Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:21, 5 March 2012

Biography: Sports and Games Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the sports and games work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Tennis Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Tennis, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that relate to tennis on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TennisWikipedia:WikiProject TennisTemplate:WikiProject Tennistennis Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Tennis To-do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Cleanup : Take an item off the Cleanup listing Copyedit : Roger Federer, Leander Paes, Rafael Nadal, Justine Henin – to be used as examples for ideal page structures Expand : Grab a Start article and expand it, or peruse the List of articles. Photo : Add photos to Tennis or Tennis people articles Stubs : Bring a Stub up to our standards. Other : *Sign up as a member of the project. Tag more articles with our standard project template. Help with the creation of yearly main articles and drawsheets for every Open Era ATP and WTA tournament.

Croatia Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Croatia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CroatiaWikipedia:WikiProject CroatiaTemplate:WikiProject CroatiaCroatia Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

removal of diacritics

User:Fyunck(click) moved the article from its original title Saša Hiršzon to Sasa Hirszon over redirect saying:

Tennis Project Guidelines are to use English alphabet as per ITF and ATP.

I see no such thing at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Tennis/Article guidelines - all I could find was Juan Martín del Potro over there (notice the í, his ITF page and his ATP page). We discussed such a matter at Talk:Mate Pavić already, and I'm moving it back. Can you please cease this apparent campaign of making non-English personal names inconsistent in tennis articles? --Joy (talk) 12:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

No. You must not have read the guideline well enough. And this was discussed at many pages other than Mate Pavic. We use the English sources available and Sasa Hirszon is spelled as such in all of them. Would you please keep to Tennis guidelines and stop reverting English sourced spellings? Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you please point us to the exact part of the WP Tennis guidelines that supports your position? I'm honestly not seeing it.

I will remind you that it is you who have started the reverting here, because the original article was written with diacritics by an Australian member of WP Tennis. --Joy (talk) 19:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

And I explained to Jevansen the error and he/she understood. Guidelines state - "Use common English spelling as found on ATP and WTA websites. Otherwise use press releases, grand slam websites, other tournament sites, books." This was discussed by the Tennis Project way back in 2008 (I think that was the timeframe). Administrators then moved the pages to the English alphabet. Of course since then many have been moved back. I don't just go by the English alphabet, I go by the English sources which 90% of the time are diacritic-free. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Also when an article has been at an foreign spelling for a long time it's usually not worth my while to change it... but this was just created and Jevansen was also moving articles to non-project worthy titles (or pages he was working on were suddenly moved by others), so it got my attention very quickly. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:59, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

As we have discussed previously, I believe any such Tennis Project guidelines that are apparently stuck in some talk archive can't magically trump WP:Article titles policy. If you want to object to this kind of interpretation of that policy (again), use WP:RM or similar procedures. --Joy (talk) 09:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

They don't trump title policy. Wiki policy does not say to use diacritics. It's a wiki guideline that is ambiguous at best so projects have developed their own work-arounds, and this is ours. No problem though... when I get the chance I'll list it as an RFM to get it done as we've done with other articles. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not talking about any guidelines, but about the article title policy. Article titles should be recognizable, natural, precise, concise and consistent. The diacritics may detract from naturalness by way of missing from the English alphabet, but that's because the name is not English in the first place - it's foreign. They don't detract from recognizability, precision, conciseness or consistency, in fact they improve three out of four of those parameters. Overall, it's pointless to claim that "Sasa Hirszon" is a better English title than "Saša Hiršzon" - *neither* is an English title, and both renderings of the surname are effectively unpronounceable by English speakers. It's hard to pronounce for Croatian speakers, too :) --Joy (talk) 12:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a matter of opinion. In this English Misplaced Pages, and using the English alphabet, it is easily more recognizable, natural, concise and consistent to use Sasa Hirszon. Precise I leave to experts. We also have to deal with Use English, Common name, etc...

As I said, wiki is ambiguous at the very best when it comes to titles so it is left to Projects to make some sort of guidelines that work for their topic. We have and we have plenty of English sources to back it up. And sourcing is our backbone here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Saša Hiršzon be renamed and moved to Sasa Hirszon. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Saša Hiršzon → Sasa Hirszon — Per ITF, ATP, Davis Cup, Tennis Guidelines and Tennis project consensus, his English sourced name is Sasa Hirszon and that's where this should be located in this English wikipedia. The foreign spelled version should be in parenthesis in the first paragraph as normally required. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:27, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Survey

• Support. No diacritic in this name as it is given by The Independent, Toronto Star, New York Times, or New York Daily News. Kauffner (talk) 02:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - as we already discussed above. Bottom line is that there is no observable benefit in removing the diacritics. --Joy (talk) 11:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Foreign names like Saša Hiršzon must be written with the correct diacritics in English (per AMA, APA, ASA, The Chicago Manual of Style and others). As shown by the most reputable English-language reference works, including Britannica, Columbia and Encarta (examples here), the correct spelling of foreign names is definitely not optional when building a high-quality encyclopedia, no matter how much the diacritics might annoy some of our sports-oriented editors. "We must get the article right" (WP:BLP) and avoid propagating common errors and misconceptions, especially when writing about living people. Prolog (talk) 10:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose move to incorrect spelling per WP:COMMONNAME. Key sentence: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.", and as this is an encyclopedia. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose WP is diacritics tolerant. We should certainly retain them as we should seek to impart encyclopaedic accuracy, which, in this case of a native Romanised form, is obvious. --Ohconfucius 09:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The subject is almost exclusively notable for actions in or on behalf of a country that uses the diacritics in question. —  AjaxSmack  00:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The person has only one name, and it is Saša Hiršzon. - Darwinek (talk) 10:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - This is an obvious move , not only per the project tennis guidelines, but because of WP policy that insists that for the title of an article we use the most frequently used name in reliable English sources. WP:TITLE. Just because many other tennis player names are still with diacritics doesn't mean we shouldn't start moving them according to this clear policy. This is the English WP. MakeSense64 (talk) 11:21, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

The principle benefit is that the reader is provided correct information as to how this name is commonly spelled, per English-language reliable sources. A typeable title is also easier to link to and to search for, but that's a secondary matter. Kauffner (talk) 14:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

You used the adjective "correct", and that opens a very slippery slope for your argument - if you want to talk about what is "correct", then "Sasa Hirszon" can be immediately disqualified as not being "correct" because this is not in fact the person's name. --Joy (talk) 20:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

And, I'll spell out the obvious retort to the sources argument just in case people read this out of context - the spelling laziness of English sources influences the criterion of recognizability of article titles, but that doesn't magically trump the criteria of preciseness and consistency. --Joy (talk) 20:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The general idea of Misplaced Pages is that we follow and summarize the English-language sources, not argue with them. In any case, it is easy to show that your argument is quite wrong. Sports writers remove diacritics because that is the convention of English-language sports writing. Kauffner (talk) 20:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

So you prefer to be arguing against a living person's birth certificate? :) Also, the general idea of Misplaced Pages is that we try to be an encyclopedia, as opposed to a meta sports journal. --Joy (talk) 21:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

As we look to our English sources that's what we use. Have you looked at the Czech[REDACTED] lately? You'll see they change the English spelling of people like Serena Williams to Serena Williamsová... that's fine because if that's the way they spell it in Czech with Czech sources then that's the way it should be over in their wiki. Here at tennis and this English[REDACTED] we use the multitude of tennis sources and English press to determine how a name is spelled in English. Since they usually use the English alphabet so do we. My birth certificate may say Kołodziej, but in the USA and UK our family spells it Kolodziej. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and this person spells his name Saša Hiršzon, because he didn't move to the USA or the UK. Besides, the Czech example you presented is flawed - even if the Czechs did add a "ová" suffix, they didn't seem to "fix" the foreign letter "W" or the foreign word "Williams". If they had spelled it e.g. Viliemsová, that would have been vaguely more convincing. The suffix seems to be making it more in the spirit of the language (female surnames seem to take a feminine form). "Sasa Hirszon", on the other hand, is not in the spirit of the English language, it's got nothing to do with it because it's still a foreign blurb that's exceedingly hard to write and pronounce in English. --Joy (talk) 08:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Newspapers follow AP style and strip off diacritics for the convenience of copy editors with deadlines. But in the case of sports, this convention goes across mediums. Magazines like SI, or reference works like ESPN Sports Almanac and Sports People in the News, do the same. Kauffner (talk) 04:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe you can extend that argument to say that in the case of everything it goes across mediums, because a lot of people don't have/care for Unicode and such. Yet, that still doesn't trump all other WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. --Joy (talk) 08:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

What? criteria like WP:UE, WP:UCN, WP:OFFICIALNAME, WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:RS would all point to moving it to Sasa Hirszon. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

UCN is not about spelling and notes that common inaccuracies are often avoided. RS states that we must use the sources that are reliable on the issue at hand; in this case, the spelling of a Croatian person's name in an encyclopedic context. Prolog (talk) 10:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The sports writing convention does not extend to general-purpose encyclopedias and dictionaries. The Encyclopedia of Tennis and the Historical Dictionary of Tennis also spell player names with the correct diacritics. Prolog (talk) 10:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

"Croatian top tennis Davis Cups players have been Ivan Lubicˇić, Mario Ancˇić, and Goran Ivaniševic´. That's from HDT. Looks like Scarecrow Press still has a thing or two to learn about Unicode. Kauffner (talk) 11:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (sports and games) articles
• Low-importance biography (sports and games) articles
• Sports and games work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Start-Class tennis articles
• Low-importance tennis articles
• WikiProject Tennis articles
• Start-Class Croatia articles
• Low-importance Croatia articles
• All WikiProject Croatia pages
• Requested moves