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Etymology

I'm not sure about the etymology. My understanding is they were originally called Nazi-Sozi, on the pattern of the Social Democrats who were called Sozi, and that Sozi was later dropped. The nickname "Nazi" from Ignatz might have influenced this, but the mere existence of the previously existing nickname for South German/bumpkins isn't sufficient evidence of a play on words.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. There needs to be a mention of the fact that the first two syllables of "Nationalsozialist" is pronounced in German like "Nazi." While the "Ignatz" thing might have had some influence, my understanding has always been that it's from the German pronunciation, particularly when one considers the fact that the "Nationalist" part was the primary defining characteristic of Nazism, in contrast to the "Sozis" and others. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources widely claim that the term "Nazi" is related to the use of the "Sozi" short form for the German Social Democratic Party connotation rather than based on "Ignatz".--R-41 (talk) 19:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I have always interpreted this as coming from "NAtionalsoZIalismus", but that's just based on my own personal impression as a native speaker of German, not on any explicit information I ever received anywhere. It's slightly weird, but the parallelism with the (apparently earlier) word "Sozi" makes it completely logical (via "National-Sozi"). The claim here that this new meaning took over an older word with negative connotations, though I have never heard of it before, seems absolutely plausible and is consistent with the derivation. Hans Adler 09:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It's perplexing to understand why the Hebraic origins of this term are not noted. The word: "Nazi" is clearly Hebraic in origin, and is said by some to translate as: "German", although I doubt this is entirely true. It is clearly related to the word: Ashkenazi, who were said to be "German Jews", thus the translation of Nazi, by some, to mean German. However, the Ashkenazi Jews were/are Europeon Jews of historically recent conversion, and are in no way ethnically related to the Jews of biblical antiquity.

The term in Hebrew is closely related to: "Nozeri", which was a derogatory term used in the Talmud and the Midrash to denote the early Christians. In this usage Nozeri was also directly related the term Nazarenes. Considering this, the term Nazi was probably a derogatory term created and used by the Jewish community to denote the German Gentiles in the same manner as was used to denote the early Christians. It is helpful to note in research of this term that in vintage translation the Z and the S were interchangable.(nosi, nasi) I believe the term shares a common usage with the term Goy,(Goyim in plural), which essentially means non-Jew. In this sense the inclusion of the root in the name Ashkenazi would make some sense in that these Europeon Jews are not to be considered natural Jews. However, I understand that this would be considered independant research and ineligible for inclusion in a Wiki article. With this said, however, I do believe that, at minimum, the Hebraic origins merit notation in the article. Manson 23:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manson48 (talk • contribs)

Well, that's an interesting and inventive use of the word "clearly". ;-)

Seriously though, if you have any respectable sources to back up that stuff feel free to suggest them. Just be aware that different words in different languages frequently share some of the same consonants without being connected so it will take rather more than somebody pointing out "But it has an N and a Z in it, it must be connected!" to persuade us that there is an Hebraic connection to the term at all. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You are correct that this "would be considered independant (sic) research and ineligible for inclusion in a Wiki article". Your comments are therefore wasting other editors' time and are disruptive. TFD (talk)

Manson48 is clearly an anti-Semite—just look at the racist nonsense on his user page. He also repeats the racist lies that Ashkenazim are somehow not descended from Israelites. I strongly suspect he is a Nation of Islam adherent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloudariseasd (talk • contribs) 01:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Despite the claptrap above, there is no Hebrew etymological connection between "Nazi" and "Ashkenazi". In Hebrew, these words are not written in Roman characters, but in Hebrew, and are spelt and pronounced differently: נאצי with a Tsade is pronounced "Natsi", while אשקנזי with a Zayin is pronounced "Ashkenazi". The fact that both of these are commonly transcribed into English using the letter Z reflects a shortconming of English orthography, not the reality of Hebrew etymology. RolandR (talk) 00:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with RolandR. Most of this material about the supposed etymology of the word Nazi, like "Ignatius" and a link with "Ashkenazi", is rank speculation and in my opinion completely inaccurate.

Like Hans Adler, I had the strange mental assumption that Nazi comes from NAtional-SoZIalismus. But the more I think about it, the more I agree with Jack Upland about Nazi-Sozi, with the Sozi being dropped in common usage because it's cumbersome. Nazi is a quick and dirty verbal abbreviation of the word "National," which in German is pronounced "Natsional," or "Nazional." The German written letter "z" is pronounced like the letters "ts" in English. In German, the written word National, when spoken, sounds exactly the same as "Nazional." (4 syllables: Na zi o nal) The German word Sozial sounds exactly like it is written, if you use the English "z" that is in the word Nazi (3 syllables: So zi al).

"Nazi" is a German verbal abbreviation for "National," and "Sozi" is an abbreviation for "Sozial," which means "Social." The National Socialists (the German National-Sozialismus is the English National Socialism) were "Nazis", and the Socialists were "Sozis." Just think "Commies" for Communists. Nowadays the "Sozis" are the members of the Social Democratic Party, the SDP. But back in the first part of the 20th Century, there were Socialists (Sozialisten or Sozis), Communists (Kommunisten), Marxists (Marxisten), National Socialists (National-Sozialisten or Nazis), and so on. They began as ideologies, then crystallized into political parties. In the 1970s, in post-war Germany, the big political parties consisted of the Free Democrats (FDP), the Christian Democrats (CDU), the Social Democrats (SDP), and so on. I even saw a demonstration of the Communist Party in downtown Frankfurt when I was a youngster, complete with riot police and water cannon, so they were still alive as late as the 1970s. The anarchists were around too, it was the era of the Baader-Meinhof gang, which were constantly in the news when I was growing up. Rolandrlj (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Both http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Nazi and even Wiktionary http://en.wiktionary.org/Nazi implore that it's an abbreviation of Nationalsozialist. Finbob83 (talk) 07:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Mark Forsyth does not seem to be a qualified degreed scholar or historian - just a guy with a hobby that runs a blog. Therefore, his book does not qualify as a Reliable Source, and the note citing The Telegraph from which the info comes from is not a valid reference. I'll wait 48 hours before changing it to hear arguments to the contrary, then use two scholarly works to identify the roots of the term "Nazi." HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

As someone with a life-long interest in this subject and an extensive knowledge of the serious relevant literature from decades of continuous formal and informal study, I am absolutely shocked by the nonsense appearing on the page and in this discussion regarding the etymology of the term 'Nazi'. To avoid Misplaced Pages becoming a laughing-stock, I would suggest that the paragraph dealing with this be immediately deleted. The native speakers who have suggested that it is no more than an abbreviation of NAtionalsoZIalist are of course correct, and there is no more to it than that. Kim Traynor 01:22, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Close...but as I've noted previously, in German, the first 2 syllables of "Nationalsozialist" are pronounced as "Naht-Zee," just as the first two syllables of "Sozialist" are pronounced as "Soht-Zee." The idea that they are bringing the "Zee" from way down in the word "Sozialist" is peculiar and erroneous. These are really no different from how sometimes in the US, the major 2 parties are referred to as "Dems" and "Reps." But the other crazy theories are just that: Theories. (And OR) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 12:18, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I have not been following this page, but after reading the section in question, I agree it needed to be re-written due to very dubious claims. Nazi is an acronym, no more than that. Kierzek (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The word "acronym" is incorrect, for if "Nazi" were such, it would need to be written as "NaZi," or "N.A.Z.I." if it were a true "acronym." Just say the word "Nationalsozialist" out loud in German. This really is an "Occam's Razor" issue. Why on Earth would someone create such a ponderous and absurd acronym, when "Naso" would be more applicable? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever that the "Zi" comes from the middle of the word "Sozialist." (And yes, I speak German fluently.) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. "acronym": a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words; and it can be words such as radar and laser. But really there is no reason to beat this horse. Kierzek (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised this isn't easily settled by an appeal to a reliable source. Oh, it is, I think: the Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache ("Etymological dictionary of the German language") (2002) supports the Ignatz story -- not as the source of the word, but as the reason it became popular for the followers of the movement. One should think that the standard reference work for the history of the German language would be definitive here. --jpgordon 15:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

And for the record, it doesn't explicitly state it, but it seems to also back up the German pronunciation thing I've posted about, which is explicitly given as the etymology on the Wiktionary page. The "Nati" in "Nationalsozialist" is pronounced like "Naht-Zee" in German. I think a lot of the NAtionalsoZIalist "theory" is intended to highlight the "sozialist" part of the word...to make a POV point. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 15:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Jpgordon cannot be serious in suggesting that the followers of National Socialism wanted to style themselves as "backwoods Bavarian bumpkins". And as for the creation of the acronym from separate syllables, this has a long tradition in Germany, witness Stasi from STAatsSIcherheit in the GDR. Kim Traynor 01:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you inadvertently gave another example. If you say the word "Staatssicherheit" out loud in German, you will notice that the first two syllables are "Staht-See." Click on the blue arrow here to hear it spoken by a native speaker: . Also, go here and scroll to the bottom to hear a native German speaker say "National." Just listen to the German. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 01:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

You're misreading me, Kim, but I guess I was ambiguous. "The reason it became popular for referring to followers of the movement" would have been more clear. I don't have the etymological dictionary at hand; otherwise I'd just quote it directly. --jpgordon 06:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

You know...I hadn't thought of it until just now, but maybe the "Ignatz" thing was a precursor to the "Teabagger" controversy that occurred a couple years ago in the USA, where members of the Tea Party called themselves that, or variations of it, even though it had a completely different slang connotation. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 12:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Trust me to give Bryon an example that failed to persuade! (They didn't say Statsi, did they?) Can we try another? The Nationalpolitische Lehranstalt was abbreviated to Napola. Here you can see, especially from the final 'a', that such acronyms can be created quite randomly as long as the constituent letters are in the right sequence. Kim Traynor 13:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Kim for my and his reasons stated above. It also seems the discussion is heading into speculation at this point, Bryon. One thing is for sure the article needs ce and clean up work, outside of this issue herein. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm always learnt nazi = national socialism. I don't know if I helped you...--Bobybarman34 (talk) 15:44, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Martin Luther's influence

I imagine someone coming to this page without any prior knowledge of the subject, and conclude that its information on Martin Luther is seriously misleading. Luther’s influence is greatly overstated. It almost seems as if the section Church and State has been written from a Catholic point of view (why does it suddenly jump from discussion of Nazi attitudes to religion to Bormann’s view of the role of priests in wartime Occupied Poland?). If one were to undertake a survey of the Nazi elite and, in particular, its concentration camp management, one would find that Bavarian and Austrian anti-Semites from the Catholic ‘Jewish deicide’ tradition, not the Lutheran, were heavily over-represented. Since Shirer’s ‘The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’, there has always been a ‘Luther to Hitler’ school of history which has regarded the 16th-century Protestant reformer as a direct anti-Semitic precursor of the Nazi leader. Not without reason. It seems obvious that Luther’s anti-Semitic rant in his old age must have had some sort of a legacy, but I wouldn’t think it possible to measure its extent. Lucy Dawidowicz in her ‘The War Against The Jews’, thought that Luther had influenced modern anti-Semitism, and I wouldn’t argue with her statement that it is easy to draw a line between the two. However, intellectual history is by its nature highly conjectural and I would need to be convinced that Luther’s tirade against the Jews had been in some way institutionalised rather than just another example of the pan-European Christian rejection of Jewish integration down the centuries. Many commentators agree that Lutheranism may be responsible for an attitude of servility among German Protestants towards political authority in the past, but whether modern anti-Semitism can be directly attributed to religious (i.e. not racial) outpourings in the 16th century is less certain. Modern anti-Semitism, post-1789, had its roots in the 19th century as Jews became increasingly identified with capitalism (and later Socialism and Communism). Of course, that clearly built on the legacy of medieval anti-Semitism, but racial anti-Semitism was essentially a modern phenomenon created by new beliefs from the biological sciences. Nazis like Hitler and Streicher, and Lutherans like Sasse, revived Luther’s anti-Semitism in order to legitimate their own anti-Semitism historically by linking it to that of the past and resurrect or fortify the old prejudices. And in the period of the War of Liberation against Napoleon there was clearly a link between the notion of being a ‘German (Lutheran) Christian’ and not being a Jew, which implanted the widespread belief that Jews could not be part of German-Christian society. However, Professor MacCulloch’s idea that Luther’s call in the 16th century for the Jews to be driven out of their synagogues and banished was a blueprint for Kristallnacht strikes me as nothing short of ludicrous – as if historical circumstances four centuries apart have no weight. It is a churchman’s exaggerated view of the importance of intellectual history which I believe few serious historians would entertain. Not even Daniel Goldhagen went that far. Luther’s anti-Semitism was not ‘eliminationist’. Luther wrote, “What good can we do the Jews when we constrain them, malign them, and hate them as dogs? When we deny them work and force them to usury, how can that help? We should use towards the Jews not the pope’s but Christ’s law of love. If some are stiff-necked, what does that matter? We are not all good Christians.” The Church and State section of this article should be re-written by someone who is more competent in the subject. In the meantime, anyone wishing to explore the roots of modern anti-Semitism should consult Peter Pulzer’s ‘The Rise of Political Anti-Semitism in Germany and Austria’, London 1988. Kim Traynor (talk) 17:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

A footnote quotes an article by Johannes Wallmann in the Lutheran Quarterly (1987) saying, "The assertion that Luther's expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion." Do you have any sources that question this statement about prevailing opinion? TFD (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Problems: 1. The Roman Catholic Church pre-Luther was anti-Semitic, and 2. The base of the Nazi movement was in the Roman Catholic areas of Germany. Cites for both statements are available if you doubt them. Note also the ongoing concerns in the Jewish community about Pius XII and his apparent acceptance of anti-Semitism, John Cornwell, a historian of religious affairs, cites secret Vatican files, depositions and the pope's own files to support his conclusions in "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII." is clear on this, and does not blame Luther for Pius XII's actions. Also A LONG HISTORY OF ANTI-SEMITISM, The Boston Globe (Boston, MA), July 4, 2005 contains: However, when Protestantism arose out of Catholicism; the one thing it did not reject from the parent religion was its anti-Semitism. Together, they tilled the soil for centuries in which the seeds of the Holocaust took root. It was no accident, nor an aberration of history, that the genocidal ideas and finally the actions of Hitler had so much cooperation throughout Europe. which is substantially contrary to the cite you use. Also consider New Testament's anti-Semitism not Holocaust trigger: Historians ponder Nazi genocide.(A), The Washington Times (Washington, DC), September 20, 1998 | Witham, Larry which has: Generations of negative Christian attitudes toward Jews set the stage, they said, but the Nazi program to eliminate Jews was "unpredictable" and driven by statism, eugenics, racism and rivalry with Jews in the German middle class. And further Martin Luther and German anti-Semitism: Graham Noble illustrates Luther's anti-Jewish views and distinguishes them from those of the Nazis. (The Unpredictable Past), History Review, March 1, 2002 | Noble, Graham contains: In early modern Europe, anti-Semitism was widespread. Jews were burned at the stake for a variety of imagined crimes, including the desecration of churches, infanticide and ritual castration. They were blamed for spreading plague and poisoning wells and were commonly reviled as lazy parasites. Frederick's policy in Saxony was part of a series of similar banishments, including Ferdinand's and Isabella's expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, which drove them further and further east in search of new homes. The intolerance of the medieval Christian Church had formed an unholy alliance with secular anti-Semites. Those who saw the Jews as heretics and Christ-killers found ready support amongst others who were suspicious of these curious, self-contained outsiders, whose speech and dress appeared so odd, and whose success in business was so enviable. All of which is somewhat in countervention to your assertion. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that Luther influenced German anti-Semitism. I am not disputing that. I am saying that this article is skewed wrongly in implying that his anti-Semitism was the basis of Nazi anti-Semitism. I agree with Wallmann if he says that Luther is not directly relevant to anti-Semitism in the 18th and 19th centuries (I assume he argued against 'the prevailing opinion'). Re Collect’s comment: I don’t doubt your first two statements as you suggest. They agree with what I was saying, that Nazi anti-Semitism is more a South German-Austrian phenomenon. The Lutheran anti-Semitic tradition of North Germany provided it with fertile ground on which to play on latent and blatant prejudices. I feel no disagreement with your following statements, but don’t see why you think they countervene my statement (or are you referring to the comment by The Four Deuces?). I quoted Luther to show his anti-Semitism was not ‘eliminationist’, as was later racial anti-Semitism. Kim Traynor (talk) 20:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

The TFD's quote tells about "continuity" between between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism. This is much softer statement than the thesis that Lutheran anti-Semitism was the basis of anti-Semitism. Therefore, I don't see any contradiction here. The only questionable thesis is the idea that, since Roman Catholicism was also anti-Semitic, we cannot draw connection between Luther and Nazism. I see no logic here.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

And I suppose you can tell me why Luther has such an influence on the Roman Catholic areas of Germany? In fact, where the Nazi base was? Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit lost. Dear Collect, who do you mean when you say 'you'? I couldn't work out from your first comment whether you were referring to my contribution or that of The Four Deuces'. Does your latest 'you' refer to Paul Siebert? I take it we agree that the Catholic anti-Semitic tradition is more relevant to understanding Nazi anti-Semitism than Luther's? Kim Traynor (talk) 22:29, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

My first comments were about TFD's poorly chosen "claims." The last one just above was with regard to Paul's statement that we cannot connect Luther and Nazism - which seems an odd comment since the primary base was in quite non-Lutheran areas of Germany <g>. I trust you noted the sources I provided above (in agreement with you) - that the Catholic basis for anti-Semitism seems quite important, contrary to TFD's assertions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I would ask Paul Siebert why it is that the article stresses the Luther link to Nazi anti-Semitism, but ignores the long Catholic tradition of the same which is more relevant in the biographies of leading Nazis and SS personnel, such as Adolf Hitler, Josef Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Adolf Eichmann, Hans Frank, Rudolf Höss, Franz Stangl, Otto Globocnik, Amon Goeth, Josef Mengele etc.? Schleicher came from the Protestant tradition, which is why he would seize on Luther as providing an historical pedigree for his extreme views. Kim Traynor (talk) 23:02, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Collect for the clarification. I thought initially that you were addressing me in your comments, but came to realise that we were saying the same thing. Kim Traynor (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Collect, whether you lack basic reading comprehension or are being deliberately obtuse, your continued misrepresentation of other editors' statements is very annoying and a disservice to other editors. Please stop per WP:DE, and contribute in a more positive fashion. TFD (talk) 02:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

WOW! Talk aboout attacking editors! You specifically cited a source as "prevailing opinion" that Luther was the one who is behind modern anti-Semitism (to be precise:

The assertion that Luther's expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion

with your exact comment : Do you have any sources that question this statement about prevailing opinion?

I provided substantial sources (note Paul's and Kim's comments thereon) which clearly countered your assertion about prevailing opinion and your response is to accuse me of being obtuse? That my response misrepresented your clear post? Do you really wanna go to AN/I on this sort of continued attack, TFD? Please retract all of those attacks you pepper this page with. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Collect, I didn't write that we cannot connect Luther with Nazism. I wrote that if there is a connection between Catholicism and Nazism, that does not exclude a possibility of similar connection between Luther and Nazism. Those two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.
Regarding the linkage between Lutheran Christians and Nazism, I found the following.

1. Although Catholics actively participated in early Nazi movement in Bavaria, after early 1924 it became increasingly difficult to reconcile Catholicism with participation in Nazi movement (Source: Derek Hastings. How "Catholic" Was the Early Nazi Movement? Religion, Race, and Culture in Munich, 1919-1924 Central European History, Vol. 36, No. 3 (2003), pp. 383-433. )
2. Catholic areas tended, even before the Nazis' first national electoral breakthrough in 1930, to be considerably less susceptible to the Nazi appeal than were Protestant regions. (Sources: Hastings, op. citJiirgen Falter, Hitlers W'dhler (Munich, 1991), esp. 169-93. But see also Richard Hamilton, Who Votedfor Hitler? (Princeton, 1982), 38-43, 382-85; Thomas Childers, The Nazi Voter: The Social Foundations of Fascism in Germany, 1919-1933 (Chapel Hill, 1983), 112-18, 188-91, 258-61.)
3. Works by Luther are among the most anti-Semitic documents ever composed, rivalling in many instances the worst of the literature which came out of Nazi Germany.(Source: John T. Pawlikowski. Martin Luther and Judaism: Paths Towards Theological Reconciliation. Journal of the American Academy of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 4 (Dec., 1975), pp. 681-693
4. "...adherents of the pro-Nazi, Protestant movement known as the "German Christians" (Deutsche Christen) proudly cited Luther as a precursor of their hatred toward Jews and Judaism. They quoted his essay, "Against the Jews and Their Lies," and presented him as a champion of antisemitism.12 Any Catholics aware of the sharpness of Luther's language against their own religious institutions would be unlikely to accept his antagonism toward Jews as their model." (Source: Doris L. Bergen. Catholics, Protestants, and Christian Antisemitism in Nazi Germany. Central European History, Vol. 27, No. 3 (1994), pp. 329-348)
5. Interestingly, both Catholics and Lutherans played Jewish card to fight each other: the latter declared that Catholics, like Jews are internationalists, whereas Lutherans themselves are true Germans; in response, Catholics declared that Lutheran anti-Catholicism was inspired by Jews... (Bergen. Op. Cit.)

I found plenty of other sources, but I haven't read them all yet. If you find my above arguments not fully convincing, I believe I can provide more.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Seems to me Paul that you may be engaging in OR synthesis. I'm sure I could find sources that suggest paganism, atheism or darwinism played a significant role too. However, is it mere coincidence that Catholic Spain and Italy were fascist during that period, while protestant Britain, Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark remained democratic? --Nug (talk) 03:10, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The term "original research" (OR) is used on Misplaced Pages to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. In connection to that, could you Martin please explain me for which of the above statement no no reliable, published sources exist? --Paul Siebert (talk) 03:15, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I apologise, I meant synthesis, as you appear to using several sources each contributing an idea and synthesising it into a notion that Lutheranism was of similar importance as Catholicism in shaping the world view of the Nazis. Or have I misunderstood your argument? --Nug (talk) 03:57, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I didn't claim that Lutheranism was of similar importance as Catholicism in shaping the world view of the Nazis. My point was that the evidences provided on this talk page do not allow us to speak that Catholicism was equally or more important. --Paul Siebert (talk) 14:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Paul, I think German Catholic resistance to the Nazis in terms of support for the party and voting in elections is well known, but that's not the point at issue here. I recognise Luther's significant part in the history of anti-Semitism, but would argue that it is more valid for the North German states, especially Bismarck's Prussia, than the Nazi movement which originated in Bavaria and incorporated the Austrian-German nationalist tradition, with its long history of virulent anti-Semitism, into the Reich. The article does not reflect this. I was also arguing that it is dubious to maintain that Luther's pronouncement on the Jews in the 16th century explains Nazi actions on Kristallnacht in the 20th century, even though it's easy to draw a direct line between the anti-Semitism of both. There may be a continuity, but I would argue that modern anti-Semitism simply drew upon Luther to give itself a historical and 'intellectual' legitimacy. The Nazis were masters of this method. It's the old chicken and egg argument, isn't it? Did Hitler think as he did because of Richard Wagner's influence, or did he worship Wagner because he thought like Wagner? Which would you choose as the more historical approach for explaining the connection? The compromise is of course to accept both as valid. But, equally so? In the case of Luther, four centuries before Hitler, I'd suggest the traffic is more one-way, backwards in time rather than forwards as the article implies. We're having an interesting scholarly disputation, but the point is, will someone change the Church and State section of this article? I don't think I'm competent to do so, but I recognise the need. I have seen Nazi ideology likened many times to a religion, but this article states that Hitler expanded his views into a religious doctrine. Where's the evidence for that? I take it that the mention of 'Hitlerian theology' is a reference to German Lutheran churches supporting or accommodating Nazism. I've never thought of Hitler as a theologian before, so this is breaking new ground for me. Kim Traynor (talk) 08:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not an expert in this subject, but upon reading some sources I can conclude the following:

1. Initially (before 1923) Nazi party grew on primarily Catholic sole.
2. After 1924 the tension started to grow between Catholocosm and Nazi movement.
3. Germany was mostly a Lutheran country, and Nazism got more support in Lutheran regions than in Catholic ones.
4. Lutheran Nazi cited Luther as an ideological father of Nazism.
5. Nazism was, by and large, a secular movement, and its anti-Christian nature became more prominent with time.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:37, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Lots of assertions. I can not verify that Lutherans were more apt to be Nazis or vote for Nazis than were Catholics. There were, however, significantly more Roman Catholics than Lutherans in Germany, so point 3 is errant. Collect (talk) 14:49, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The lack of your ability to do something is not an argument. The sources provided by me #2 demonstrate the Catholics were less susceptible Nazi appeals that the Lutherans (which automatically means that the Lutherans were more susceptible). And, please, do not mix current demographic data with 1920s situation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Try to note that Lutherans counted all Germans in some areas - as they were a "state church" and your count is like counting all Englishmen as CofE. And note also the strong anti-Semitism in France (not very Lutheran) and in Poland (also not very Lutheran). The simple fact is that the European anti-Semitism antedated Luther, and, in fact, he was more "moderate" in his words than other Catholic groups were. As for the 1933 election see and show me where all the Nazi losses in Catholic areas were <g>. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Lots of assertions. I can not verify that Lutherans were more apt to be Nazis or vote for Nazis than were Catholics. There were, however, significantly more practicing Roman Catholics than practicing Lutherans in Germany, so point 3 is errant. Collect (talk) 14:49, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

(od) 1928 elections: The Social Democratic Party (SDP) won the election in Germany in 1928 with 29,8 per cent of the votes. The party had its power base in Northern and central Germany, mostly populated with Lutheran Christians. In the Catholic west and south, the voters chose the Bayerische Volkspartei (BVP) or the Centrum Party. Neither Lutherans nor Catholics voted for the Nazis in 1928. In 1933, Munich (heavily Catholic) was a Nazi stronghold with 43% of the vote. . There are no stats on religious breakdown of the vote. Hope this corrects any misapprehensions. Collect (talk) 15:20, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the discussion is now barking up the wrong tree. Studies of why voters voted Nazi show that other factors were more important than religious affiliation. For example, the Nazi vote in elections on their way to power was strongest in border areas affected by the Versailles Treaty; so Protestant East Prussia was solidly Nazi, but so was Catholic Silesia. I expect unemployment was a similarly decisive factor, affecting the big industrial (i.e. predominantly Lutheran, north German) cities more than the more agricultural South. Hitler didn't make big public speeches about anti-Jewish measures to capture votes; he made anti-Versailles and regeneration of Germany speeches, leaving others to do the occasional 'Jew-baiting' in public (notably Goebbels; Streicher was a party animal preaching more to the converted). Fear of Communism was another of his main themes and that would have appealed to both the Protestant and the Catholic middle classes. I think it's wrong to assume that Germans voted for anti-Semitism. That was part of the overall package that came gradually more into play after the Nazis were in power. Kim Traynor (talk) 19:04, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Let's not forget that one of the key ideologues of the Nazi movement was the Baltic German Alfred Rosenberg and being a true anti-semite he rejected both Catholic or Lutheran beliefs and tenets as tainted by Jews. Goebbels held a dim view of Luther stating: "Luther does not give us much today. He did not measure up to the highest standard … Catholicism and Protestantism are both rotten. Luther was the first religious liberal". So while Luther has his supporters and detractors within the Nazi movement, all held Jesus to be the "slim, tall, blond" aryan saviour of the Germanic people, surely we do not write about the influence of Jesus on the Nazi party do we? The Nazis hijacked many historical figures like Luther and symbols like the swastika to package and sell their ideology to the people. --Nug (talk) 21:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Precisely! Kim Traynor (talk) 22:08, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

As I already wrote, I agree that Nazism was, by and large, a secular ideology (with some elements of paganism). I also think that we should separate two issues: (i) the relative role of Lutheran and Catholic ideology in formation of Nazism, and (ii) relative contribution of the Lutherans and the Catholics into Nazi movement. These two things are not necessarily interconnected. Therefore, I think we need to return to discussion of what concrete theses should be added to / removed from the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Well I think at issue here is the influence of Martin Luther himself, rather than the two issues you identified, that is subject of the current scholarly debate. A well sourced summary of this scholar's debate over what influence, if any, Luther's personal views had on the Nazis is contained in the article on him, which I will quote for convenience:

"At the heart of scholars' debate about Luther's influence is whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists. Some scholars see Luther's influence as limited, and the Nazis' use of his work as opportunistic. Biographer Martin Brecht points out that "There is a world of difference between his belief in salvation and a racial ideology. Nevertheless, his misguided agitation had the evil result that Luther fatefully became one of the 'church fathers' of anti-Semitism and thus provided material for the modern hatred of the Jews, cloaking it with the authority of the Reformer." Johannes Wallmann argues that Luther's writings against the Jews were largely ignored in the 18th and 19th centuries, and that there was no continuity between Luther's thought and Nazi ideology. Uwe Siemon-Netto agreed, arguing that it was because the Nazis were already anti-Semites that they revived Luther's work. Hans J. Hillerbrand agreed that to focus on Luther was to adopt an essentially ahistorical perspective of Nazi antisemitism that ignored other contributory factors in German history. "

I might add that Martin Luther was raised and educated as a Catholic, to what degree this early exposure to Catholic thought influenced his anti-semitic views in his twilight years will probably be never known. But I am inclined to think the Nazis were already anti-Semites who later opportunistically revived Luther's anti-semitic writings to give a veneer of religious authority to their genocidal policies. As the party originated in Catholic Bavaria I don't think those original party members of Catholic background would have been aware of Luther's writings in detail. Recall that the Nazis adopted the title "National Socialist Workers Party" to appeal to the German working class, so why not adopt Martin Luther in an attempt to appeal to German Christians? --Nug (talk) 09:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

All good points being made. Would one of you two gentlemen be brave enough to have a go at rewriting the section? Kim Traynor (talk) 10:17, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I still cannot understand what concrete changes do you propose.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

(od) I suspect the image of Luther's text is overkill, as are such claims as Simultaneously, the Nazis integrated to Nazism the community elements of Lutheranism, Regarding the persecution of Jews, the contemporary, historical perspective is that in the period between the Protestant Reformation and the Holocaust, Martin Luther's treatise On the Jews and their Lies (1543), exercised a major and persistent intellectual influence upon the German practice of anti-Semitism against Jewish citizens. The Nazis publicly displayed an original of On the Jews and their Lies during the annual Nuremberg rallies, and the city also presented a first edition of it to Julius Streicher, the editor of Der Stürmer, which described Luther's treatise as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published and Nonetheless, Prof. Diarmaid MacCulloch said that On the Jews and Their Lies was the blueprint for Kristallnacht. etc. which appear to quite overemphasise current views on how little Luther influenced Nazism and Hitler at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:06, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

This paragraph is just a small fragment from the large "Church and state" section. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that the article in its present form blames primarily Luther. The text is well sourced, and I found some sources that additionally support some claims from the cited paragraph. I think, the only thing we can do is to explain that, although Luther's writing are seen by some authors as the bluepring for Kristallnacht, the Lutherans themselves, as well as Catholics, were seen with suspect by Nazi leadership, so Nazism cannot be seen as a continuation and development of the Lutheran tradition.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:31, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

And material which is given undue weight should be excised - unless you wish one wishes others to add some of the forty-plus sources making counterclaims. The article overemphasises Luther - and it appears you grant that. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Please, comment on contributions, not contributors.

Since the undue weight problem was raised by you, a burden of proof is on you do demonstrate the undue weight is given to the linkage between Luther and Nazism. Please, provide your evidences, andn then we will continue.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I removed what you consider a personal attack, and the rest remains true. We have several editors in agreement on the undue weight at this point. And one editor finding it not undue weight. Enough to likely assert consensus if we tallied them up. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:56, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE is defined not by vote counting. I myself have no opinion on whether we can speak about undue weight or not in this concrete case. The paragraph cited by you is well sourced, so, if you believe the sources cited there are not mainstream, please, demonstrate that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

(od)Iterating: Problems: 1. The Roman Catholic Church pre-Luther was anti-Semitic, and 2. The base of the Nazi movement was in the Roman Catholic areas of Germany. Cites for both statements are available if you doubt them. Note also the ongoing concerns in the Jewish community about Pius XII and his apparent acceptance of anti-Semitism, John Cornwell, a historian of religious affairs, cites secret Vatican files, depositions and the pope's own files to support his conclusions in "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII." is clear on this, and does not blame Luther for Pius XII's actions. Also A LONG HISTORY OF ANTI-SEMITISM, The Boston Globe (Boston, MA), July 4, 2005 contains: However, when Protestantism arose out of Catholicism; the one thing it did not reject from the parent religion was its anti-Semitism. Together, they tilled the soil for centuries in which the seeds of the Holocaust took root. It was no accident, nor an aberration of history, that the genocidal ideas and finally the actions of Hitler had so much cooperation throughout Europe. which is substantially contrary to the cite you use. Also consider New Testament's anti-Semitism not Holocaust trigger: Historians ponder Nazi genocide.(A), The Washington Times (Washington, DC), September 20, 1998 | Witham, Larry which has: Generations of negative Christian attitudes toward Jews set the stage, they said, but the Nazi program to eliminate Jews was "unpredictable" and driven by statism, eugenics, racism and rivalry with Jews in the German middle class. And further Martin Luther and German anti-Semitism: Graham Noble illustrates Luther's anti-Jewish views and distinguishes them from those of the Nazis. (The Unpredictable Past), History Review, March 1, 2002 | Noble, Graham contains: In early modern Europe, anti-Semitism was widespread. Jews were burned at the stake for a variety of imagined crimes, including the desecration of churches, infanticide and ritual castration. They were blamed for spreading plague and poisoning wells and were commonly reviled as lazy parasites. Frederick's policy in Saxony was part of a series of similar banishments, including Ferdinand's and Isabella's expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, which drove them further and further east in search of new homes. The intolerance of the medieval Christian Church had formed an unholy alliance with secular anti-Semites. Those who saw the Jews as heretics and Christ-killers found ready support amongst others who were suspicious of these curious, self-contained outsiders, whose speech and dress appeared so odd, and whose success in business was so enviable. All of which is somewhat in countervention to your assertion. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

And

I suspect the image of Luther's text is overkill, as are such claims as Simultaneously, the Nazis integrated to Nazism the community elements of Lutheranism, Regarding the persecution of Jews, the contemporary, historical perspective is that in the period between the Protestant Reformation and the Holocaust, Martin Luther's treatise On the Jews and their Lies (1543), exercised a major and persistent intellectual influence upon the German practice of anti-Semitism against Jewish citizens. The Nazis publicly displayed an original of On the Jews and their Lies during the annual Nuremberg rallies, and the city also presented a first edition of it to Julius Streicher, the editor of Der Stürmer, which described Luther's treatise as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published and Nonetheless, Prof. Diarmaid MacCulloch said that On the Jews and Their Lies was the blueprint for Kristallnacht. etc. which appear to quite overemphasise current views on how little Luther influenced Nazism and Hitler at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:06, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Show some of the mainstream sources which are not in accord with the curent material in the article. Collect (talk) 19:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been bold and made some updates taking onboard comments here. --Nug (talk) 21:17, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Not bad, although the statement "Scholars debate the extent of Luther's influence and whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists" is unsourced. I think we need a source that confirms that there are ongoing debates over this issue.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a definite improvement, Nug. Now I think the section's weakest point is the first paragraph, much of which seems unsabstantiated. It should really start with a Hitler quotation or a historian's quotation showing Nazi contempt for conventional religion as the starting point. I'd also like to know what "the community elements of Lutheranism, from its organic pagan past" actually means and to what it refers. Kim Traynor (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

No one here defended that sentence at all - I just removed it. Besides, I have no idea just what it means <g>. Collect (talk) 21:45, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

For your convenience, below is a quote from the source used by me. I'll remove it after several days.

Steigmann-Gall's revision of Nazi views of Christianity emphasizes especially the notion of "positive Christianity," adopted under Point 24 of the NSDAP Party Program (1920) as the official standpoint of the party. This was not merely a political ploy and an ad hoc concoction of ideas aimed at securing votes, but a religious system possessing an inner logic and reflecting the sincere convictions of its proponents. Summarized by Steigmann-Gall as "a syncretic mix of the social and the economic tenets of confessional Lutheranism and the doctrine and ecclesiology of liberal Protestantism," positive Christianity encapsulated a nationalist and racist theology that appropriated Jesus as the original Aryan socialist and anti-Semite, proposed to bridge the long-standing confessional divide in Germany in favor of a single Reich Church, and tended to define itself in opposition to "negative Christianity": Christianity as it actually materialized in history, hijacked by Satan dwelling in Jerusalem, Rome, and finally, in the Marxist disguise, in Moscow as well. If the positive Christians within the NSDAP rejected Christianity, then it was only the historical kind, and only in order to excavate from underneathi ts edifice the authentic and uncorrupted Christianity: their own.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Then use what the source says and not what the prior claim was -- which does not seem congruent with the source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

request

Text of the 22 pages of Babik given as a cite for the claim of Lutheranism and its "organic pagan past" as being a basis for Nazism. Thanks. Collect (talk) 01:21, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I did not understand your point. What do you mean?--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:02, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I have full access to this paper, which is a critique by Babik of a book written by revisionist historian Richard Steigmann-Gall. According to Babik, Steigmann-Gall "challenged the conventional wisdom that Nazism was either non-christian or anti-christian" and "rejected the increasingly popular interpretation of Nazism as a secular or political religion". Steigmann-Gall view, according to Babik, is that there is a high degree to which Protestantism was central to Nazi self-understanding with the top Nazis comprehending their actions in Christian terms and "as a mission completing the work of the reformation in germany". Babik then proceeds to criticise Steigmann-Gall's line of thought beginning with the following questions: "Is Steigmann-Gall’s understanding of the implications of his portrayal of Nazism correct? Is his rejection of the secularization thesis valid? Does his representation of Nazism as a Protestant movement necessarily undermine the interpretation of Nazism as a secular religion?" Babik answers these questions in the following terms:

"In the following article I suggest that while Steigmann-gall’s revision of Nazi conceptions of christianity represents a welcome addition to accounts of Nazism as a form of neo-paganism, his claim concerning the implications of this revision for the interpretation of Nazism as a secular religion is deeply problematic. His dismissal of the secular religion approach stands on an untenably narrow conception of secularization as a tool of historical understanding. In other words, I take issue not with Steigmann-gall’s depiction of Nazism as a Protestant movement, but with the model of secular religion against which he subsequently evaluates it. This model ignores the finer points of secularization theory; it represents only a truncated version of the much more rigorous model of secularization developed in the debate between Karl Löwith and Hans Blumenberg, respectively the main proponent and the main critic of the secularization thesis in the area of historical theory."

Babik goes as far as saying that due to Steigmann-Gall's poor understanding of the secularization thesis, his theory of Protestant Nazism actually confirms the interpretation of Nazism as a secular religion:

"In light of the Löwith–Blumenberg debate, Steigmann-Gall’s revision of Nazism as a Protestant movement thus does not undermine the interpretation of Nazism as a secular religion, but tends to make this interpretation more plausible. ..... By demonstrating that Nazism had Christian content, Steigmann-Gall has unwittingly met the test of secular religion proposed by secularization theory’s most rigorous critic. If Steigmann-Gall reaches the opposite conclusion and sees Protestant Nazism as running counter to the secular religion approach, this is because he lacks more thorough awareness of secularization theory. Insofar as he extracts his understanding of secularization from contemporary political religion historiography on Nazism, the lack of awareness is more extensive."

So it is clear from this paper that the conventional view is that Nazism is either non-Christian or anti-Christian, and the view that Nazism is a radical extension of Protestantism is a revisionist view point (i.e. minority POV) of a historian with a poor understanding of secularization. I am surprised that Paul has overlooked the substance of this paper and instead used it as a source to text in the article that is written as a mainstream viewpoint, when in actual fact it is a flawed minority POV. --Nug (talk) 09:48, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

With respect, that is now a very complicated and intellectually formidable lead-in to the Church and State section, rather than an introductory A, B, C statement. For someone new to the subject it would be better if the Nazis' basic position on religion were stated first, before going deeper into the subject. Kim Traynor (talk) 16:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

The source used is not easily reduced to platitudes <g>, as the prior poorly worded claims indicated. I soght to salvage the source, and not to savage its meaning. Perhaps better to omit the mass of quite convoluted reasoning present in that source? Collect (talk) 19:56, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Kim, I'd have a go myself but am a bit busy at the moment, perhaps you could try your hand at drafting a suitable explanation of the Nazis' basic position on religion. --Nug (talk) 20:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping you wouldn't say that. I'll have a rummage around some sources and see if I can come up with something sensible on this tricky subject. Kim Traynor (talk) 00:15, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Upon reading the literature I found a lot of new information and facts I was not aware of. It is a very interesting reading, and I need some time to read and summarise it. In connection to that, I take a short break and hope to come back with new version of the text.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I have a draft of sorts, but it reads poorly at present. It's quite difficult to find over-arching statements that can be individually referenced. Kim Traynor (talk) 22:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Give it a go and post at least an outline here, I'm sure with many heads we can formulate something. --Nug (talk) 23:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Whether the Nazis were Protestant, Catholic or pagan is irrelevant to whether or not their anti-Semitism developed from Luther's views. TFD (talk) 00:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel a bit like an embarassed schoolboy being asked to show his sub-standard work to the class. I have a skeletal version of what could be an explanation of the Nazi-churches relationship, but even if I work this up to a more acceptable standard, the next hurdle would be how to integrate it with what already exists on the page. I hope you can read it despite the presence of pointers to my references.

The 24th point of the Nazi Party Programme of 1920 guaranteed freedom for all religious denominations not inimical to the State and endorsed “Positive Christianity” to combat “the Jewish-materialist spirit”. J Noakes and G Pridham, Documents on Nazism, 1919-1945, London 1974

The anti-communism of the Catholic Church and its priority of self-survival eased accommodation with the regime in 1933. Relations between the Nazi state and the Catholic Church were regulated by the Concordat signed in July of that year, an agreement upheld by both parties despite breaches criticized in 1937 in Pius XI’s encyclical ‘Mit brennender Sorge’. Hildebrandt Lutheran traditions of obedience to state authority and German patriotism, together with anti-Communism, resulted in a more enthusiastic reception of Nazi beliefs by the Protestant churches. Remak comments on the “misunderstanding of true aims” of Nazism by most church members

Despite their fundamental incompatibility, Snyder the Nazi Party and the mainstream churches co-existed uneasily throughout the period of the Third Reich. The Nazis avoided direct public attacks on the churches. There was no equivalent of Bismarck’s Kulturkampf. Hitler respected the power of the Catholic Church and was wary of the negative effect any open confrontation might have on the German public. Remak. Although privately expressing his hatred of Christianity Snyder p.304, Hitler saw the churches as embodying a socially conservative element that could not be replaced by party ideology. TT He was prepared to tolerate them as long as they recognised the State as master TT 143 and did not interfere in its affairs.

Bormann, who represented the more aggressively anti-Christian element in the Party, thought Hitler had always been religious p.203 While he rejected Christianity with its Jewish origins as a "big lie", TT Hitler employed religious vocabulary in his everyday conversation, often invoking the Lord and the Almighty in his public speaking.

Although he agreed with Bormann that National Socialism and Christianity were incompatible 145, Hitler deliberately held aloof from interfering in church affairs p.122, saying he had no wish to promote atheism p.6 which was associated with Bolshevism. He hoped for the eventual elimination of the churches, expecting the "disease of Christianity" TT 343 to die a natural death. Table Talk p.59

Hoping to maintain good relations with the churches to secure their support, he forbade Goebbels to leave the Church 340 and intended to remain Catholic himself. Speer p.95 Speer reported Hitler as believing that the churches would adapt to the Nazi state over time.

Dissent occurred in both mainstream churches, especially on the question of euthanasia. Fischer In the case of the Catholic Church this was expressed in individual acts of disobedience by priests and bishops who were punished by internment in concentration camps. Remak Goebbels retaliated by orchestrating occasional smear campaigns in the press against priests and monks. Fischer Crucifixes were removed from schools and hospitals. Goebbels diary

Dissent expressed itself in a more organised form in the Protestant churches. Fearing that the Nazis posed a threat to religion, many resisted Nazification by establishing the Confessing Church as a counterweight to the pro-Nazi element styling themselves ‘German Christians’. In 1937 800 members of the Confessing Church were arrested. Hildebrandt

The outbreak of war saw an end to official harassment of the churches. Snyder While fanatics like Bormann continued to press for a campaign against the churches (Kirchenkampf), Hitler wanted this postponed until after the war. Speer p.123; Goebbels p.163 He recognised the value of traditional religion in maintaining morale in the armed forces and providing solace to the bereaved families of soldiers killed in action. Both mainstream churches continued to provide chaplains to the armed forces and offered prayers for the Führer from their pulpits. Remak Speer’s architectural plans for the new Berlin included the rebuilding of churches destroyed by bombing. Speer 177

By the war’s end the relationship between the Nazi state and the churches was still “a major unresolved issue” Remak.

The American historian Klaus Fischer has described the moral failure of the churches to resist Hitler as an “institutional failure of nerve”, while acknowledging that “few believers realized that their Christian faith was fundamentally at odds with Nazi ideology. p.359.

Actually that's not bad at all, it seems like a good summary. I've added some subsections within the "Church and State" section, I'd be inclined to replace every thing above the "Thule society" subsection with your text, then anything salvageable form the old to be added in where appropriate. --Nug (talk) 04:44, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind comment. Not having to merge the above with existing text would certainly make things a lot easier. I'll find time this weekend to polish the draft. I'm still hunting for a source I know exists where Hitler says, either to Bormann or Goebbels, that he can't see what it would achieve to prevent the mother of a soldier killed in action seeking comfort by going to church. This has been an interesting exercise for me in revealing how reluctant H was to move egainst the churches (I'll wager that has something to do with his mother's devoutness); it also explains how lay members of churches could believe that, with the notable exceptions of euthanasia and anti-Semitic measures, there was no basic incompatability between their beliefs and patriotic support of the regime. Kim Traynor (talk) 07:29, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Right Nug, I've had a go at rewriting the section. The source base is currently quite narrow, but I'll see if I can expand it. I'm mindful that the overall article is already too long for Misplaced Pages, so I've tried to keep the points to a minimum. I'm assuming more detail on aspects like neo-paganism, the substitution of Christian symbols and rites, can be found on linked pages. I might just add one more point about how the 19thC, e.g. Wagner, had paved the way ideologically for the German Christians by remoulding the Judaic Jesus meek and mild into an 'Aryan' warrior. Kim Traynor (talk)

I've now added the Wagner point, but it may be too specific to fit in with the general tone of the section, so I won't be surprised if it is reverted. More seriously, if you look below you'll see someone has raised a serious objection to using Trevor-Roper's Hitler's Table Talk as a reference. If the objection is sustainable, I think several WP pages will be affected. It's really up to others now to build on the basis I've laid by modifying and improving the section I hope that it is more comprehensible and comprehensive than what went before. Kim Traynor (talk) 01:23, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I think you have laid a solid foundation now for future work, I find coming up with a structure is always harder than adding the detail, so well done. I've read the thread below concerning Trevor-Roper's work and was rather surprised myself, it is something I'll have to look into further. Regarding Steigmann-Gall's work, it has been criticised by Babik, see the quotes I posted at the top of this thread from Babik's review of Steigmann-Gall's book. That's what makes this topic so difficult, scholars seem to find some issue in each other's works. --Nug (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Targeted groups?

Can someone add Slavs to targeted groups? To this paragraph: To maintain the purity and strength of the Aryan race, the Nazis sought to exterminate Jews, Romani, and the physically and mentally disabled. Other groups deemed "degenerate" and "asocial" who were not targeted for extermination, but received exclusionary treatment by the Nazi state, included: homosexuals, blacks, Jehovah's Witnesses and political opponents.

From "The Holocaust"[REDACTED] page:

Slavs Main articles: Generalplan Ost and Hunger Plan

One of Hitler's ambitions at the start of the war was to exterminate, expel, or enslave most or all Slavs from their native lands so as to make living space for German settlers. This plan of genocide was to be carried into effect gradually over a period of 25–30 years.

It is a question of existence, thus it will be a racial struggle of pitiless severity, in the course of which 20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews will perish through military actions and crises of food supply.

— Heinrich Himmler spoke about Operation Barbarossa, June 1941 Nekoceko (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the context here is targeted groups within Germany itself. --Nug (talk) 23:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

DAP ?

What's point with DAP ?! Nazism isn't socialism. It's only the name :

• Not class struggle, which is an important socialism topic

--Bobybarman34 (talk) 12:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This is an old chestnut. Search the archives, this has discussed before. --Nug (talk) 23:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It's more than just a name. It certainly isn't socialism in the Marxist sense or in the Christian socialist tradition, with their vision of a more just and egalitarian society. But neither should the 'socialist' element in Nazism be underrated in terms of explaining its wide appeal to many Germans. The 'socialism' of the Nazis was very narrowly defined within a nationalist framework (its variant of egalitarianism being embodied in the idea of Reich citizenship - as Hitler put it, a German street sweeper should feel superior to any foreign king). It never quite succeeded in winning over the workers to the extent the Nazis hoped for, but it did in many individual cases cut across the class divide. I think this is why the Left has never understood why the Nazi dictatorship was possibly the most popular in history. It built on Bismarck's state socialism which was well in advance of other European countries (and eventually copied by them). Nazi social welfare put France and Britain in the shade during the 1930s Depression. Read Hitler's Table Talk to see how smug he is when referring scornfully to the way the class system operates in England. I'm sure it was awareness of the inadequacy of Britain's welfare system compared with Germany's that made its expansion under the Beveridge Plan of 1942 a political imperative. Hitler and Goebbels were proclaiming a 'New Order' in Europe which would sweep aside the old, decadent 'plutocratic' order in France and Britain. Politically, these older systems could not, after victory, return to pre-war average levels of material existence and still expect to enjoy popular legitimacy. Neutralising the propaganda of the Soviet Union's 'workers' paradise' was also a consideration. Kim Traynor (talk) 08:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Socialism should not be confused with social welfare programs, or we will end up referring to Roosevelt's New Deal as American socialism (a claim generally made only by fringe right-wing polemicists). The Nazis' "national socialism" should not be confused with what is generally understood by socialism as an ideology. Of course, the name was chosen to appeal to the working class. Bismarck was not a socialist. In fact, he passed the Anti-Socialist Laws. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 22:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

"Socialism should not be confused with social welfare programs..." Indeed so, but social welfare programs are popularly associated with socialism. It's absurd to imply I suggested Bismarck was socialist. He was playing the same game as Hitler, providing social welfare measures 'from above' to wean the workers - proletariat if you prefer - away from Marxist socialism and integrate them into the authoritarian state. Kim Traynor (talk) 23:38, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight. The Germans were not smart enough to figure out what 'Socialist" actually meant, and were thus fooled by the Nazi's, or is your assertion that the Germans were so smart that planned to confound us all over a half a century later with this incredibly clever scheme to fool us all and make Socialism look bad by falsey using the name? Really, do you all have anything but your own personal opinions to actually back this up? Something solid and lastings. Hey I know we will settle this by looking at specific planks in the National Socialist Party Platform. You know, the National Socialist Program.

11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

http://en.wikipedia.org/National_Socialist_Program

Holey Moley Braintrusts, they were Socialists. The biggest fraud perpetrated by the so called intellectual elite in the 20th Century was the idea that National Socialism and Marxist Socialism were polar opposites. They were not, they were in competition for the same groups of people. If you have trouble understanding the animosity between them, I suggest you research Stalinism, Trotskeyites, and Maoists and their notably (not peaceful) ideological disputes. They are all Socialist. Whether Hitler, Stalin or Mao actually believed in Socialism is certainly debatable, but their ideology was all socialist, so the point can be made it was meant to just attract followers. That point can be made about any Political Ideology or movement. But these groups were far more alike than any of them were "different" and what they sound like is the half of the Occupy Wall Street movement, right down to the Anti-Semeticism.

Power — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.79.13.6 (talk) 20:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Under your absurd "reasoning," we are to then conclude that the German Democratic Republic (a/k/a, the "DDR," otherwise known as East Germany) was really not Communist at all! Why, they had the word "Democratic" right there in the name! There is no merit whatsoever to your argument, which is why there are no reputable historians that buy into such a ludicrous concept. There is no "conspiracy" or "fraud," any more than there is any merit to other wackadoodle conspiracies, like the "Truther," "Birther," or "Chemtrail" conspiracies. Promoting this kind of nonsense is prima facie evidence of a complete lack of critical thinking skills. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 23:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Trevor-Roper Edition of Hitler's Table Talk Should Not be RS...

I just noticed that someone is adding stuff to this page, particularly in regards to the whole Hitler/Christianity debate. Rather than copy and paste the many comments from reputable historians regarding the absolute fakery involved in Trevor-Roper's "translation," particularly in reference to the alleged "anti-Christian" passages, I'll just link you to where it has already been cited very well in the WP article for the book in question: . Such obvious (and well-known, at least in the academic community...) forgeries should not be used as RS on this page. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 19:44, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

That someone is me. And that someone is now being told that Trevor-Roper's Hitler's Table Talk is an obvious and well-known forgery. I'll need to investigate what that assertion is based on because it isn't obvious to me nor known. Is Picker's Table Talk text also a forgery? Kim Traynor (talk) 23:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I've now looked at the link you provided. It'll take me time to digest and act upon. My first reaction is not to believe that Trevor-Roper's work is a forgery. I am being told Hitler has been mistranslated, which is perfectly believable but a different proposition. Since it might well be true, may I suggest you have a go at trying to provide a straightforward account of the Nazi-churches relationship. I've found that difficult to achieve without going to the horse's mouth, so to speak, for Hitler's views on Christianity. If we don't know what they were, we will certainly find ourselves in a different place. The rest of the information on that link seems to be a discussion about contradictions between the Nazi relationship with the churches and what one might term Hitler's religiosity. There are certainly ambiguities in these, so why should we be surprised to find contradictions? I already tried to point that out by saying much of the evidence appears contradictory. The other stuff about an Aryan Christ is hardly revelatory. Kim Traynor (talk) 00:17, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

This is very serious, in fact shocking. If Steigmann-Gall's findings are reliable, I assume he immediately started work on a new translation, or has convinced a publisher to step in and arrange one's appearance. If, for example, Hitler did not refer to "the disease of Christianity", Trevor-Roper has indeed been fraudulent, or perhaps, more charitably, lazy in relying on the incorrect French translation. If fraudulent, it places a question mark against the credibility of his other work. How much of 'The Last Days of Hitler' did he also invent? (Goodbye 'Downfall' et al.) Does the English version of Hitler's 'Last Will And Testament' also contain translation errors? My brain is slowly shifting gear here, and if, after rummaging around, I find I've been duped, I'll have to expunge the TT references and try to stick to what has been recorded independently of what were hitherto believed to be relevant Hitler utterances. I did say earlier in the discussion that I am not best placed to rewrite this section, but recognised the need to do so. I think, for example, the material on Luther should be on a page dealing with anti-Semitism and that this page should only mention it briefly as one ingredient in the Nazis' anti-Semitism. Now I note that we have a seemingly stranded pic of Streicher whose position will have to be moved to link him more to the Luther section. Kim Traynor (talk) 09:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the passages which were based off of specific statements from Trevor-Roper's "translation" that have been shown to be forged. (I use the term "forged" because I think it goes beyond mere "mistake" when you add things that aren't there in the original...in order to change the entire meaning of a sentence...) I left the rest of the stuff cited to Trevor-Roper, because I can't say that everything in HTT is fraudulent, and if I did so, it would totally mess up the section. I do think, however, that other RS should be used in place of it, because of the "issues" in Trevor-Roper's edition. It's like using Hermann Rauschning's "The Voice of Destruction" as a source. It's just not reliable. Here's an essay I found, discussing the various fakeries and mistranslations often used to "prove" that Hitler was anti-Christian, when the actual historical record shows otherwise: . (It also discusses the Trevor-Roper fiasco...) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:24, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'm pretty much persuaded now that Trevor-Roper isn't reliable (though I must say the mistake about the army belt buckles on that link is pretty crass. It suggests unfamiliarity with German history because the motto predates Nazism; so who did that chap's translations for him?). If Hitler's other pronouncements in the TT are NOT mistranslated, the basic picture remains the same, but can only be illustrated by duller quotations. By the way, I thought the consensus view of Rauschning was that contemporaries thought he was making it all up, but that events proved he was pretty much accurate on what he was reporting. Kim Traynor (talk) 20:07, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Well some authors have a tendency to attribute everything to Hitler, but the Nazi party was more than just him. Goebbels also held a dim view of the established churches stating: "Catholicism and Protestantism are both rotten". And let's not forget that one of the key ideologues of the Nazi movement was the Baltic German Alfred Rosenberg, being a true anti-semite he rejected both Catholic or Protestant beliefs and tenets as tainted by Jews and wanted to create an entirely new religion. Hitler may have admired Jesus to be the "slim, tall, blond" aryan saviour of the Germanic people, but at one stage Hitler also admired Stalin thinking he must of had some Ayran blood due to his ruthlessness. The Nazis rejected the Old Testament , which is core to Christian belief, and wanted to merge the Catholic and Protestant churches after the war into a unified German secular religion with elements of paganism. So in that sense the Nazis were anti-Christian. --Nug (talk) 20:41, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

"In that sense," what you just wrote was OR... --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 23:36, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense Byron, see Richard Steigmann-Gall,The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945 Page 218: "Over time, Nazi hostility to Christianity seemed to increase, as new anti-Christian voices, particularly Martin Bormann's, began to be heard. By the start of the war, Hitler himself was taking a more antagonistic stance". --Nug (talk) 08:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is the link. The author says there were both Christian and anti-Christian elements in Nazism. Notice that Catholic and Protestant churches continued to be major supports for Nazism, even as relations strained. All political movements have internal divisions. TFD (talk) 17:37, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Nug, the sentence that begins with, "In that sense..." is clearly an attempt to reach a conclusion, rather than a presentation of RS. It is your conclusion, and therefore OR. Furthermore, while it can easily be shown that the Nazis used "pagan" imagery and symbolism, you will find it difficult to show that the Nazis actually promoted any kind of "pagan" religious belief or ritual, or incorporated it into their version of Christianity. There is plenty of "pagan" symbolism all over Washington D.C., but that does not mean that the founding fathers of the United States intended to promote "paganism," or anything else. If you want to prove that the Nazis created a "unified German secular religion with elements of paganism," then you need to find RS stating that specifically...rather than reaching your own conclusions based upon your ideas of the definitions of "Christianity" and "paganism." --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 17:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Byron, perhaps you should get up to speed with the literature first. A review of Steigmann-Gall's book by Milan Babík (Nazism as a Secular Religion. History and Theory, Vol. 45, No. 3 (Oct., 2006), pp. 375-396): "Steigmann-gall’s revision of Nazi conceptions of christianity represents a welcome addition to accounts of Nazism as a form of neo-paganism". --Nug (talk) 20:18, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

You can't find anything better than a third party, admittedly "revisionist," interpretation of RS? And the title of the article, denoting a "secular religion" is at odds with the sentence you quoted, as "neo-paganism" is not in any way "secular." (This leads me to doubt that the author has anything but a chauvanist definition of "neo-paganism" similar to how many Christians view anything not fitting in line with mainstream Christian dogma as "pagan" -- like those who refer to Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormoms as "pagan.") Show me an example of the Nazis promoting the worship of Odin, Thor, Freya, etc., and you might have a point. Anything else is just an attempt by modern Christian apologists to try to distance Nazism from Christianity, now that most of the alleged anti-Christian statements by Hitler and "Occult Nazi Conspiracy" hogwash have been debunked. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, what Steigmann-Gall's book actually says is this: "Whereas past forms of Christian politics were known to embrace nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Marxism, or antiliberalism, the Nazis took these ideologies to new levels. For this reason the Nazis represented a departure from previous Christian practices. However, this did not make them un-Christian. Whereas millions of Catholics and Protestants in Germany did not think Nazism represented their interests or aims, there were many others who regarded Nazism as the correct Christian response to what they saw as harsh new realities." (Steigmann-Gall, "The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945," p. 262). He then goes on to discuss what he terms as elements of "paganism" in Nazi belief, but it is clear from the context that he is using it in the un-scholarly, Christian chauvinist, fashion...referring to any departure from Christian canon or dogma as "pagan," when the correct term really should be "heretical," rather than showing any connection whatsoever between Germanic pagan religion (the worship of Odin/Wotan, Thor, Freya, etc.) and the religious beliefs promoted by the Nazis. In fact, he specifically dismisses any connections between the actual Germanic pagan religions and Nazism as simply "window dressing for an ideology rooted in a different source." (p. 263). --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 15:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Well Bryon, it is clear that you regard your own interpretation of Steigmann-Gall's book; "but it is clear from the context that he is using it in the un-scholarly, Christian chauvinist, fashion...referring to any departure from Christian canon or dogma as "pagan," when the correct term really should be "heretical,"" carries more weight than Milan Babík's review published in a reliable source. But unless you find a RS that supports your contention that Babík's or Steigmann-Gall's definition of "paganism" is a chauvinist definition it remains essentially OR coloured by your personal POV. --Nug (talk) 19:37, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It's quite clear from Steigman-Gall's own statements (quoted above) that he was not insinuating that Christianity had merged with Germanic paganism under the Nazis, as if that were somehow possible...though that appears to be what you are promoting, by using Steigman-Gall as a "source." Incidentally, I've noticed that there are other peer-reviewed articles out there by Christian apologists who DENOUNCE the book in question because they feel that it promotes the idea that the Nazis "were essentially ‘Christian’," and "that neo-pagan ideas played an insignificant role in the ideology." (See "Inventing ‘Paganists’: a Close Reading of Richard Steigmann-Gall's the Holy Reich," by Irving Hexham, Journal of Contemporary History, January 2007, vol. 42, no. 1, 59-78) So I don't understand how you are using Steigman-Gall as a "source" that the Nazis weren't really Christian, and that their ideology was merged with paganism. It's like trying to "prove" that a government, ruling over a non-Christian country, somehow promoted Christianity...without ever mentioning "Jesus," "Christ," or "God" in any public speeches, legislation, or other policy matters whatsoever. It just doesn't make sense at all. Regardless, your own source (Steigman-Gall) specifically states the exact opposite of what you posted when you said that the Nazis were "anti-Christian," when he stated, as was previously quoted by me, that, "this did not make them un-Christian." Also, I can't access the article right now, but from reading the abstract and first page of the Milan Babik article you quoted earlier, it certainly looks to me as if you're mischaracterizing the author's conclusions and opinions regarding Steigman-Gall. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 19:59, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The section reads poorly now, and whitewashes Christian church's support for the Nazis and of course their support after the war with the ratline. TFD (talk) 02:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

TDF, you should also read up on the current literature, because if you had you would know that Protestantism includes a vast number of independent religious bodies many of which were unrelated to each other and you would know that out of the approximately 18,000 Protestant pastors in Nazi Germany, only around 3,000 were members of the pro-Nazi Deutsche Christen faction while the remaining 15,000 pastors were not.(William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, pp. 234–40.) This plain fact shows that your statement "The section whitewashes Christian church's support for the Nazis" seems not to be based upon any source but rather your personal uninformed POV. --Nug (talk) 07:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry TDF thinks that the section reads poorly. For someone exploring the subject for the first time, I'm sure it provides them with a clearer mental map than what existed before. This section is not there to put the churches in the dock, nor to whitewash them. It hardly does that. It explains they had a shared anti-communist ideology with Nazism, were prepared to come to an 'arrangement' and tried not to rock the boat. It ends with a moral condemnation. On the other hand, it tries to show that many church-goers would have felt no categorical imperative to protest against a regime that was reluctant to carry out unpopular measures against them. It was left to people of conscience to register their protest by not conforming to the institutional 'party line'. The section is trying to include a mention, as briefly as possible, of all the elements involved (I left out Jehovah's Witnesses as being more appropriate to a page dealing with persecution). I haven't found the secondary literature I've consulted giving a sense of the proportion of these elements (that's another discussion), probably because we simply can't put any figures to how many thought X and how many thought Y within each church. All we can probably do, unless someone comes up with hard evidence, is indicate who appears to have been in the majority and who in the minority. We can, however, give estimates like Shirer or exact figures if recorded, as in the case of Hildebrand's figure for the arrest of Lutheran pastors in 1937. I would say the ratline had more to do with personal acquaintances assisting each other or being asked to assist third parties on the basis of their anti-communism, hence pro-fascist tendencies. You can say the hierarchy turned a blind-eye, or even colluded in certain cases, but that is specific to the Catholic Church in any case, or more precisely some Catholic clergy, and has nothing to do with the majority of church-goers in Germany who were Lutheran. It is also irrelevant to the Third Reich time frame being dealt with here. Kim Traynor (talk) 10:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, a whole issue of the Journal of Contemporary History , Vol. 42, No. 1 (Jan., 2007) is devoted to the reviews on works authored by Steigmann-Gall. Therefore, by no means is this author non-notable or fringe. I suggest everyone to read those articles. I know that Nug has an access to this journal and, therefore, he can read all of them. In connection to that it is strange for me that he claims that some authors denounce Steigmann-Gall, and forgets to note that many articles from the same issue support his views. For example, Richard J. Evans's summary of the issue says:

"In his book "The Holy Reich. Nazi Conceptions of Christianity 1919–1945", published in 2003, Richard Steigmann-Gall proposes a way forward. Presenting for the first time, at least in English, a thorough analysis of the religious beliefs of the nazis themselves, Steigmann-Gall argued that although active nazis, from the leadership down to the lower levels of the party, were bitterly opposed to the Catholic Church, they had a more ambivalent attitude towards Protestantism and to Christianity more generally. Even those who, like Himmler and Rosenberg, advocated a kind of pseudo-Germanic paganism, retained at least some Christian elements amongst their religious beliefs. Most preferred a nazified form of Protestantism as suggested by the ‘German Christians’. Nazism in fact contained a wide variety of religious beliefs. Crucially, however, Steigmann-Gall argues that the paganists were less important in the end than the proponents of a ‘positive’, that is, a nazified Christianity. Moreover, the overwhelming majority of Germans, including those who carried out monstrous crimes of mass murder, torture, human experimentation and much else besides, remained members of the Christian Churches. Although their beliefs and attitudes changed over time, the fact remains, he concludes, that the nazis were, at bottom, basically Christian in their religious orientation.

These are controversial theses. Steigmann-Gall backs them up with a wealth of illustrative material, garnered from a score of archives and a large quantity of obscure nazi publications. Yet do they, in the end, convince? In this special debate, commissioned by the Journal of Contemporary History, a variety of experts in the field address the issues raised by Steigmann-Gall’s book. The theologian and religious historian Stanley Stowers considers them in the light of the theoretical literature on the nature of religion, and particularly political religion. Doris Bergen, author of the standard work on the ‘German Christians’, provides a balanced appraisal of Steigmann-Gall’s central arguments; Manfred Gailus, whose social history of the Protestant Church in Berlin under the nazis has established itself quickly as a major contribution to the debate, launches a critical assault on Steigmann-Gall’s theses, backed up by Ernst Piper, author of a recent major biography of Alfred Rosenberg. Finally, the theologian Irving Hexham uses an approach derived from the sociology of knowledge to take issue with Steigmann-Gall’s use of sources, rightly concluding, as in the end do all the contributors, that it is necessary to take the nazis’ ideas seriously, however repulsive or bizarre they might seem, if we are to understand their appeal."

Some other quotes from that issue:

"Steigmann-Gall’s The Holy Reich provides a clear alternative to vague ideas about an incoherent religion of National Socialism that arose due to the spiritual vacuum of modernity and tried to replace Christianity. Instead of symbols and rituals that work in mysterious ways and language that does not mean what it seems to mean, The Holy Reich shows that the dominant portion of the nazi leadership held familiar Christian beliefs with their own distinctive interpretations of some points." Stanley Stowers, Brown University

"Summed up this way, Steigmann-Gall’s book can be seen as an expression — perhaps even the culmination — of a trend in the scholarship over the past several decades. Indeed, claims of his project’s originality notwithstanding, with The Holy Reich Steigmann-Gall entered a lively and well-established conversation on both sides of the Atlantic. Like many other misconceptions about National Socialism, the anti-Christian notion has long been disputed by historians and scholars of religion, even if they have not succeeded in changing popular views. In different ways and to different extents, John Conway, Ernst Helmreich, Richard Rubenstein, Gordon Zahn, Robert Ericksen, Susannah Heschel, Rainer Laechele and many others have pointed to connections and affinities between National Socialism and Christianity. I consider my work on the German Christian movement part of this broad historiographical development." Doris L. Bergen, University of Toronto.

"Steigmann-Gall has good reason for concentrating on Protestantism as the philosophical point of access for nationalistic and National Socialist ideas. One can identify the contemporary National Protestant milieu — as compared with other social milieux and group cultures — as the main breach point for the ‘Ideas of 1933’. Manfred Gailus, Technical University of Berlin

Despite considerable reservations and omissions, Steigmann-Gall’s study makes an interesting, stimulating and at times provocative book. I agree

entirely with his assessment of the presence and effectiveness of National Socialist Christians, particularly in the Protestant milieu. I would estimate that a third of the contemporary Protestant milieu belonged to these dual-faith inner ecclesiastical circles. I am less convinced about the presence and prominence of Christian National Socialists, particularly in the Party leadership. They certainly existed but more so in the lower and middle ranks of the NSDAP; if they were present in the upper echelons, it was only here and there and usually in diluted form. ‘Conceptions of Christianity’ cannot seriously be applied to this group; a more appropriate description would be dual faith side by side with shrinking remnants of Christianity." (ibid)

"In writing The Holy Reich, the title of which is never explained, Richard Steigmann-Gall has chosen an extraordinary topic. He provides interesting information about the religious career of leading National Socialists, but has failed to justify his claim to have proved that National Socialism was a Christian movement." Ernst Piper, Moses Mendelssohn Centre for European-Jewish Studies in Potsdam.

"In conclusion, there is no easy answer to the questions raised by SteigmannGall’s book. National Socialism still sends shivers of horror through most people today. All we can do is plot its progress and attempt to understand how such evil was sold to the world. Unless we face the full horror, including its intellectual and mythical appeal to both the masses and scholars through works like Michael and the Mythus, we will have failed to understand the true rhetorical significance of nazism and its literature." Irving Hexham, University of Calgary

These are all reviews devoted to the Steigmann-Gall's book. As you can see, some of them are critical, whereas others fully support him. Interestingly, Manfred Gailus noted that the situation with religion in the Third Reich showed tendency to drift from Christianity to some form of Neo-Paganism. That trend became especially prominent in early 40s, and was stopped by the military defeat of Germany. In connection to that, the very question "were Nazi Christians?" is incorrectly formulated: probably, they initially were Christians (or predominantly Christians) and they probably would become Pagans (or the proponents of Nazism as a form of secular religion) later (if they would not be defeated).
In addition, some of other reviews criticise just some theses of Steigmann-Gall. Thus, the main Babik thesis is not that Nazi were not Christians. He simply argue that it would be correct to describe Protestant Progressivism as a form of secular religion, therefore,

"Fine-tuning secularization as a tool of historical understanding in this manner represents a second, and perhaps the key, potential benefit for political religion historiography. With the distinction between partial and complete secularization in place, there is every reason to believe that one can classify Steigmann-Gall's Protestant Nazism as secularized eschatology while remaining sensitive to its differences from other (irreligious) instances of the same phenomenon"

In other words, Babik does not argue that Nazi were not Christians, his point is that their Christianity fits a definition of secular religion.
--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Paul, the volume of your latest contribution is impressive, but it is not clear to me what your reason is for presenting it. Is it to show that Steigann-Gall is taken seriously? What conclusion should we draw from your last sentence in terms of how it should affect what appears in the article? Kim Traynor (talk) 20:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Steigann-Gall, as well as many other authors expressing similar views, should be taken seriously, and the idea that Nazism was intrinsically secular anti-Christian movement should not be presented as the sole mainstream views. For example, in light of some sources cited by me it is clear that the idea of the fundamental incompatibility of Christian teachings and Nazi ideology appears not as obvious today as the article says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Paul says: "I know that Nug has an access to this journal and, therefore, he can read all of them. In connection to that it is strange for me that he claims that some authors denounce Steigmann-Gall, and forgets to note that many articles from the same issue support his views." Well, thank you Paul for the reference to this journal issue, but your contention that I somehow "forget to note that many articles from the same issue" is most bizarre, as I don't see how it is possible to "forget" something before the fact of becoming aware of it in the first place. As you recall, I referred to Babik's critical paper published in History and Theory, so I am unsure why you think I might have read this particular issue of Journal of Contemporary History before your mention of it. But anyway, as we now have these reviews, let's examine them in order to assess the weight we should apply to Steigmann-Gall's POV.

Stanley Stowers doesn't seem to be a review of Steigmann-Gall's book but rather he is appears to be air his own opposition to the concept of "political religion", citing Steigmann-Gall briefly in support of his own POV.

Doris L. Bergen seems supportive but highlights some issues:

"According to Richard Steigmann-Gall, ‘the insistence that Nazism was an anti- Christian movement has been one of the most enduring truisms of the past fifty years'", "As I suggested in my book Twisted Cross, the German Christians did not fit most standard theological criteria for Christians: that is, they rejected basic Christian teachings about the divinity and humanity of Jesus and renounced the canonicity of Christian scripture.", "Perhaps in an effort to make his evidence fit neatly, Steigmann-Gall left out the crucial element of tension in nazi–Christian relations. Without conceding at least some nazi hostility, however, the dynamic generated by Christian defensiveness cannot be understood. This and other shortcomings will reduce Steigmann-Gall’s ability to convince sceptics of his arguments, but they cannot negate the significance of his call to confront the presence of Christianity in National Socialism."

Irving Hexham:

"Richard Steigmann-Gall challenges the dominant view that nazi leaders were hostile to Christianity"

Hexham goes on to criticise Steigmann-Gall misuse of primary sources such as Goebbels:

"Presented in this way, Goebbels appears to be endorsing Christianity. When read in the context of genre and situation, Goebbels’ speech appears in a very different light. As the editor of Goebbels’ Reden points out, Goebbels was a master of irony and rhetoric, making it very difficult at times to know exactly what he meant. In the context of the speech cited by Steigmann-Gall it appears that Goebbels is being ironic."

and dismissal of non-Christian influences in the Nazi Party such as Rosenberg’s:

"It is here that Steigmann-Gall’s approach fails. Rather than enabling the reader to understand how and why people accepted nazi logic he dismisses it as illogical and vainly seeks an alternative explanation that leads him to deny that anyone could possibly have read Rosenberg’s work."

Ernst Piper:

"In his book The Holy Reich, Richard Steigmann-Gall confronts us with the provocative thesis that, in reality, National Socialism was a Christian movement." "He provides interesting information about the religious career of leading National Socialists, but has failed to justify his claim to have proved that National Socialism was a Christian movement."

Manfred Gailus :

"In his introduction he notes correctly that, to date, mainstream researchers have characterized National Socialism — in terms of a movement, a regime, an ideology — as predominantly non-Christian or explicitly anti-Christian."

On the other hand Gailus states Steigmann-Gall adds nothing new as most of it had been discussed in previous decades, citing Claus-Ekkehard Bärsch’s 1998 study of the religious dimensions of NS ideology:

"That Steigmann-Gall fails not only to mention but also to analyse this research which is core to his subject, is utterly incomprehensible. Was he not familiar with it? Would it have reduced the novelty value of his intended ‘revision’? There is another consideration which greatly reduces the surprising or sensational nature of his purported ‘discoveries’. All the nazi protagonists belonged to a generation born between 1880 and 1910 into an empire orientated towards Christianity. What other religious-philosophical influences could they be expected to bring with them from their — mainly bourgeois/petty bourgeois — family background, school, church and upbringing, from the civil-religious cultural contexts of public morality, morals and values, than a belief system informed by Christianity in its broadest sense and the corresponding mentality and loyalty to tradition?"

Given that there are so many writers that support or reject his work, we can conclude that Steigmann-Gall book is at least controversial, and this is confirmed by Evans in his introduction to the issue: "These are controversial theses". Given that most reviewers, both supporters an detractors, state Steigmann-Gall book challenges the dominant viewpoint, we can say his POV is therefore minority and thus be given less weight. Given that most reviewers, and including Steigmann-Gall himself, state the dominant viewpoint is that Nazism was anti-Christion, we can also conclude that this POV can be given most weight. --Nug (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, his viewpoint is not the mainstream (at least, not the sole mainstream view), but it is not a fringe view either. Doris L. Bergen listed several authors, who, as well as Bergen herself express the idea of affinity of Nazism and Christianity/Protestantism. They are John Conway, Ernst Helmreich, Richard Rubenstein, Gordon Zahn, Robert Ericksen, Susannah Heschel, Rainer Laechele and many others, according to her. Therefore, this viewpoint should be represented in the article at least as one of significant minority views. As our policy says, "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents". I named several prominent adherents, and I believe it is quite sufficient to devote decent space in the article to this viewpoint.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no impression in any of the journal papers that there is more than one mainstream view. You say that Bergen mentions a number of authors having expressed the notion of affinity between Nazism and Christianity, but she says "in different ways and to different extents" to Steigmann-Gall. Let's not confuse the two issues of church collaboration/support and the whether the Nazis were pro or anti-Christian. There is no question that thousands of pastors supported the Nazi movement, but equally thousands of pastors opposed the Nazis, causing a split in German Protestantism into the pro- and anti- Nazi factions of German Christians and Confessing Church. The point of divergence is that Steigmann-Gall (who Bergen states is also claiming to revise her viewpoint too) asserts that most of the top Nazi hierarchy were active Christians who saw the Nazi movement as an extension of the Reformation through Positive Christianity. But Bergan states "Most scholars dismiss ‘positive Christianity’ as nothing but an opportunistic slogan coined to conceal nazism’s intrinsic hostility toward Christianity and the Churches". Steigmann-Gall leaves out, as Bergen states, the crucial element of tension in nazi–Christian relations and he fails to concede any nazi hostility existed that created a sense of a return to Kulturkampf that drove German Catholics and Protestants into defensiveness and thus collaboration as a strategy for self-preservation. So while I agree Steigmann-Gall is not fringe, his viewpoint never the less goes far beyond that even of those authors mentioned by Bergen (which she includes herself) who discuss the affinities between the German church and state. So I don't think you can use these other authors to claim Steigmann-Gall has greater weight than he has. --Nug (talk) 18:38, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The positions by Nazis in public differed from what they thought in private. Public stances by Nazi officials on Christianity were carefully crafted because: (1) Germany's Christianity has been divided since the Reformation between Protestantism and Catholicism, (2) it would be stupid in those days for any politician to say they were an athiest - they would lose support from the religious communities. In private, the Nazis were divided - some despised Christianity altogether for being of Jewish origins, others claimed that they supported a Positive Christianity - that claimed that the Jews stole the Christian legend from the Aryans, and then there were others who sought alliance between Nazism and the Catholic Church like Mussolini and the Italian Fascists did - as a means to legitimize Nazism amongst Germans of the Catholic faith. There is little that can disguise the fact that the Nazis were highly uncomfortable with Christianity in the mainstream form - because of its connections with Judaism, although heroic patriotic imagery of Germany's Christian past was emphasized by the Nazis - such as references to the Teutonic Knights who were involved in the Crusades - mostly because it represented a historic example of German commitment to faith to a common cause and because it emphasized a warrior spirit that the Nazis sought to instill upon Germany.--R-41 (talk) 05:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

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