Misplaced Pages

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Username penalty: IP users see articles 5x-50x faster

We need to remind users to logout to view mainstream articles 20x 30x faster. Avoid the username penalty which reformats major articles so much slower than for IP users. In running tests of template speed, I noticed that registered users (logged-in) now view articles which are formatted 5x to 50x times slower than what the IP-address users see (due to IPs seeing the common, quick, cached copies of formatted articles). Some of us were recently trying to optimize template speed, and were able to make a core template run about twice as fast, rather than having hundreds of "sub-optimized" one-line templates. In running those tests, then I noticed that hundreds of major articles can be displayed for IP users in about 1/8 second, whereas the username-specific reformatting of those articles runs several times slower, typically 20x 30x slower for mainstream articles, such as classic encyclopedia topics with formatted references. As you probably know, the complex citation templates use vast amounts of time to slow a large text article from a half-second formatting into several seconds during an edit-preview or view by a logged-in user. Of course that's fine, when people expect to hit "Show-preview" and wait several seconds for citations and navboxes to be formatted into a half-second text article. However, more users should know to log out and view the major articles 30x times faster, and edit them when needed, but after edit-preview log-in before saving the changes with an unwanted IP-address user ID. I would hate for most registered users to think that big Misplaced Pages articles are really displayed as excrutiatingly slow as when users are logged in. Logout and view the major articles 30x faster. Stubs display at the same quick speed either way, due to few {cite..} or navbox templates piled on those stub pages. Long term, I am wondering how to change major articles into simple large text pages that still format within one second, perhaps using dozens of quick templates. Reduce the current username penalty. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:49, 1 July, revised 00:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Assuming one is not a computer, then I don't see why this matters. I very rarely have to wait more than a second or two for an article to appear. I don't know what my reading rate is but I would say 30 words a second is a decent upper bound. So at the very worst this costs me the time to read a couple of sentences.

This will matter for bots of course. But then they shouldn't be running off cached pages most of the time... Egg Centric 21:40, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Only major articles slow, not stubs or small articles: Thanks for noting the difference. The problem is typically a speed factor for only major articles, such as the top 500 articles on any mainstream topic, where the {cite} templates have been used extensively (or navboxes are large). I think a typical infobox formats within 1 second, so a large half-second text formats within 1.5 seconds with an infobox. However, the various {cite} templates use the gargantuan Template:Citation/core with over 620 parameters in the markup, so using {cite...} often adds several seconds to the formatting time, at the rate of nearly 1 second per 13 {cite} transclusions. The result is that a major article formats in over 11-12 seconds, rather than 2-3 seconds, for registered users, or for anyone during edit-preview. Because the Internet is typically very slow (with exceptions such as Google Search), then many registered users do not realize that IP users see major articles several seconds faster than they do. It is an issue that I have been trying to improve for years (working on {cite-fast} templates which run 85 per second, 6x times faster), but Jimbo has advised to avoid "all templates" which would also solve the problem, but many templates (such as infoboxes) are valuable, so we just need to optimize (and reduce) the larger templates. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
• Making major articles 3x faster for editing: Okay, the reality, obviously, is that cached copies of articles will always be, typically, over 10x faster than any optimization of reformatting. A major article that IP users view in "0.249 seconds" is likely to reformat in over 11 seconds (44x slower), and my efforts at optimization are showing reformat times no faster than 5 seconds (20x slower than the cached copy), even though twice as fast as major articles display now. I think we could get major articles to reformat 3x times faster, to allow faster edit-preview of the whole page, by having special versions of templates which are specifically fast for the basic parameters (so for rare customized parameters, use the larger massive templates). Extensive functionality seems to be the enemy of speed, because checking for use of extra features, or giving users helpful advice during use, causes extra overhead and slows the whole template, or leads to n-variety sets of similar templates which are difficult to update in similar, synchronized functionality. A possible strategy would be to have 3 types of related templates:

• Template:Hogger - the typical massive template with many features
• Template:Hog_fast - a smaller version with only the basic features
• Template:Hog_helper - a training-mode version which warns of errors.

From the tests I have run, I am seeing that any template with many parameters will be something of a resource hog. This confirms Jimbo's advice to avoid large templates. Hence, we have the infobox templates, but they tend to slow reformatting by 1 second each, so limit their use (having 20 infoboxes in an article could slow the article by nearly 20 seconds). We can live with 1 or 2 large infoboxes per article, no problem. However, {citation} templates for 200 footnotes per article are going to eat major time, currently 1 second for every 13 footnotes, or almost 15 seconds for 200 footnotes. Instead, many people are hard-coding several footnotes, in areas, so not all "200 footnotes" use {cite} templates. The tests for the experimental {cite_fast} run faster as 70x per second, or almost 6x faster, but 200 footnote templates would still consume 3 seconds of reformat time, so again, hard-coding many footnotes (where the detailed parameters are not needed) can keep 200 footnotes below 3 seconds of formatting with a {cite_fast} template. -Wikid77 00:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I've run a couple tests myself using citation templates. I did 3 tests: one with just the urls, one with full citation templates, and one with short Harv citation templates in the "Notes" section that called the longer templates in the "References" section. The no-template was obviously the fastest. The one with 200 full citation templates was the slowest, and the one using Harvard templates was in between. It's a good option for articles that have a lot of citations to the same source. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:16, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

The discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates/Citation templates (technical) is useful background reading. A fuller debate exists at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Citation discussion. It's demoralising to see how the actual solution (extend cite.php and move away from templates) is opposed at Demo of specific proposal for all the wrong reasons. Any technical solution that requires changing something is likely to fail because of the culture of inherent Ludditeism that exists in Misplaced Pages. --RexxS (talk) 07:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• The vcite solution is great for now: Most users would be stunned to realize the articles will reformat or edit-preview 3x (thrice) as fast now, using Template:Vcite_book (etc.). Awesome! As for internal changes to Cite.php, I try to also consider the "worst possible scenario" of how the proposed internal PHP functions might include some hideous bugs, stuck for years, because template coders could not help to fix them. Instead, by using fast-cite templates, we can gain 80% more speed now, while also fixing any format bugs, within days, rather than months or years. Reducing a 23-second edit-preview to only a 8-second wait is a wikimiracle at this point. Beyond the cite templates, we can also optimize other issues, to gain even more speed than from citations alone. -Wikid77 15:48, revised 23:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Possibility of caching subst'd template results: Another tactic, which could be used in rare circumstances, would be to create "segmented articles" composed with cached segments appended to the current markup text. We could take very slow portions of articles and run the templates as wp:subst'ed, then save those segments and transclude them into the final article. For example, with an article named "Mars colony":

• Mars_colony/dynamic_map - a segment with a complex (slow) map template
• Mars_colony/dynamic_map_cache - a segment with the subst'ed template(s)
• Mars_colony - then transcludes {{Mars_colony/dynamic_map_cache}}

The rule would be that changes should be made to the template-based segments (not the cache versions), which are subst'ed into the cache-based segments, and then the cache files are appended into the article, allowing massive slow templates to be used in a huge article which reformats (around the cached segments) within seconds. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

You know that Tim is working on Lua ("scheduled for 2013")? The aim is to replace frequently-used templates with a new and much faster system. Johnuniq (talk) 00:35, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Conversion to fast Lua language: Thanks for noting that option for 2013. It would be great to have the ultra-efficient Lua scripting language, with loops and recursion, even if more complicated for many users. Beware that a massive change in technology is a typical tech solution for "deus ex machina" and typically needs almost a year longer than hoped (=2014?) to "quickly save the day". There is also a danger of interface overhead, such as a "faster" system needing a "10-second" connection link (hopefully not with Lua). Often, a rewrite can duplicate unneeded complexity, and there might be a feeling to handle all "620" parameters now in Template:Citation/core. Meanwhile, I am still focusing on actions to take within a few weeks, which already show 3x speed improvements. Long term, the use of Lua might allow extremely smart, and yet fast templates, so that is another benefit beyond today's cumbersome templates. -Wikid77 06:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
• Working on essays about performance: I think we will need several essays about various performance issues, depending on people's level of perspective, such as explain an article can process over 900 templates per second, but they must be (very) small templates. There are too many topics to cover in a single essay. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not finished

I'm astonished to find that we have no article about Count Robert le La Rochefoucauld in English Misplaced Pages. Naturally, the French Misplaced Pages does have an article. A guaranteed interesting story if anyone wants to take a shot at it!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, they started "Robert de La Rochefoucauld" (for French: fr:Robert de La Rochefoucauld). -Wikid77 05:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the community would rather write articles on celebrities' activities on FaceTube, TwitBook, etc. --MuZemike 14:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

If you want to bitch about that go comment at the AFDs, not here. Albacore (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not bitching, I'm only saying what is true. --MuZemike 15:33, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

See also fr:Bagad Kemper for a French featured article which doesn't have a page here. Albacore (talk) 16:58, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I have a ton of fun working on Ainu people's articles precisely because I don't have to worry about bullshit from fan sites; I hate having to say this, but other than me, how many people seriously care about Yukie Chiri of Imekanu? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

This many. benzband (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd bet a substantial chunk of those are me, from refreshing the page to make sure the formatting of the images I was adding in looked right... truthfully, that's at least 1/4 of them right there (formatting and me don't get along very well). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

"It is not up to us to finish the task" nor ought we avoid it. (ancient adage) Collect (talk) 18:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I just pushed Joseph Vaissète in the direction of Aymatth2, who rose to the challenge. That, too, had an article on the French Misplaced Pages, that I found as a side-effect of Talk:Côte d'Ivoire#This is an encyclopaedia article, supposedly.. There are editors who rise to such challenges. Uncle G (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

If anyone sees an interesting article on fr.wikipedia that is missing on en-WP I'd be happy to translate it for use here. I've only done a handful so far, but have found it to be quite enjoyable. Jezebel'sPonyo 00:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

See Category:Articles needing translation from French Misplaced Pages.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:42, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

See also fr:Catégorie:Article à traduire.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

my experience with Misplaced Pages

I was a happy and (based on feedback from other editors) productive Misplaced Pages user for a few years, until a disruptive editor whom I shall call DE (for "disruptive editor," get it?) decided to target me with some Misplaced Pages bullying. Not only did he break all rules of civility -- including but not limited to foul language and name calling -- but he also used his user page to rally other people to cyberbully me as well. It got to the point where I couldn't log on without seeing a new nasty message from DE or another editor claiming to be DE's friend. Repeated attempts to get Misplaced Pages to resolve this issue led nowhere. Often, I was chastised for failing to follow proper dispute resolution procedures (which apparently have to be followed in a very specific order), admins often ignoring the obvious point that dispute resolution only works if both people are interested in resolution. Eventually, an admin took pity on me and pointed out to DE that he was being uncivil and unreasonable. DE responded that Misplaced Pages rules, especially rules regarding civility, don't apply to him. You would think that this would clearly indicate to any third party that DE was acting in bad faith, especially in the context of his user page, which was filled with complaints from other editors, often involving civility, and DE invariably responding by calling the person an idiot (or something similar) and saying that the rules don't apply to him.

Instead, the admin responded with a suggestion that we both "stay away from each other" for a cooling-off period. I obediently spent some time away from Misplaced Pages. DE ignored the admin's instruction, and used this time to utilize his user page to rally more support for name calling and cyber bullying. I eventually logged on and found a message from an admin that, because I hadn't pursued the matter (during my "cooling off period" that was an admin's suggestion in the first place) the issue was officially considered resolved. Any glance at either my own or DE's user pages would see that it hadn't been resolved at all. Not knowing what else to do, I retired my account. I now limit my Misplaced Pages edits to correcting minor spelling and grammar errors, and I do so anonymously. Whenever I see the term "Misplaced Pages community," my mind always extends the metaphor to "on the wrong side of the tracks." The Misplaced Pages community failed me completely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.130.196 (talk) 05:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Cheer up. There is only freedom among the proles. 75.166.192.187 (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps consider WP:Clean_start with a new username: Cases of bullying can be very difficult for busy admins to analyze, as it is possible for bored people to "invent" disguised trouble which, at first, seems to be angry users attacking the bully (but actually goaded as long-term "90 scratches create a wound"). Well, it takes a lot of time to show an admin how someone (or a wp:TAGTEAM) created trouble by a twisted series of 90 small, peculiar edits. Normal people do not want to spend hours of their time trying to prove such demented behavior for an admin to confirm. Hence, many users just invoke WP:Clean_start (WP:NEWSTART) to retire the old username, and invent an entirely new username to edit other articles, with the help of a friendly admin to avoid appearance of WP:SOCKpuppetry. Although it is hoped that people come here to help write interesting articles, there are some people who seem to come to compete, or "toy" with victims to prove they can "beat" other people by concocting warped cyber-games. So, use WP:NEWSTART to edit with a new username, and then perhaps months from now, the prior bullies will quit from boredom (or "find Jesus" on their road to Hell), and the former username could be reactivated, after only "going into hiding" for a limited timespan, and returning the original username from years ago. Please think of bullies as temporary, and an original username could be salvaged in the long run. -Wikid77 07:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I would recommend neither editing as an ip (which has its own set of problems) nor starting a new account per WP:Clean_start. Instead, I recommend going back through your complaint and each time you make a factual claim ("foul language", "name-calling", "DE responded that..."). Without that, it is difficult for me to assist in correcting the problem.

I can help in two ways. First, and more important to you, I can seek to bring serious attention to your specific case and try to set things right, whatever that may involve. Second, and more important philosophically, if things are as you say then yes, the Misplaced Pages community failed you completely, and so I can help brainstorm about broader solutions.

We are in a general drive to improve editor retention. One of the apparent paradoxes of wanting to keep more (good) editors is to recognize that a certain number of difficult people simply need to be shown the door more quickly. It helps to have high-quality case studies so that more good editors can understand what needs to be done. It sounds to me like your example would be useful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think some text is missing from Jimbo's comment. I imagine he wants to see some links to pages that illustrate the issues mentioned because there is no way to evaluate any of the claims made. Johnuniq (talk) 10:22, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

With all do respect to Jimbo these sorts of things are common place in Misplaced Pages these days and all one need do to find them is wander about a bit and they will be quickly evident. Even seasoned editors (myself included) are finding it harder and harder to perform edits without some editor crying foul about something. There are a few active editors who seem to be finding ever more imaginative ways of finding reasons not to edit and deeming more and more edits as unwanted (as in the minds of a narrow few conservatives). IMO we should be encouraging edits not discouraging them, we should be fighting to eliminate such destructive behaviors as article ownership and abusive behavior but more often than not these are simply ignored if the editor has been around for a while and even more often if that editor is an admin. Certainly being an admin has a certain level of stress but I have seen some rather abhorant behavior from admins that defies any extra gratuity that should be accorded to them. Clearly this editor had a bad experience with WP but this is by no means an isolated incident and in fact this is becoming more commonplace for new editors. Kumioko (talk) 16:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad to see Jimbo willing to take an interest in cyber bullying. Even though it is getting alot of attention in the news regarding children as victims, adults can and are victims as well. Alot of states now have cyber bullying laws that do in fact apply to Misplaced Pages as well, and I wish admins took it more seriously. We dont need a headline "XY commits suicide after cyber bullying on a Misplaced Pages noticeboard". Just because some one has been editing "for a long time" or "that's how they communicate" that never justifies bullying in a way that if we were children our teachers would send us to the principal's office. We aren't children, we should know better by now. We talk big about "zero tolerance" but that seems to be used against the people being bullied more than it is against the bullies, which then it ends up that the very Misplaced Pages policies and procedures then become the "bullies" and tools of bullying.97.88.87.68 (talk) 19:48, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Really, there's no way to evaluate this without pointers to actual[REDACTED] users and events. There is a user I know of at the moment who is banned from 2 wikimedia projects, who has been screaming "bullying!" at the top of their lung,s but pretty much everyone from the WMF to Arbcom on down sees them as the aggressor. So if you have a problem with a specific editor, then name it and we can follow steps to see if the complaint has merit and if so, what to do about it. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Real examples would be helpful. An abstract comment with no actual links or names or anything is just impossible to evaluate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, you like to see real examples? Please take a look at the post just above your post this one. A named editor is called "aggressor" at your own talk page. Here are more real examples of user tarc harassing the user they mentioned in their post . And about the mentioned user, not only they believe they are being bullied. I do too, and some others do too . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.222.124 (talk) 02:41, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Good point, 68.49.222.124. If a user is calling people "f*cking retard" or "psychotic a*hole" on Misplaced Pages Review (

The links above are to off-wiki condemnation of a banned user, they are of no applicability or purview here. What we're talking about here is an anon IP alleging abuse, but there's nothing to be done about it if no one can evaluate the case. Tarc (talk) 13:37, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the idea is to have an example involving the user who made the complaint. If one admin really suggested a cooling off period and then another admin said that he can't complain because he had to complain during the cooling off period, surely he can post some diffs that show this. At most, all you're showing now is that at least one person bullies at least one other person. There's nothing to show that the person who complained is the one being bullied. 208.65.89.243 (talk) 03:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Norway's premier weapons manufacturer and disruptive edits

Kongsberg Gruppen ASA is the official name of the company, as registered with Norway's government in the Entity Registry (Norway).

Should that not be a part of the article Kongsberg Gruppen?

Disruptive edit  ? --Vistamesa (talk) 11:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Why not discuss that on the article talkpage in order to obtain WP:CONSENSUS to include it? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:50, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's another idea: take a look at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sju hav and ignore the troll. --Eisfbnore  11:58, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

@Bwilkins: Can you please move this discussion to the talk page that you mentioned? Maybe your involvement will help preventing deletion of talk pages, such as what happened with this red link, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Nordic_Women%27s_University&action=edit&redlink=1.

@Eisfbnore: Please start an Ad hominem discussion on my talk page. --Vistamesa (talk) 14:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Bribes by a Norwegian company in Libya--references and text have been removed regarding Yara International

Can something be done about this disruptive edit . That editor seems to be on a combined stalk-and-revert mission. Wp:Stalking? --Vistamesa (talk) 14:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

*sigh* It doesn't appear to meet the definition of WP:DISRUPT, and I see no proof of hounding/stalking. Have you followed dispute resolution processes? Jimbo is not the arbiter of articles ... WP:CONSENSUS is. If you have something that is not content-related and you have followed the processes in place, and yet still need urgent action, see WP:ANI (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I will take a closer look at dispute resolution processes. But it is my duty to inform Jimbo, when there seems to be a pattern of bullying on articles that might be (perceived to be) somewhat critical of my beloved nation.

I am trying to paint a picture here. Blanking of text and references in the Yara International and Kongsberg Gruppen articles, are partial symptoms that I have tried to describe.

To those who have been given the most, the most should be expected. I have been given access to wikipedia, something previous generations did not have. (To be continued) --Vistamesa (talk) 15:17, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

To paraphrase someone, somewhere: "from each according to the rules, to each according to consensus" (✉→BWilkins←✎) 19:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

The efficiency dividend

I know you prefer to avoid discussions about technical software changes, so this is another performance issue which applies to general users, rather than internal software structure. An interesting effect in page-load speed I have found is the "efficiency dividend" that allows shortened templates to run even faster, on a busy system. This issue should be included in an essay about page-load performance. It explains why users can view the improved major articles so much faster (even if they do not want to consider the math behind the improvements). In rewriting templates which can run 9x faster than before, over the past 2 years, I have noticed how the "busy" servers occasionally show a slow-down, for pretty much everything, and that delayed response often seems 1.4x (140%) longer, so a complex page-load of 10 seconds becomes 14 seconds when servers are busy. The figure of 1.4x is a general approximation, and might run even slower (such as rarely 2x or 20 seconds) when the system gets very busy.

The quite interesting aspect of the 1.4x delay is, while it applies to both short or long pages, it intensifies the benefit of making pages shorter. For example, if a 10-second article display (worse case: 14-second) is reduced to only a 2-second load, then the math predicts an improved "worst case" of 2.8-second load (1.4×2) when servers are busy. This has been observed in live tests of faster pages. The net result improvement includes the worst-case difference of 14-10 versus 2.8-2 seconds, or 4 versus 0.8 seconds = 3.2 seconds. That 3.2 is the "efficiency dividend" (or "efficiency bonus"), because the worst-case page-load time, for the faster page, never incurs that prior 3.2 extra seconds, and only risks the 0.8-second delay added by 1.4×2 seconds. Hence, although the prior page-load time of the 10-second run was shortened to a 2-second run, the busy servers will no longer delay the page to a 14-second run (+4 seconds), only 2.8 seconds, and thus the users avoid the 4-0.8 or 3.2 extra seconds as an efficiency dividend when the servers are busy, and the delays would seem even more irritating. When compared to the total page-load time, the result is 14-2.8 seconds faster, or 11.2 seconds faster, not just the ideal run times of 10-2, as 8 seconds faster. That 11.2 savings shows the effect of adding the 3.2-second efficiency dividend, so a faster page avoids the potential 11-second delay of the prior slow page. The point is that by simply improving a page-load from 10 to only 2 seconds, the improvement also avoids that 11-second delay, which users had often experienced at times of the day when the servers were running slower. Now, applying that to real articles, with a major article (such as a nation) which has a common 20-second load time, then shortening the 20-sec to a 6-second load time also gains the efficiency dividend of (28-20) - (8.4-6)= 5.6 seconds. With busy servers, an improved major article would load faster by 14+5.6=19.6 seconds, almost 20 seconds faster at busy times.

Overall, the "rule of thumb" would be, for a speed-improved article, the new load time would be an additional 5.6 seconds faster, at busy times, or about +6 seconds faster. The efficiency dividend for faster major articles is, thus, also +6 seconds faster than the underlying, basic speed improvement. Simply by improving major-article speed 3x, we gain yet another 6 seconds we did not anticipate. That is why improving a major article, to run faster, can become even another +6 seconds faster, as a free "efficiency dividend". -Wikid77 15:48, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that would have been better if it had all been chopped down to something more manageable. I got a feeling rather like on hearing the bit in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life about "Now before I begin the lesson; will those of you who are playing in the match this afternoon move your clothes down on to the lower peg immediately after lunch before you write your letter home if you're not getting your hair cut - unless you've got a younger brother who is going out this weekend as the guest of another boy; in which case collect his note before lunch, put it in your letter after you've had your hair cut, and make sure he moves your clothes down onto the lower peg for you." Dmcq (talk) 10:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, that is very similar, with slow pages and their faster brother pages, playing games on the servers, where the servers will get busy and slower in the "afternoon match", so improve articles to run on the streamlined "higher peg" as being much faster (+6 seconds faster) during the match. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Internet access until July 9

Some people may lose Internet access on July 9.

• DNS Changer Virus May Kick 2.7 Lakh Users Off The Internet | TechTree.com
• http://www.dns-ok.us/ and http://www.dns-ok.ca/ and http://www.dns-ok.gov.au/

A lakh (wikt:lakh) is 100,000—so 2.7 lakh is 270,000.
—Wavelength (talk) 16:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

In most cases a DHCP renew can fix it, I'd suppose.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Exception to your no template no div tags rule?

An editor recently put a countdown to the 4,000,000th article on your user page that I thought was pretty neat. Could you make an exception to your no templates or div tags rule for that? Ryan Vesey Review me! 13:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Done now I better get to some article creation, make this countdown tick a bit faster. Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:06, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• Enter 5-million pool #2 before mid-July: Remember, time is running out to cast a vote in the WP:Five-million_pool_(2), to guess the date of 5 million articles, before the pool auto-closes upon seeing the 4-million count. We are still on track to reach 4 million articles by 15 July 2012. The WP:Six-million_pool will remain open until 4.8 mil. -Wikid77 19:57, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposed policy regarding SOPA and its ilk

I just read an appealing editorial in Science by U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Michael H. Posner, which blasts internet filtering schemes in various countries, and their effect on academic freedom, and calls for scientific organizations to get involved to defend academic freedom. I don't know if this missive is directed at without wanting to give the initiative publicity by mentioning its name, but I hope so. To me this editorial sounds like just what the doctor ordered to organize a policy regarding our SOPA escapade and related future issues. Technically, advocacy like that could be said to run afoul of WP:NOT, so I think that some policy explaining and also limiting the scope of our efforts could be advisable, and so I'll propose WP:Academic freedom for consideration. Admittedly, I don't know how you or anyone else will react... Wnt (talk) 14:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Many people would say that there is a qualitative difference between the free dissemination the works of Crick and Watson, and the dissemination of the counterfeit drugs via GoogleAd riddled websites. SOPA was targeted at the later not the former. John lilburne (talk) 17:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

SOPA wasn't targeted. Formerip (talk) 17:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

So Google said as they got their shills to brew up a cauldron of FUD. John lilburne (talk) 18:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

SOPA was broader than what some people claimed to be about. If it allows censorship for virtually any reason, but proponents say "it's for counterfeit drugs", you're a fool if you believe that it's going to be limited to counterfeit drugs. "The law lets us do anything but we promise only to use it for this innocuous reason" never works out. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• sigh* Judges are simple souls "primarily designed or operated for the purpose of offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates infringement, circumvention or counterfeiting, have only limited purpose or use other than offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates infringement, circumvention or counterfeiting, or be marketed by its operator or another acting in concert with that operator for use in offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates infringement, circumvention or counterfeiting" and will read the highlighted phrases to mean what they say in plain English. There was no over-reaching in SOPA - you were duped by Google shills. John lilburne (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You can bold the text however you want, but the problem remains. "enables" means software that is not itself an infringement, but simply doesn't have censorship built in from the ground up. I don't trust Google at all, but every once in a while a big company ends up on the right side of an issue just by accident - especially when a law is so fundamentally un-American that it is at odds with the whole fabric of our society. Wnt (talk) 20:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

The key in that section is primarily designed or operated for the purpose if it neither primarily designed or operated for the purpose then what it enables is quite irrelevant. John lilburne (talk) 21:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Primarily designed for the purpose of offering goods and services. With the effect of "enabling" something. Not a narrow effect. But I'm capping this off now - anyone who thinks that SETI can communicate with alien life has never seen the two of us try to talk about anything. Wnt (talk) 00:13, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

While it wasn't Misplaced Pages's issue with the bill, I should also point out that SOPA rolled back protections for generic drugs as part of its language against "counterfeit" drugs. And as described in the article, it supported the criminalization of sale of brand-name, licensed prescription drugs by Canadian pharmacies - something Google had already been fined $500 million for before passage of the bill. Why exactly it's a national policy imperative to make Americans pay more for everything than people in other countries, I can't speculate (see also grey market); but if one views it as a matter of corruption... Wnt (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I hope you aren't editing articles like that! Firstly the NYT article is about ACTA not SOPA, and secondly it quotes someone making an assertion that ACTA "appeared to roll back protections for generic drugs by lumping them in with counterfeit drugs" not that it did but that it appeared to. John lilburne (talk) 21:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sigh... I was rushing because I was off topic. Already. My proposal concerns academic freedom, and this sorry parade of anti-"counterfeit"s is another issue. Wnt (talk) 22:28, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Twas you that added SOPA into the title of this thread, and linked to stopthetrap.net which appears to be more about freedom to pirate movies and songs, rather than academic freedom. John lilburne (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You don't suppose that being afraid to look at a source without knowing what it is first might interfere with our fact-checking a little? Wnt (talk) 23:10, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You tell me! One source is about academic freedom and Iranian crackdowns on a religion, plus a discussion on the Chinese and Russian governments doing what Chinese and Russian governments do. Your second link is to some amalgamation of Google funded groups banging on about how horrid it is that people are trying to protect their human rights via international agreements. John lilburne (talk) 23:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

And to respond to Wnt's concern about why prescription drugs, specifically, cost more in the USA than in Canada, it's a matter of law in both countries.

Manipulation of RFAs in de:WP

Hi Jimbo. The german Checkuser Kulac detected massiv Manipulations of RFAs in de:WP: by Sockpuppets Email-Anfrage. We are discussing possible consequences in the german Admins noticeboards. Greetings -- Andreas Werle (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2012 (UTC)