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==Jews in Romania== ==Jews in Romania==
You should admit the truth even if you do not like it! Some of the Jews were good Romanian citizens, but some of them, like the Jews from Transilvania were magyaryzed and faithful to Budapesta and a strong example is today Congressman Peter Ecstein Kovacs (his mother a Jewish woman and the father a Slovak!) and he is in UDMR a ethnical party of Hungarians in Romania. Also some of Jews from the east of Moldavia (Bessarabia) were soviet agents like Ana Pauker who was Foreign Minister of Romania and sign the paper to give Soviet Union the Snake Isle. So stop blaming other people for what happened in the past because the Jews had their own fault. Of course the Holocaust was a stoopid thing. Next time try to understand the point of view of the people instead of acusing them! Stop doing a false propaganda!] You should admit the truth even if you do not like it! Some of the Jews were good Romanian citizens, but some of them, like the Jews from Transilvania were magyaryzed and faithful to Budapesta and a strong example is today Congressman Peter Ecstein Kovacs (his mother a Jewish woman and the father a Slovak!) and he is in UDMR a ethnical party of Hungarians in Romania. Also some of Jews from the east of Moldavia (Bessarabia) were soviet agents like Ana Pauker who was Foreign Minister of Romania and sign the paper to give Soviet Union the Snake Isle. So stop blaming other people for what happened in the past because the Jews had their own fault. Of course the Holocaust was a stoopid thing. Next time try to understand the point of view of the people instead of acusing them! Stop doing a false propaganda!]
==Fear ?==
Do you want to make from Jews another kind of super people? That is not the right solution! And I am not afraid of you and your propaganda! ]

Revision as of 15:36, 16 April 2006

Archives

I added text that was deleted for unknown reasons in the antipolonism article: In Prussia, and later in Germany, Poles were forbidden to build homes, and their properties were targeted for forced buy-outs, financed by the Prussian and German governments. Otto von Bismarck described Poles, as animals (wolves), that "one shoots if one can" and implemented several harsh laws aiming at discrimination of Poles I removed the two links at front because they did't speak about the use of antipolonism. --Molobo 14:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I find it biased

Polish deaths are disputed as to they were part of Holocaust but Russian POWs and outspoken Lutherans aren't ? Seems very biased towards one nationality.The above mentioned groups would fill even less criteria then Poles. Thus it doesn't seem balanced view. --Molobo 01:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC) Thank you for your explanation. Moved then to proper place. Should be divided between Russians, Poles, Belarussians, what other nations classified as Slavs by Germans were subject to mass murder ? --Molobo 01:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC) Btw-according to Szymon Datner all Poles who had Jewish ancestors down three generations ago, were classified as Jews by Germans in many cases. --Molobo 01:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


  • Goodoldpolonius2, the statement you made on Molobo's page that the sentence was the "only" acceptable one is .... wrong ... to put it kindly. You were the one that changed my edits into that sentence.


> :I really think the section ought to be moved, it flows much better in the > Slavs section, and doesn't demean the number of Poles killed, which is mentioned > repeatedly. I may try to move it again. Can you bring it up on the Holocaust talk > page if you disagree, so other editors can give an opinion? --Goodoldpolonius2 05:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Goodoldpolonius2, the issue was already in the Holocaust talk page and other editors already had opportunities for comment. You have single-mindedly moved the content without yourself placing its move up for discussion. Perhaps you are the one who should have placed the move up for discussion?

Temporarily I have placed the number of Polish deaths in the top three paragraphs. Your repeated removals of Polish death counts from top paragraphs, in various ways it gets written, after you consent to them, is noted.

AP

I agree with your summary on Anti-Polonism that the term mixes in a very peculiar way the three notions. This should be properly documented in the article. alx-pl D 09:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Quote

I suggest removing the quote on "milions" and giving a sentence-some people believe that comparision between antisemitism and antipolonism of Jewish society isn't possible as antisemitism led to one of the greatest genocides of human history, while antipolonism fills the criteria of standard if regretable variant of xenophobia.

This is of course a rough draft that we can work on. --Molobo 09:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Zionism

can you give me a detailed explanation as to why you deleted paragraph 2 of Zionism article. It is correct information, factual, and neutral. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tarins01 (talk • contribs) .

RE: Zionism

  • "Although Zionism of the nineteenth century may have been secular to a certain extent" - Founders of Zionismm such as Theodor Herzl made little if any mention of a secularism or a secular state of Israel. Their works repeatedly mention and emphasise on an all Jewish homeland with Judaism as the sole religion, and rules made by Jews to be followed.
  • "Many zionists, including a large portion of (former) Israeli Prime Ministers such as Golda Meir have held the belief that Jews are entitled to all of the Holy Land which includes all of Palestine and other Arab lands" - No Israeli Prime Minister (all being Zionists) have been willing to stick to the land they purchased from the Arab/Palestinian Sherifate. Jerusalem was the Arabs, till it was invaded. Furthermore, Arabs managed to keep a hold of East Jerusalem, which was taken in 1967, till now all Prime Ministers have refused to bargain on Jerusalem beside Yitzak Rabin. Ben Gurion was the man to lay the foundation for invasion of other lands. He was the one that expelled the Brits and took what he felt. Netanyahu, Meir, Sharon all are responsible for expanding Israel at the expense of Palestine. Other Arab lands: are you saying that Israel is not colonising parts of Arab countries since 1967? If the statement is wrong, Israeli Prime Ministers would've abided by UN resolutions. None have so till now.
  • "despite the existence of the Canaanites (modern Palestinians) before the arrival of the Biblical Jews to Palestine. " Palestine is the Land of Canan. The Canaanites were in their land before Moses bought the Jews there. So how did it become the land of the Jews when the Canaanites were already there? The Jewish homeland given to the Jews by God is in the core of the Zionist ideology. Its repeatedly been argued that Jews are entitled to Palestine because they were there first and God gave it to them. This is totally absurd as its anthropological fact that Canaanites were the first inhabitants. The Book of World Anthropology makes clear that the Canaanites evolved to being modern day Palestinians as no mass shift of human races took place.
  • "Zionists do tend to keep the issue of a Palestinian homeland out of their agenda as it is contradictory to their beliefs." Again, the Zionist belief is to have a Jewish governed land in Palestine. Palestine doesn't appear on the world atlas anymore as it has been consumed by Israel and its Zionist rulers. For Zionists agreeing to build a Palestinian land means giving up some of Israel.

Thanks for your time. I look forward to reinserting Paragraph two after your reply. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tarins01 (talk • contribs) .

Yessir Yessir 3 Bags Fo

I hope you don't mind...per our discussion of several months ago, I've reinserted the text of the decree at Abrabanel's response to the Alhambra Decree. Tomer 09:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

RE: Zionism

Thank you..Your argument makes sense. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tarins01 (talk • contribs) .

Template:Israelis

Good luck with that. Trying to improve the logic, size, and appearance of that template seems to get one called ignorant of the topic, a POV-pusher, etc, etc. I'm still of the view that it really should be made more hierarchical (the better do deal with the size, and genuine link-relatedness), mind you. Alai 08:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

redesigned template.

Please review Template talk:Jewish language#redesign. Thanks for your time. Tomer 22:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Katyn

The quotes you mentioned were removed by Balcer. I still think its right to say that it was one of the largest Alled POWs massacres(I didn't wrote "largest" as you claimed), but I realize that entering such information would be controversial and result in opposition from many users. --Molobo 19:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

As to why it is regarded as Genocide by Polish institutions : http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_katyn_decision.html

The principles of international law adopted in the Statute of the Nuremberg Tribunal and subsequently expounded in the verdict by that Tribunal were confirmed in the UN General Assembly resolution no. 95(I) of 11 December 1946. That resolution also declares that genocide is a crime against international law, contrary to the spirit and objectives of the United Nations, and condemned by the civilised world. The term �ludob�jstwo� is the Polish equivalent of the English word �genocide�, which was introduced to legal language and practice towards the end of World War II. The subject of genocide was expounded in the Convention on the prevention and punishment of crimes of genocide, adopted by the UN General Assembly on 9 December 1948. In art. II and III, this Convention lay down the definition of genocide and the punishable forms thereof, and placed the parties under an obligation to make it enforceable by introducing suitable legal provisions to their domestic legislation (art. V of the Convention). Because of the circumstances of the Katyn Massacre, i.e. the fact that it was planned down to the very last detail by the highest party and state authorities of the USSR and carried out by the state apparatus under their authority, and on account of the scale and cruelty of the extermination of thousands of innocent people and the motives of the perpetrators, there is justification in considering the permissibility of applying the qualification of genocide within the meaning of art. 11 of the convention of 9 December 1948. It should be noted that the application of the conventional term genocide to the events that are to be investigated may arouse reservations especially with regard to an assessment of the motives of the perpetrators, i.e. whether their act was committed with the intention of eliminating the entire population or parts of it, and whether the provisions of the Convention are retroactive. Regarding the first matter, i.e. the motives of the perpetrators, in order to reach a conclusion it is necessary to refer once again to the contents of the ACP (B) Politburo decision of 5 March 1940 and its definition of Polish citizens as �avowed, incorrigible enemies of Soviet authority.� In this context, it becomes fundamentally important to determine the circle of victims of this Massacre and find out whether the motive of those who issued the order on 5 March 1940 was to eliminate Polish citizens on account of their nationality. It is generally known that the overwhelming majority of the prisoners of war and civilians selected for extermination were of Polish nationality. There were also members of other nationalities, including Jews, Ukrainians and Belorussians, but they all constituted a group of Polish citizens. One should bear in mind that the Republic of Poland was a multinational state in which various nationalities existed side-by-side and were treated under the law as "ethnic components� of the Polish Nation. This formulation was adopted by Polish criminal law doctrine in a commentary to art. 152 of the 1932 Criminal Code (�Whoever publicly insults or defames the Polish Nation or State...�), which included in the legal concept of �Polish Nation" all the citizens of the Polish State, regardless of their nationality. The selection of persons for extermination was also characterised by the fact that they formed part of the intellectual elite of the Polish Nation which, under the appropriate conditions, could assume leadership. It transpires from the surviving documentation on the prison camps at Kozelsk, Starobelsk and Ostashkov, where, as was mentioned earlier, reeducational tasks were undertaken, that this group of people did not change its attitudes and views and was determined to struggle for the return of its Fatherlands independence. Hence, L. Beria's note of 5 March 1940, recommending the shooting of the Poles, contained the remark whereby the prisoners of war expect liberation in order to be able to join the struggle against Soviet authority.The physical elimination of these people was meant to prevent the rebirth of Polish statehood based on their intellectual potential. Therefore the decisions of elimination were taken with the intention of destroying the strength of the Polish Nation and liquidate its elites. This thesis is confirmed by the careful selection of candidates to be shot, out of hundreds of thousands of other Poles in Soviet prisons and camps, on the basis of their social and professional status and their functions. Therefore one can conclude that the murder of Polish prisoners of war and Polish civilians by the NKVD was dictated by a desire to liquidate part of the Polish national group. Hence, this action assumed the status of genocide as described in art. II of the Convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide. The view whereby the extermination of Polish citizens is an act of genocide was also expressed in the USSR�s stance during the trial of Nazi war criminals before the Nuremberg Tribunal after the end of World War II. --Molobo 19:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I would say that the main arguments of Polish side that it should be regarded as genocide are following:

  • The selection of persons for extermination was also characterised by the fact that they formed part of the intellectual elite of the Polish Nation which, under the appropriate conditions, could assume leadership.
  • The physical elimination of these people was meant to prevent the rebirth of Polish statehood based on their intellectual potential. Therefore the decisions of elimination were taken with the intention of destroying the strength of the Polish Nation and liquidate its elites.
  • Therefore one can conclude that the murder of Polish prisoners of war and Polish civilians by the NKVD was dictated by a desire to liquidate part of the Polish national group
  • The view whereby the extermination of Polish citizens is an act of genocide was also expressed in the USSR�s stance during the trial of Nazi war criminals before the Nuremberg Tribunal after the end of World War II.
  • Having conducted evidentiary proceedings which did not confirm the opinion that the atrocity was carried out by the Germans, the Nuremberg Tribunal in its verdict did not make any substantive reference to the charge regarding the Katyn Massacre.

--Molobo 19:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

pexcilumbo

have a look here and there. enjoy the easter egg links.  :-D Tomer 03:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey lookie here...it's my synagogue.  :-D Tomer 05:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ashkenazi Jews and Koestler

Hey, GOP2. I've been involved in a bit of a debate on the Talk:Ashkenazi Jews page regarding the value and relevance of Koestler's work, and exactly how much mention (if any) it should received in the article. If you have a chance, would you mind weighing in? Jayjg 15:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


message for Goodoldpolonius2

Hello, maybe duplicate entry appeared around this time: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Holocaust&diff=35824344&oldid=35815819

The link is to an edit by you.

Thank you for contacting me regarding this matter. Good day. 69.57.226.137 03:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC) 69.57.226.137 12:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Goodoldpolonius2, I placed the paragragh and figure in top portion a minute ago. 69.57.226.137 23:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

request your assistance

Hi. I have a concern about a situation in the area of the 9/11 attacks. I don't know if you are familiar with the fact that people who question the official story of 9/11 are often smeared because of infiltration by anti-semites and people who try to pair 9/11 research with holcaust denial (it's an easy way for average people to dismiss anyone who questions what happened that day when they are also associated with anti-semitic remarks). At the moment there is a 9/11 researcher who I feel should not be listed on[REDACTED] because his website links to what I consider antisemitic comments. I also feel this inappropriate for[REDACTED] to be hosting this person's website information given that he damages the credibility of others who have real questions about 9/11 by pairing that information on his website with antisemitism.

Please see the discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Researchers_questioning_the_official_account_of_9/11#Proposal_to_remove_a_9.2F11_researcher_because_of_offensive_links and please click on the links. Thanks.

Thanks for your comment.

Your response -- staying away from those pages -- is what I believe people like him want to happen, and exactly why SO many 9/11 sites are paired with holocaust denial. Two good resources for how that's done in the 9/11 truth movement are:

It's one of the best ways to shut down a real investigation. A professor in Utah just gave a talk last night (7 rooms were opened up to deal with the overflow) and there was bomb scare. People don't want these questions asked. Pairing the info with antisemitism is one of the best ways to do that. Thanks for the suggestions.

Vandalism Reversion

Well, all right. I was just tired of seeing so many soulless 'rvv's everywhere, but I guess it's time to join the machine ;D -- Saaber 18:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Question

Why did you deleted the part you were saying that you met some nazis?

Image copyright problem with Image:Childwarsawghetto.jpg

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This applies to Image:Nurembergracechart.jpg as well. Thanks. Superm401 - Talk 15:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hawthorne effect

At this article, you made some changes to the introduction that I am interested in hearing more about. Unfortunately, felt the need to remove the changes for now, as there is no reference, and the material drastically changes the content. I haven't heard anything of this being debunked, and am intrigued to know more, but you've given no reference to follow. Please let me know where you found this information so we can include it and cite it correctly. If it is true, then it really needs to be included. Thanks. --DanielCD 14:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is wonderful. Thank you for that effort! --DanielCD 15:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment of the article, and am happy to see you have returned the material with references. It is on my cleanup list, as it is very sloppy. Hopefully I will be able to pay it some attention soon so I can rewrite it and make it shine. Thank you for all your efforts here. --DanielCD 05:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

FAC

Thanks GOP2 for the credit, but I am not the author of any of these assertions. I will try to do some research, but maybe we should ask these questions at some widely-read forum. Cheers! ←Humus sapiens 01:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

re The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Hi, thanks for your note on my talk page. I've replied to your fixes on the fac page. Regards, Mikker 16:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the message; I'll reply on the nomination page when I go through the FACs again. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 21:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Regarding this edit: Could you please include your sources? Thanks, Aucaman 01:54, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


Good Work

I like you (not in any other then respect). You're a good historian and a realist. Unlike many people you realize such facts as that allies weren't "saint saviors and heroes that destroyed the evil force of axis" or that even big historical figures have some "dark" parts. User:Kniaz

I created a short

Stub involved with Holocaust you might be interested in expanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/Sonderaktion_1005 --Molobo 00:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust denial

Given the sensitivities touched upon by the Holocaust article, I think it would be useful for each claim to be at least footnoted. Simply pointing to the links and saying (essentially) "find it yourself" isn't very helpful to the reader. On the other hand, it isn't a "critical" problem requiring an RV war. It can wait for the next re-write. Rklawton 18:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Excellent (and speedy) work. I find the whole subject so strange that it just begs credulity. The documentation you provided will really help. I hope future editors for this article will strive to do the same. Rklawton 05:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

I, Jayjg, hereby award you this Barnstar for your scrupulous adherence to Misplaced Pages policy and standards, most recently in your brilliant use of reliable sources at Holocaust Denial. 03:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations!

... on getting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to FA status.

I know I was a bear during the nomination process, but really I only wanted the best for this article. I hope you appreciated my suggestions and commentary. I could have just looked over it and made one or two minor suggestions as (I think) too many people do with FAs; but I felt I owed Misplaced Pages the fine-tooth comb treatment. And I think the article is much better off for all this.

It also helped because I have a couple of articles I have nominations in mind down the line for. I want to make sure they go in as ideal as I can make them. I'll let you know when they're up if you're interested (it will be a while, I think). Daniel Case 03:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome.
I notice no one's made the main page nomination yet. Would you like me to? Any date we have in mind (I think it might be a good idea to avoid Passover, given the subject). But I think it should be there, given that Triumph of the Will is coming up soon. Daniel Case 18:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been done. I suggested not any particular date but realized that mid- to late April has a bunch we might want to avoid. In fact, I said, maybe it should wait until early May. Daniel Case 04:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The date is set: March 19. Next Sunday. Doesn't have any of the overtly antisemitic connotations of the dates I told Raul to avoid (Passover and Hitler's birthday), but it is the third anniversary of the start of the Iraq War. Daniel Case 00:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Just giving you a heads-up: the Main Page featuring starts in less than an hour. There will be vandalism. Keep an eye on it whenever you're on so you can quickly revert. Daniel Case 23:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Judeofascism

Hi Goodold: Please see Misplaced Pages:Deletion review#Judeofascism. Thank you. IZAK 09:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

"Originate" @ Zionism

You revert the introductory paragraph of the article Zionism within the hour, and have the capacity to send me to Talk:Zionism to defend the correction I made to reflect the historic reality of the Jewish people's relationship to the Land of Israel (unnecessary as the history class on the Jewish people should've been, at least for you). Now I have been waiting two days for your decency to at least reply? Could you make your way just as promplty to the talk page (seeing that it was you that sent me there) as you do to your reverts. Thanks. Al-Andalus 08:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC).

Jacrosse

Just thought you might want to know that there are already two pending Requests for Mediation involving Jacrosse and his behavior on Neoconservatism and French Turn.—thames 15:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Iaşi pogrom

"The Iaşi pogrom of 27 June 1941 was one of the most violent pogroms in Jewish history" Is this compared with what happened in Germany or with what happened in Poland? I think the big picture tells us otherwise. "Romania also joined Germany in the invasion of the Soviet Union." I can't see what this has to do with the pogrom that took place in Iasi. It has no relevance to your article. "the death train that left Iasi for Călăraşi, southern Romania, which carried perhaps as many as 5,000 jews" Highly speculative. I don't understand why put unknown data in your facts. Maybe an official number it will be more correct? "Romanian authorities reported that 1,900 jews boarded the train and “only” 1,194 died." At least that "only" is malicious. I really think no one told that in any official way. And if the romanian authorities say 1900 jews, the most correct thing is to accept it (it's no small number). You may be right that some numbers say 2700, but the reverse is also true. The official numbers are the most correct to put in.

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What is your opinion

John Sack's "En Eye for an Eye" ? I would be interested since you seem to posses much information about such issues ? --Molobo 14:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

new page

Just wanted to alert you to this page. I don't know the history here but was surprised to find it had no proper references at all to his background, so threw in a few examples but don't have time to really work on. Bov 00:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp PR

Hello there! I remember seeing you contribute to various Holocaust-related articles. I have recently expanded the article on Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp and asked for a peer review. I thought you might want to take a look at the article and perhaps improve it or tell me what's missing. //Halibutt 00:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Nazi mysticism page

I noticed that you have tried to distinguish fact and fiction at the Nazi mysticism page. You may be interested to know that there is a mediation case about this at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-04-08 Nazi mysticism. If you would like to contribute to this, it might be valuable. Thank you! Hgilbert 16:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Message

Hi! Man you just provoked me to tell that stupid messages about the holocaust and all the thing. Of course the Holocaust was a very very said thing. Why do you really like to stop other people opinions? I only told my opinion about the page of Iasi. A page about a city must promote that city and not to blame it for the past. I lived in a communist country and I do not like to be stopped to tell my opinion no matter who you are. Dacodava 10:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Jews in Romania

You should admit the truth even if you do not like it! Some of the Jews were good Romanian citizens, but some of them, like the Jews from Transilvania were magyaryzed and faithful to Budapesta and a strong example is today Congressman Peter Ecstein Kovacs (his mother a Jewish woman and the father a Slovak!) and he is in UDMR a ethnical party of Hungarians in Romania. Also some of Jews from the east of Moldavia (Bessarabia) were soviet agents like Ana Pauker who was Foreign Minister of Romania and sign the paper to give Soviet Union the Snake Isle. So stop blaming other people for what happened in the past because the Jews had their own fault. Of course the Holocaust was a stoopid thing. Next time try to understand the point of view of the people instead of acusing them! Stop doing a false propaganda!Dacodava

Fear ?

Do you want to make from Jews another kind of super people? That is not the right solution! And I am not afraid of you and your propaganda! Dacodava

User talk:Goodoldpolonius2: Difference between revisions Add topic