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India v. South Asia

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Talk:Pakistan#Kashmir conflict should be merged

Mediation Cabal: Request for participation

Dear Mar4d: Hello. This is just to let you know that you've been mentioned in the following request at the Mediation Cabal, which is a Misplaced Pages dispute resolution initiative that resolves disputes by informal mediation.

The request can be found at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/08 February 2012/Indians in Afghanistan.

Just so you know, it is entirely your choice whether or not you participate. If you wish to do so, and we'll see what we can do about getting this sorted out. At MedCab we aim to help all involved parties reach a solution and hope you will join in this effort.

If you have any questions relating to this or any other issue needing mediation, you can ask on the case talk page, the MedCab talk page, or you can ask the mediator, Whenaxis, at their talk page. MedcabBot (talk) 00:26, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• FYI: This mediation was closed because Darkness Shines did not agree to participate, the mediator has now listed a structured RFC so that this issue can be over come: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Indians in Afghanistan. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay. I notice that this is based on a selective option voting system. I like that concept. I'll be around to add my perspective on the issue. Thanks for notifying. Mar4d (talk) 11:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the issues were too complex to be handled by a normal RFC. I've informed all involved users (except JCAla who already knows). --lTopGunl (talk) 12:05, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: Af-Pak cricket

Hello. Strictly speaking the match isn't a home match for either, although you could consider Afghanistan to be the "home team" as Sharjah is their unofficial home ground. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 18:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Assassin'S creed 07:41, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Afghan cricket team vs Pakistan in the UAE in 2011–12

Hello Mar4d. How would you feel about a joint effort between us in getting the Afghan cricket team vs Pakistan in the UAE in 2011–12 article to good article status. I did initially think it wouldn't be possible, but then came upon this article by the excellent User:Harrias, who managed to get it to good article status. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 10:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a good initiative. I would be willing to work and help in promoting the article to that status. This game was a significant milestone in many different ways, not just in Afghanistan's sporting history, but also for cricket. There is also good coverage of this event in multiple mainstream reliable sources, so with some dedicated work, I do not see how there would be anything hindering in getting this article to GA. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 12:15, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Excellent! Once I've finished creating William Pickett I'll crack on with it. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 12:33, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I've added an incomplete match report for the Afghan innings, what do you think so far? AssociateAffiliate (talk) 14:42, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello mates, I am appreciating you for this struggle but I also want to participate in this effort. Actually I want to get knowledge of this, are you ready to allow me to participate? -- Assassin'S Creed 18:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I've expanded the match report and included a full scorecard to compliment the summary scorecard. I have a tendancy to rabble on, so the match report section can do with some rewording and probably shortening somewhat. I'll leave that part in your capable hands. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 22:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that was really quick! The article is in a good shape. I'll see what I can do, but good work on the expansion. @Assassin: Misplaced Pages is an open editing and collaborating environment, so you would are welcome to edit the article. Mar4d (talk) 00:07, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you think can be done to the lead? I'm not sure about the home ground info being in the lead, but if removed from it the lead would be way too small. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Inter-Services Intelligence

The RFC is going nowere, I have brought the issue to DRN Darkness Shines (talk) 23:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Check your mail

Hey, thanks for the notification. Just noticed that there's some older emails from you. Lol, I actually haven't visited my inbox for ages, so just let me know whenever you send one. Will reply soon. Mar4d (talk) 14:23, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Haha, those must be months old. Alright, will add the template next time...lol. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:31, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Union councils or populated places

Hey Mar4d! I am here to get an advice from you on an important issue. There are two categories of every District in Pakistan, Union councils of XXX and Populated places in XXX. Now tell me how will be that if all Union councils categories redirect to their respective Populated places categories. Please tell me, should they redirect or remain separated as Union councils?-- Assassin'S Creed 10:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi. A union council is basically a form of local village-level government in Pakistan, so these categories are largely relevant. I think they should remain. Any articles on union councils that are categorised into the district 'populated places' categories should be categorised into the union council categories instead. On the other hand, large cities or towns in a district (for example Raiwind in Lahore or Khushpur in Faisalabad) can remain in the 'populated places' categories. The same can be said for tehsils - there are categories for those too (see Category:Tehsils of Pakistan) which contain tehsils of each district. Again, it wouldn't be reasonable to mix articles of 'tehsils' with articles of 'union councils' in the same district "populated places" category, so I think all district populated places categories should have subcategories for 'tehsils' too, similiar to union councils. By categorising articles into their respective appropriate categories (union councils, tehsils etc.), we would be following the structure of the local government structure in Pakistan (see the chart for example at the bottom of Administrative units of Pakistan). Mar4d (talk) 16:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

So to put it simply, there should be a category for each district (eg. Category:Populated places in Rawalpindi District). Then each district category should have two subcategories: one for tehsils and one for union councils (eg. Category:Tehsils of Rawalpindi District and Category:Union councils of Rawalpindi District). All articles should be sorted into whichever is appropriate, while cities, towns or large suburbs can just be put in the main "populated places" category. I have also noticed that all the categories at Category:Tehsils of Pakistan are only divided in province-levels. I think it would be a good idea to reduce their size and divide them further into district levels. I might start creating these new categories when I get free. The tehsil templates at Category:Pakistan subdivision templates may help in doing this. Mar4d (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I understood. An other thing when I am working on templates, there are some union councils templates, I think they should redirect to Neighbourhoods templates because I am making a separate list of union councils in all templates (e.g Template:Neighbourhoods of Lahore). What do you think about it?-- Assassin'S Creed 17:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that's reasonable. Mar4d (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

(The Nation (Pakistani newspaper) not a reliable source? WTF?

Not when it is an Op-Ed. So well done for that. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Why would a piece published in a reliable news source be "unreliable"?. In this case, the writer is also notable and has written several pieces for the newspaper. Unless you bring up relevant policy backing your claim, your argument probably doesn't stand. Mar4d (talk) 16:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. WP:RS would be the policy. Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces are reliable for attributed statements as to the opinion of the author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact The Op-Ed is not only being used as a statement of fact it is being used as a definition. Like I said, well done for that. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, though you may want to re-read the phrase but are rarely reliable for statements of fact; rarely does not necessarily equate to always, especially in a case like this where the author appears to be notable and the definition also seems to be in common use. See for example the use of the term/neologism "Pakistanophobia" mentioned in Fox News: 'Pakistanophobia' Grips France. Mar4d (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't you have better things to do DS? --lTopGunl (talk) 16:56, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• No he has not,he should take a cup of tea with honey and think about!! Justice007 (talk) 16:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Categories.

• Hi dear,would you please take a look at British Lingua (Institution) for adding relevant categories.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 16:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• Wow,very speedy.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem :) Mar4d (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

May you please.

• For your kind help to categories at Satyapal Anand.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 22:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Ami Birangana Bolchi

Would you be so kind as to translate this for me please, I have found three or four different versions so far and am unsure which is correct. Thank you. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This looks like a Bengali phrase. I am not a speaker of Bengali, so can't really comment on this. Mar4d (talk) 02:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: SPA's

Please

• Please add relevant categories at Rosaria Piomelli,and lot of thanks for. And are you familiar to upload images to wiki articles??. Justice007 (talk) 12:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a look as soon as I get some time. Mar4d (talk) 14:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

FAC

I've nominated Pakistan for FAC: Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Pakistan/archive1. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Right, I'll be around and follow that closely. Mar4d (talk) 02:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Terrorism

Check out the sources I provided at Talk:State-sponsored terrorism as well. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Good find, I'll try to see what I can do. By the way, you're free to edit this page yourself anytime, if you feel you have something to add or improve. Though I'll confess that I don't currently have any intentions to publish this article yet until maybe after a month (or even longer) down the track. The current aim is to get as much WP:RS about this, because otherwise, this article will end up looking something like this straight away. But anyway, feel free to edit it. Mar4d (talk) 11:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure... I'll add anything adequate I find. It won't be that if you add sources precisely backing up the content. I tried to add that content along with sources to that article too but there were too many editwarriors around who didn't like the content.. so I left it for the time being. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Did you add The foreign policy of Pakistan: ethnic impacts on diplomacy, 1971-1994 to the article Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War during your recent edits. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Why have you reverted the article? The article lacks clarification, context and also failed to provide extensive details of the language issue, which I added. There are also some grammar issues. Mar4d (talk) 17:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted it because whoever edited it has totally misrepresented the source, that is why. Discuss any further changes on the talk page please. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I would recommend you start a section on the talk page for the tag you just put on the article. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Glitch

I think your browser didn't fully load the content . --lTopGunl (talk) 12:55, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

You're right, that's what probably happened. I don't remember deleting anything. Mar4d (talk) 12:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yep, happens with me often, so I check by dragging the scroll to the end before making a save. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

This article is actively undergoing a major edit

Do you know what that means? It means stop adding shit to the article whilst I expand it. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

First of all, some civility can be used while posting messages. I will remove any future messages that contain inappropriate language. As for the tags, they are going to stay until some clarification is given as to whether this article is about Indian military abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, numbering in the thousands, or just a propaganda piece about a militant insurgency which is nowhere near as far as human rights abuses against civilians are concerned. Mar4d (talk) 13:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Shove your request for civility, when the inuse tag is on an article it is "civil" to not edit. So stop. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Apart from your refusal to gain a consensus or even discuss, and apart from your misrepresentation of sources these two take the biscuit. Morning News. 7 December 1947 (in Bengali)The Azad (a daily newspaper) (Abul Kalam Shamsuddin, Dhaka). 11 December 1948 Please provide scans + translations of these so I can verify them. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:11, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

1-rr

Hello Mar4d, when you deal with a user who is under a WP:1RR all attempts to game said revert restriction to get the article to read the way you'd like it, by trying to entrap your opponent into breaking his restriction, can lead to blocks for disruption.

For the future, when undoing Darkness Shines's edits (or the edits of any other person who is under a revert restriction), please consider yourself bound by the same restriction. If you revert more than once you *will* be blocked for attempting to game Darkness Shines's restriction and to get him blocked. Salvio 16:12, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

• In case you had somehow missed this means you have already broken the restriction as you had already reverted less than 24hrs ago, please self revert. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:16, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
• This still counts as a revert Please self revert. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:22, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

No this doesn't. Only the *undo* counts as a revert. I am not aware of any restrictions on manually editing out content that has issues, for being discussed on the talk page. Mar4d (talk) 13:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry but it does, read WP:3RR Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. We can ask Sal if you desire Darkness Shines (talk) 13:30, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Well there you go, the quote itself says "undoing". I did not undo, I manually edited out i.e. deleted the said objectionable content, which is different from reverting or undoing. Haven't you been doing that all along? Mar4d (talk) 13:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I have asked Sal to explain it to you. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, but today is a hectic day – deadlines, you know... However, technically, when determining if an action is a revert, I examine its result: if it is largely the same, then the action is a revert (the addition of similar material, for instance, even if phrased in a slightly different way if repeated counts as a revert). Therefore, if you first undo Darkness Shines's edit and, then, you remove the very same material manually, you have violated the restriction. Salvio 15:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

But I have already made it clear that the "undo" doesn't count. I did the "manual" removal to make up for the undo. Therefore, only the manual removal is intentional, not the undo which has been discredited. On that account, I do not feel that I have not violated 1rr. I have removed the material only once. Mar4d (talk) 15:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Rape in Indian controlled Kashmir and Punjab 1984

Hey Mar4d I have noticed you seem to be involved in articles to do human rights violations committed by India I was wondering if you believe a separate article on the mass rapes which occur in Indian controlled Kashmir is worthwhile and the mass rape of Sikh women during 1984? since other wiki articles are based on instances of rape?

Here are a few sources these ones focus on rape largely in Kashmir: 1) http://www.gendercide.org/case_kashmir_punjab.html 2) http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/jul/230711-Army-orders-probe-into-rape-allegations-by-Kashmir-woman.htm 3) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1940088.stm 4) http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-09-11/india/28067205_1_shafeeq-ahmad-shopian-qazi-abdul-karim 5) http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_718711.html This source is particulalry important as it reveals a list of 1,400 rape victims since 2006 so only 6 years ago and the Indian army has already raked up 1,400 rapes 6) http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/467fca501a.html From human rights watch 7)http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17268355 recent source about 400 officers being charged since 2009 again these are Large numbers and cannot be whitewashed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xeros8946 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this deserves a separate article due to the magnitude of the indian armys rape statistics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xeros8946 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I dont know how to priperly space things but there is also wikileaks which states India has has been using systemic torture in kashmir http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8208084/WikiLeaks-India-systematically-torturing-civilians-in-Kashmir.html please take some time out and read as I dont have the relevant know how on making new articles but I think the sources clearly show rape is a big issue here is bit of information from source "According to the cables, which will prove a major embarrassment for the Indian government, the ICRC interviewed 1,296 detainees of whom 681 said they had been tortured. Of those, 498 claimed to have been electrocuted, 381 said they were suspended from the ceiling, and 304 cases were described as “sexual.”" Thanks for time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xeros8946 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

First of all, welcome to Misplaced Pages. Yes, I intend to write further on this topic and your sources above are indeed good finds among many reliable sources available. I will definitely take into account these links when working on the article. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 08:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I found further sources: Xeros8946 (talk) 09:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Hi Xeros8946, good finds there. I think you should add the sources and the text you want directly to the article. That way, other users know what the consensus is. If you can not format them properly I or Mar4d can correct those. You might have to debate on changes on the article talk page as well. Mar4d's advise about try the sandbox is good, but if you can edit here, I suppose you are experienced enough to add them to the article too. Don't worry if some one removes them... the next step would be to debate on the talk page and get them in according to the consensus. The sandbox idea in my opinion will only be considered as the views of the editor who copies them to the article and have comparatively lesser weight in consensus. I would advise you to be bold and directly edit the article.. ofcourse you can first test in the sandbox and see how it turns out. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Fake encounters

This is about staged killings of "terrorists" who are actually civilians here is the BBC source: here is another follow up by BBC on fake encounters in 2010 The Hindu a Indian source also reports the killing of a mentally challenged civilian this occured in 2011

Mass Graves

This is about the huge unmarked graves found in indian occupied kashmir the sources are as follows : this is general discussion on Guardian regarding these graves. Amnesty international referring to mass graves and other human rights atrocities. Indian source reporting the deeds of the military. BBC reports on the thousands of unmarked graves and thousands of missing men women and children in occupied kashmir. P.S if you think my posts are cluttering your talk page I could remove it and put it on your sandbox maybe? thanks again Xeros8946 (talk) 09:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, these are indeed useful WP:RS links that will definitely help. By the way, you are free to contribute to the article and help improve it if you are interested. If you do not have much expertise on creating/structuring articles as you say, I can help you along. At the moment, my Sandbox 4 is empty. You are free to write your version of the article there (if you are interested, of course) and incorporate the above links. I would be willing to help out with the structuring/formatting/whatever needs improvement, then we can copy over the finished piece to the article Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir. What do you say? Mar4d (talk) 10:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• UN report expresses concern over enforced disappearances, mass graves in Indian-controlled Kashmir

Recommended for deletion

Salam, just to let you know plese that I have recommended an article on Waleed Iqbal for deletion (pl ref to talk page of article) on the grounds that the subject is not really personally 'notable' by Wiki standards, at this time. Id be grateful if you could please also participate in this discussion, thanks. 39.54.48.210 (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

You're right, I was thinking of doing this a couple of days ago. I have redirected the article to Muhammad Iqbal for now. Mar4d (talk) 17:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Does the target article mention the subject? If not, put it up for CSD. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't, though I think a small line on Waleed Iqbal somewhere in a sentence about family wouldn't hurt. This person does have partial notability nevertheless, after joining the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf as a politician. Mar4d (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that would be a good idea so that the redirect doesn't go to CSD. As the editing history is preserved, if more info is available later or more events occur, the article can be split back. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure thing, will do this in the morning first up. Going to sleep for now, after creating Template:Sindhi language :) It's been a busy and crazy day (both on Misplaced Pages and off Misplaced Pages). Mar4d (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Hah, bet on it. Good work with the templates. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

3RR

You have not only broken the restriction Sal put on you, you have also violated 3rr with this revert please self revert. Darkness Shines (talk) 03:06, 10 March 2012 (UTC)