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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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LGBTQ+ studies Project‑class

This page is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

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Revisiting Amber Heard in the bisexual category

Hi, all. I'm just letting you know that whether or not Heard should be placed in Category:Bisexual actors is being revisited. Whether she should be placed in any LGBT category is also being tackled. See Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Listing Amber Heard in Category:Bisexual actors and Talk:Amber Heard#Taken to the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Flyer22 (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia LGBT Outreach Project & Wikimania LGBT Meetup - WikiProject LGBT Studies as a partner

I wanted to share two developments with folks and see if there are any objections to including enWP's WikiProject LGBT studies as a partner to both efforts.

1. Wikimedia LGBT Outreach is an effort to unify and bolster LGBT outreach efforts across Wikimedia projects. It was founded by folks involved in this projects and other Wikimedia efforts around the globe.
2. The 2nd Annual LGBT Meetup @ Wikimania will continue a tradition started in Haifa of bringing together members and supporters of the Wikimedia LGBT community. It will likely take place Saturday evening with an after party to follow at a DC LGBT venue.

Feedback, as always, is welcome on these efforts. I hope to see people at the Wikimania Meetup and meeting more folks through the LGBT Outreach project. Based on what I've heard from enWP LGBT folks on IRC - I anticipate WikiProject LGBT studies joining the Wikinews LGBT Portal and WikiQueer as partners of these efforts - but wanted to seek more input from folks here (for obvious reasons) first. --Varnent (talk) 02:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

FYI, the link in the first numbered item goes to a blank page. --joe decker 03:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Whoops - sorry about that - works now. --Varnent (talk) 03:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Two Lists Nominated for Deletion

List of LGBT community centres in Canada, deletion discussion is here:. List of LGBT community and student centres in the United Kingdom, deletion discussion is here: . Some of the centres listed are already standalone articles, so I don't see how notability could be an issue.OttawaAC (talk) 21:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you can make a case for the Canada list, but the UK list may be premature. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 22:13, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Sexual identity

I could use some help with the sexual identity article. It's woefully incomplete and the concepts it mentions aren't properly discussed or referenced in articles on similar topics, eg. gender identity. 0x2020 (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm really not seeing why there is a Sexual identity article when we have a Gender identity article. "Sex" and "gender," though they can be distinct, mean the same thing in this case. And despite what that article says, "sexual identity" is usually used in reference to sexual orientation and sexuality, not whether someone sees themselves as male or female. Flyer22 (talk) 01:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Also take note that the first reference for the Sexual identity article says "Sex identity," not "Sexual identity." Yes, there is a difference. Flyer22 (talk) 01:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking back at an earlier version of this article, it has been gutted over and over, which is why the "sexual identity" definition for it now is so limited and so WP:OR. It needs to be restored to how the term is usually used by scholars, which, as I've stated, is to refer to sexual orientation and sexuality. It's usually discussed in terms of meaning sexual orientation or a person who has a sexual identity that does not correlate with their sexual orientation...such as a gay man identifying as heterosexual.

I will see if I can get more editors to weigh in on this. Flyer22 (talk) 02:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah fuck. Being immersed in transgender topics and terminology the only meaning of sexual identity I knew was the sex that one identifies with. The article before my edits was absolutely horrific so I (rather rashly) deleted most of it without checking for any alternate meanings. I'm far too used to any article on transgender topics having a huge number of problems so I jumped to conclusions rather quickly. I have now included definitions for both meanings. Sorry! 0x2020 (talk) 13:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

You're still a fairly new editor here, so it's understandable that you will make certain editing mistakes. Some of the sources you are using for articles, for example, don't qualify as WP:Reliable sources because they are self-published. I suggest you click on the links listed under "Welcome!" on your talk page to learn more about the Misplaced Pages process. Besides sourcing, although, yes, some of your sources are fine, you should study the WP:Manual of Style. The way that you currently have the See also sections formatted in the Sexual identity article, for example, is improper.

I reiterate that "sexual identity" is usually used by scholars with regard to sexual orientation and sexuality, which is why it is included in the Sexual orientation, Homosexuality and Bisexuality articles. I see that Sexual orientation identity also exists, when it should be covered by the Sexual identity article. That said, maybe it doesn't need to be merged, since the Sexual identity article currently serves as a general article referring to all the definitions of "sexual identity." But I do see that you have continued to distinguish "sexual identity" from "gender identity" by making it seem that "gender identity" does not also refer to "the sex that a person sees themselves as." When it comes to the sex/gender a person sees themselves as, "gender identity" is usually the term used by the transgender community. I talked with an editor who usually edits transgender topics here at Misplaced Pages, and, like me, that editor hadn't even heard of "sexual identity" being defined the way you have described it until I mentioned it to him/her when asking for their opinion on this matter. The term "gender identity" is also usually used by scholars when referring to the sex that a person sees themselves as. Not "sexual identity." For example, the American Psychological Association states "Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else." And above, I pointed out that you confused one of the sources you are using; it says "sex identity," not "sexual identity." Maybe your other sources mean to state "sex identity" as well, seeing as it means the same thing as gender identity. "Gender identity" does not only mean that a person sees themselves as a man or woman, but also as male or female. This is one of those times where "sex" and "gender" are used interchangeably. And, as the Gender article notes (though the lead has been extensively debated on the talk page), these two words meaning the same thing is a valid definition of the term gender. Flyer22 (talk) 19:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

My recommendation would be to WP:AfD Sexual orientation identity, which is a novel term without documentation, and merge sexual identity into gender identity to cover the usage of the term sexual identity (and any specialized meaning) within any specific communities. Thanks for notifying Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sociology of the discussion. Meclee (talk) 19:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Meclee. I support your recommendation. However, why not simply redirect Sexual orientation identity to a sexual identity section of the Gender identity article? Flyer22 (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

On second thought, I feel that the Sexual identity article should stand on its own; it's well-documented by scholars (in terms of relating to sexual orientation identity and sexuality), and it's best not to have anyone confuse it with gender identity. Flyer22 (talk) 20:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Aha! I've found a synonym for the (transgender) definition of "sexual identity", "subconscious sex". See http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.html, http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/03/trans_101, http://transprose.net/2008/05/identity-subconscious-sex/. This seems to be in much more common use and doesn't present a confusing alternative definition to a word used in a similar area. So should a new section in gender identity be created or a new article made altogether? Should the article on sexual identity be reverted to the state before my edits? The tone/style wasn't, uhh... wikipedia-ish, and it contradicted itself a number of times, as well as duplicating information in articles on only slightly similar topics.0x2020 (talk) 23:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Those don't qualify as reliable sources on Misplaced Pages, 0x2020. Refer to the links about reliable sources that I provided above. But if you find reliable sources for that alternative term, yes, it's fine to add a section about it to the Gender identity article. But either way, any alternate terms for gender identity, such as "sex identity," should be placed in the Gender identity article, not the Sexual identity article. I see that you removed all transgender definitions from the Sexual identity article, which is good (although mentioning how sexual identity is distinguished from gender identity in the article is fine). But the way that the article is now a stub is not. So, yes, I would revert to an earlier version and remove any contradictions and/or off-topic stuff (like you did before). I wouldn't say that the article should be reverted prior to your edits, however. Neither this 2009 version that I linked to above nor this 2012 version prior to your edits are good. So it might be best to choose a version following your initial edit to the article, but of course without confusing sexual identity with gender identity -- the sex/gender a person sees themselves as. Flyer22 (talk) 04:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I know they don't count as reliable sources, I just linked to them so as to save people reading this discussion the effort of googling for a definition. 0x2020 (talk) 09:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, in the middle of a new film just out from IntegrityUSA there's a definition of these very terms, with trans people discussing their own experiences, which I found quite helpful on this whole topic and perhaps others would, too. WP won't let me post the link here, but go to YouTube and search for Out of the Box. Textorus (talk) 11:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't mention subconscious sex/sexual identity and the theistic waffling promotes a number of problematic terms and ideas. 0x2020 (talk) 13:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Ignore it then, since it does not meet your high and mighty standards, O wise one. I was just trying to be helpful - always a mistake on Misplaced Pages, where subconsciousness abounds. Textorus (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Seimone Augustus

• Une basketteuse de l'équipe nationale américaine fait son coming out--93.50.101.96 (talk) 18:53, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Seimone's engagement to LaTaya was added in May. Sounds as if a wedding won't happen this summer though. Gobōnobo 19:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY reminder templates for talk pages

In the wake of a discussion at the Misc. Village Pump, I've created a pair of templates which can be used on Talk pages to remind editors of the existence and meaning of MOS:IDENTITY with respect to trans individuals, Template:MOS-TW and Template:MOS-TM. Take a look, I'm sure they're far from perfect, and it'd be better to sand off the rough edges before any wide application. Thanks. --joe decker 22:22, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

LGBT parenting study

More eyes might be helpful here. Rivertorch (talk) 18:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

For the geeks among us - feedback requests

Just a thought I'm throwing out here, not knowing if it's doable or advisable: I just happened to find the page about the feedback request service. I wonder if it would be possible to set up a similar function strictly for LGBT articles. They are not one of the topics you can sign up under on that page. Any thoughts, guys? Textorus (talk) 10:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I've put Chad Griffin up at Peer Review

It should be listed on the main page there in the next hour or so. FYI, --j⚛e decker 20:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

LGBT instead of homosexuality

Recently i made some page moves changing "homosexuality" to "LGBT" on various religion pages. Many have been reverted (i.e. Homosexuality and Anglicanism) but some still stand (.i.e. LGBT and the United Church of Canada). I think the LGBT title is better because "homosexuality" tends to focus on a sexual aspect, even though most religious articles focus on various other issues which would fit LGBT more. Does anyone have thoughts on this? Pass a Method talk 12:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

LGBT and gay are preferrable over the slave-name "homosexuality" to people, but with Misplaced Pages religious themed articles will use homosexual instead 99% of the time in their quotes, sources, rants etc.

It's a difficult question as homosexuality is the scientific word and so for directly non-LGBT articles (like religious ones) "homosexual" would be preferrable. LGBT would only be preferrable in other articles and religious articles where it meant all (LGBT) rather than just the L,G and B.

Thanks Jenova20 13:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

As a general rule, it's best to initiate a discussion before making changes to entry names. The decision needs to be made on a case by case basis by those concerned who are familiar with the content of the entry. Engage your fellow editors. This isn't just about the name of the page: it's about educating your peers and maybe even learning something about how they understand the question you're raising with the proposed name change. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 15:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it's best to discuss the move at the page you want to move. Otherwise you will get reverted for moving without discussion or consensus. One option would be to propose a move on the pages, then initiate a central discussion somewhere (here perhaps). ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:33, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The form used is just bad anyway. Please do not use it as a noun. Talk about LGBT people/issues/subjects/topics/etc., not about LGBT. LadyofShalott 23:09, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

As Jenova20 says: there are times when it is appropriate to talk about "LGBT" and there are times when it's appropriate to talk specifically about the individual elements thereof, namely lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people. We should use the terms that are both the most appropriate and the most used by the sources, rather than pick terms based on whether they are preferential for us as individuals, partly because that's rather subjective. Some people strongly object to -sexual terms, some people object to the reclaimed 'queer'—identities are complicated. In addition, there's a lot of articles where you cannot actually substitute LGBT for homosexuality: Homosexuality in ancient Greece ain't really about anything but the 'G' in LGBT. —Tom Morris (talk) 23:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Glad you noticed that Tom. To clarify, my main point was to use the L, G, B and T when appropriate, religious articles rarely mention Transgenders and so the T in this case is inappropriate. Nothing to do with leaving them out, it's purely that they may not factor into any part of the article and so lumping them in is pointless and adding garbage with nothing to do with the article in question.

It has to be on a case by case basis. Thanks Jenova20 23:19, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Homosexuality in the New Testament is primarily about the G as well, and I'm pretty sure that the T isn't ever mentioned in the bible. :-) ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

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