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statutes
I have added several of the relevant self defense statutes from florida. I have filtered the list to setions which I personally believe are relevant, and could be plausivly used by the state to decline prosecution, or used by the defense, or place limits on the defense. If someone thinks a particular statute or sub-statute is also relevant, I would not object.
I am also considering bolding parts that I think are particularly relevant, but that may cause possible POV, so I will take that under advisement. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:03, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting idea, but I removed it per WP:OR. This is an encyclopedia article about an event, not a forum for speculating about any possible outcomes of a court case. Maybe adding an internal link to Right of self-defense would provide a reader with a link to similar information without the neutrality issues? As for the bolding; sort of moot since the section is gone but I have never seen that done in an article before. Remember this is in main space; adding a bunch of intermittent bold phrases really killed readability. VQuakr (talk) 15:16, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
911 calls
I am not very familiar with using wikipedia, but I would like to bring up that the city of Sanford has released 911 recordings from the shooter as well as a few residents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 05:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up, I added a link to the article. VQuakr (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Not quite the link I was thinking of, but I gave it a go and added a mention of the City of Sanford's official release of the 911 recordings and added a link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, we should have a link to the city as well. I moved the reference to earlier in the paragraph, since the two sentences basically were duplicates. VQuakr (talk) 19:25, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
I am not familiar with using Misplaced Pages as well, but aren't the claims that Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin and that 2 shots were fired completely false? According to the witnesses in the recorded calls there is only 1 shot (listen to the call in the cited article - only 1 shot and the witness says 1 shot). Also, the article which is cited for Zimmerman apprehending Martin makes no mention of the fact. There is no evidence on how the confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman happened, but Zimmerman certainly has a history of pursuing suspects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.240.164.135 (talk) 09:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
In another call, Zimmerman claims to be pursuing Martin. 67.86.183.40 (talk) 20:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Relevance
Exactly how relevant and needed is the newly added "Background to Racial Tension in Area"-section? Feels like this is steering the article in a certain (non-neutral) direction. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- The observation this this is not a totally isolated incident is made by one of the sources (the Huffington Post article). That does not necessarily mean it should be included in this article, but it does show that the connection is not pure original research. VQuakr (talk) 23:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- The information in that section (which I wrote) is included in many of the articles describing the incident, and is relevant to explaining the degree of the controversy surrounding the death. I think there should also be mention of the recently passed "Stand your ground" legislation, too, as that is necessary to explain the police's situation and the level of evidence they would need to charge him. If you compare this article to another in which someone shot others and alleged self-defense, such as the Bernhard Goetz shooting, you can see that there, too, background leading up to the situation is included, such as the crime rate prior to the shooting. QuizzicalBee (talk) 23:53, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- It seems the Sanford Florida Police Department has (as they say) a 'troubled' history. I suppose the thing to do is to develop a page on them. The department has a good web site here. It is a large department as so seems notable. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 01:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- New page, Sanford Florida Police Department, please take a look.Paul, in Saudi (talk) 06:54, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Can an attacker claim self defense in Florida?
George Zimmerman attacked Trayvon Martin and when Trayvon Martin fought back George Zimmerman is allowed to claim self defense after he kills him.Beancrisp (talk) 03:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- So now a concerned member of the neighborhood watch becomes an attacker? Whatever happened to the policy of NPOV? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 05:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that is what happened but it keeps getting taken out. In the 911 calls Zimmerman was told not follow Martin but he did anyway. Zimmerman followed the boy and created the confrontation. Since Zimmerman was the initial aggressor his claim of self-defense will not hold up, but the case hasn't gotten that far yet so it is only speculation at this point.
- What isn't speculation is the fact Zimmerman has a history of repeatedly calling 911 and the recordings for this case have him saying things like, " always get away." Describing this man as a "concerned member of the neighborhood watch" is quite a stretch. 68.116.80.52 (talk) 07:08, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- There are sources to the contrary. Zimmerman had no criminal record, a clean slate, an education, and he had never been in any incidents before. Also worth mentioning: he's Hispanic (and yes, there are sources for that). 80.187.201.33 (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, he did not have a clean slate--he told police at at the scene that he had never been arrested, but it turned out he was lying. He had an arrest record for battery on a law enforcement officer in 2005. Not sure what relevance his being Hispanic has. QuizzicalBee (talk) 17:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- There are sources to the contrary. Zimmerman had no criminal record, a clean slate, an education, and he had never been in any incidents before. Also worth mentioning: he's Hispanic (and yes, there are sources for that). 80.187.201.33 (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
From a legal standpoint, florida actually has a specific exemption to the self defense statute that does not allow that defense for the initiator of an attack, so this is very relevant to the case, but I don't think we can include it until some RS starts talking about it. In an earlier edit of mine on the main article, I included all the statutes but they were subsequently removed, bu tyou can look back at that revision if you want to see the applicable text. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Potential racial motivation in the lead: more general summary?
While a lot of the public backlash is about perceived racial elements underpinning the shooting itself and the subsequent investigation by the Sanford police, it would seem that the facts can be, and ought to be, kept distinct from the motivation. My proposal would be to change the lead paragraph to something a little more narrative (though with proper attribution and facts, which I am omitting for sake of brevity in my point), along the lines of:
On February 26, 2012, Trayvon Martin, a teenager from (hometown), was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a member of the local neighborhood watch, while visiting family in Sanford, Florida. Members of Martin's family have alleged the incident was racially motivated, while Zimmerman has asserted that he shot Martin in self defense.
There might be a more neutral way to write it, but I think that by bifurcating the issue into the act and the response will help prevent the article itself from moving forward with the presupposition that racial motivations are the primary causal agent in this story. I think this will also help with organizing the entry moving forward as the story develops (e.g., actions taken by the family, statements issued by Zimmerman and his supporters, any outside activity by law enforcement or public figures that might be deemed newsworthy). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Voxrepublica (talk • contribs) 16:38, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- support a good compromise. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds good.QuizzicalBee (talk) 17:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- support a good compromise. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)