrictions? Betacommand has had restrictions, and not followed them. He's repeatedly taken either an "I'm ArbFucked(tm)" approach or attempted to persuade individual arbitrators instead of addressing us as a group. Asking on behalf of someone else demonstrates your courteousness, My76Strat, but nothing about Betacommand's willingness to engage in the process. Looking at his contributions to the case, it's clear there is no basis on which to see him doing anything other than blaming other people for his own choices and the consequences of those choices. Editors who admit their mistakes are almost never banned by the committee. We've not arrived at this point through anything other than a series of dreadful failures of Betacommand to act in an appropriate manner. For what it's worth, I did an analysis of some of his automated edits back in the NFCC time frame, where I graded each A/B/C/F (I couldn't think what a "D" would be). In my own analysis, he had no "F" edits, that clearly contravened policy, but I evaluated his overall grade point average to be about 2.7: Most of his NFCC edits would have been done better by an editor of average skill taking the time to analyze and solve the problems. Ultimately, there are plenty of other programmers, and Wikipedians can and should rise to the occasion and fill whatever void Betacommand leaves with programmers who don't have his problems. Jclemens (talk) 02:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for that thoughtful response. Sir the only basis of my concern is propriety. Much more to the spirit of propriety than anything written. My perspective derives completely from the fact that an indefinite block would completely satisfy every concern you legitimately raise. It's the social disconnect associated with a ban that I believe egresses propriety. And the imposition of a 1 year period where mitigation will not be heard. I agree there are statements Δ should genuinely make. And that certain sanctions should be in place. I understand there should be clear authority to impose a block for even a slight concern, to work it out. For example I think it would be reasonable if any arbitrator asked Δ to cease editing until an issue is discussed that he should cease editing upon that request, excluding the talk page where the issue was being discussed. And I think it should be as simple as a net three votes to vacate the suspension so repercussions are swiftly possible if the worst assumptions come to fruition. I honestly believe Δ could benefit from intense mentoring. If either of the named mentors from the previous suspension enunciated to me that they honestly tried, I'd reassess that belief, but my understanding, and what I have seen asserted is that it was in name only and truthfully nothing was ever done in that regard. You asked once if we should extend rehabilitation X times to an editor. I say no, unless N = -1, which is how I feel this case appears. My76Strat (talk) 04:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Jclemens, I will address the questions and the discussions here, but will poke you on your talkpage. I noted from above that apparently Arbs don't follow the discussions on this page, since the consistent ArbCom-bashing that is taking place is a reason for them to avoid it, I did not consider that Arbs might miss the discussion (maybe as a result of that). My apologies for that.

Follow up question. This is a private communication, and it would need both of your permissions to be published online. Did the ArbCom consider to ask permission from Δ whether the discussion could be published on-wiki, and similarly, did you consider to give permission to publish that discussion on-wiki. And related, could we see if the logs can be published after this case, and further, could the Commission consider that, when off-wiki evidence is being used, that a serious attempt is made to get such evidence on-wiki? I have full respect for the cases where that is not going to work, but I do think that it in some cases would help the transparency of the cases. Thank you for your answers. --Dirk Beetstra 04:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Not to speak for Jclemens or anyone else, but I think the issue of the IRC communications may be drawing disproportionate attention. There may be disagreement about whether the matter should have been mentioned at all, but I doubt very much that it changed many, if any, arbitrators' overall views of the case or what the sanction should be. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I asked the committee if it would be worthwhile to mention it onwiki, and there were some in support and some opposed for various good reasons, including NYB's above sentiment that it wouldn't really have changed much. As I've said elsewhere, all it did for me is erode my willingness to consider non-block measures: since he lied to me in response to a direct question, and refused to either admit or apologize for that, my mind is made up until such time as that changes. At any rate, there was never any offer on Betacommand's part to publish, nor any such request from me or the committee, since the evaluation of the merits of the communication was that it wasn't worth the trouble. Ultimately, I may be the only one who was at all swayed by the IRC communication, and that, only to the extent that it removed my willingness to pursue lesser sanctions which relied on Betacommand's compliance: if he's going to lie to me, it's not worth my time to postulate sanctions that rely on his honesty and forthrightness. Jclemens (talk) 04:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I already answered in part to this below. It already seemed to be the case that even without this off-wiki evidence, there was going to be a decision of banning Δ. It still leaves the question, whether the on-wiki evidence in itself is severe enough to allow for such a remedy. I, for one (and you can find others dispersed here on this page, and on &Delta's talkpage, and maybe in the counter votes on the ban-proposal), am not convinced that the presented evidence is so severe as to allow for such a remedy. But worse, since the ban decision was effectively taken way before the passing of any FoF severe enough to support that, it give the feeling of impropriety that even the on-wiki evidence was not influencing the outcome of the vote. That raises serious questions as to the objectivity of this decision, Jclemens. --Dirk Beetstra 06:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, you're not convinced. You are entitled to run for the committee next year, and make the perceived injustices of this case part of your platform. As is, I witnessed any number of lesser alternatives fail to gain support and a few committee members who had been most earnestly seeking such alternatives throw in the towel and accede to a site ban. As is, I'm not sure that there's anything further to discuss here: the committee ultimately has the responsibility for deciding based on what we believe is the best outcome for the encyclopedia as a whole, and the arbitration process is explanatory--it serves to explain to the community how and why the decision was reached and why remedies are selected--rather than judicial: the lack of what some consider to be sufficient findings of fact was indeed an issue for some, but not all, arbitrators. What this decision lacked in committee cohesiveness, it made up for in the elongated on-wiki considerations of multiple alternatives. Jclemens (talk) 06:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Whether I run or not for the Committee next year is not the question, Jclemens - I am sure that your job here is not an easy one. The problem is not that we disagree - you may very well have made the right decision - the problem is that you did not convince me, I think it is a serious shortcoming that you did not convince me, and many others here. It raises, maybe wrongly, concerns that evidence is not seen in a proper perspective (which is difficult anyway - but when that it raises questions whether the remedy really solves the problem, if it really eradicated the root of the problem), but also that remedies are based on assumptive evidence, or even subjectivity - and the latter two are serious concerns. And those concerns are strengthened here by the fact that the ban decision was taken before any serious FoF was passing that could support such a ban. I here, seriously, question in this case the way this case is handled, and I can all but hope that it is just this case where those concerns are so strong. I am afraid that such concerns can seriously affect the credibility of the ArbCom as a whole, having a major impact on the decisions of past cases, even when they were pretty clear cut. --Dirk Beetstra 07:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, Newyorkbrad. That may be true. If you think that the decision would not have changed when the IRC discussion would not have taken place (which I am indeed convinced of that it would not have), then we are back at square one for my questions during the final stages of the case. There was at that point a 10 - 6 voting in favour of banning, without even anything close enough to support such a severe decision. Even after the final FoF, one that at least puts blame on Δ that something is wrong, there is, IMHO, not enough evidence to support such a severe decision. Above there is the example, if someone shoots a gun 100 times in the air, and breaks one twig, does they then deserve death row. If that is the case, it is either using the evidence out of perspective (it is a capital punishment to break a twig), it is using assumptive evidence (if he shoots 1000 times, he may kill someone), or there is a lack of objectivity (it is Δ, ban him anyway and move on). --Dirk Beetstra 04:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with you 100% in your assessment of the evidence, and I know that those who voted for a siteban agreed even less. But since in the vote on the ban I was one of the 6 rather than one of the 10, I should probably leave your points to be responded to by colleagues. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, Newyorkbrad, it may very well be that there is enough in the evidence (but the strong voicing of the select few who actually consider that there may be a problem, both here and on Δ's talkpage - you know that the general public does stay out of the dramah, but I do recall that the last unban discussion on AN was more of a no-consensus discussion then to significantly tipping towards either end - and the community is not even outright dismissing the idea of letting an editor who got banned for copyright violations back into their corps of editors), as well as the fact that you, rightfully, say that 6 of the 16 arbitrators who voted did not support the ban does give me the feeling that that evidence there is certainly not so strong as to support a site ban (but I may be wrong). Whether my assessment is right or not, or whether it is assessed out of its perspective, or whether it is assessed with WP:CRYSTAL assumptions, or just plainly assessed subjectively is not the question - I even doubt if this, in hindsight, would make any difference - but the fact that ArbCom allows for such questions to be made allows for the ArbCom bashing that is here now currently going on. And I am afraid that that seriously undermines the credibility of the decisions that ArbCom is making, even if those decisions are right. --Dirk Beetstra 06:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break 2

I've followed the discussion here and understand that some editors agree and some editors disagree with the decision. I don't propose to post-mortem the outcome here. Everything that has gone on, including my unsuccessful attempt to resolve related issues in the decision I drafted in Betacommand 2, I find the decision reached by the majority to be understandable. On the other hand, I had hoped we could agree on a remedy short of banning Delta from all participation in the project, and I did my best to craft a more narrowly tailored sanction, which failed to pass.

I don't propose to post-mortem the Racepacket case or motion either, not least because I am recused in that case. However, responding in general terms to Hammersoft's jurisdictional point, I believe he may have overlooked the very next paragraph in the Arbitration Policy after the one he has quoted. That paragraph states: The Committee may take notice of conduct outside its jurisdiction when making decisions about conduct on the English Misplaced Pages if such outside conduct impacts or has the potential to impact adversely upon the English Misplaced Pages or its editors. Typically, the Committee does this only in extreme situations; this jurisdiction must not be misused to interfere with legitimate discussion, which may include fairly harsh criticism and name-calling, of Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians on other sites, be they Wikimedia sites or unaffiliated. But certain types of off-wiki behavior are over the line, and it must be the case that the Committee or the community have the ability to address them by banning a serious offender from the English Misplaced Pages. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:36, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for taking the time to respond Brad. Unfortunately, no I did not overlook that paragraph. I've attempted to make my point several times above, and have failed. I'll do so again here. The point I was making is that the original interaction ban between LauraHale and Racepacket forbid either party from commenting on each other on projects beyond en.wikipedia, or indeed on any IRC channel related to WMF. ArbCom is explicitly forbidden from doing this. I am not suggesting that you don't have the authority to consider either party's off en.wikipedia actions. I am stating, as does policy, that you don't have the right to forbid such actions. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:36, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the clarification. However, I don't see why the one wouldn't be the extension of the other. In a way, it's almost more fair to give a user who is teetering on thin ice the benefit of guidance on what to avoid doing to stay out of trouble. Let's say the Committee is thinking "A has harassed B. If A harasses B one more time, even on another website, we're going to ban A from En-WP." Doesn't it actually benefit A to warn him of that fact, rather than surprise him with it post facto? At most, you are saying that the original decision should have said "A is warned that he will be banned from English Misplaced Pages if he mentions B elsewhere" as opposed to "A must not mention B elsewhere," but since we all know (and the policy repeats) that we couldn't ban someone from another site anyway, it seems to me that the distinction you are making is largely a semantic one. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Not at all. What ArbCom did was a clear violation of policy. It's not question of semantics. However, I do think there's quite a serious problem right now with how ArbCom conducts its business (and I'm not referring to any one or group of someones), in so far as how things are supposed to be done. What I am seeing, with the more that I learn, is a rather large disparity between more professional arrangements one would expect in the real world and how things have been arranged here. ArbCom has evolved, to be sure, but I find the practices here astonishingly disconnected from real world professional practices. --Hammersoft (talk) 04:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Brad's answer seems fine to me. His alternate phrasing "A is warned..." is perhaps a more precise way of saying what the decision meant, but that reading of the original text was obvious all along. The very well established and vigorously enforced WP policy WP:NLT is worded about the same way as Brad's alternate phrasing. NLT explicitly says that WP can't stop you from filing a real-world lawsuit against another editor (WP has no authority over the courts), but if you do so, you are not allowed to edit Misplaced Pages. That shows Misplaced Pages has a longstanding practice of reacting very firmly to certain types of off-wiki conduct by editors. The Racepacket ban worked about the same way. Arbcom should be doing that type of thing more, rather than less. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 04:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• • • (ec)Newyorkbrad, in the end it turns out to be a question of semantics, but it is an initial break of your own policies. The warning might have been good, but you may even get into severe problems actually using such off-wiki evidence. Here on en.wikipedia you have access to the checkuser utility, something that you would not have outside of that. So some creative use of a new IP range (maybe wait three months until primary checkuser data is gone ..) trying to imply you are party A on en.wikipedia, then claim an account here on en.wikipedia making that a likely sock of party A and make sure it gets blocked as a sock, and then go to xx.wikipedia, using that SUL account and insult party B. That decision severely steps over the bounds, it is very dangerous to even give the warning, let alone put it in such strong words, which is just a plain invitation to do so (note that I am here now intentionally breaking WP:BEANS for this reason). --Dirk Beetstra 05:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, you lament an "unsuccessful attempt to resolve related issues in the decision I drafted in Betacommand 2" The inability rest not in the words you formed, which were efficient to accomplish your intent; it rests entirely with the manner of implementation. The failure to enforce the required mentoring is a very large mitigating factor. You have expressed many reasonable assertions throughout this case as well. I hope you would also consider it worth the extra effort to continue advocating while options are available. According to policy: "Any editor may ask the Committee to reconsider or amend a ruling". I certainly want it understood that I am approaching things with that hope at core. My76Strat (talk) 05:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to get heavily involved in this except to say that I support arbcom making decisions it feels it has to solve situations, and to point out that when I participated in earlier discussions on Betacommand/Delta with the same vigour that some users are here, I had all kinds of insults and personal attacks hurled at me from those supporting him. the lengths that some will go to above to try and excuse his behaviour is just laughable and really should tell Arbcom all they need to know. There are those for whom Delta can do no wrong. To use some of the far reaching analogies above, even if they watched him run someone over and roll back and forth over the victim there would be at least a dozen reasons why it wasn't really his fault. This is the same song and dance that has been going on since this started 4, 5 or however many years ago it was at this point and I commend arbcom for hopefully finally putting it to bed.--Crossmr (talk) 10:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

And there are those for whom Δ can do no good. Crossmr, I think we can agree to disagree on this, and I think that we both agree that Δ did things which are wrong. I can also agree that if there is a properly built case with proper evaluation of evidence and all, that this may be the only outcome. But I (start to) have serious doubts about those processes - evaluation of evidence, assumptive evidence, or even plain subjectivity - which are extremely evident in this case. This time it is someone with quite some on-wiki enemies who gets banned .. next time it is a good friend of the majority of the ArbCom who gets a slight slap on the wrist? You can't tell me that that is the type of 'justice' that we want prevalent on Misplaced Pages? --Dirk Beetstra 10:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Crossmr you make some valid points in your comment. Never lose sight of the following quote: "I believe that discussion is necessary for growth of Misplaced Pages. Discussion isn't leaving an opinion and walking away. It requires putting forth that opinion and discussing its place in the greater scheme of things. That means people may not agree with you, and you may not agree with them. The key is to stick to the matter at hand and discuss that." For it is just as insightful. My76Strat (talk) 11:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

So, we go on discussing this until we die then? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I agree with your insinuation here ASCIIn2Bme. My76Strat (talk) 12:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Certainly, and in the past I've debated this subject to no end, and I've constantly had that discussion slammed in my face by his supporters via insults, premature closes, personal attacks, and various other stalling and obfuscating techniques all serving to derail any discussion on the matter.--Crossmr (talk) 11:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I've commended Delta on his behaviour on more than one occasion when he actually showed improvement. Delta did do things which were wrong, yes you tried to reduce them to trivially insignificant percentages, but the fact remains he was under restrictions, he violated them and it's time he paid the piper. The time was far too long and the degree of improvement not enough--Crossmr (talk) 11:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that this and other cases (e.g the CC Arbcom case, the case involving Cirt, etc.) illustrate clearly the main flaw in the current ArbCom system. ArbCom now functions as a mini community, just like a small group of editors could discuss issues at AN/I. This then leads to similar divisions among Arbitrators as exist in the community, so in the end the problems are not fundamentally resolved, except that there is now a binding ruling. This dynamic leads to editors being banned/restricted in sometimes illogical ways, because other solutions require more work to put together and the lack of consensus make such solutions not get enough votes. But ArbCom can't afford to pass nothing, so that's why you end up with climate scientists being banned from editing articles on climate science, an Admin who'se Admin work was excellent being desysopped because of complaints about an infinitesimal fraction of his contribution to articles etc. etc.

ArbCom should fundamentally change the way it goes about its business. There should be a few Arbitrators who study all the relevant facts of the case, they should write up a report about the issues at hand. The entire group of Arbitrators should then discuss primarily from that report, it should not be like it is at present where every individual Arbitrator looks at the raw facts him/herself. What happens now is that most Arbitrators have an incomplete view of the entirety of the relevant issues, and each of them then tend to focus on those issues that they individually feel most strongly about. Count Iblis (talk) 01:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

There's certainly some merit to that sort of approach. Ideally, that is what drafting arbitrators are empowered to do, but we are somewhat hit-and-miss on that--that is essentially what has happened in Civility, but not so much with Betacommand 3. It's my hope that TimidGuy likewise has the events and issues entirely clarified before the decision is posted in a day or so. Jclemens (talk) 07:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, this is not completely clear to me. Do you mean that in 'Civility' the ArbCom did use such an approach, and in 'Betacommand 3' they did not, or the other way around? --Dirk Beetstra 08:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The former. Jclemens (talk) 08:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the base opinion anyway, having been a drafter for several cases, I do not want my fellow arbitrators to just "rubber stamp" my opinion. When I write up (or collaborate with my fellow drafters to write) the drafted decision, while I fully intend to explain how and where I got from point a (the evidence) to B (what I think the decision should entail in principles, findings, and remedies)... but I would certainly hope that if my fellow arbitrators disagree with where I ended up, they would speak up and just as importantly, correct things if they feel other findings or remedies are required. Arbitrators are elected for, in part their ability and good judgement. Let them exercise it.

In this case, we had some communication issues (not the least of which was that I had severe health issues during the case, so much so that I missed three weeks of work in real life along with missing out on things here, which is why I've been inactive for several weeks now as I recover). What Jonathan is referring to is that a lot of arbitrators like to post a framework proposed decision on the private arbitration wiki during the workshop phase, and make sure to keep it updated as more evidence/workshop proposals come in (and make sure that all of us are fully aware of what is going on). SirFozzie (talk) 08:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

A to B

I am very concerned that efforts to get from A to B are seriously curtailed if we must go thru C to get there. I wish to be very clear that I wouldn't support a finding that required a measure of bad faith to be consequential. I do believe there are sufficient grounds to request an amended ruling. And I have high confidence ArbCom will do what is right. That may relegate me to the dissenting view, but my dissent is conjoined with my respect. I'd like to see a bit more of that, even when it might be due unto me. I entered this case being called a "devils advocate". I expressed disdain at that time, because I did not wish to be presumed to be advocating a position I did not actually believe. I do feel my own involvement was practically ignored and I consider part of that to be a systemic failure of the arbitration body. It is entirely possible that my expectations are unreasonably high, but I'd honestly hope they are not. My76Strat (talk) 06:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That's an interesting thought. You weren't a named party to the case. The arbitration process doesn't recognize advocates for parties (I remember running across a failed proposal to do just that at one point, but can't find it now), nor does it have any formal method to accept friend of the court briefs. So I can see where you're coming from that you might feel left out of the process, but I'm not seeing how that is a failure, let alone a systemic failure. You submitted evidence, along with 16 other people. Much of that evidence included opinions on how the committee should interpret events, much of that opinion at variance with others' opinion--thus, as close to friend of the court briefs as we have in arbitration. A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think courts usually take the time to address the points made in every amicus--those accepted are incorporated, and those not accepted are simply not mentioned in the decision, yes? So, having said all that... what do you think the committee should have done differently? Jclemens (talk) 08:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes sir, I understand your reservations. I did my best to anticipate, and mitigate these concerns and did motion to be added as a party. This is one of too many ignored requests. I am a "friend of the Court" in that I have respect and confidence in the body. But I am a participant to this case with an involved perspective. I had stated I only knew Δ for about 5 months, but that most recent 5 month period contains a plethora of information relevant to the antecedent to the case and genuine conduct that refutes the propriety of a ban. My76Strat (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

To the second part of your comment: If I could only change one single thing, it would be an absolute requirement that respect and decorum be unequivocally maintained. We truly have a poor track record at communicating with each other, and it has such a detrimental effect on ability, and potential. My76Strat (talk) 08:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

My76Strat: You disagree with the Committee's decision to ban Δ, that's clear. However, that doesn't make the decision invalid, nor would it if you had been named as a party. The Committee and its members DO carefully read all the information posted (trust me, it's a source of considerable eye strain for me) by parties and non-parties alike. We may disagree with the conclusions that members have drawn, because we are charged to be the final stop on the dispute resolution chain. We are charged with doing what is necessary to resolve situations. Was BC-fatigue a problem? Probably. I even mentioned that in some of my workshop proposals that A) it is unusual for someone to be the focus of three separate cases (over five years), and that B) The committee had already stepped in once previously to.. well.. not overrule the community (in relaxing the community ban that Δ was under at the time),more like allow a path back to editing.. and unfortunately, the Committee had to step in and remove him from the NFCC area, and then there was further issues.. so yes, fatigue might be an issue. But to think that the decision would have been any different if you had been a party or not is not reasonable. SirFozzie (talk) 08:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you sir, I appreciate your comments. I genuinely wish I could share the surplus of my energy to invigorate anyone overly fatigued. I would so much rather see things answered, than otherwise circumvented. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Format of decisions requires "Where the meaning of any provision is unclear to any arbitrator, the parties, or other interested editors, it will be clarified upon request." and that hardly leaves room to ignore a direct request, fatigued or otherwise. My76Strat (talk) 09:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You misunderstand how I use fatigue. The Committee (and the Community) had bent over backwards to find ways for Δ to edit. By fatigue, I mean that we had tried just about everything possible to keep them editing (so much so that the Committee held a community ban in abeyance to let him return!).. the fact that we voted to ban him is not saying that all his edits are bad, or that even he is a bad person, just that after a long case (and the aforementioned years of issues), that we could not find a way to retain the positives of his editing without the issues rising up. So more than "I'm tried of seeing his name, let's ban him!" it's "We've tried everything under the sun and unfortunately, this is the next logical step." SirFozzie (talk) 09:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

As one that would normally side with Δ on points, I do find the ban action as probably a controversial but otherwise appropriate route per the issue of minimizing disruption and fatigue. There are actions I can't defend Δ for doing in light of sanctions and other warnings, and that's his burden to bear. So I don't think ArbCom is wrong in enacting this aspect. But my concern, as I noted in my uninvolved cased statement, is that while this is primarily Δ's problem to fix, there is a small enough impact of editors that are entrenched against his return to the work that should have been addressed. Editors under sanction are certainly to be under scrutiny, but at the same time, we have to be aware that those under sanctions are human. Application of sanctions have to be made with common sense and common courtesy, especially when the edits are non-disruptive. A tap on the shoulder for a small failing does a lot more good than trying to shut them down completely. How Δ then responds to these is critical. --MASEM (t) (eta: 23:10, 2012 February 20)

I absolutely agree with your comments, with very minor extenuation I'm saying, "hell yes". By craftsmanship, you have posted the "timeless message" of this case; and were astute to omit the (UTC). Sincerely - My76Strat (talk) 23:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oops, didn't mean to omit that. --MASEM (t) 00:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'd like to share a link written in the same real time that Masem was writing the above. For they significantly regard the plight of Δ as well. - My76Strat (talk) 00:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you mean this and if anyone cares, it's about a proposal to modify the wiki software use the template system to insert new, unsourced info into 1000's of articles around the clock, an unsound suggestion as the VP discussion shows. As for human failings, Δ is human but his robots were not. There were some workshop proposals designed to keep the human but ban the robots (i.e. limit Δ to editing at human-like speeds) and those proposals got considerable traction, but Δ's supporters opposed all of them. Perhaps if they'd gotten on board, Δ wouldn't have been banned. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 05:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting my link to your satisfaction. I disagree with the synopsis you portend of the link. I did take liberty and remove the belligerent portions of your post. If you require such attacking prose, you may reinsert the text and I'll not again correct it for you. I disagree with the premise of your bot editing assertions. I do agree that opportunities at compromise were missed. - My76Strat (talk) 06:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It was not my intention to attack anyone (it's clear I was criticizing the VP proposal itself, not its author) but I modified the description and toned down the editorialization per your change. (Obviously the description is intended to present the main objection, not capture the nuances. People wanting the details can click the link.) That someone posted a not-so-good idea on VP and had it shot down is fine--we all have our moments of unwisdom. Δ's "plight" (as you put it) is more like if the person had the idea and instead of posting to VP, had simply deployed a bot to implement it without prior discussion, and did similar things over and over even after being put under a restriction (like Δ's) to post to VP ahead of time. I would say that firm intervention (up to and including a site ban) would be more than justified in a situation like that. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 07:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Added: the original version is here and I think your edit obscured the snarkiness of the original description, so I think people would have been unlikely to be confused by it. I'm not going to make a fuss about it but I think it's really best to not edit other people's talk page posts unless they're blatantly over the top, which this wasn't. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 07:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I do agree to a certain degree with that, 67.117.145.9. But I'd like to make the point, that most of Δ's ideas were not new ideas. There are some which are controversial in themselves, everybody is doing them (or even, everybody 'should' be doing them). Some of those tasks are extremely tedious, and would be better by either bot or user-supervised script. And I am even going to argue that we should allow for errors being made there. Right, Δ should (have) ask(ed) permission for such scripts, per restrictions, and that was not done. And that should have, and has had, his effect in the form of blocks. It is merely a difference in nuance to the whole thing, but I do think that some of the ideas, or maybe even all, were shot down because Δ did/suggested them, not because they are a bad idea in themselves. --Dirk Beetstra 08:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I point to the large thread that Hammersoft started to try to get each task that Δ claimed he was doing approved by the community, and the numerous replies "Well, a bot can do the same job, so oppose this task". It clearly wasn't the task was inappropriate but the person doing them. And that, to me, shows that editors are not considering the behavior, and only the editor involved, in their decisions. Yes, Δ's under sanctions, of course people will care about the net result of his edits, but this type of outright dismissal is part of the problem I mentioned above that isn't addressed by Arbcom at this time. --MASEM (t) 14:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Audit Subcommittee report of activity for July 2011 to February 2012

Original announcement

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility enforcement closed

Original announcement

•  Bureaucrat note: I have desysopped Hawkeye7 (talk · contribs) pursuant to this case decision. MBisanz 02:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
• I regret that the Committee did not effectively address through remedies the underlying issues of policy that have generated this dispute and many previous ones like it, namely, the issue of the first or second mover advantage in policy enforcement, the general problem of widely differring expectations concerning the undoing of admin actions or the conduct of veteran editors, the resulting apparent unenforceability of the civility policy and the issue of how and when to block or unblock during or after the regular ANI screaming matches among friends or detractors of problematic but established editors. I appreciate that the Committee does not want to resolve these policy matters by fiat, and it shouldn't, but it should have provided for and managed a framework for a broad community-based process to arrive at a set of clear and enforceable rules to resolve this set of problems. It is the lack of such rules that is the core problem, and not the conduct of the individuals involved in this particular conflict. As long as we don't have broadly accepted rules concerning these issues, these conflicts will continue to reappear.  Sandstein  16:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
• I suppose that how those of use who label ourselves as "admins willing to make difficult blocks" are treated as we move forward becomes important. If the community hands us our asses afterwards, then the project is going to rapidly go downhill on the civility scale. IMHO, we've had a lot more responsibility put on us when others are unwilling to block. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• It's rather a vicious cycle for "difficult blocks". Difficult blocks are difficult because they're likely to result in screaming. The more they result in screaming, the fewer people are willing to subject themselves to that screaming by doing the blocks, and the more those blocks don't stick because the screaming is taken as proof that the block was invalid. And a case like this one, that shows that blockers are likely to be treated as harshly by arbcom as blockees are, well, that makes the situation worse for those willing to make those blocks. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)