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	Is there any Slavic language, other than Russian, in which every unstressed (original) /o/ becomes /a/? ] (]) 18:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)		Is there any Slavic language, other than Russian, in which every unstressed (original) /o/ becomes /a/? ] (]) 18:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
	:Yes, read the stub, it's called ]. ] (]) 19:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)		:Yes, read the stub, it's called ]. ] (]) 19:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

			== paunch ==

			What's perfect meaning? "A fat abdomen" or just "Abdomen" ?

Revision as of 21:37, 28 July 2012

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July 20

Russian

What is the equivalent of surgical technologist in russian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.74.50.52 (talk) 03:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Google Translate gives this: хирургическая технолог--William Thweatt 03:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugh! That's a feminine adjective juxtaposed with a masculine noun, which is known in academic circles as a "nyet-nyet". The correct adjective is хирургический. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 11:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was common knowledge that "nyet-nyet"s and a chuckle are all you get from Google Translate.--William Thweatt 17:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Russian hospitals are organized differently from American ones, so there might not be an exact equivalent. Yandex gives two translations of "surgical technician": фельдшер хирургического отделения (physician assistant of the surgical department) and операционная сестра (operational nurse ). Lesgles (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

beside or around?

A. As for my new apartment, it's in a great location beside the park. B. As for my new apartment, it's in a great location around the park. According to my answer key, the correct answer is A. Why is B wrong? Thank you. 203.240.243.100 (talk) 06:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, "around" could mean two things:

1) Encircling. It's unlikely that the apartment encircles the park.

2) Nearby. This might be correct, but it's rather vague. The potential for confusion with the first meaning is another reason to avoid this word. StuRat (talk) 06:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)One might write "there are numerous apartments around the park", but a single apartment must be in a single location, hence "beside the park", not around it. (The park could be around the apartment if the latter happened to be in the middle of the former.) Dbfirs 06:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Further to StuRat's answer above, I think pedants in the UK would consider the use of "around" in the sense of "nearby" or "on the perimeter of" to be incorrect, but the usage might be more common in the USA. Dbfirs 06:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

So, in the UK, you wouldn't say "I'll meet you somewhere around the entrance ?". StuRat (talk) 07:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No it would be "by the entrance", or "near the entrance". On the other hand if you were both going to the park with no particular plans to meet you could say "I might see you around". -- Q Chris (talk) 08:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well we might say "somewhere around the entrance" informally, especially if we meant one of many possible locations on the the perimeter of the entrance, but one wouldn't write it in a formal document. We'd be much more likely to say "somewhere near the entrance". Dbfirs 08:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

As an American I would cock my head like a confused dog if someone ever said "B". Around is not used in this way. "A" on the other hand is comprehensible though it sounds very British to me and would not be common. "Nearby to" or "nearby" or related expressions would be more expected. "I'll meet you somewhere around the entrance" is different than the use of around in the OP and might be heard.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you confuse A and B ? Also, what is "ns might be heard" ? StuRat (talk) 09:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugg, just a typo, fixed. Yes, I reversed them also fixed. I think I forgot to eat my Wheaties this morning (an expression that may not be familiar to non-Americans:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Not familiar, but easily understood. (We might say "Weetabix".) I agree that "around the entrance" is a different usage, but I struggled to explain the difference (so I didn't). A British Estate Agent (Realtor in the USA?) would be more likely to say "overlooking the park" (even if only one small window had the required view). Dbfirs 11:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

This is rather beside the point, but, when trying to sell a house, an American realtor would never overlook the park view, in fact they'd get around to it right away. (Why watch TV when you can view muggings from your own window ?) :-) StuRat (talk) 20:33, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

In British English, beside the park and nearby, near or near to the park have different meanings. The former is next to, literally alongside, although not necessarily overlooking; the latter close to, in the vicinity of. We'd never say nearby to. Bazza (talk) 13:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The issue arises due to a conflict in the implications of the words "location" and "around". A location is a specific place implicitly conceived of as unitary. The primary sense of around is surrounding, encompassing, enclosing. Using those senses, we cannot see the location of an apartment (basically, a street address) encompassing a park. Nevertheless you could interpret the words differently. The word around can be used to imply lack of specificity. He arrived around noon means close to noon, not before and after noon. As above, if you say you will meet someone around the park entrance, you are implying you will be within eyesight of the entrance, maybe at a nearby shop or bench. As for location, its unity is relative. One could say, in regards to New York City the best location to build a hotel is around Central Park.

Back to the original sentences and paraphrasing them, the first sentence is probably saying, "My new apartment is in a great location; my new apartment is beside the park." The second sentence could not work that way. You can't say "My new apartment is in a great location" (i.e., specific place) and "my new apartment is around the park" implying it either surrounds the park (impossible) or is somewhere near the park (i.e., non-specific place). That is either nonsense or a contradiction. Nevertheless, you can analyze the sentence to mean: "My new apartment is in a great location; the location is around the park." That might make sense if you had just said, "I couldn't stand the neighbourhood I just moved out of; so close to the dump it always stank." The trick with tests like these is always to choose the better answer. The first sentence raises no flags. The second option would only work if you made a whole lot of assumptions which simply weren't provided to you in evidence. μηδείς (talk) 17:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Song lyrics in Zulu: syllable division?

As I have no audio access to speakers of Zulu and haven't succeeded in puzzling out its pronunciation, I'd appreciate some guidance here on where the syllables break in the lyrics to Siyahamba:

Siyahamba ekukhanyeni kwenkos'

Thank you, Deborahjay (talk) 17:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it a go even though I don't know Zulu as such, as a South African familiar with our national anthem and hearing spoken Zulu quite often, this should be pretty accurate -

Siya|hamba eku|khan|yeni kwen|kos'

Roger (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I have studied Zulu. Zulu syllables end in vowels, nasals can be syllabic, penultimate syllables are long: si-ya-ha:-mba e-ku-kha-nye:-ni kwe-n-ko:s. The final s in the last word is due to the dropping of the final vowel. The phrase means "we-walk into-the-light of-the-lord". Clement M. Doke's hard to find Text-book of Zulu Grammar is the definitive reference of the Zulu language. The site http://isizulu.net/ is incredibly good, with one of the best interactive translating dictionaries of any language I have come across on line. μηδείς (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Sang this song in Sunday school in Norway in the 1980s. We used the syllable division Roger gives above (the -mba blending into the next e). Of course, that is not any proof as I doubt anyone who had taught it to anyone who taught it to me knew any Zulu... Jørgen (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The only real problem with Roger's suggestion is that it is e-ku-kha-nye:-ni, not e-ku-khan-ye:-ni; it's a paltalized initial nye, not a final n followed by a y in the next syllable. For some reason he has only attempted some of the syllable breaks, not all. μηδείς (talk) 20:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, are you sure it's kwe-n-kos? I'm not sure about Zulu, but in Xhosa, the "n" in Class 5 nouns is never syllabic, so: kwe-nko-s(i). 67.158.4.158 (talk) 21:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, it's not syllabic, but it's not inherent to the root either, which is why I separated it, since the plural is amakhosi. Perhaps historically it's a contraction? I'll post a question on the forum at isiZulu.net μηδείς (talk) 22:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No it's not inherent to the root; (not sure what you mean by "contraction"). The Class 5 prefix is iN-, where the "N" assimilates to the place of articulation of a following occlusive, and aspirated stops lose their aspiration when they're prenasalized. So //iN-khosi// -> inkosi. 67.158.4.158 (talk) 06:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Not that anyone cares, but I just remembered that I made a mistake: the iN- class is class number 7, not class number 5. Oops.67.158.4.158 (talk) 11:05, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

OP adds: I neglected to state in phrasing my query, that while the morphology aspects are relevant for understanding the text, my primary interest is phonologic - to learn and teach the song in my community. At least one local immigrant from South Africa speaks Afrikaans and others picked up a smattering of Zulu or Xhosa as children, but I'd rather take this opportunity to get the pronunciation right. Once I get past the syllable breaks, I can consult the IPA table on the Zulu language page. I'd also appreciate if anyone has a preferred rendition to recommend on YouTube. -- Thanks to you all, Deborahjay (talk) 08:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The syllable breaks are: si-ya-ha:-mba e-ku-kha-nye:-ni kwe-nko:s, where the colons indicate a vowel lengthening rather more pronounced than you would expect in English. You can ignore the intervening discussion. I wouldn't worry too much about the syllable initial nasals from the viewpoint of an English speaker either; just say hamba and kwenkos as you would in English, with the n in kwenkos an ng sound, not a pure n. (The isiZulu.net website gives the IPA pronunciations if you want them, no need to figure it out from the article.) The only tricky consonants are the k's. The kh is an aspirated k identical to the standard initial English k as in kitchen, not like the ch sound of loch or Bach. The first intervocalic k in ekukhanyeni is the voiced implosive ɠ—an english g will be a reasonable substitution if you can't pronounce the . All the other k's are unaspirated as in Russian or the hard c in French or Spanish. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

PS, lengthened penultimate /e/ and /o/ followed by a high vowel ('i' or 'u') in the final syllable is raised from the usual and to and . This applies to the seond 'e' in ekukhanyeni and the 'o' in kwenkos. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

July 21

Translate Arabic(?)

What does the arabic text in say? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.74.238 (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess "Global Security Institute in Washington"? (With Washington spelled wrong.) I don't get it... Adam Bishop (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

"Washington" had the last two letters cut off because it didn't fit into the allotted space at the chosen fontsize, I guess.... AnonMoos (talk) 16:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The Arabic text is not meant to be understood. 18% answer YES, there are too many foreigners, 82%, the too many foreigners, answer "معهد الأمن العالمي في واشنط. The author of it just put some Arabic text there, even he didn't understand it. OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, the stupidity of racists. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it racist, given the exaggerated number of foreigners (82%!), I believe it's ironic. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

July 22

Which is a mathematical term (geometry): period, stage, section, phase.

Sorry, my English is not perfect.

I tried to search the word "szakasz" in online Hungarian->English dictionaries. But I do not know which is the mathematical term (in geometry): period, stage, section, phase. This a part of a straight line, limited with 2 points in the line. The 2 points determines this, always exists a straight line through the points, if the 2 points are not identical (the same), the line is unambiguous. This has length and direction. Two of this can cross one other, can be parallel, in one line, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.21.186.170 (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you correctly, that's called a line segment, or informally just a "segment", in English. Deor (talk) 11:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Given that the 'line' has direction, I am tempted to say that it's a Euclidean vector: "A Euclidean vector is frequently represented by a line segment with a definite direction". However, that article is iw-linked to Hungarian hu:Vektor, so I guess that might not be the word that the OP is asking for. V85 (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Given that the OP mentioned parallel but not antiparallel, and said nothing to suggest considering the endpoints as an ordered pair, I read direction as not including sense. (hmm, Sense (disambiguation) does not include the sense of sense that I have in mind.) —Tamfang (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

See wikt:szakasz and wikt:line segment.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Spänn/spenn

What exactly does spänn (Swedish) or spenn (Danish/Norwegian) mean? I understand it's used as an alternative term for the local currency, but I have never understood the exact details and implications behind the word. Is it simply a cool slang term or an everyday word with intrinsic meaning? My best guess is that it means something like "worth", for example femtio spänn means "fifty's worth" (in Finnish we would say viidenkymmenen edestä or, simply viidelläkymmenellä). Is this right? JIP | Talk 21:31, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

See sv:wikt:spänn --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 22:55, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't help English speakers. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 02:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

As a Norwegian speaker, I'd say, yes, it's just 'cool term' for money. So 'femti spenn' = 50 kroner, much like 'five bucks' is $5. I don't think your attempt at 'translating' it to 'worth' is right, as no one would ever say: Den har fem kroners verdi. (But Den er verd fem kroner.) It's just used as a replacement for 'kroner/kronor', whereas if it had the meaning 'worth', it might've been necessary to change the grammatical formula.

According to the Swedish Wiktionary page, it says that 'spänn' comes from 'spänna' (v) which is borrowed from English 'spend'. I would guess that the Norwegian term has been borrowed from Swedish. V85 (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Swedish seems to have been borrowing rather freely from English. A number of Swedes I've met insist that the verb for "adding" someone (on an instant message service, Facebook, or whatever) is "adda", not the usual "lägga till". (Personally, I find it annoying and strange. If you're going to speak English, just speak English, dammit.) dalahäst 07:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

BrEnglish has a number of slang terms for money used in the same way; see Quid, Nicker, Sov, Bob - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Mongol-era names of provinces of Burma in Chinese characters and in pinyin

The Mongols set up two separate provinces in Upper Burma after their invasions in the late 13th century. My sources say the first province with the provincial capital at Tagaung in northern Burma was named "Cheng-Mien" or "Chiang-Mien", supposedly meaning the "Burmese capital". It was set up around 1284/1285. The second province in central Burma was named "Chung-Mien" some time after the invasion of 1287. Would anyone know their Chinese and pinyin spellings? Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 16:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Just two educated guesses: 城緬 Chéng Miǎn / Ch'eng Mien, 中緬 Zhōng Miǎn / Chung Mien. (Simplified, they are 城缅 & 中缅) --151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that's quick. Thanks! I think your guesses are good. Just found this book by Marco Polo which describes the "City of Mien", which must be Chéng Miǎn. Zhōng Miǎn makes sense too since it was in central Burma. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Chinese Misplaced Pages's list of provinces of the Yuan empire only has Mianzhong (缅中): zh:緬中行省, but notes that it was also known as Zhengmian (征緬). Hybernator, I note that Zhengmian would have been transliterated in W-G as "Cheng-mien", and Mianzhong as "Mien-chung", which seems similar to what your source suggests. Based on some brief searches these names are also reflected in other sources.

Is it possible that there was only one province but its name was changed as the political situation changed? Also, is it possible that your original source may have reversed the characters for the second name (i.e. from Mianzhong to Zhongmian)?

For completeness, these two names in traditional, simplified and pinyin are as follows:

T: 緬中行省 S: 缅中行省 P: Miǎnzhōng Xíngshěng

T: 征緬行省 S: 征缅行省 P: Zhēngmiǎn Xíngshěng

If it helps, "行省" is the customary abbreviation of "行中书省", a Yuan dynasty regional administrative function which is the direct ancestor of the Chinese "province" in later dynasties and even today. It is usually translated as "province" but literally meant "the Secretariat-in-action". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much. But what does (征緬) Zhēngmiǎn mean? The "City of Mien" reference in the Marco Polo book above seems to favor Chéngmiǎn (城緬) but apparently, it may not have been the true administrative/official name.

One of my two sources, (Htin Aung "A History of Burma" 1967: 70), says according to Chinese sources, Mongols set up the first province of "Chiang-mien" meaning "Burmese province" around 1284/1285. I think this W-G spelling is incorrect. Another source (Than Tun "History of Burma: A.D. 1300–1400" 1959) gives the spelling of Cheng-mien. Also only Htin Aung, again citing "Chinese sources", says the Mongols declared central Burma to be the second province of "Chung-mien" some time after 1287. (Than Tun 1959) doesn't say anything about Chung-mien. It only states that the Mongols abolished the province of Cheng-mien per the emperor's decree dated 4 April 1303. Nothing about "Chung-mien". But I can see your point about a change in the political situation leading to a name change. Mongols could have renamed the existing province from either Chéngmiǎn or Zhēngmiǎn to Miǎnzhōng after the 1287 invasion. So when they did abolish it, they abolished one province, not two. Anyway, now I know the official name was Miǎnzhōng. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 01:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Zhēngmiǎn (征緬) literally means "subjugating / conquering Mian (Burma)". I did try to search for references to Chéngmiǎn (城緬) as well but could not find any relevant references. Is it possible that "Capital of Mian" was a post facto (mis)interpretation by someone who saw the W-G "Chengmian" derived from Zhēngmiǎn (征緬)?

This may be relevant: in Chinese translations of Marco Polo the phrase you referred to ("city of Mian") tends to be translated as either "緬城" (Miancheng, "Mian city") or "緬州" (Mianzhou, "Mian prefecture"), but I am not sure to what extent the translators just made those names up based on a literal translation of Marco's words.

Another relevant note is that I found discussions in Chinese sources on the administrative divisions of the Yuan dynasty which suggested that the "expeditionary" xingshengs are different in nature from the other "administrative" xingshengs - while the latter are properly "provinces" similar to the xingshengs of the later dynasties, the former were almost purely military functions during invasions. It is suggested that Zhengmian at least definitely fell within the "expeditionary" category.--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Very informative. Could Zhēngmiǎn be translated as "Subjugated Burma"? If so, it could have been the name of the first "province" (or colony, or whatever). Now, staying with your "subjugating / conquering Mian (Burma)", it's quite probable that Zhēngmiǎn (a la Operation Subjugate Burma) was the name of the campaign, and Mianzhong Xíngshěng (Province of Central Burma) the name of the new province. Plausible, though we're still in the realm of speculation. I wonder if the Chinese Misplaced Pages's editors have cited an authoritative source (preferably one that cites the original records.) It'll help me put in the findings from this discussion in the Mongol invasions of Burma article. So far, all I've been able to confirm is that the names reported in my Burmese sources, although the authors say they got the names from Chinese sources, is at best incomplete. Anyway, if you do find anything, please reach out to me at my talk page. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 00:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

July 23

Mongol-era names of provinces of Burma in Chinese characters and in pinyin

Just two educated guesses: 城緬 Chéng Miǎn / Ch'eng Mien, 中緬 Zhōng Miǎn / Chung Mien. (Simplified, they are 城缅 & 中缅) --151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

For completeness, these two names in traditional, simplified and pinyin are as follows:

T: 緬中行省 S: 缅中行省 P: Miǎnzhōng Xíngshěng

T: 征緬行省 S: 征缅行省 P: Zhēngmiǎn Xíngshěng

Kanji for placenames

Apparently, some cities with a large historical Japanese presence have a kanji version of their name. For example: Honolulu/ホノルル > 花瑠璃, Sacramento/サクラメント > 桜府, Los Angeles/ロサンゼルス > 羅府. Now I‘m wondering if there is also a kanji version for other places which have/had a similarly significative Japanese population, in particular: Koror/コロール (which was also part of the Japanese Empire), Davao/ダバオ (before WW2 80% of the population was Japanese) and Broome/ブルーム. Thanks!--151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The kanji description has nothing to do with a large historical Japanese presence. As far as I searched, the three places do not have kanji description. See and . Oda Mari (talk) 09:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Concur. Kanjified foreign placenames have nothing to do with whether there was a Japanese population or not, as can be seen by this list (Mecca is among them, and I can't imagine Mecca having a significant Japanese population). Nelson's Kanji dictionary has a much more comprehensive list, though I do not have it at hand at the moment. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Swear marks"

Do we have an article about the use of strings of non-alpha, non-numeric characters to represent cursing?

E.g., "Where's the %&$\# dictionary?"

I expect this is covered somewhere in Misplaced Pages but I don't know how to search for such a thing.

Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 16:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Sort of. See Grawlix. Dismas| 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

As the second ref in that article indicates, another term (coined in 2006) for those strings of characters is obscenicons. See this blog entry for more. Deor (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

"Where's the %&$\# dictionary?" ... "How the Funk and Wagnalls should I know ?" StuRat (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

---------- Touché! Wanderer57 (talk) 23:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to all. I've learned the terms grawlix, reportedly coined in 1964, and obscenicons, obviously a newism (2006). My impression is that the use of such representations of profanity in cartoon and in print is considerably older. Is this so? Wanderer57 (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think you mean neologism. Dismas| 07:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I actually meant newism which is, I think, a neologism. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

DELIVRANCE

BONJOUR JE SUIS iVOIRIEN ET J'AI ETE CONSACRR PASTEUR DEPUIS JUILLET 2001 ET DEPUIS MON MINISTERE NE DECOLE PAS ET JE N'ARRIVE PAS A AVOIR D4ENFANT AVEC MON EPOUSE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.206.74.76 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Désolé, ceci est Misplaced Pages en anglais, l'encylopédie auquel chacun peut contribuer. Personne ici ne peut vous aider aux affaires familiales. --ColinFine (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

This being the English Ref Desk, I feel all Q's and A's should be translated into English. Here's the best I can do with the above:

HELLO I'm Ivorian AND I WAS PASTOR CONSACRR SINCE JULY 2001 AND SINCE MY MINISTRY AND DO NOT Page School I CAN NOT BE WITH MY WIFE AND KIDS - Preceding unsigned how added by 41.206.74.76 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, this is English Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia to which everyone can contribute. No one here can help you with family matters. - ColinFine (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

StuRat (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's trolling. My (non-machine) translation:

Hello, I am Ivoirien and I have been an ordained pastor since July 2001 and since my pastorage began I have not been able to 'take off' and I have been unable to have children with my wife.

The title, 'DELIVRANCE', is amusing - one asks God for 'délivrance' from misfortune, as in English you say 'deliver us from misfortune/sin/pestilence, etc., etc. (basically, 'Help me out'). 24.92.74.238 (talk) 20:58, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

good subtitled German films and television programmes

I'm looking to vastly improve my German and one of the strategies I would like to use is watching German films and television programmes with English subtitles. I've tried watching the Tatort Münster series but subtitles aren't available, and I understand probably less than half. Could someone knowledgable about German films please give me some good ideas for what to watch? I've thought of Das Boot (not really my kind of film) but am otherwise stuck! Many thanks. 92.13.77.141 (talk) 19:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Some people watch Heimat to improve their German, don't know whether with subtitles. Would like to read responses, because I think I should be doing exactly the same. I've downloaded some German novels, are you doing that too? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this strategy will work, because subtitles aren't always straight translations. Specifically, they often take short cuts for brevity. So, in English, "I am very glad to make your acquaintance" might become "Welcome", and presumably the same thing happens in German to English subtitles. StuRat (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd recommend watching non-German shows dubbed into German. The quality of German dubbing is astounding, and the voices are provided by professional voice actors who were hired specifically because they speak so clearly and perfectly. That's really important for me because I'm hard of hearing. I've personally watched the Star Trek TNG and Star Trek Voyager series. Other dubbed things I've watched are the 5-hour Italian film about Ludwik II of Bavaria called "" by Luchino Visconti (which was funny because even though the actors voices were dubbed into German, they still moved their hands like Italians- a little unsettling, actually) and the series, also Italian, but with an international cast including stellar performances by Birgitte Nielsen and Angela Molina. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I have a friend for whom Dominus Vobisdu's method works. He watches all his favorite movies dubbed into various languages. I can recommend The Lives of Others very highly, but haven't seen too many other films in German. Learning to sing songs is always good, and there are plenty of artists like the Beatles and Peter Gabriel with German covers. μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

(Multiple ec) It must depend on your own personal strategies for language learning, but I always find it very effective. In Spanish I read the subtitles at first and then find I need them less and less. I was really impressed by the subtitles on Spiral Gangs of Paris; I learned a lot about how to translate the French. It also works in the other direction, which is worth remembering. Monty Python subtitled in French. "Nous sommes une communauté anarcho-syndicaliste". Itsmejudith (talk) 20:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Of course, Monty Python also changed The Lumberjack Song from "...just like my dear papa" to "Uncle Walter", in German. StuRat (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

(Multiple multiple ec) When I was doing my German A Level I very much enjoyed watching Lola rennt in class. Since then, I've seen and liked Goodbye Lenin and The Baader Meinhof Complex, which was on the BBC recently. We also listened along to songs by Nena with the German lyrics - my experience of learning Swedish leads me to recommend finding folk songs or similar, and getting the lyrics. Once you get a bit more proficient, also try watching German films with German subtitles, which allows you to confirm that what you think is being said is the same as what's actually said. Another thing you could try is to find a German radio station that plays the sort of music you might ordinarily listen to and just put it on in the background while you're working or doing the housework. Don't worry if you don't understand anything - that's not the point. The idea is to pick up the accent and phrasing of things by osmosis. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

What nice ideas. Haven't yet tried in German but have tried similar strategies in French. I was listening to the radio and thinking about how my old French teacher must be turning in her grave "un très bon aprem à tous et à toutes". I don't think you can rapidly improve your skills without a lot of enjoyment, unlike the school approach, if it ain't hurting it ain't working. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Inspector Rex? The dialect is apparently Austrian. Zoonoses (talk) 21:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I second Domins Vobisdu's recommendation above about watching dubbed movies and TV series, although in general I think you should steer clear of dubbed-to-German Hollywood movies - the problem being that dubbed TV shows and dubbed movies are handled completely differently by completely different people. Dubbed movies with big Hollywood stars are generally using a rather small cast of high-profile voice actors, most of whom regularly dub several actors (the German voice of William Shatner is the same as that of Sean Connery, Bruce Willis is the same voice actor as Sylvester Stallone etc) - meaning that most voices in German dubbed movies tend to sound the same, which I find seriously grating (this is probably not that much of a problem if you only watch a movie or two, but after a lifetime of watching dubbed movies on TV, I just can't stand the standard voice actors' voices any more). In TV shows, voice actors are generally selected by their ability to match the original actor's voice which leads to a much more varied and satisfying listening experience. In addition to Dominus Vobisdu's excellent Star Trek recommendation, you might also have a look at the German edition of the Simpsons - the voice actors are brilliant, and the translators generally did an impressive job of translating all the puns and little jokes. As far as German movies go, the best ones I've seen recently were the films based on the "Brenner" novels by Wolf Haas (Komm süßer Tod, Silentium and Der Knochenmann) and of course Indien, starring Josef Hader who also plays police inspector Brenner in the Wolf Haas movies. All of these are in rather heavy Austrian dialect, so they might be a bit difficult to understand if you're just beginnging to watch German movies. If you like absurdist, slightly pythonesque humor, try some of the Helge Schneider movies and the old eponymous TV series by Loriot - the latter especially is a great way to pick up on your language skills as part of the series' humor is that most everyone is talking in an incredibly well-pronounced, exact and extremely grammatically correct tone -- Ferkelparade π 22:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Let me endorse the three films mentioned above, Lola rennt, Goodbye Lenin, and The Baader Meinhof Complex. Some other excellent recent German-language films that come to mind:

The Forest for the Trees (Der Wald vor lauter Bäumen);
Transfer;
Cherry Blossoms (Kirschblüten - Hanami);
The Legend of Rita (Die Stille nach dem Schuß);
The Tunnel (2001 film) (Der Tunnel);
The White Ribbon (Das Weisse Band); and
Alles auf Zucker!.

—Mathew5000 (talk) 23:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

OP here: These are such excellent, helpful, informative answers, with lots of great ideas. Thank you all VERY much! I will definitely look into these. To Itsmejudith, I'm using fairy tales in German for practice also, not novels. I figured my familiarity with the folk tales, like Hansel and Gretel, would help a lot with following along, as well as their general tendency to be written in a more child-friendly, simple way. (Not that I am a child!) 92.13.77.141 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as something worth watching subtitled, I quite enjoyed (without speaking a lick of German) "The Edukators" (Die Fetten Jahre sind vorbei), and of course M (1931 film), with the masterful Peter Lorre. ☯.Zen Swashbuckler.☠ 18:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The word "paraphrase"

Is the following usage of paraphrase erroneous?: “He paraphrased Burns: ‘A spy's a spy for all that.’” (John le Carré, The Secret Pilgrim (1991), page 10, referring to “Is There for Honest Poverty”.) I always thought that paraphrase meant “to recast a statement in your own words while preserving the meaning”, and I never understood why some people use it as “to alter a famous quotation by a few words so that it refers to a completely different context”. When and how did the latter usage of “paraphrase” arise? I thought it was very recent, but there it is in the le Carré novel from 20 years ago. Is this usage considered standard English? Mathew5000 (talk) 23:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The usage in this sense of deliberate changing the original, using the form but not the meaning, is not uncommon. The on-line OED entry doesn't address the matter directly, the examples it gives of usage are all in the main, literal sense. μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what μηδείς saw, but the Oxford English Dictionary's online edition lists as the "1. c" sense of the verb "to paraphrase" the following -- "To adapt, appropriate, or alter the wording of (a saying or quotation) or the words of (an author or speaker) to suit one's own purpose. Usu. in infinitive at the head of an introductory clause." The OED provides five example sentences, the earliest of which is from 1841, and reads "To paraphrase Mark Antony, we come to criticise Mr. Anthon, not to praise him." I'd say it's very standard, and I've encountered it frequently in print and the spoken word. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 05:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I swear, I thought I read the whole thing. μηδείς (talk) 17:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I find the sentence and sense works quite well. How would you have the sentence read? 84.3.160.86 (talk) 16:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Jwrosenzweig. Mathew5000 (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

More than just paraphrasing is taking place when one swaps out parts of a phrase for other parts. One can borrow from, adapt, or retool preexisting phrases, statements, or aphorisms, but this is not simply paraphrasing. The core meaning of paraphrase is simply to recast into other words, as I think Mathew5000 correctly points out with the opening question. Bus stop (talk) 15:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

You may think that, but usage is king. And the OED example that Jwrosenzweig quotes above has multiple examples of the sense "adapt, appropriate, or alter the wording of (a saying or quotation) or the words of (an author or speaker) to suit one's own purpose" going back to the 19th Century. Valiantis (talk) 22:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the core meaning is found at dictionaries such as these:

"A restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words…"

"a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form"

"1. ) a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording; 2. ) the act or process of restating or rewording."

Usage is king. I think the OED is showing us that liberties are often taken with the quintessential meaning of the term. Bus stop (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The OED is a record of usage. It tends to mark usages that are widely considered as erroneous as erroneous, and won't include a usage if there isn't sufficient evidence that it has significant usage in the English corpus. The examples show us that competent writers such as Thomas Hardy and Philip Larkin, as well as the Times (of London), (to give three of the examples) have used the word "paraphrase" in the same way as Le Carré does in the OP's initial post for well over a century - and by implication, many other users of the language have done so too. There is no possibility for confusion in this usage of the word as it's clear from the phrase that's been altered that "alteration of a saying or quotation" is the intended sense. Valiantis (talk) 13:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

You say that "There is no possibility for confusion in this usage of the word…" I agree, as concerns the examples cited. In my opinion there is nothing incorrect about using any word in an off-definitional way unless there is the possibility for miscommunication. If an instance comes up (I don't know of one) in which the wider definition of "paraphrase" that the OED may be condoning, allows for confusion, then in that instance I think we would have to say that "paraphrase" is being used incorrectly, because it is straying from its core definition and thereby introducing imprecision that may not be deemed tolerable. I would think that many terms could be and are used in ways that stray slightly from precisely what they mean. But if an instance arose in which a term's unorthodox meaning clouded clear communication I think we would have to consider that usage incorrect. Bus stop (talk) 17:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

July 24

Connecting the unconnectable

What is it called when 2 facts that have no connection, other than both relating to the same person, are put together in a sentence like this (from Sally Ride):

Of Norwegian ancestry, she had one sibling, Karen "Bear" Ride, who is a Presbyterian minister.

What has her Norwegian ancestry got to do with how many siblings she had? I see this sort of thing all over WP, and I often wonder what causes editors to combine unrelated facts in this way. I could understand it better if it had been:

Of Norwegian ancestry, she had blue eyes and blonde hair.

Also, what's the introductory phrase/clause Of Norwegian ancestry an example of? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 03:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It's an absolute construction, particularly the genitive absolute. I would say it's not totally egregious, since comments about her ancestry and her siblingry both deal with her family(ry). μηδείς (talk) 03:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe not a hanging offence here, but I could find some real doozies. One I saw the other day went something like: "Born in 1823, his first success as a composer came with his oratorio "Blah-blah" in 1851". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 04:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

There is supposed to be some sort of relevance, and it does raise the question whether all Norwegians have one sibling. μηδείς (talk) 04:23, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, and thanks for the answer to my other question. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 06:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a fairly common construction in obituaries, presumably because having one short fact per sentence might enter into Hemingway territory. I knew it wouldn't take me long to find one in the wild; this one is from today's AP science wire:

Born on May 26, 1951, in Los Angeles' San Fernando Valley, Ride became fascinated with science early on, playing with a chemistry kit and telescope.

Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 05:07, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. Given that many of our biographical articles are sourced from obits, it's no wonder that obituary style has crept in all over the place. A lot of editors seems to feel that at least one example of this type of construction per article (sometimes even one per section) is essential for good writing. How mistaken they are. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 06:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I would say it's a non sequitur.--Shantavira| 05:39, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

"Born on May 26" is a (past) participial phrase, not a genitive absolute. Non sequitur is usually used of logical arguments, not parts of a sentence. μηδείς (talk) 06:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

From a strict grammatical sense, the sentence mentioned by JackofOz above is wrong.

"Born in 1823, his first success as a composer came with his oratorio "Blah-blah" in 1851"

You need a noun, after "Born in 1823", otherwise it is is considered a Dangling modifier. The sentence should be re-written; one correct version is as follows:

"Born in 1823, John first experienced success as a composer with his oratorio "Blah-blah" in 1851"

The original sentence makes it seem that the success (instead of John) was born in 1823, which is illogical. Modifier phrases can be tricky. _{Hisham1987 (talk) 08:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)}

Your point is valid (even though Misplaced Pages seems to provide safe haven for as many dangling modifiers as people can dream up). However, this thread wouldn't really be the best place to make your point, as the point of my example was to show the apparent disconnection between being born in 1823 and having his first success as a composer 28 years later. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 08:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

JackofOZ: Oops. Sorry this came out the wrong way. I was actually trying to explain to the OP that although connecting seemingly unrelated ideas is discouraged, the English grammar permits us to do so - through the use of phrase modifiers that modify nouns. For example:

"Born in 1823, John first experienced success as a composer with his oratorio "Blah-blah" in 1851"

This sentence is grammatically correct; however, it is tedious to read since it contains two unrelated facts modifying the same noun (John): Grammatically permissible but discouraged. _{Hisham1987 (talk) 12:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)}

I'm the OP here. Sure, many sentences are perfectly grammatical in themselves, but fail on other grounds, such as illogicality ("Three plus three equals 97"), inaccuracy ("Henry VIII died in 1947"), impossibility ("My father had 7,328 siblings"), etc. The sentences I'm asking about are generally grammatical in themselves but fail on the ground of connecting things that should not be connected. If, in addition, they happen to be constructed ungrammatically via the use of dangling modifiers or whatever else, that's a further nail in their coffin but that is merely the icing on the cake, to mix my metaphors. As I say, I don't disagree with your point, but it's not central to my question. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 20:54, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Let's call it a kitchen sink sentence. I wouldn't be surprised if Fowler's Modern English Usage has a clever term for it, but it's impossible to find anything in Fowler because I don't know where my copy is. —Tamfang (talk) 08:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I like that. You should see the ... matter that is sometimes discovered in my kitchen sink. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 12:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Or, better: grab bag sentence. —Tamfang (talk) 07:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Spanish translation

Can someone help me translate this paragrpah for an article? The google translations are a bit hard to understand.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

El sepulcro que contiene los restos de Inés Rodríguez Girón es más pequeño que el que contiene los restos de su esposo. El estilo demuestras que ambos fueron realizados en la misma época. El sepulcro sólo tiene labor escultórica en los costados, pero no en la cabecera ni en los pies. Sobre la tapa del sepulcro aparece colocada la estatua yacente que representa a la difunta. La cabeza de Inés Rodríguez descansa sobre tres almohadones, al igual que la de su esposo.

It's demuestra , not demuestras. Following google translate with the corrected verb and a few tweaks: "The tomb containing the remains of Inés Rodríguez Girón is smaller than the one containing the remains of her husband. The style shows that both were done at the same time. The tomb only has sculpture work on the sides, but not at the head or feet. On the lid of the tomb appears a recumbent statue representing the deceased. Ines Rodriguez's head rests on three pillows, like that of her husband." μηδείς (talk) 03:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

expression about Great Inventions

"It is solemnly hoped that someday a genius will come along and invent something that will make golf unnecessary." It's is just one of the ten expressions I'm studying and I don't understand what it means. Any insight about it is appreciated. 203.240.243.100 (talk) 07:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

"It is solemnly hoped that" -> I/We wish that
"someday" -> at some time in the future
"a genius" -> a clever person
"will come along and invent something that will" -> will make something new that will
"make golf unnecessary" mean that golf is not needed

"I wish that at some time in the future a clever person will make something new that will mean that golf is not needed" - that is, the writer does not enjoy the game of Golf, so he/she is making a joke that they want someone to have an idea that means they don't need to play any more. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like something Douglas Adams would write. Of course, is golf really necessary to begin with? Evanh2008 07:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the context in which you're studying these ten expressions? Who chose them, and what are you hoping to achieve? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 08:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

This seems like a caption to a cartoon in The New Yorker. A google search gets a bunch of posts in fora around Nov 2011 and nothing else. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Correct sentence

Check which of the following sentences (bold parts) are correct according to English grammar.
1) I am good at Maths, Physics, Biology, History, etc.
I am good at Maths, Physics, Biology, History etc.
2) Mahatma Gandhi said, "Honesty is the best policy."
Mahatma Gandhi said, "Honesty is the best policy".
--Sunny Singh 14:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunnysinghthebaba (talk • contribs)

We know that these are homework questions, because we had to do questions like these ourselves. Have a look at our article comma and also check your textbook or class notes. Note that comma rules vary in English-speaking countries, and punctuation of reported speech can differ between manuscript and printed text. Come back if you still have questions. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:37, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not actually "grammar" at all, but differing punctuation conventions... AnonMoos (talk) 15:37, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The first of each pair is the correct sentence. I have never seen anyone use etc. without a preceding comma. (It needs a period after it, BTW, since it is an abbreviation.) The placement of a period outside of quotation marks is encouraged at[REDACTED] when the punctuation isn't logically part of the quote itself. This can contradict standard usage which demands we always place the punctuation inside. In this case[REDACTED] would go with convention and the first sentence, since Gandhi made a complete statement ending in a period that we are quoting in full. See Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_inside_or_outside. But keep in mid those guidelines are not generally accpeted, most people still insist that this example[REDACTED] gives as correct:

Arthur said that the situation was "deplorable".

is improper. I happen to prefer wikipedia's conventions and use it wherever I am not writing according to a teacher's or employer's standard. μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

When you say "standard usage" and "most people", I think you mean "standard usage in the USA" and "most people in the USA". Elsewhere, there is no rule demanding we always place the punctuation inside. If the punctuation is not inherently part of the quotation but simply part of the sentence in which the quotation appears, it is placed outside the quotation in most parts of the anglo world. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 20:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you give a reference for an English or Australian manual of style published before 1990 which would mandate in favor of the period outside the quotes format of the "Arthur" example above? I have a Kiwi friend aged 50 who would have a heart attack if he saw that in print. I have never heard that the US has some odd preference in this matter compared to tradition. μηδείς (talk) 22:14, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't wikipedia's conventions downcase "honesty"? See . --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

No, that change to the MOS was ill-considered and not in accord with the usual capitalization of quotations that are complete sentences. I've just reverted it. Deor (talk) 19:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Reference for Medeis's query: Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (Second Edition) (published by the OUP copyright 1968, reprinted 1982 (with corrections) says, under its section on 'Stops' sub-heading 'Inverted Commas' starting with the first full paragraph of the second column on page 591:

Questions of order between inverted commas and stops are much debated and a writer's personal preference often conflicts with the style rules of editors and publishers. There are two schools of thought, which might be called the conventional and the logical. The conventional prefers to put stops within the inverted commas, if it can be done without ambiguity, on the ground that this has a more pleasing appearance. The logical punctuates according to sense, and puts them outside except when they actually form part of the quotation.

It is the logical format that I was taught in Canada in the 1950s. Neither Gowers (who did the revisions in the second edition) nor Fowler ranked one above the other.

I also have a copy of The Macmillan Company's (New York) English Arts and Skills (1961), published for use in grade 10 of the Catholic Education Division which says the following on page 375, all in bold face:

3. When the end of the quotation is also the end of the sentence, the period falls inside the quotation marks. (examples omitted)

4. If the quoted words are a question or an exclamation, the question mark or the exclamation point falls inside the quotation marks. (examples omitted)

5. If the entire sentence is a question or an exclamation, the exclamation point or question mark falls outside the quotation marks. (examples omitted)

Nothing wishy-washy when the representatives of the Pope speak. Bielle (talk) 23:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Bielle, that's great. Odd to see the British preferring the logical over the traditional, given their spelling habits. I am surprised I never came across this in school, since we were warned of the royalist's generally bad habits. Perhaps it would have been too tempting. My Enzed friend will have a heart attack. μηδείς (talk) 02:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

We like to say the NZers are "more English than the English". How refreshing to find a counter-example. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 04:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

etc. without a preceding comma doesn't bother me (unlike Medeis). I'm also anti-Oxford. —Tamfang (talk) 08:38, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, if you look again at the quotation from Fowler' text, you will note that no preference is stated. In fact, as I read it, it is a very nice example of NPOV with respect to the two then-prevalent patterns. Bielle (talk) 16:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Only one of those sentences is correct in American English. Math is not maths so both in that set are wrong. Rmhermen (talk) 19:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Even I knew the OP wasn't asking for the correct way to abbreviate mathematics. You tempt me to toss a vache at you autrefois. μηδείς (talk) 22:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Italian after French - what to concentrate on

I'm learning Italian now after learning French quite deeply (for a foreign language), and am finding it quite easy due to how similar they are. Of course, this comes at a cost: while I can quickly guess the meaning of almost any sentence, perhaps I come to the wrong conclusion. So, are there "false friends" or the like for an English speaker who's learned French and is learning Italian? What are things to focus on (missing from French but in Italian; or quite different in Italian while resembling the French structurally; or simply structural differences I might not notice, producing sentences "a la francaise" without noticing how different Italian is.) Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.3.160.86 (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

You could try looking at FR-Wikitionary: Annexe:Faux-amis en italien, or FR-WikiBooks: Vrais amis italiens. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

thank you; I would appreciate even more like this. Neither link has any grammar mentioned at all. As someone who learned French well as an adult, it's tempting to "assume" things behave the same. I guess the French might have less of a problem seeing the differences (just as when learning German it's not really similar to English to me as an English speaker, and I don't use a lot of anglicisms; but Romance language speakers who first learn English then German or vice versa tend to get a lot more jumbled up!!). 84.3.160.86 (talk) 16:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

You might have to be careful with auxiliary verbs: sono stato vs j'ai été. —Tamfang (talk) 08:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

French poem translation

Hello, I would like to kindly request a translation of a poem by Cocteau found here. I'm interested in understanding what the poem tries to convey, so it would be nice to know what a french-speaker perceives from this poem in its original form. (For some reason the text uses double slashes for line breaks and quotation marks for stanza breaks.) Thanks in advance. --Kreachure (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

This blog has another variant of that poem (scroll down to Phénixologie). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 18:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine then, here's the text in poem form if it helps anyone translate. I had been warned to not put poems here because of copyright but whatever, I guess.

" phenixologie" à Lucien Clergue photographe ". Poësie autographe, signée. Baux-de-provence, 1959 ; une page 1 / 2 in-4. Au début cette note du poëte. " Ce poëme doit paraître comme préface à l'album des photographies de Lucien Clergue prises autour du travail de mon fil : Le teStament d'orphée.

Jusqu'où veut aller ce rêve taciturne ?

le monde en soi-même était mal travesti

la gloire abusant de son soleil nocturne

nimbait une Minerve au visage menti.

On les connaît ces espions romanesques

en fatal équilibre au bord de l'âge mûr

De Chef-d'oeuvre en Chef-d'OEuvre elles deviennent fresques

Douze jeunes soldats les clouant contre un mur.

Un pied sur le sol ferme un autre dans le sang

Je boîte vers l'appel du Val d'enfer des Baux

j'entre par les trous d'une funèbre éponge

Dans la nuit attentive au choix de nos tombeaux.

If you're having trouble with the meaning, then the translation alone will do. I really think it's not that long. Again, thanks in advance. --Kreachure (talk) 01:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The version above hardly seems correct. I have found this here:

“Jusqu’où veut-il aller ce rêve taciturne

où le monde en soi-même était travesti

Où la gloire brillait de son soleil nocturne

Nimbant une Minerve au visage meurtri.

On les connaît ces espionnes romanesques

En total équilibre au bord de l`âge mûr

De chef-d’oeuvre en chef-d'oeuvre elles deviennent fresques

Douze jeunes soldats les clouant contre un mur

Un pied sur le sol ferme un autre dans le songe

Je boite vers lappel du Val d’Enfer des Baux

Et j’orne par les trous de sa funèbre éponge

Une nuit attentive au choix de mes tombeaux.”

Here's a very loose and imperfect translation based on what I suspect is a flawed original lacking proper punctuation at best:

“Jusqu’où veut-il aller ce rêve taciturne

How far does this taciturn dream wish to go

où le monde en soi-même était travesti

where the world-in-itself was disguised,

Où la gloire brillait de son soleil nocturne

where shone the glory of the midnight sun,

Nimbant une Minerve au visage meurtri.

haloing a Minerva with a bruised face?

On les connaît ces espionnes romanesques

They were known, these novelesque spies

En total équilibre au bord de l`âge mûr

all balanced on the edge of middle age

De chef-d’oeuvre en chef-d'oeuvre elles deviennent fresques

from masterpiece to masterpiece they become frescoes:

Douze jeunes soldats les clouant contre un mur

twelve young soldiers, stuck against a wall

Un pied sur le sol ferme un autre dans le songe

one foot on solid earth, the other in a dream

Je boite vers lappel du Val d’Enfer des Baux

I limp towards the call from the valley of a leased-out hell

Et j’orne par les trous de sa funèbre éponge

and I ornament with the holes of its funereal sponge

Une nuit attentive au choix de mes tombeaux.”

for one careful night, the choice of my tomb

μηδείς (talk) 05:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Douze jeunes soldats les clouant contre un mur" should be "twelve young soldiers ~~stucking~~ sticking them against a wall" — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I interpreted the subject and verb as inverted here, seeing the soldiers (the twelve apostles?) turned to frescoes--a huge problem is the omitted punctuation--and the feminine form espionne makes no sense. Maybe the soldiers are nailing the spies. μηδείς (talk) 16:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I limp towards the Hell Valley of Les Baux. ... I decorate through the holes (or, with the holes) of its funereal sponge//a night that is attentive to the choice of my tomb. Near the start, "travestied" is closer than "disguised", with the possibility of the transvestism connotation. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that "Val d'Enfer des Baux" should be translated, may be it's worth a note to give an explanation. As mentionned here above Les Baux-de-Provence is a village located in South of France. Baux, in Occitan language, means "overhang", "cliff", "rocky escarpment" (see French WP ). This meaning is far away from "leased-out"! "Val d'Enfer" means "Hell valley". It's a common name for a place in France. I don't know if such a place exists in les Baux-de-Provence. (Aside: bauxite, the mineral from which aluminium is extracted, has its name derived from "Les Baux-de-Provence") — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for the translations and corrections. I think I can discern the meaning of most of the poem after chewing it over for a while. I don't think I'll ever find out what the heck a "funereal sponge" is, though... :) Kreachure (talk) 15:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

In hindsight the fact that Baux is capitalized leaves only the option of a place name. "Disguised" goes well with "the world in itself". A funeral sponge is used to clean the body before burial, which goes along with the twelve spies nailed to the wall--imagine the painting of the last supper.

(ec) Well, that solves the funeral sponge mystery! Baux is indeed where the poem was signed (and/or written?). The soldiers being the 12 apostles is an interesting idea, but as you remarked above, the 12 soldiers seem to be the ones who pin the spies-turned-frescoes onto the wall, and the spies themselves are female to begin with. --Kreachure (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Don'r rely on the translation being right; neither quoted version of the poem seems entirely correct. The accents and almost the certainly the punctuation is incorrect in both. If éponge were supposed to be épongé, for example, the meaning would be totally different. If anyone has a better source he should speak up. μηδείς (talk) 01:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The accents seem correct except in the bilingual part: "Je boite vers lappel du Val d’Enfer des Baux" should spell "Je boîte vers l'appel du Val d'Enfer des Baux". If you are particular: "chef-d'œuvre", not "chef d'oeuvre" (ligature). And trust me, it cannot be "épongé" instead of éponge. About the ponctuation: a full stop/period seems to be missing after "mur". Cocteau could have not use commas on purpose. — AldoSyrt (talk) 08:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

But compare lines 3-6 above: menti/meurtri, fatal/total, abusant/brillait, etc. The second version generally seems more likely, but not in all cases, and it is not unflawed. I don't think we can be sure we are translating what was actually written. μηδείς (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You are absolutly right. But it is possible that there exists at least two variants. I don't think it's matter of accentuation nor punctuation (in all variants commas are not used). Unfortunatly, it is obvious that all Web copies are flawed.

catalogue.drouot.com: "autour du travail de mon fil : Le teStament d'orphée" → "autour du travail de mon film : Le Testament d'Orphée"; "ces espions romanesques ... elles deviennent fresques" → "ces espionnes romanesques ... elles deviennent fresques" or (I don't think so) "ces espions romanesques ... ils deviennent fresques" ; upper cases missing at the beginning of some verses.

passouline.blog.lemonde.fr: "où le monde en soi-même était travesti" → "Où le monde en soi-même était travesti"; "De chef-d’oeuvre elles deviennent fresques" → "De chef-d’œuvre en chef-d'œuvre elles deviennent fresques"; "Je boite vers lappel du Val d’Enfer des Baux" → "Je boîte vers l'appel du Val d’Enfer des Baux"

oversized.over-blog.com/article-kholle-de-litte-numero-3-48457525.html: "où le monde en soi-même était travesti" → "Où le monde en soi-même était travesti"; "Je boite vers lappel du Val d’Enfer des Baux" → "Je boîte vers l'appel du Val d’Enfer des Baux"

— AldoSyrt (talk) 08:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Six questions left in french

I'm looking for a clear and concise way of saying "There are six questions left" for a questionnaire in French that will be read by French native speakers. My co-worker and I are French-as-a-second-language, so we can't quite tell what to say, but nothing we can think of feel right.

We have so far (accents not included)

Il y a six questions a la fin
Il y a six questions en suspense
Il y a six question de plus

Any other ideas? Mingmingla (talk) 22:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Il y a six questions qui reste
Il reste seulement six questions

--Tagishsimon (talk) 22:37, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Il reste seulement six questions should be Ils restent seulement six questions. and Il y a six questions qui reste should be Il y a six questions qui restent. μηδείς (talk) 02:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Il reste seulement six questions" is the correct sentence. Because "Il reste" is a "forme impersonnelle", like "il pleut". Hence the singular form. Whereas "Il y a six questions en suspense" should be "Il y a six questions en suspens." Aside: "Il reste six questions." seems to be the more concise. — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

One more: "Six questions restantes..." — AldoSyrt (talk) 08:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Il ne reste que six questions. Il ne vous reste que six questions. But I'm only near-native, like fhe ofher responses here. You need a native speaker to adjudicate now, preferably someone who has designed questionnaires. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:42, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Juste encore six petites questions. Et maintenant pour les dernières questions (il n'en vous reste que six).Itsmejudith (talk) 09:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

correction: (il ne vous en reste que six) --Xuxl (talk) 10:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

How did I do that! How would you say it XuXl? Itsmejudith (talk) 10:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Aldo's a native speaker, Judith. And Xuxl too? Adam Bishop (talk) 10:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The best sentence? It depends on the tone of the questionnaire. In most of cases, the simpler, the better! As a French native speaker, I would say : "Il reste six questions."; if the questionnaire is very long: "Il ne reste que six questions." — AldoSyrt (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Then how about Il y a six questions qui restent? Please tell me the subject-verb agreement is correct. μηδείς (talk) 16:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Perfect French! — AldoSyrt (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Have an Arabic speaker translate this Qadafi capture video

Template:Formerly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy1dsO-jKd0&feature=player_embedded&bpctr=1343175474&skipcontrinter=1

See, all I understand from the video is "Moammar!" and "Allahu Akbar," (God is Great.)

This was an exciting day for Libyans and pro-democracy individuals worldwide. The moment marked the fall of a die-hard dictator after a rule that spanned longer than I've been alive.

This is why that moment is worth translating.

Now, could anyone translate everything else that was said in the video? I know it's quite a lot of shouts, but please translate whatever is intelligible. Thanks. --70.179.170.114 (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

In harmony with WP:TPOC (point 13: Section headings), I am changing the heading of this section from Have an Arabic speaker translate this Qadafi capture video to Have an Arabic speaker translate this Qadafi capture video—in order to enable links to the archived section. In the future, someone may wish to link to this discussion in the archives, and square brackets in headings hinder the functioning of section links. See Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 63#Dysfunctional links in archived section headings (September 2009).

—Wavelength (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

July 25

Dustman's hat

What is a dustman's hat? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.27.211.61 (talk) 00:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Like http://www.rosemerena.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/goodolddays4.gif. And that's a dustman's 'at, by the way. You must get the accent right. Looie496 (talk) 02:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If you're talking about the lyrics of My Old Man's a Dustman, then I don't think it means any more than "a hat worn by a dustman". Even more mysterious are the "gor blimey trousers". Rojomoke (talk) 06:13, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That's because they are Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 26#Cor blimey trousers. But it might have originally been gorblimey. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Trousers that inspire a minced oath derived from God blind me!. —Tamfang (talk) 08:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Real Cockneys (not Mockneys) are more likely to say something that sounds closer to "dastman" than "dustman". Then again, I am a real Cockney and I say "dustman". We don't all sew stuff on our clothes, either. Cockneys in a marketplace selling stuff by the pound (weight) for £1 will shout something that sounds like "a pan a pan". And we come from "Landon". Further to the speculation in that old WP:RD/L link, I'd guess that cor-blimey trousers is a pun on corduroy. But that's 100% OR. --Dweller (talk) 08:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Also as worn by Stanley Holloway as Alfred P Doolittle in My Fair Lady (film). I dont know if it has a special name, but it's clearly designed to protect the dustman's head and neck from stuff falling out of bins (in the days when they lifted the bins onto their shoulders to tip them into the dust cart, rather than pulling them along on wheels and letting machinery do the lifting). A drawing of a more extravagant example is shown here. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's called a fan-tail (or fan-tailed) hat. We don't (yet) have an article on it, but it is listed in our list of headgear. The OED has only one citation, but Googling "fan-tailed hat" confirms this usage.--Shantavira| 15:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

tʃ and ʨ

What's the difference between the voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate and the simple tʃ? The recording on the VAPA article sounds to me just as if the speaker were saying tʃatʃ. Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you could give a link to the article you're talking about? μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I did. It's the only link in my question, aside from the links to my userspace. Nyttend (talk) 02:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

~~I am sorry, but when I look up the VAPA article, it has nothing to do with what you are talking about.~~ Oh, never mind. I see what you meant. μηδείς (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I still can't listen to the audio, even after having downloaded the driver from Java. I have my guesses about the difference in pronunciation from the written description, but don't want to give you polno hovno. Maybe someone can suggest why I, who use windows 7 on a gateway nv78, am having such trouble listening to the file? μηδείς (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Nyttend: Unless you have an extraordinarily sensitive and well trained ear, it's going to take you a long time to recognize the difference between tʃ and ʨ, especially in recordings. It's just too subtle a difference for the ear of an English speaker. You're just going to have to take it on faith that the difference is enormous and easily recognizable by natives of languages that distinguish the sounds. It took me months of hard practice to learn to distinguish and reproduce these sounds when I was learning Polish, and even after ten years of living in the country, I still have difficulty pronouncing them correctly. For that matter, try convincing a Polish learner of English that the English words "bad", "bat", "bed" and "bet" are all pronounced very differently, and you'll get a blank stare. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 06:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Is there any effort to create images of mouths as they produce certain sounds? I might better be able to understand this sound if I could be given a visual depiction of how I could approximate ʨ. Nyttend (talk) 12:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about pictures, but I can describe how to make the sound. The tʃ sound is made by placing the tip of the tongue on the palatal ridge, and the ʨ is made the exact same way, but with a spot more in the middle of the tongue. Try it and see if you can hear and feel the difference. Bakmoon (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

@Nyttend: That's not going to help you much, either. The difference is far too subtle for an English speaker to hear. You're going to have to have a real live speaker of Polish (or other language with these sounds) sit in front of you for hours over several days before you can reliably recognize the difference, and for a lot more hours over the space of a month or more before you can reliably reproduce it. At first, you might hear no difference at all. Like I said, even after ten years of speaking Polish living in Poland, I still have some problem with pronouncing it correctly unless I speak slowly and deliberately. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I just found Bakmoon's suggestion very helpful, and have no problem telling the difference between the two sounds pronounced. μηδείς (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

As an English speaker who can tell the difference between these sounds, I have found it frustrating to try to get other people to say them when telling them about such-and-such word in whatever language I happen to be studying / discussing with them: "No, you're saying , it's ." "Oh, OK, so it's ." "That's the same sound as the first one you made!" At least to my ear, the way is articulated causes it to sound slightly more "high-pitched" almost. It has that very characteristically Russian palatal noise to it, if you're familiar with that, though I doubt that description is particularly helpful for someone who cannot already differentiate the sounds. Bakmoon's description of the way the sound is created is good, and will likely cause many people to generate the sound correctly. (There is always that small risk when giving people descriptions of how to make a sound that they will exaggerate it and produce some other sound though, which is why it's easiest when you can hear the sound as the person is making it.) dalahäst 08:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I've searched for Serbo-Croatian samples on Forvo. In most Serbian dialects, <ć> /tɕ/ and <č> /tʂ/ are well-distinguished: you will certainly hear the difference in čokančić, and possibly hear the difference or /tɕ/ from English /tʃ/. Also check out Đoković, featuring /dʑ/. In many Croatian dialects, there is a merger. For example, both speakers pronounce Mohorovičić (Andrija Mohorovičić) with . However, the female at Boris Ljubičić has pretty clear . Hope this helps. No such user (talk) 09:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Help discussing with another user in Turkish

If you can help, please visit Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Odd_edits. Understanding of association football is not required! Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 09:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Anabolic effect

I often heard that doing squat has the anabolic effect on biceps. Here, what is the meaning of "Anabolic effect" or "Anabolic"? Thanks--180.234.204.204 (talk) 10:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the meaning you have in mind for "doing squat"? I can think of at least 2 equally likely meanings. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 12:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Embiggening. The word anabolic originates from the Greek for mound, and anabolism speaks of "building up". (I have no idea why a leg exercise would build up the arm muscles, but I won't question these things in case I'm made to try them. ) Card Zero (talk) 15:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Anabolic effects are generally thought of as hormonal changes that promote muscle growth, such as increases in testosterone. In a strictly technical sense, though, any type of muscle growth is an anabolic process, regardless of what produces it. Any type of weightlifting causes anabolic effects that promote muscle growth throughout the body, but the effects are not likely to be very large on muscles that are not directly exercised. Doing bicep exercises is likely to have a much larger effect. By the way, there are many different kinds of squats, as described in our squat (exercise) article. Looie496 (talk) 15:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

However, "doing squat" also has an informal meaning of "doing absolutely nothing". Nyttend (talk) 17:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hence my question above, seeking to know what the OP meant by that expression. The answers will vary wildly depending on what they're actually asking about. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 22:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Precisely, Jack; Looie and Card Zero didn't seem to observe your question. Nyttend (talk) 06:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I observed it, but I was 99.99% certain which meaning the OP intended. Looie496 (talk) 21:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Whence came that certainty? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant

How do I say /ɕ/? --146.7.96.200 (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a sound file on that article. Are you able to load it? Evanh2008 20:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

July 26

Vowels/Consonants at the End of Many Female/Male Names

How come in a lot of languages female names generally end with a vowel or a vowel-like sound (a, e, i, o, u) while male names generally end with a consonant or a consonant-like sound (ex. "Philippe" in French)? Futurist110 (talk) 04:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Philippe Petit is male. Be that as it may, the Latin-based languages typically have a trailing "a" to denote feminine gender, so it's reasonable they would do likewise with female names, including those derived from male names. "Paul" and "Paula" come to mind in English. You also have names like "Maria" and "Mario". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

moved here from the miscellaneous desk μηδείς (talk) 05:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The OP didn't say that people named "Philippe" were female. He was saying that although it ends in a vowel spelling-wise, it has a consonant sound at the end pronunciation-wise. And yes, Mario ends with a vowel sound but that is, IMO, an exception to what the OP has observed. They did say "generally" after all. And in general, they're right. And looking at the US in the article List of most popular given names, the OP is correct... in general. The most popular names in 2011 for the US were Jacob, Mason, William, Jayden, Noah, Michael, Ethan, Alexander, Aiden, and Daniel. And those that don't end in a consonant sound generally end in an 'O' sound such as Mario, Alejandro, Santiago, and Mateo. Dismas| 05:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

This phenomenon is largely restricted to the Indo-European languages. See Grammatical_gender#Indo-European. The -ā feminine is found in Greek, Italo-Celtic, and Balto-Slavic. In Germanic the -ā feminine changed to -ō. In the Indic languages the -ī feminine (Kali, Devi) was generalized. In the Semitic languages one finds an -(a)t feminine. μηδείς (talk) 05:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The -o and -a found in Romance languages, with the -a changed to -e in French, result from the reduced first and second declensions of Latin. The masculine consonat-final declension is common to Greek, Slavic and Latin, if not more widespread. μηδείς (talk) 05:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The Georgian language and the Eurasiatic languages except the Proto-Indo-European language lack gender. The latter probably acquired it as a reanlysis of its animacy system in conjunction with language contact form the North Caucasian languages which, like the Burushaski language and the Ket language gennerally have a four-part noun gender system. μηδείς (talk) 05:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Many female Japanese names end in -ko ("child") or -mi ("beauty") , but all Japanese names which do not end in syllabic -n end in a vowel. μηδείς (talk) 05:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis -- The -i feminine of Sanskrit seems to have developed partly in compensation for the fact that the "a", "e", and "o" vowels of Indo-European mrged in Sanskrit. AnonMoos (talk) 06:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

My understanding was this was a common proto-Indo-Iranian feature. Avestan has parallel feminine nouns in -i. See here, scroll to page 76.

Merger of "a", "e", and "o" to "a" was also a common proto-Indo-Iranian change, but I only mentioned Sanskrit because you spoke of "Indic languages"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The Italic Marius and the Semitic Maria have separate etymologies, although Maria could potentially be a feminine version of the Latin nomen Marius. μηδείς (talk) 05:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The original noun feminine suffix in the Semitic languages was "t", but a disappearance of word-final "t" after an "a" vowel in several languages has resulted in an appearance that "-a" is the Semitic feminine suffix, coincidental with Indo-European (though if you put such a feminine noun in the construct state, or the plural, or add a pronominal suffix, then the "t" will suddenly re-appear). However, the original form of "Maria" is "Miryam" or "Maryam", so it does not have such an "-a(t)" suffix... AnonMoos (talk) 06:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

To summarise and expand some of the answers above: in Latin and Greek (and the Slavonic languages), most masculine nouns end in a consonant, and many or most feminine nouns end in '-a'. Since many of our names come from Latin or Greek, many of them show the same pattern. As a matter of fact, Germanic (including Old English) did not show this pattern strongly, and many of the female names listed in Germanic name do not end in '-a', though some do. --ColinFine (talk) 19:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Am I wrong in remembering that there were native feminine Germanic words ending in -o due to the shift from a to o? μηδείς (talk) 21:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the backstory is behind the name John-Mary. Card Zero (talk) 19:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It is common for people in France and Spain (at least) to have two names: one personal, one that of a saint. The first name is the personal name and is gender-specific: the saint's name is not, it could be the favourite saint of the mother (or even a favourite relative). So you could have John-Paul or John-Mary: in both cases, the bearer is male. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I accept the OP's original premise. Just looking at names that are common and have a long history in the English-speaking world, for example, I find for example the following men's names that end in vowel sounds: Andrew, Anthony, Matthew, Henry, and the following women's names that end in consonant sounds: Jane, Joan, Catherine, Anne (which probably between them accounted for half the women in England in, say, the 16th C). In Italian (and a lesser extent Spanish), both male and female names frequently end in vowels as vowel-endings are the norm for nouns in Italian and very common in Spanish.

In European names very broadly, you could probably make a good case for a specific vowel sound (or group of similar sounds) - a (or a reduced version of it) being a strong marker of a female name and being generally avoided as an ending for male names (although the schwa at the end of Peter - and more modern names often borrowed from surnames or occupations like Hunter, Taylor etc. - sounds the same as a reduced a in non-rhotic dialects of English, though any spelling as -a rather than -er etc. such as Peta would strike me immediately as a female form). This probably comes from the Latin -a ending as ColinFine comments.

Also, just on ColinFine's point about masculine names ending in consonsants in Latin, it's worth keeping in mind that although the nominative of 2nd declension nouns ends in -us, the root is actually -o (the s is a nominative marker) and it's the -o root form which has survived in some of Latin's daughter languages (Marcus > Marco, Antonius > Antonio and so on). Valiantis (talk) 22:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There's also a well-known Elizabeth often seen loitering about the place. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:43, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"Elizabeth" is a slightly strange case -- it's Elišeβaʕ אלישבע in Hebrew, without special feminine ending (actually ending in a pharyngeal consonant), but it was transferred into Greek as Ελεισαβεθ, as if it had a Semitic -t feminine ending (though it didn't)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:13, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Suicide Bridge by Ian Sinclair

Maybe a long shot but does anyone know if the 1979 story "Suicide Bridge" by Ian Sinclair refers to Hornsey Lane Bridge\Archway in London? Difficultly north (talk) 11:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

en:WP => Writer Iain Sinclair's epic poem Suicide Bridge takes its title from a local nickname for the Archway Bridge. Grey Geezer 11:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey Geezer (talk • contribs)

If you're going to give us a reference from Misplaced Pages, please link to the article, so we can see whether or not it is reliably sourced. I haven't found that quotation in Suicide Bridge, ~~Archway, London~~, Iain Sinclair or Suicide bridge, though A1 (London) confirms (with references, unlike Archway, London) that the name is used for that bridge. --ColinFine (talk) 11:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I take it back, the quote is in Archway, London, but lower down. It is, however, unreferenced, and is therefore of no value in answering the question. --ColinFine (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Several times in blogs (...) Maybe the connection was made from here. Otherwise nothing in GoogleBooks. Grey Geezer 13:03, 18 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey Geezer (talk • contribs)

Article: The Hornsey Lane Bridge Anti-Suicide Campaign Bus stop (talk) 13:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of Iain Sinclair in the article Bus stop cited. He is mentioned in the source Grey Geezer found, but it does not mention his novel or the idea behind it, and it only mentions the bridge in passing. --ColinFine (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

My mistake. I misunderstood. Bus stop (talk) 21:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Reopened

Thanks anyway. Actually, that article you mentioned will help me write the article. I'm not sure if I will include Ian Sinclair. Difficultly north (talk) 09:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't this question already asked recently? AnonMoos (talk) 16:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The OP reopened it in order to thank a respondent. Very courteous behaviour. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Street mouth?

The place where a river meets a lake or a sea is a river mouth. Is there an analogous name for the place where a street meets a square? Mouth? Exit? — Kpalion 16:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Junction. At the junction of Foo Street and Bar Square. End. At the Bar Square end of Foo Street. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Tagishsimon! — Kpalion 19:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"The mouth of a river" is on my list of "10 Best (or Worst) Euphemisms". (It's not like the contents of the river are vomited into the ocean.) A more anatomically accurate term would be "the anus of a river". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It's pretty much a linguistic universal that body parts are used for geographical and direction descriptions such as foot of the mountain. (In Slavic, the cognate word for foot, pid, in my family's dialect, means beneath) Such terms are common with the indigenous peoples of Siberia. Equations of body parts with concepts of nature such as leaf=ear are also common among languages of certain typologies See Klimov as mentioned in Nichols. The notion mouth of a river is probably more common than you would think. I have never heard of the ass of a river, but there is the cloaca maxima.μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

meatus? —Tamfang (talk) 06:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Magpies (fear of)

Template:Formerly

What is (or if there's no official term, would be) the term for "magpie phobia" / "fear of magpies" ?

doktorb _words 16:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"Ornithophobia" is general fear of birds. Karakaxa is the modern Greek word for a magpie, so you could use that (have no idea what the ancient Greek word was). AnonMoos (talk) 16:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Medieval Greek apparently attests καρακάξα and a synonym γαγίλα. So using that, you'd get "caracaxaphobia" or "gagilaphobia". And if you extend the definition to crows and jackdaws to which they are very close relations of, you'd get "coracophobia" from κόραξ. The latter is actually Ancient Greek and remarkably similar to καρακάξα, so it might be a cognate. Though all of them are onomatopoeic, so it might not. :P Disclaimer: not real words.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There is not even a formal term for "crow phobia", which must be far more common. It's hard to imagine why anybody would have a fear of magpies, which don't even flock the way crows do. Looie496 (talk) 19:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, someone who was superstitious might develop exaggerated beliefs around the darker aspects of some versions of the traditional rhyme One for Sorrow. My own mother, being a bit "fluffy bunny" about nature, greatly dislikes magpies because of their predation on the nestlings of other birds;I could see this sort of attitude developing into an obsession. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.109 (talk) 21:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There was a flock of maybe two dozen chicken-sized common ravens occupying (in the military sense) the courtyard of the university library yesterday. It was the first time I was ever scared by birds, except once when I stumbled upon a blue heron standing silently about 12 feet away from me around dawn on the campus of Douglass College. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Looie, if the question was intended to apply not just to corvids but to any bird commonly known as a magpie, the Australian Magpie has a fearsome and well-deserved reputation:

Spring in Australia is magpie season, when a small minority of breeding magpies (almost always males) around the country become aggressive and swoop and attack those who approach their nests, especially bike riders.

Btw, some people have every reason to be afraid of magpies. Carn the pies. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

(ec)There are perfectly sound reasons to be wary of the Australian magpie, a bird unrelated to the northern hemisphere magpies the OP is presumably talking about. FiggyBee (talk) 23:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Although Gymnorhinaphobia as a term would likely be misconstrued. μηδείς (talk) 23:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The species name of the common magpie is Pica pica, so picaphobia would seem appropriate. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

In harmony with WP:TPOC (point 13: Section headings), I am adding an anchor link—"Template:Formerly"—in order to enable links to the archived section. In the future, someone may wish to link to this discussion in the archives, and square brackets in headings hinder the functioning of section links. See Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 63#Dysfunctional links in archived section headings (September 2009).

—Wavelength (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I get your point now, I was not thinking about archives, this not being an article, the objection didn't seem relevant on merely stylistic grounds. You may have noticed there is at least one other title with a link in it on this thread. μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

You are all ruddy marvellous, you know that, don't you? Thanks very much for the replies doktorb _words 06:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Help in writing an article

Help me on writing a tremendous article on the topic "Role of youth in nation's development". It's not my homework, I have to give a huge stage performance. Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk) 18:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Any particular nation? --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to do two things. First, to write article and then to give a speech. I will pay my attention on youth of the world. But, if you want to know a particular nation, then, that's India. Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk) 18:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk • contribs) 18:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Be careful, Sunny: a good Misplaced Pages article will not usually make a good speech, and vice versa. They are very different. In particular, an encyclopaedia article should have a level of detail which would be confusing or boring in a speech; and a Misplaced Pages article should not advance an argument. --ColinFine (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on what you define as 'youth' (children, teenagers, people in their early twenties, anyone under 35 years of age). The Arab spring is usually seen as the result of the youth in Arab countries being dissatisfied with the situation in their countries. Similarly, the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 were students protesting, as were the demonstrators during the Thammasat student uprising. While such demonstrations can have an effect on politics in country, it seems to me that it's rarely the youth who parttook in these demonstrations who end up making the decisions on the way forward. E.g. the youth of Egypt might've toppled Mubarak, but it's the military that ran the show afterwards. V85 (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Per Colin's post, above, if we presume you're looking for notes for a speech you have to give, rather than wishing us to write a[REDACTED] article ... you probably want to think about the nature of the argument you'll make. You can be upbeat, along the lines of youth being able to innovate in technology yielding companies like microsoft, yahoo, google, etc. Ditto contributions to music. Or you can be more utilitarian and argue in terms of youth providing low cost entry-level labour necessary for the functioning of an economy. Or you could very legitimately argue that, currently in many western countries, there's a rebalancing of society which lays a historically disproportionate burden on the young - in terms of tuition fees, house prices, etc - which mean that Generation X loses out to the Baby Boomers, and Generation Y gets pretty well stuffed. In this scenario, the role of the young is to pay for things their parents got for free, and to be paid as little as possible with as shabby as possible pension provisions so as to transfer as much profit as possible to the owners of capital. So; yes. you can put together a very good talk on this subject. But you probably need to guide this conversation if you want to get any more from this forum. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I didn't get that Sunny is writing a Misplaced Pages article; just an article for some external publication. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 09:23, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not writing a Misplaced Pages article. I am, just, writing article for school students. Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk) 09:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Since you asked me for help at my talk page — you'll have to specify the way or ways in which you want me to help you. "Help me write an article" isn't specific enough for me to know what to do. Nyttend (talk) 11:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Looking for a Word for a Definition

I'm looking to describe a certain kind of cultural phenomenon where a fad, event, fictional series, or any other sort mass media event permeates many more layers and levels of society, which would not normally be affected by similar events, are affected. A few recent examples might include: large fictional series such as the Twilight and Harry Potter series or the war on Iraq or 9/11. I'm not really seeing it apply to individual people, though it could potentially apply to situations regarding these people. As well, I'm thinking of it being on a continuum, where a commonly accepted and "objectively significant" case of this is closer to the definition, and a more personalized and perception driven version is less like the definition. So between "A significant or defining mass media delivered event in a person's life" and "a significant or defining mass media delivered event in a culture". Or perhaps there would be two types, one objective and another subjective, and the continuum would rely on importance or size. I suppose a similar idea would be a household name, though I don't quite see it fitting with above definition.

Anything like this or along these lines would be appreciated, though the closer the better. I am looking more for a commonly defined term than to coin a new term or phrase. Thanks, Sazea (talk) 19:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Let me clarify this. Something like the death of Grace Archer, or maybe even World War 2, or the death of JFK? --TammyMoet (talk) 21:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Harry Potter would be described as a phenomenon. I suggest you look up that word or craze in an online thesaurus and then click on a word close to your meaning until you arrive at the word you want. μηδείς (talk) 21:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You pose is an interesting idea about "an idea" of sorts, but I'm not sure if it has a specific name as such. Running the risk of sounding mundane, I would first call it "a very powerful meme". Thankfully the field of Memetics is much more mature and expertly developed than the "Internets" would have you believe, so you should check the article for a deep discussion on the subject before dismissing the whole meme concept. There are scientists who have developed an entire lexicon around memes, so you should check out Memetics glossaries such as this one for more ideas. As for the continuum you speak of, it sounds a lot like Zeitgeist, which usually refers to the sphere of ideas that stand out at a global level. For example, Google Trends, which denotes the most searched-for items, was previously called Google Zeitgeist. But it also reminds me of the Noosphere, the sphere of human thought, or even the collective consciousness, through which humanity shares common thoughts and ideas such as the ones you mentioned. So, maybe it could be better to call the phenomenon you talk about a "Zeitgeist event" or a "spark in the collective consciousness" or something like that. There's plenty of "ideas" to go around. :) --Kreachure (talk) 02:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Uyghur pronunciation

How is Ürümqi pronounced in Uyghur? The article only gives the English pronunciation. --146.7.96.200 (talk) 19:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Going by the Uyghur language article: /yrymt͡ʃi/, but that assumes it is written with a phonemic orthography. V85 (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Omniglot's Uyghur page gives the IPA for the Arabic, Cyrillic, and Latin systems of writing the language; that seems to support /yrymt͡ʃi/ as the correct pronunciation. dalahäst 21:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

July 27

French audio translation

Hi, could someone please translate a small piece of audio in French found here? It's from an interview with Jean Cocteau (about "Phenixologie"). It's just 30 seconds long. Thanks in advance. --Kreachure (talk) 01:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Jean Cocteau, la scène à laquelle vos amis espagnols viennent d'assister est celle de votre résurrection.	Jean Cocteau, the scene that your Spanish friends just witnessed is that of your resurrection.
C'est à dire que les poètes meurent et revivent. Dalí a inventé une science très belle: la phénixologie. La phénixologie, cela veut dire que les personnes meurent souvent pour renaître. C'est la renaissance du phénix. Brûle, brûle pour se changer en cendres, et à leur tour les cendres se changent en soi-même. On devient soi-même à travers ce phénomène de la phénixologie.	That is to say that poets die and live again. Dalí invented a very beautiful science: phoenixology. Phoenixology, that means that people die ~~always~~ often to be reborn. It's the rebirth of the phoenix. Burn, burn to change into ashes, and in their turn the ashes become oneself. One becomes oneself through this phenomenon of phoenixology.

—Tamfang (talk) 06:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Afew small improvements to the translation (IMHO): ...that people die often in order to be reborn... ...to turn into ashes, and in turn the ashes... --Xuxl (talk) 09:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

dunno how I mistook souvent for toujours! —Tamfang (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much! :) --Kreachure (talk) 12:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

German infinitive noun declension

Hi, I stumbled across an occurence of "das Kitzeln", and it has prompted me to try to figure out how to decline the German infinitive nouns (gerunds?), and I am having trouble finding the rule.

My best guess is that it is as follows with the verb kitzeln (to tickle), and that all gerunds (das Üben, das Fliegen, das Geben, etc) would follow this pattern.

Singular:

Nominative: das Kitzeln
Genitive: des Kitzelns
Dative: dem Kitzeln
Accusative: das Kitzeln

Plural:

Nominative: die Kitzeln
Genitive: der Kitzeln
Dative: den Kitzeln (or den Kitzelnen?)
Accusative: die Kitzeln

Is this correct? And does anybody know of a source; I wouldn't mind updating the German_verbs#Gerund section with this information.

Thanks,

Falconus 03:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Does the plural of the infinitive exist? μηδείς (talk) 04:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The singular is right. I don't think these gerunds are ever used in the plural, but if so, then the dative plural is den Kitzeln because you don't add -en to a plural that already ends in -n. Angr (talk) 05:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Our German verbs article says that "the gerund does not have a plural, and its gender is neuter". I'm by no means fluent in German, but from what I can see, the German Misplaced Pages articles for "gerund", "infinitive", and "German grammar" (of which "verbs" is a subsection) do not even make mention of the fact that such usages exist, their declensions, etc. dalahäst 05:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The plural of the infinitive seems like a contradiction in terms. Spanish does allow one to speak of seres humanos and la separación de poderes, although these seem like idiomatic expressions, rather than a productive rule allowing pluralization of any infinitive. English may be a bad example, but "are to errs human, while to forgives are divine"? We speak of does (do's) and don'ts, where do's sounds like a pluralized infinitive. Again, this seems more like an idiom than a generally accepted rule. μηδείς (talk) 06:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The German article is de:Verbalnomen ("verbal noun"). Both of my grammar books (Eisenberg: "Grundriss der deutschen Grammatik"; Engel: "Deutsche Grammatik") call it nominalisierter Infinitiv. Neither book even has the term "gerund" (Gerundium) in the index, that term is not used in German grammar. Verbal nouns only have singular forms, and their declination is correct as stated by Falconus. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. Because we could talk about "the ticklings" in English, it hadn't occured to me that you can't do that in German. Thanks for your responses! Falconus 17:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I suppose if you did want to talk about "the ticklings" in German, it would be die Kitzlungen. Angr (talk) 17:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

But "ticklings" are not "to tickles"; gerunds, not infinitives. German has no problem with the pluralization of forms in -ung such as Ermordungen or Bedeutungen (which are feminine, BTW). μηδείς (talk) 17:54, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

But what about "der Kitzler"? :D 109.99.71.97 (talk) 18:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Forget Kitzler. How do you like Kipling? μηδείς (talk) 18:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

If only. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 21:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Have an Arabic speaker translate this Qadafi capture video

Template:Formerly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy1dsO-jKd0&feature=player_embedded&bpctr=1343175474&skipcontrinter=1

See, all I understand from the video is "Moammar!" and "Allahu Akbar," (God is Great.)

This was an exciting day for Libyans and pro-democracy individuals worldwide. The moment marked the fall of a die-hard dictator after a rule that spanned longer than I've been alive.

This is why that moment is worth translating.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Ireland town

File:Ireland town 1860 census.jpg

Unknown Ireland town

What is the name of this town in Ireland that I took off the 1860 US Census?--Doug Coldwell 15:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Does it have to be a town? It might say Co. Cavan. Pais (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I do believe you got it! Thanks...--Doug Coldwell 17:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Funny, I'd've guessed it says Barbara Stanwyck. μηδείς (talk) 22:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

No, County Cavan is in the hills, whereas Barbara Stanwyck is in a big valley. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugh. With punchlines like that, I hope they keep you out of the talkies. ;) Snow (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Barbara, sure, but Stanwyck, Medeis? Where do you see that? Now, Barbara Ireland would have been a much more reasonable stab. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 10:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Most useful foreign language

Which foreign language is the most useful? --146.7.96.200 (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

To whom? For what purpose? If you're planning a visit to Iceland, then the best language to study would be Icelandic. You can see how this answer is going to depend on a number of factors none of which you've given us. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 19:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The user geolocates to Missouri. Assuming he doesn't wish to leave the US, and does not have specific plans, Spanish would be the best bet since he is statistically much more likely to come across Spanish speakers than others in the US. Learning any foreign language broadens the mind. But if you don't have occasion to use it it is like a blind man studying painting. Spanish is also broadcast widely in the US and it has a long tradition of art and literature to enjoy. Chinese has its obvious and similar advantages as well. Already speaking Spanish, were I able to take up any new language now for free I would add Mandarin Chinese. μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

As has been noted already, your inquiry is a little too open-ended and lacking in context for any significantly practical response specific to your needs, but I'll try to make some general observations about various prominent languages that you might find useful. To begin with, there are the "world languages", those which are not only spoken by a large number of people globally but which are also spoken in a good number of locations outside their region of origin; other than English, these most notably include the three most broadly spoken romance languages (Spanish, French, and Portuguese) and German. Like English, these are all languages that gained significant influence through the force of European colonization in the last few centuries and they remain amongst the most dominant languages in general and very widely used in commerce in particular. Then there are a number of prominent languages which have a large number of speakers but do not have quite the global spread that the above languages do (though they may still cover a significant region and/or be found on multiple continents). These include Mandarin, Cantonese, Wu Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Arabic, Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Punjabi, Tamil, Pashto, Persian, Javanese, Malay, and a number of others, depending on your criteria. The degree to which these are spoken predominantly as first or second languages varies considerably from language to language, but they can all be reasonably described as global languages to some degree. Of course, without knowing your particular needs or the reason for your drive to learn a new language (assuming this is why you ask the question) it's hard to refine the answer further. But one thing you might keep in mind when choosing is just how much of a challenge you would like in the process. Presuming you are a native English speaker, you may find Germanic languages the easiest to pick up (Scandinavian tongues in particular tend to be easier for English speakers to assimilate to, relatively speaking) whereas Chinese languages with their tonal phonology or Japanese with it's markedly different syntax would probably be more on the difficult end of the spectrum. If you also don't fancy having to learn an entire new orthography you're better off sticking with a language which uses the same alphabet as English; luckily there's no shortage of these. There's also, as has been noted above, the consideration of immersement opportunity; learning a language is considerably easier when you have a context to speak it as frequently as possible, especially with native speakers. Hope that helps some. If you wish to narrow your search a bit more, drop a line with additional details as to your need here (or on my talk page, if you wish). I will say also, all things being equal, you could just go with a language that tends, in your culture, to make the opposite sex melt; for most English speakers the obvious choice here is French. Snow (talk) 23:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I find English to be a quite useful foreign language. And I quite like its quirkiness. Most talk radio is a downer, though. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Holy crap, that's supposed to be English? I just assumed they were speaking in tongues... Snow (talk) 23:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

"Speaking in tongues" is in the Bible, and thus certainly English! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll generally endorse Jack's comments except to mention that of the European languages he mentioned, Italian, Dutch and the Scandinavian dialects won't get you very far except in their native lands, and many Dutch and Scandinavians speak English. While Japanese has a different word order from English, and its writing systems are relatively complex, its grammar and phonology are quite simple and regular. As for French, maybe it's different in Australia or in cartoons, but nowadays most Americans find it suited as the object of humor, rather than a medium of romance. (But like Latin, it is great for expanding your knowledge of the origins/meanings and even spelling of English expressions and vocabulary.) Hindi/Urdu and Arabic have relatively wide usage. But Bengali, Punjabi, Tamil, Pashto, Persian, and Javanese, while they may have a large number of speakers locally, are otherwise very limited niche languages outside their native areas. μηδείς (talk) 00:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'm on your mind, Medeis (which would be understandable enough). :) The only language I mentioned was Icelandic. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 09:56, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'll say this - as someone with a background in comparative linguistics who has studied Japanese (albeit casually) for a good long while, I still find it to be one of the more challenging languages to be a productive and eloquent speaker in, coming from the perspective of a native English speaker. You're quite correct that the learning process is aided somewhat by a shallow phonology and orthography (with regard to the syllabaries, anyway, not kanji of course), but I don't find the syntax to be any more regular than your average language and regardless, both syntax and morphology are just so different from English, especially for someone who has no formal training with language and no experience with speaking a second language. Plus it's absolutely loaded with idioms and other semantic nuances that will take you a lifetime to master if not acquired from early in life -- Japanese grammars are about as thick as a microbiology text, and one-tenth as easily assimilated! Mind you, I'm by no means a polyglot and mileage will certainly vary, but would I present Japanese as the language likely to be the smoothest for a new learner to transition to from English? Not on your life! On a second note (and not to seem like I'm picking an argument!), I think you're underselling French by a mile if you think it's more a source for comedic than enamouring potential; I can only speak to personal experience from one side of the gender divide, but I assure you it still does at least as well as any other language in existence for scoring superficial points with women in the States. But again, mileage will vary, I suppose. Of course, the language itself (any language) pales in comparison to the influence of the accent; in terms of linguistic allure, a Frenchman speaking in English is going to beat you, speaking in (even flawless) French, most any day of the week! ;) Snow (talk) 04:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, idioms is idioms in any language. I don't imagine anyone not immersed for two decades could speak any language as well as most of us here speak English. But Japanese has no synthesis, it has regular postpositions instead of irregular cases, no irregular verbs to speak of. Its phonology is a tad easier than Spanish. Just no basic IE vocabulary cognates and those damn Chinese squiggles. I have had not a single lesson in Japanese, but was able to help a stranded Japanese businessman at Penn Station in NY get on the right train to NJ by asking him (from just having read Mario Pei and Anthony Burgess), "Anato wa Purinceton e desu ka?" (You Princeton to is, eh?) and answering to him when he said "Hai!" that, "Atashi wa Purinceton e desu." (I to Princeton am.) He then started a conversation in Japanese--to which I could only answer, "Aisumasen (sorry), no Japanese." I could never have bullshat my way through Russian verbs or Chinese tones like that. Oh, and Spanish and Russian in the right tone have moved me further than French with its silly rounded front vowels and nasal vowels ever could. Merely watching an Almodovar film can give me an orgasm. μηδείς (talk) 05:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Huh, did you know that we don't have an article (or even a disambig reference) for grammars, in the sense of a reference guide to the grammar of a given language? I'll have to remedy that this weekend. Snow (talk) 04:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the Bible tells us all about the adventures of those well-known Englishmen, God and his son Jesus. (Well, GBS recorded he was taught that God was not just an Englishman, but a Protestant.) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 00:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

That may have been the case before the Revolution, but nowadays the Father and Son are like the Bushes. God's a New Englander and his son is from Texas. μηδείς (talk) 00:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

And presiding over football games, to the detriment of their other duties.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 03:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

All this talk of Speaking in Tongues and Bushes is reminding me of how good Remain in Light was. (The first time I heard Fela Kuti, I thought, that's odd, this sounds like Talking Heads. And this track still creeps me out.) In my experience, if you're an English speaker abroad, it pays to have a midwestern accent - people find you much easier to understand that way.--Shirt58 (talk) 01:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Above: you could just go with a language that tends, in your culture, to make the opposite sex melt; for most English speakers the obvious choice here is French. I have often wondered whether this was a key to the amorous successes of multiply-married Newton Leroy Gingrich. As a resident of Brussels and author of a dissertation on the Belgian Congo, surely he would be a francophone. Although French may not be the first choice; see A Fish Called Wanda. -- Hoary (talk) 10:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This might be the perfect topic to establish the fact that learning Latin or Greek is absolutely the most ridiculous way to waste your time. Anyway, I'd think the best "foreign language" is still English, even it's not a foreign language to you. It might help to learn "international English". For me its much easier to understand people who had to learn English themselves. Native speakers are much harder to understand. Being able to speak like someone learning English would make you being understood by many more people than any course in Chinese, Spanish or whatever language could do. Joepnl (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but I don't think that's quite what the OP had in mind. I agree with μηδείς on Spanish. Being in the Americas, you're far more likely to know a few people who are native Spanish speakers. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 03:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

(Ahem!) @ Joepnl: Your so-called "fact" is not even remotely "established". Even as an ironic comment, it deserves instant nuking. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 10:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

As a citizen of the US who is learning / has learned a number of languages widely considered "useless" here, I can attest to the fact that even the languages which seem useless and do not have huge numbers of speakers like Mandarin can actually be very useful, beyond the mental benefits that learning most any language provide, etc. For example, speaking Norwegian has allowed me to follow Anders Behring Breivik's trial and the events surrounding it in far greater detail than most English-language media provides. On a more personal note, I really like the style of NRK's news coverage, so I read most news on their website instead of, say, CNN. dalahäst 06:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree entirely that no language, even the incredibly elegant Latin and Ancient Greek, is a waste of time to learn. But how horrible to use Norwegian to follow anything to do with Breivik. It's like studying Georgian only to look forward to using it with Hell's General Secretary.

I find it fascinating, in a way—though, fascinating or not, unpleasant events are not undone if we simply pretend they did not happen. Certainly, though, Norwegian and Georgian alike are useful for much more than studying such things. dalahäst 07:53, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll put in a token plug for Esperanto (which was my second language, at age 5–6) because it's very easy to learn. True you won't get as many opportunities to use it as some of the others mentioned, but every language you have makes the next language a little bit easier, so it makes sense to start with an easy one. —Tamfang (talk) 06:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Esperanto is has the plusses of all the pseudo-Romance languages; it is easy to comprehend when it is used in a straightforward way. The weird part is when you get into all the productive little morphological elements and start coining words that have no basis or parallel in the Indo-European languages. At that point a natural-ist wants to retreat into latino sine flexione or go whole hog into Volapük. And what's the point of LSF when you have Spanish? Or Volapük when there's Lojban, or Sindarin, or the Navajo language, with its lack of regular verbs? μηδείς (talk) 06:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You want a language with no regular verbs? Try Old Irish, a language whose verbal morphology makes even hard-core language nerds tremble. Angr (talk) 07:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

July 28

Check my grammar?

I just edited a paragraph/section at Mitt_Romney_dog_incident#Road_trip. I removed some redundant words/phrases, tried to make it more readable, found the proper medical term (I think), etc, etc. Warning! It is being discussed on the talk page as to wording.--Canoe1967 (talk) 06:47, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's the diff. I oppose the changes as at best unnecessary and at worst supposition and vague euphemism. μηδείς (talk) 07:06, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I just did another edit to fix errors I made in the previous ones.--Canoe1967 (talk) 07:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Removing the unsourced medical diagnoses and unnecessary wording was good. However, unless the Romneys have ascended to a more rarefied status than I'm aware of, sticking a capitalized "The" in front was wrong. The last sentence is a bit clunky too ("to the destination"). A bit off the topic, but it's Romney's parents' cottage. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Change from 'destination' to 'cottage' then? And how do you recommend the 'The' thingy?--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Make it lower case. Just like "I am a member of the Smith family". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 08:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help Clarityfiend and Jack. I just dumped a link to a very good online vet manual on the talk page discussion for others to use as RS as well.--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation in Slavic languages

Is there any Slavic language, other than Russian, in which every unstressed (original) /o/ becomes /a/? 77.124.92.249 (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, read the stub, it's called akanje. μηδείς (talk) 19:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

paunch

What's perfect meaning? "A fat abdomen" or just "Abdomen" ?

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