Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:51, 3 August 2012

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Ashley van Haeften

The banning of Ashley van Haeften (User:Fae) has now broke through into the mainstream media, delivering another black eye to WP. "Chairman of Misplaced Pages charity banned after pornography row."

Why has Fae not done the right thing and resigned his position as head of Wikimedia UK following the decision of ArbCom in his case? Does he not understand politics? Is he in denial???

Fae — for god's sake, do the right thing for the good of The Project. Carrite (talk) 03:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Ow noes - major national press reports - infamy - increased profile of the arbitration result reflect negatively in real life on the user and in turn on the Misplaced Pages project, especially the Wikimedia UK in relation to the subjects extremely high status and profile in that org . National high profile press articles linking Misplaced Pages UK's charity status to pornography issues for which its chair has been banned from editing the central Misplaced Pages project are a sure net loss to charitable contributions and ongoing status. - Youreallycan 06:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I sweated. The title couldn't be more misleading. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:47, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• - "Fundraising materials boast that Misplaced Pages “is a safe and trustworthy website for children to do their research”, yet Wikimedia Commons makes massive volumes of pornography freely available to any Misplaced Pages visitor. " - and Mr van Haeften was not banned for posting explicit material, but for where he posted it, his reaction to criticism for doing so and violations of editing rules. (content copy pasted from the linked telegraph external article, only for discussion and not for republishing) - Youreallycan 06:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Let's be blunt, this is the result of an ongoing campaign against sex-related content by the likes of Peter Cohen, JN466, Peter Damian (who's not only banned here but is physically banned from attending WMUK events) and various cranks and nutters on Wikipediocracy/Wikipedia Review who fantasise about getting Misplaced Pages shut down. Having failed to persuade the community here, they're trying to bully and pressure Misplaced Pages through external means such as political lobbying - even making anti-Fae submissions to the UK parliament - and now evidently someone has been shopping stories to the right-wing press. No doubt the people behind this story are trying to tout it around other outlets as well. It's deplorable and an utter betrayal of the spirit of friendly cooperation that Wikipedians are supposed to operate in. Put simply, disputes about Misplaced Pages's content should be resolved on-wiki, not escalated into off-wiki smear campaigns against specific individuals. Prioryman (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• That is fairly blunt, Prioryman, especially since you aren't backing up your allegations with any evidence. I think you may be committing a fairly egregious personal attack. JN466 and Peter Cohen, in particular, are editors in good standing. Cla68 (talk) 08:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• as we are being blunt Prioryman... Fae is banned here, so has no direct avenue for response. So I will keep this short. It's deplorable and an utter betrayal of the spirit of friendly cooperation that Wikipedians are supposed to operate in.; Ashley violated this spirit first - in nasty and vindictive ways, for which there is amply evidence. Which is why ultimately, the Arbcom was raised. Although there has been off-wiki harrassment, there has also been reasonable criticism and efforts to bring him to account - made difficult to the squirming, circling of wagons and general evasivness of Fae and his supporters. This recent coverage really stems from the fact that Ashley and the WMUK board are staunchly trying to weather the storm - in the face of serious concern amongst WMUK members. If you are looking for a bully, you need only look at one person. --Errant 08:35, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

At least two, actually.VolunteerMarek 08:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

After reading the recent discussions, at EN and at the "WP criticism" pages (actually they contain more personal attacks then criticism), it indicates to me that Prioryman is writing the right thing. But since Jimbos talk page got one point of interest for those "critics", as we can see them pop up right after every such rightful comment, it doesn't make sense to me to elaborate the details. It would be like reciting Faust while having annoyed cobras around yourself. In my eyes it is shameful. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 09:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• News headline has positive spin "banned after pornography": That Telegraph article is extremely positive, in terms of "family values", to help Misplaced Pages's reputation as fighting against attitudes which conflict with society's norms. Considering how liberal many societies already have become, any such press is a positive spin to show the leadership of WP actively restraining, or banning, excessive promotion or links to pornography. I regret that any person has to be tied to a strong demonstration that WP actively fights improper activities, but the headline will do wonders to reassure wary people who have "heard rumors" that Misplaced Pages management actively promotes porn, instead: "Chairman of Misplaced Pages charity banned after pornography row". -Wikid77 (talk) 09:15, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If you look closely at the article, then you can see little Larry Sangers constructing and organizing the letters and words. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 09:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The failed encyclopedist Sanger features prominently in the recently published Fox article too, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's involved in pushing the hostile briefing against Fae. Prioryman (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Will you quit it with the personal attacks AND the BLP violations? Last I checked Sanger was still a living person and BLP applies this page as it does to any other. And btw, you're not exactly helping yourself here.VolunteerMarek 19:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• And one of the harassers subsequently went and wrote an attack article (now deleted) on Fae. Can't say i'm really surprised. Silverseren 09:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, the question of whether Mr. van Haeften satisfies the general notability guide would be a rather interesting one to put to the test. Why don't you give us your Article Rescue Squadron-oriented opinion on this, Seren. You and the ARS crew has argued fervently to retain articles on women with large breasts fired from their job, flight attendants who yell at the passengers, a woman who fell into mail fountains, a girl who hiccups too much, the husband of a Republican presidential candidate, a dead cat with helicopter blades attached to its paws, and so on. Now we have an individual who is the chair of a registered charity, Wikimedia UK, who now appears in multiple reliable sources because of this incident. Surely that merits some consideration for article inclusion? Tarc (talk) 12:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:BLP1E as you well know. You would be yelling that from the rooftops if it was about anyone other than Fae. Prioryman (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Perhaps. But the boilerplate ARS defense to BLP1E is to declare the event to be notable. So, perhaps someone wil ltake a stab at 2012 WMUK Chairman Firing Controversy, or some such. Tarc (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Indeed that would make sense, if this encyclopedia were still living up to its principles. Wnt (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
          • It's impossible to write up such an article without violating Misplaced Pages review's copyright. Count Iblis (talk) 19:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• - A good faith position to take here is to accept that there are many supporters of the family of Misplaced Pages projects that are concerned about the unfiltered access to porn that the project is currently offering - I predict here and now, as I did in Fae's case - this issue will end in a train crash for Misplaced Pages if the good faith concerns are not addressed. - Youreallycan 12:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

As long people spread bad faith messages like this, it will surely divide the community. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 12:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is the bad faith? - My comment is simply my personal prediction on what will happen if this problem is not addressed - Clearly the community is divided on this - as it is on all difficult issues but that is no excuse not to do the hard work to address users good faith concerns, - Youreallycan 12:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

But image filter arguments are a tad off topic here for this thread. The Telegraph may have tried to link this story to our porn debate, but the two are quite distinct. Remember Ash's response to criticism of his editing of Gay pornstars was to withdraw from that topic. If this was really about porn that withdrawl would have ended the matter. My view as someone who has argued for an image filter and even designed one option, is that we can get consensus for an image filter providing we keep that debate focussed on creating a system whereby those who want to opt out of seeing certain things here can do so without censoring what others see. ϢereSpielChequers 12:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) - Personally imo to protect the projects broader mission , if there is no support for a content filter I would split the pornographic content away from the charitable status part of the project completely - creating a totally independent Pornographic/Adult content Wiki. Youreallycan 13:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is the sharper the divide between what you want to define as porn and what you don't the harder it is to get consensus. Luckily in my experience there aren't that many who object in principle to a genuinely optional filter, providing that you can tune it to your personal boundaries as to what you do or don't want to see. ϢereSpielChequers 13:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

So long as it can be bypassed by page/image then the filter can be coarse and block a wide range of images. For example I may have nudity and greater selected, and browse to a page on Rubens the images may initially be blanked out (if the filter is extemely coarse), but so long as I have a simple method to reveal then everything is fine. If I find that I'm always having to 'reveal' then I may change the fileter setting. John lilburne (talk) 13:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that even a filter won't put an end to the porn debates. After all (gasp) think of the children.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sad but true, see my paragraph below. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 13:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It's alright to rubbish the "think of the children" argument if you make it clear in fundraisers and publicity materials that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for adults. But Misplaced Pages wants to have it both ways, presenting itself as childsafe and free of risky content in fundraisers, and a boon to the little girl in Africa or Brazil and kids doing homework everywhere. Wikimedia wants the money of people who think of the children, it just doesn't want to do anything for children itself. It's hypocritical, isn't it? --JN466 14:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

@John Lilburne. One divide amongst those who want a filter would appear to be between those who don't see the need for the complexity of a filter setting and those who see that as essential. Me I'm not bothered whether someone would want to set the filter at swimsuit or what in the UK we'd call topshelf. As long as the setting of the filter is personal to the individual and I can set the filter where it suits me I'm OK, the problem is that some people want a nice simple filter that has one single definition of porn. I suspect they assume that the definition that we'd end up with would be the one that works best for them. ϢereSpielChequers 16:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

@Youreallycan: I did not refer to your comment as a bad faith assumption. I meant the article, it's dubious headline and it's superficial content.

I would not like the idea to create an adult Wiki. There are many topics that fall under both categories and it strongly depends in which context the articles are seen or used. Violence or even sexual depiction might not be a problem if pupils (children or children close to be adults) use them for educational reasons, with the necessary guidance. In such a case you would barely see any complaints and people are happy to use our resources. But of course you will find the opposite opinions as well. A good example is the solution represented by the San Francisco Public Library. They increased the privacy of the user, but did not start filtering, because they follow the Library Bill Of Rights. I wish that Wikipedias community and the WMF could be as wise as well and use them as a reference. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 13:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is that guidance supposed to come from? If you look up caning, you get a BDSM navigation template with links to illustrated articles on tit torture and cock and ball torture (sexual practice). If you look up gel bracelet, or fuck, you get similar navigation templates leading to articles on the most bizarre, rare or even entirely made-up kinds of kink. How do children tell what is a normal, common sexual practice and what isn't? Misplaced Pages sure doesn't tell them the prevalence, and the articles are written by practitioners. And if you look up koto, a musical instrument to most people, the first link on the disambig page is to a pornstar bio. --JN466 14:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. But i wonder how you navigate through a library or the Internet. Do you always start with a BDSM term if you want too look for a book about cocking? --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 14:12, 1 August 2012 (UTC) PS: Do you expect to look at a flower if you click on the link "Hikaru Koto, former porn star" inside koto?

I'm always amused by these arguments. In eight years as a Wikipedian, I can't recall ever accidentally finding porn. A lot of the complaints read to me as "I went looking for porn, I found it, and now I'm offended!" It is kind of like searching for a book on the occult then claiming the local library encourages witchcraft. Resolute 14:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I also can't ever recall accidentally finding porn on WP. But, then again, I'm never not looking for it. Formerip (talk) 14:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Kids look for it. It's absolutely natural. And what they find should have some educational value and present things in context, rather than being merely the how-to guide and fap stash of the local tit torture or zoophilia fan. --JN466 14:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course they look for it, and let me tell you, there are many places to find much better porn than Misplaced Pages. We're the Sears Catalogue of it, not the Hustler. Your argument there seems to be that the articles need improvement more than anything. Give it a crack, eh? ;) Resolute 14:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks for making clear that you had no idea what you were talking about in your preceding post. I'd like to see a cooperation between sex education experts and Misplaced Pages, to get Misplaced Pages's sexology articles to a level where they might begin to make some educational sense. I'd consider that more important than GLAM outreach. That's what I'd like to see a Wikimedia UK chairman do, rather than uploading bondage pictures of himself in an exercise of narcissism. --JN466 14:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

There is currently an multi-wikiproject effort to get Birth control up to Good Article status so we can start translating improvements to some of the wikipedias with relatively large numbers of readers per editors. Please join in and help. 207.224.43.139 (talk) 00:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you know how silly you sound? I had to look at the caning article 3 times looking for that template before noticing it hiding out requiring me to find it and click on it to open those options up. "If you look up gel bracelet, or fuck, you get similar navigation templates leading to articles on the most bizarre, rare or even entirely made-up kinds of kink." Or even entirely made-up kink? That's the point of the box and you're making it part of the argument. I'd never heard of the gel bracelet 'controversy' myself, but if it's considered notable enough to be included, I guess the box fits. Please be specific about what Fuck links to that you don't think someone searching for FUCK doesn't want to see or find. Seriously. --Onorem♠Dil 15:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking first and foremost about everything in the Sexual slang template. Topics like Pearl_necklace_(sexuality), felching, rusty trombone, saddlebacking, glory hole, etc. Many of these articles are poorly sourced, and poorly written, focusing on mentions in pop culture rather than their relationship to and meaning within human sexuality. Psychological insight is usually completely absent. Some of them, like the pearl necklace article, could be converted into redirects (in this case, to mammary intercourse) without loss of encyclopedic value. As encyclopedia articles, they are little better than Urban Dictionary. The whole approach smacks of a curiosity cabinet designed to appeal to Beavis and Butt-head. These articles are well visited, with tens or hundreds of thousands of views each month. Most of them are missed opportunities falling far short of what an encyclopedia should aspire to. Hence the idea to get in some academic help. We've done it for things like public policy and Monmouthpedia; here is a set of high-traffic articles that could desperately do with some improvement and TLC. --JN466 18:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Has WMUK taken legal advice as to whether Mr. van Haeften remains a fit and proper person to run a UK charity?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

This text is going to be a bit messy but here is the advice we work to from the Charity Commission with a short summary above:

Charity Commission guidelines are very clear. Financial impropriety and conflicts of interest, bankruptcy or convictions are the main obstacles.

Official guidance:

E1 Can anyone be appointed as a trustee?

Symbol showing legal requirementThe short answer:

No. There are legal restrictions on who may be a charity trustee. Additional restrictions may be contained in the charity's governing document. Before appointing a new trustee, the trustee board must make sure that the appointment meets the requirements of the charity's governing document and the law.

In more detail:

When preparing to appoint a new trustee, the trustee board must ensure that the person is qualified to act as a trustee. No-one under the age of 18 can be a trustee of a charitable trust or unincorporated association. However 16 is the minimum age for the appointment of a director, and so, a trustee of a charitable company. Further information on young people as trustees can be found on the Publications and Guidance page on our website.

Some people are disqualified by law from acting as trustees, including anyone described in sections 178 - 180 of the Charities Act 2011. This includes:

anyone who has an unspent conviction for an offence involving deception or dishonesty;

anyone who is an undischarged bankrupt;

anyone who has been removed from trusteeship of a charity by the Court or the Commissioners for misconduct or mismanagement; and

anyone under a disqualification order under the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986.

It is normally an offence to act as a trustee while disqualified unless we have given a waiver under section 181 of the Charities Act 2011, (there are some special provisions applying to the administration of charitable companies). Further information about disqualifications and waivers of disqualification can be found in our staff guidance OG41 and OG42 which can be accessed via the Publications and Guidance page on our website.

In addition to the disqualifications detailed in the Charities Act, which apply to all types of charities, the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 disqualifies certain individuals from holding a range of positions in children's charities, which includes charity trusteeship. We do not have the authority to give a waiver for this type of disqualification.

The appointment of a trustee must be in accordance with the charity's governing document, which will set out procedures for appointing new trustees, including any restrictions, such as a maximum number of trustees or an age limit. It is important that trustees follow these procedures. If they don't, this could result in the appointment being invalid. If the governing document contains provisions which prevent certain people from acting as charity trustees, we cannot grant a waiver under section 181 of the Charities Act 2011 as we cannot override the provisions within a governing document.

E2 How should charities check on prospective trustees?

The short answer:

Before appointing a trustee, the trustee board should obtain a declaration from the prospective trustee that they are not disqualified. It should also consult official registers of disqualified persons. We strongly recommend that charities working with vulnerable people, with positions which are eligible to obtain Disclosures from the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB), should do so. In more detail:

As a minimum, the trustee board should ask new trustees to sign a declaration to confirm that they are not disqualified from acting as a charity trustee.

Trustees can also make use of official registers which record the names of people who are disqualified from acting as charity trustees. These include:

(1) The Individual Insolvency Register maintained by the Insolvency Service, which contains details of:

bankruptcies that are either current or have ended in the last three months; current individual voluntary arrangements and fast track voluntary arrangements; and current bankruptcy restriction orders and undertakings.

Searches of the Register can be made on the Insolvency Service website http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/, by visiting your local Official Receiver's office, or by post or fax. You can find contact details for the Insolvency Service in section H.

(2) The register of disqualified directors maintained by Companies House. Searches of the register can be made on the Companies House website, http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/.

(3) The register which we maintain of all persons who have been removed as a charity trustee either by us or by an Order of the High Court since 1 January 1993. A copy of the register is kept in each of the Commission's offices.

Trustees of charities working with children or vulnerable adults should also make additional, more detailed checks, by obtaining a Disclosure from the CRB. We strongly recommend that trustees of charities that can obtain CRB checks take advantage of this option, to ensure both that the person they wish to appoint as a trustee is eligible and to ensure the safety of the charity's beneficiaries. There are some charities that must carry out these checks. You can find more information in section F6.

Further information:

A model declaration form for prospective trustees is available on our website on the About Charities page. Sample declaration of eligibility forms for trustees are also produced by a number of other organisations, including the National Council for Voluntary Organisations (NCVO) http://www.askncvo.org.uk/. You can find more information about the CRB and CRB Disclosures in section F.

Jon Davies WMUK (talk) 11:29, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The story appeared on Fox News (Fifty Shades of Misplaced Pages) an hour ago. From the article: Wikimedia UK chief executive Davies defended the foundation on July 31, writing that meeting to ban Van Haeften was far from secret, as the Telegraph described it, and labelling the ban a sanction at one point. I had read on Misplaced Pages Talk pages about 'Fae', but I had NO IDEA he was on the Wikimedia UK Board until now. Of course that's an entirely different situation! Just what does Davies consider to be 'transparent'?! 184.78.81.245 (talk) 16:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I was at the last two Wikimedia UK AGMs. Both were in Public and Fae was elected both times. His candidacy was not in anyway a secret from the UK chapter or those who follow it. ϢereSpielChequers 17:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

i checked the dates. I assume no one had a TARDIS. 184.78.81.245 (talk) 19:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Annual Conference 12 May 2012

Case Opened on 01:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Case Closed on 22:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

If the Telegraph and Fox News are making noise about this, then that proves that it is good to have Fae stay in his current position. Perhaps ArbCom should think of resigning. The WMF can desysop Admins here, so they could close down ArbCom and reinstate Fae as an editor here. Count Iblis (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

That's some twisted logic right there. High-profile, mainstream news media outlets have now taken notice of a WMUK chair being banned from the Misplaced Pages, the organization that his organization was created to assist. Somehow that proves that Fae was right, Arbcom was wrong, and the bans/resigns should be swapped? Tarc (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I trust he was being sarcastic. Or was stoned. However, the media attention was only a matter of time, especially given the salacious angle. That's why I'm hoping damage control has been contemplated.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

At the end of the day, Misplaced Pages is just a website, and neither The Telegraph nor Fox News know anything about how ArbCom really works. If they knew they would perhaps write something about the amateurish way we do Arbitration here, or they would simply ignore any issues related to Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia that are not related to problematic content. Count Iblis (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If we've lost FoxNews, we've lost Middle America. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Not as far as I can tell. Jon Davies's replies to me suggested that they are following a line that it is impertinent to question poor little Fae just because he was being censured by Arbcom. (I started the correspondence before the ban motion.) If the professional charity runner isn't properly warning volunteer trustees of the trouble they are creating for the charity, then it is hardly surprising that they are taking such bum decisions. Now, is someone there going to have the sense to close the van Haeften chapter before the fundraiser starts and the press can talk about where the money raised goes? The British press won't be dedicating half their space to the Olympics come the Autumn.

As for your original question, they may have taken advice on whether they can be forced to get rid of their Chair, a very different question form whether it is wise to get rid of their Chair. Some people on the Wikimedia UK mailing are talking about getting the signatures together for an EGM about Fae. I suspect that the officials will do their best to obstruct anyone anti-Fae from being able to mail the whole membership and will even then rely on the in-crowd being able to send enough members to an EGM to keep him despite critical votes. Think of all those banks etc that have voted through substantial bonuses for their board despite shareholder and public complaints.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately an EGM is not an option as you need a board member to call one; and that's a non-starter apparently. A number of other options are being actively explored. --Errant 18:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Peter, you've done enough damage already with your campaign. Isn't it time to stop? Prioryman (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

They won't stop. They've barely begun. As I have said before, the failure to do the right thing in the Fae case represented the point where Misplaced Pages stops leaking and starts sinking. Right now, at wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=262 , "banned" Greg Kohs is gloating about his unblockability, right here, right now, on this talk page, after apparently putting User:Scottywong in his place as accompanied by a few A Few Good Men style requests for non-harassment. The mainstream news is printing Peter Cohen's talking points. Now Fae, who did so much good work for WMF, is the one on the outside. The question now is not how to save Misplaced Pages, but how to react to what will presumably be a fairly gradual demise in the most useful way. People still want the things that they'll be censoring, such as the truth, and this creates opportunity. But I fear that Misplaced Pages will follow the same trajectory as Encyclopedia Dramatica; that what survives after a betrayal from within will be only a battle-hardened fragment. Wnt (talk) 20:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy is quite teh funny thing though, don't you think? Right now their front page has an article with the byline "E. A. Barbour", yattering on about "a white or Asian male... with a failing marriage (if he’s not gay, which many of them are)". Maybe this kind of thing goes down well with Fox or the Telegraph or ED readers, but there is probably a civilised part of the world that isn't much impressed. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Fox news article posted link to ED article. Should you consider banning Fox News reporter for creating an attack page on an external web site? Wait a minute, he has no account on Misplaced Pages. Let's ban Larry Sanger instead. D: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.144.167.137 (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I assume that the Telegraph and Fox articles have resulted in a few more journalists and interested observers putting Jimbo's talk page on their watchlists. So, I hope you all continue with the tone of this conversation. It's great stuff for the credibility of Misplaced Pages and its associated projects. Cla68 (talk) 23:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we're fairly safe in terms of the probability that the journalist in question is engaged in any actual research. Formerip (talk) 23:44, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

+1 Silverseren 00:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

+1 The whole text reads like copy and paste. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 11:19, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of Fae's activities with regards to the porn issue, which I personally don't really care about, wasn't he actually banned for trying to sidestep ArbCom for trying to close the Pandora's box of his linked accounts? WRT the AC case, to be honest, I'm much more concerned about the fact that AC can pass a finding of fact that someone has made a serious violation of the harassment policy, yet not ban them, especially when one arbitrator notes that said user has done the same thing before. We've gone a long way since you could be indeffed for editing the same pages as another user. I don't know which situation I like more. Sceptre 00:55, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom used unreliable third hand hearsay evidence to reach the conclusion that Fae was not honest with them. Also, no editor here is without flaws, what really matters is if after some problem has arisen, you can find a way to move forward. Fae had made clear that he would take on board the criticisms that had arisen during the case and would make good on that. But still, ArbCom decided that he needs to be kicked out of Misplaced Pages basically because he was in contempt of ArbCom. So, ArbCom made itself part of the problem here. So, instead of persuing Fae at WMF, what should be discussed is how to reform ArbCom. Count Iblis (talk) 02:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fae had made clear that he would take on board the criticisms that had arisen during the case and would make good on that. - no he did not. If he had "taken on board the criticisms" he would've resigned long time ago and we wouldn't be here, would we (hell, if he had "taken on board the criticisms", there wouldn't even have been an ArbCom case, never-mind newspaper attention)? Instead, what he did is try to weasel his way out of it by offering a non-apology-apology, while at the same time apparently trying to hold on to his position no matter what - in particular, no matter what the damage to the underlying organizations he's suppose to represent. At this point I actually really feel bad for Fae, but that just repeatedly gets trumped by both his self serving refusal to resign his positions of power, as well as this insanely misguided, wrong headed, circling of wagons, "See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil" attitude (if not outright trolling for the lulz) by his supporters (which, ok, maybe isn't exactly his fault, but the fact that he condones it and (probably) encourages it, speaks to intent). Sometimes I can actually imagine a crazy alternative universe where Fae sincerely imagines that someone like Wnt is doing him favors by speaking up. More often I can imagine a slightly less crazy alternative universe where Fae incorrectly believes that having folks like Wnt, and some other of youse, keep up this nonsense, however ridiculous it is, is somehow beneficial to him, strategically. Neither alternative universe is actually real.VolunteerMarek 03:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

You can dismiss what I say as "nonsense", "insane", and so forth. You've made it so that I honestly don't care what you think, and it is indeed rare in any case for you to open your mouth without uttering an insult. But I resent the implication that I've said anything in all of this for any reason but that it is my honest opinion about the relevant issues. Wnt (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

During the case discussion I reacted to ArbCom's position by saying "I think that all users need to be formally warned not to post any information to Misplaced Pages that they do not wish to be permanently and publicly associated with their real name, and to understand that any use of alternate accounts, IPs, etc. to present photos on delicate matters, such as sexually charged topics, will not be respected." And JClemens responded that "That part is basic and common knowledge, and has been for years". What Fae allegedly wanted Philippe to do was to prevent ArbCom from ordering accounts he set up for privacy on Commons, after harassment so severe that even ArbCom recognized it in sanctions against a few people involved who were within their reach. And they banned him for daring to ask that WMF respect privacy on any project, anywhere, for any reason.

I never got any answer as to whether there is any limit on the time they keep information for doing "checkusers", which includes not just IP addresses but browser information. And they can use all this, divulge all this, merely because of an allegation of impropriety, which is not sustained! Remember EFF's "Panopticlick", warning about unethical Big Brother sites following people around the Web? Well Misplaced Pages is the kind of site they were warning people about. And no doubt a shining example for others who are less open about how they use such things to attack people. Wnt (talk) 03:01, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we should have a RFC about ArbCom over this issue to force a community discussion (or perhaps put ArbCom on MFD to basically make it compulsory for the people supporting the present ArbCom system to participate). Count Iblis (talk) 03:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Unless there is some real prospect that there might be a consensus to delete ArbCom, it sounds like you're suggesting we disrupt[REDACTED] to make a point. 1.125.255.240 (talk) 09:17, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I doubt an RFC is going to fix this at this point; it's too hard to get any new people up to speed on all the issues. What I wish is that some members of ArbCom would see that their last resolution has most spectacularly failed to end the underlying conflict, but rather, emboldened the worst of Misplaced Pages. I wish Jimbo would see that these "allies" he accepted by criticizing Fae here are now gleefully tearing down his work. Maybe that would help. Wnt (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, wikiporn is not exactly Jimbo's work. The community did that all by itself, often against Jimbo's express advice, and attacking him when he tried to moderate it. The community made itself this bed to lie in, not Jimbo. JN466 10:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

WOW You just called one-man-deletions a try to moderate, boiled it in "wikiporn" and deemed the whole community as guilty, doing it's job. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 11:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and? Those are the facts. A special share of the responsibility should probably go to the Commons community, which has proven itself wilfully unable to tell the difference between (NSFW) this or (NSFW) this or (NSFW) this, and sex-ed material. JN466 11:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The disgrace is certainly not that Misplaced Pages is open to all kinds of content, but that it is open to political purges of highly respected contributors, and I think the article reflected that. Wnt (talk) 11:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The irony of Jimbo's haphazard and ill-conceived deletion spree is that it resulted in numerous resignations of Commons admins. And here we are today, complaining about how long it takes for things to get deleted, how the backlogs grow, etc. Commons was left worse off for that bit of "moderation". Perhaps a warning some here should consider. Resolute 18:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Simple observation: AvH was told by a number of people to back down at multiple times rather than have this go to ArbCom. He had been advised by many to admit what faults were real, and not to plan on surviving full scrutiny. I suspect this advice was given by people at the higherst level several times. This was not a "political purge" in any sense, it was an attempt by ArbCom to ensure that Misplaced Pages maintains the same rules for all editors, and any other editor who did exactly what AvH did would have been barred a long time since. Lest anyone view me as "Anti-AvH", I would point out my edits at the RfC/U, and at the ArbCom case as indicating that I hoped the case would not be dragged out to a conclusion involving banning anyone. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Idea for course of action

• I was thinking this over for awhile, and I think one course of action that concerned WM UKer's should consider, since the current Board is covering their ears with their hands, is to start their own, competing WM UK organization. Then, petition the WMF to rescind the current WM UK's charter and recognize the new organization as the rightful WM UK. Follow that up with a notification to the UK government that the original WM UK is no longer recognized by the WMF. Jimbo could actually be of help in getting something like this done. Cla68 (talk) 01:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• By the way, a petition for an EGM has been posted. All interested parties should participate. Cla68 (talk) 01:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Someone over there might want to fix the link at wmuk:Call for EGM 2012#Statement to link to w:en:User:Fæ instead of to w:uk:User:Fæ (taht's teh Ukrainian Misplaced Pages;). Br'er Rabbit (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Just to note that it was been fixed. KTC (talk) 08:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fae has resigned

I've just had an email from Jon Davies saying Ashley has resigned and a new chair is to be elected tonight. Dougweller (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Well, there you go. ArbCom has no jurisdiction outside of Misplaced Pages (oh wait, they actually do, despite policy), but they sure as heck can have a very massive effect on someone's life, effectively ruining them. Yet, they undergo no training. Jimbo, I wonder when WMF will start to think this is a highly irresponsible approach to management of this project? --Hammersoft (talk) 14:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

As a person who is fairly unfamiliar with this, only having seen it on the sidelines for a while, how do you suppose this escalated so far if this Fae person is 'innocent' of anything, and what would have avoided all the drama? -- Avanu (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• I am not asserting guilt or innocence on the part of Fae. That isn't the point. The point is that ArbCom has no formal training whatsoever, and their decisions have directly affected the professional life of an editor here. Neither of these points of fact are apparently in dispute. The fact that ArbCom can and has had a direct effect on someone's professional life yet lack any formal training for their appointed roles speaks to a very serious management issue on the part of Jimbo and/or the WMF. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:46, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not persuaded by this at all. What sort of formal training would have changed the outcome here? They made a very solid decision based on facts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Jimbo, I can not further respond to this here without getting knee-jerk blocked for making supposed legal threats (which I haven't, and won't). Saying that much by itself should be enough to shed light on the very serious nature of what has happened in recent cases. Juxtaposing that with ArbCom's status as an amateur body should be alarming to you. If it isn't, then there's not much point in further discussion on the training issue. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:35, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't a unanimous decision, and the minority included a lawyer - NewYorkBrad, which rather boosts Hammersoft's point re Arbcom needing formal training. As for the idea that it was based on "facts", the turning point for the ban was because of a conversation between two people at Wikimania. The majority of Arbcom decided not to believe one of those people's versions of the conversation and I'm not aware that they even checked with the other that they'd correctly interpreted his version. Even if you have rung the other person in that conversation and asked him whether Arbcom correctly interpreted his version of events as contradicting Fae's, it would be stretching a point to describe the decision to ban Fae as based on facts. ϢereSpielChequers 00:22, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

What kind of professional life exactly is affected by being banned from wikipedia?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the Telegraph article Fae is an IT Project Manger in RL and he had a "volunteer role" as Chair of Wikimedia UK i.e. unpaid. Hamersoft's point therefore seems overstated. I suppose it might be relevant to a Wikimedia employee who was indeffed. But presumably any admin could do that, not just ArbCom. DeCausa (talk) 16:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Not overstated at all. What if Fae should re-enter the job market and would-be employers search the Internet for articles about him? ArbCom's decision has had a direct effect on his professional life. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Then he'll be in the situation of any other person who's gotten himself in trouble by doing stuff on the internet they wouldn't like their future or current bosses to know about. That is not really on the order of human rights violations in my book. Doing stuff on the internet has consequences and they are not always predictable. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

• That's kinda what happens to guilty people; they don't get the benefit of a clean reputation anymore. Tarc (talk) 17:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• That would be fair and equitable if the system under which a person was found guilty were fair and equitable. That is not the case with ArbCom. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• I guess we must have different recollections of what actually happens in an Arbcom case. My recollection is that everyone who wants to gets to have a say, present evidence, and argue the arguments. Sounds pretty fair & equitable to me, unless one's definition of fair & equitable is "its only fair if you find in my favor". Tarc (talk) 18:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• I have found a number of shortcomings in the ArbCom process. One of them is the inability of respondents to view all evidence being held by ArbCom against them. I consider that to be unfair. Another is the word limit restrictions on the accused parties. On small cases, this is not an issue. On large cases with many editors submitting evidence, it permanently hamstrings the accused from adequately responding to evidence presented. I consider that to be unfair. ArbCom is not required to show any linkage between Remedies and Findings of Fact. In essence, this constitutes summary judgement. I think this is unfair. Arbitrators can list themselves as recused for a case, but can vote for acceptance of that case. I think this is unfair. I could go on for quite a while here. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, escalation means that disputes get more heated not that disputes get resolved. So if one points to an escalation, then that is usually a sign of a failed dispute resolution process and it typically doesn't tell you much about who was right or wrong in the underlying dispute that started it all. E.g. in April 2004 there was a big battle in Falluja, and that could eventually be traced back to Saddam's WMD, that actually did not exist. Count Iblis (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

None of this would have ensued had Fae said "mea culpa" at the RfC/U and placed himself up for RfA again. Collect (talk) 16:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

That might be true, but I wonder if you're underestimating the determination of his pursuers. Formerip (talk) 17:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• ...Or underestimating ArbCom's lack-of-training induced incompetence. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hold on here, Hammersoft. What kind of "training" do you think arbitrators should have? Who is going to pay for it? Given that arbitrators are spread around the globe, what if they aren't in a position to fly to wherever it is that the training will be held? If some sort of training was offered, would arbitrators (and Arbcom candidates) then get ripped for "wasting" donation money? On what grounds are you correlating lack of "training" with the result of Fae's situation? Is there a reason why you are not inquiring what kind of training is provided to Chapter board members and chairs (who have access to funds to pay for such training)? I do hope you will run for the Arbitration Committee this fall, so that you can actively participate in addressing the concerns you seem to have. Risker (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I really admire you for giving his accusations a serious response.. --Conti|✉ 18:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I've moved further discussion on this point to the subsection below. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

As is said in government resignations, his presence had become a distraction. That's an actual issue, not just some line. This had gone beyond blaming and finger-pointing. This needed to be ended so Misplaced Pages could move on. The Telegraph has reported his resignation and what's coming next. Quote from Davies: "He is keen that there should be no division in the Wikimedia UK community over his role as Chair, especially at a time when so many great things are being achieved. He has therefore resigned as Chair." 184.78.81.245 (talk) 18:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Yea - Anonymous users (ya-all know who you are) that encouraged and supported Fae towards this real life crash due to his being real life exposed should be ashamed. - This site has a serious problem with advocacy and promotion of minority issues by interested users. A few anonymous users with fringe beliefs caused all this shameful issue - and they are still here , this is not over at all, there are still serious problems at Commons and at Wiki UK - The Arbcom made a simple easy and clearly correct decision in this case. - Youreallycan 18:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Support blue - a quick look at the users edit history shows a single focus on supporting blue - User supports blue. Keep anything blue - lol - Youreallycan 19:19, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• "What if Fae should re-enter the job market and would-be employers search the Internet for articles about him? "

  I believe that that is covered by: WP:REALNAME? - jc37 19:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

  So, since we have a policy on this it's ok for anyone to say anything about someone, most especially if it is their real name? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

  See WP:HARASS, WP:OUTING in particular. (easier for me to point to the sections than to try to re-explain what is already there.) - jc37 19:46, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom training

Risker, I'm splitting this out so it isn't buried in the above thread; it's an important point and one worth discussion I think, whether here or elsewhere.

Hold on here, Hammersoft. (Q1) What kind of "training" do you think arbitrators should have? (Q2) Who is going to pay for it? (Q3) Given that arbitrators are spread around the globe, what if they aren't in a position to fly to wherever it is that the training will be held? (Q4) If some sort of training was offered, would arbitrators (and Arbcom candidates) then get ripped for "wasting" donation money? (Q5) On what grounds are you correlating lack of "training" with the result of Fae's situation? (Q6) Is there a reason why you are not inquiring what kind of training is provided to Chapter board members and chairs (who have access to funds to pay for such training)? (Q7) I do hope you will run for the Arbitration Committee this fall, so that you can actively participate in addressing the concerns you seem to have. Risker (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Risker, I've taken the liberty of adding "Qx" numbering notation to your questions to better enable my responses. I hope you don't mind. Responding to your questions:

Q1: There are a number of professional opportunities for arbitration training (ex: ). Some organizations require such training (ex: ). I am quite confident that the WMF could contract with one or more professionals in this field to develop a body of training appropriate to what arbitration committees are tasked with.

Q2: The WMF.

Q3: Online training opportunities are virtually ubiquitous in today's world. Disparate geophysical locations are no longer an obstacle to training.

Q4: There are plenty of contrasting questions to this, such as can we afford not to?

Q5: The answer is self evident. If you have an arbitration panel consisting of people with no training in arbitration, it is unreasonable to expect competent results.

Q6: I am not discussing the WMF or Chapter board members; my attention here is ArbCom. I believe the WMF suffers from a number of problems. I have commented elsewhere about such issues.

Q7: First, I choose to remain only in the most important position on this project; editor. Someone even once forced me to have the rollbacker right. I asked for it to be undone by that person (and they did). Second, membership or lack thereof in ArbCom does not qualify me or disqualify me from participating in effecting change with ArbCom. Your membership on ArbCom does not confer any rights on you to effect change or prevent change on ArbCom. I fail to see how my being on ArbCom would grant me any special powers.

--Hammersoft (talk) 18:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

You've got some problems here with your logic, Hammersoft. I can accept that you (and many others) don't like the result of a case. That does not mean that "training" would have given a different result. And, excuse me, but you've failed to address the cost issue appropriately. Arbcom does not have access to WMF funds. If the WMF was to sponsor "education" for arbitrators, it would have to do so for all of the arbitration committees — roughly 100 people spread around the world — and these sessions cost in the range of $10,000 per person. Now, I'm not opposed to being provided with "training", but that's an awful lot of money, especially if travel expenses are added in. (And no, there's no way to justify training *only* English Misplaced Pages arbitrators, except possibly as an "experiment".) Frankly, quite a few arbitrators over the year have been elected by the community *because* they aren't involved in any other WMF-related activities, and in some cases at least in part for voicing opposition to proposals from the WMF. How can they retain their independence from the WMF if, as a requirement of being a member of the committee, they must take a WMF-sponsored (and approved) training session? What happens to an arbitrator who does not participate in this training - is their election by the community invalidated? If they don't "pass" the course, are they forced to resign? Are they going to be compensated in some way for taking this mandatory education you propose?

And I very much disagree with your belief that Arbcom membership does not confer any "rights" to effect change on the committee; if I believed that, I wouldn't bother wasting my time. Arbitrators are chosen specifically because they are *not* puppets on a string, as far as I can tell. I've never seen any candidate supported with words like "will do exactly what we tell him to do" or "has no desire to change things so is perfect". I think perhaps you're a bit out of step with the community on that point. Risker (talk) 19:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• My concerns vis-a-vis training have nothing to do with a particular case. I am not expecting a different result for a particular case as a result of training. Your assertion that training would cost $10,000 per person is unsupported. Yes, if they did not take the training they would not be permitted to serve. This is no different than the current requirement that the WMF must have arbitrators' real identities on file. You believe that being on ArbCom grants you special privileges to effect change on ArbCom? What special privileges might those be? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, Hammersoft, as I write this I've got half a dozen promotional packets from recognized traning groups for different types of dispute resolution training, and the least expensive of the lot is $15,000 for a course, with prices ranging upwards of $50,000. Now, having worked with similar programs before, I figure if we were really lucky, we could get a stripped-down course without certification for quite a bit less; however, any customization of the training would result in a commensurate increase in cost. Have you done any research on it at all? Are you aware of any courses that specialize in dispute resolution for online forums?

And yes, I believe that the broad support of the community granted to members of the Arbitration Committee confers a responsibility on the committee to address concerns and to consider and develop new processes - usually in consultation with the community. The AUSC was developed in consultation with the community, and features community members. Community involvement in selection of checkusers and oversighters was developed in consultation with the community. But at the end of the day, the community has selected the members of the Arbitration Committee to make decisions; that's our responsibility. If you want to restructure arbitration process (including candidate selection and appointment requirements, case management, grant applications to the WMF, and so on), that's up to you, but don't expect other people to do the heavy lifting for you. At this point, you've not illustrated that there's actually a problem that the community feels should be fixed. You've still not shown any correlation between "training" and results. Risker (talk) 19:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Well Risker, as I write this I have zero assessments on my desk of the training required, means of conducting that training, and expenses involved. No, I haven't done any research on it at all and neither have you, so you are not in any more position to declare what the expenses of the training would be anymore than I am. Discussing what the costs are now is seriously cart before the horse. We don't know what the needs are as no assessment has been done. We don't know what the alternatives are to addressing those needs. But, we're ready to conclude what the costs are? I don't understand this. Why is there such resistance on your part? I'm not asking you to do any heavy lifting. But criminy I'm not asking you to do heavy lifting to shoot it down either. Accepting a structure where group incompetence is guaranteed is astonishing. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• You have to have estimates on what potential training would cost before you do the assessments because you have to know if its worth the time and effort to do the assessment to begin with. That is standard operating procedure out in the real world. So it is definitely not cart before the horse. If you think the arbs should be trained its up to you to make your case by doing a mini assessment on your own which would include estimated prices so you can make your pitch the community at large to take the time and effort to do a full assessment and proposal. You certainly never jump into this kind of assessment without already having done a cursory assessment on which to decide if a full scale assessment should be done. -DJSasso (talk) 19:49, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow, thanks, Hammersoft. In what way is "group incompetence" guaranteed? Is this the way you feel about all elected roles? You've been going on about the need for "training" for arbitrators for quite a while now in various forums, but you've not given any indication of what *you* think arbitrators need to be trained to do. Dispute resolution programs resulting in certification are very expensive; customized ones even more so, because their potential audience is limited. They're also very time-consuming, between 50 and 500 hours of time that a person needs to invest. As I said below, it's your cart, and you started it careering down the hill. Time for you to start supporting your own claims. Risker (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I take it Hammersoft is not a fan of representative democracy. - Jorgath (talk) 20:01, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• So now we have to devolve into my political stance in order to shoot this down?!?!?!?! Really? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, and I'll strike that. I was trying to make a point through sarcasm, and text didn't convey it. I stand by my intended point though: ArbCom is an elected body. We elect them because we think they're the right people for the job. If we didn't think that, we could elect other people instead. - Jorgath (talk) 21:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

And I trust you will pay the (roughly) $50K per person needed for that training by reputable in-person trainers. Short seminars would only run $5K per person, so let's be cheap and ask who will pay the $80K+ for the training. In short - we might as well ask that editors be trained as well while we are at it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• And now Risker's unsupported assertion of $10K per person balloons to an unsupported $50K per person? There's plenty of 4 year institutions that would not require $50k in tuition to graduate. We're not talking about a four year degree in arbitration here. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The figures are real - I suggest you look at college fee schedules for post-graduate studies on this. A four year course would run on the order of $150K plus. It is a specialized post-graduate area. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• • Hammersoft, if you feel those numbers are unrealistic, would you do the research that finds otherwise? Personally, I think that 50K is unrealistic, but although 10K seems excessive and unfair, it's probably pretty accurate. Running off my own guesstimates, though, I'd predict $7500 per person for a 2-day training, not including travel expenses. I'm also going to guesstimate a flat $20K one-time for developing the training curriculum. I'll take Risker's number of 100 arbs across the various projects at face value. That comes to $770K total, just for current arbs. And any new arbs would have to be trained, too. Guesstimate of 20 new arbs a year who haven't been trained previously. So $770K the first time, and an additional $150K a year. Even going for conservatively cheap guesstimates, that adds up bigtime. Where does the money come from? - Jorgath (talk) 19:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I don't think any assessment of the cost of training can be done until a decision is made about what that training would comprise. The entire model of training would have to be concluded as well before any assessment could be made. If online training were done, for example, no travel would be required. We're putting the cart before the horse here "bigtime". --Hammersoft (talk) 19:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's your cart, Hammersoft, and your case to make. Risker (talk) 19:42, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Therefore, best to shoot it down before it gets off the table? Wow. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And, just to add, that model-design would probably cost money to put it together in a way that will be taken seriously too. If I were you, I'd start there - put together a proposal that the WMF commission a study into the viability and cost-effectiveness of this idea. It'll cost money too, but it's a good enough idea that the numbers should be figured out. - Jorgath (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom's problem is that they made the wrong political decision. I don't know if they really dreamed that banning Fae was going to end the drama, or are so arrogant that they really can't accept someone would want to preserve a right to privacy on other projects or think that asking WMF for help was acceptable, or if they were fully in on the plan with the WO people, or if they were just plain scared of what would happen to them if they didn't play along. But training wouldn't fix this - it would just help them to talk more conventionally in that faux-caring, not so subtly condescending tone used by professional "human relations" people everywhere to put down the people they sort and discard. Wnt (talk) 19:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Risker, you took every opportunity to shoot down this discussion. You want to assert thousand and (even hundreds of!) thousands of dollars to train ArbCom I obliged you by closing it, but you forcibly re-opened it. We couldn't even get to the point of discussion on possible benefits of this before you shot it to pieces with your assertions of cost. Maybe, just MAYBE people could come up with a way to provide reasonable training to ArbCom without it costing an arm and a leg, eh? No, that's impossible. Shoot it down, with a vengeance. I'm shaking my head in disbelief. NOTHING will come from this discussion precisely because of your passionate resistance to it even before we had a chance to discuss. Prove me wrong. I dare you to approach ArbCom with the idea, and work towards a possible training solution. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Hammersoft, that's not how it works. It's your idea, YOU have the burden of setting it up. If you want to ask other people to help you do that, may I suggest the Village Pump? - Jorgath (talk) 20:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Ah, right. So, I create an article and everybody tears it down, with the excuse that it's my burden to get the article to FA before someone deletes it? I seem to recall that isn't the model we used on that thing we used to call Misplaced Pages. You know, where a bunch of madmen had the outrageous idea that people would work together towards a common goal? I know, it's a fairy tale, but still... --Hammersoft (talk) 00:32, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

• Well this is not an article. People have pointed out the hurdles you have to overcome for your proposal to be viable, we can all come up with ideas if they aren't viable, then yes they'll be ignored. If you want to put it in article terms: you go to AFC and pitch an article, various experienced editors point out you lack sources for notability, the concept is unverifiable and it's basically a bunch of original research. Do we (a) create the article, then list it for deletion or (b) tell you what's wrong with it before that happens. Of course after we've done (b) you could go away and do the research, maybe get past the problems and create a great article proving everyone wrong, or of course you could just become very indignant and throw your toys around. I know which one most people will find a mature and potentially impressive response. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 06:21, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

• Slight change in direction here. While I don't think that spending a lot of donor money on an illusory and ill-defined "training program" is a good leap at this point, Hammersoft isn't totally off the wall; I think he's just moving far too fast. There is something to be said for the idea of finding ways for our project (and our sister projects) to identify and develop leaders in various areas, including dispute resolution. Perhaps a first step would be developing a questionnaire to be circulated amongst the 10 largest communities, or the various arbitration committees, to better understand how slightly different communities handle issues - with the objective of learning from each other's experiences, and perhaps developing some best practices. I am fairly certain that this is something that could gain WMF support. Any thoughts about this? Risker (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

(e/c, randomish placement) Sharing of best practice would be a good idea, and certainly fits in with editor retention (though there's that weird disconnect between one view that most editors don't pay any attention to ArbCom and the other that ArbCom is simply destroying the very will of our best and brightest). I must say, though I was quite skeptical of WP:DRN, it seems to have worked out pretty well. That noticeboard, and many others, are our development grounds, and to me it's not hard to see which are the leaders in successfully resolving issues. The tricky bit is to get them to stand for the Arbitration Committee, which too often seems to be the ultimate punishment. Franamax (talk) 21:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Good, cool headed, objective, expert analysis and decision making takes an immense range of qualities, knowledge and skills. I have a hard time imagining training that would do much for that. North8000 (talk) 20:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• It seems rather excessive to demand that people voted into arbcom should require more training than people voted into the legislative bodies of most of the world's countries (i.e. none). Secondly there seems to be no reasonable grounds to expect that training would have changed their decision (to my surprise I often find that no matter the degree of training they receive people still disagree with me...). ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Is ArbCom a legislative body though?

Most strategic decision-making groups within organisations of any sort of stature have a training budget. I would imagine the WMF board has one. I would say the question is whether we consider ArbCom and its decisions important enough to merit one. Personally, I think there are problems with ArbCom, but they're not to do with training. Usually, you're training decision-makers around their brief and parameters, but those are not well-defined for ArbCom. Formerip (talk) 22:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I see Arbs as more akin to magistrates than politicians, and where I come from Magistrates get training. Mind you so do most politicians, not as an official precondition for standing, but as part of their role, and in most parties as a requirement for being approved as a candidate for that party. ϢereSpielChequers 23:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• I don't really see this going somewhere. Arbcom has ruined someone's professional and, likely, personal life. Doesn't matter to them, i'm sure they don't even care. Funny enough, that's one of the things about Arbcom, they don't really have to care about the effects of their actions. It's not a real job, they're not getting paid, so if they happen to harm people along the way, no biggee. The only control the community apparently has over them is who is elected, so make sure not to vote for any of the current Arbs in the next election. I know i'm not going to. Silverseren 21:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

So what then, the only ArbCom candidates worth voting for are those who would never ban anyone, lest that "ruin" some aspect of their life? Or just those editors who use their real names, they get the magic immunity of not having to answer for their actions? Or just the editors you personally agree should be banned? Or is it really truly just the current dastardly and corrupt lot, but smooth sailing thereafter? Your voter guide to the next AC election will doubtless make interesting reading. Franamax (talk) 22:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

My last comment wasn't even in reference to this case specifically. Really the cumulative amount of cases since the new Arbcom was elected. They've just not been making good case decisions altogether. Silverseren 23:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I think this "Arbcom ruined..." meme needs to be nipped in the bud before some clueless sucker actually gets deceived into beliving you're saying something truthful. The reality of the situation is that Ashely Van Haeften ruined Ashley Van Haeften's professional and personal life. This is what can potentially happen when one uploads semi-naked pictures of oneself to the internet, or behaves in a disruptive, abusive manner on a public encyclopedia project and becomes rather careless about leaving breadcrumbs behind on who he is in real life. Negative actions have negative consequences. Tarc (talk) 02:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest you striking the "sucker" and those ban-because-of-defending-naked-picture claims. The Arbitration case could not be clearer that the ban is not enforced for his stance on those media or his sexual preference, but puppetry and consistent verbal abuse. While his stance on defending those media could be the cause of his behavior, this is entirely his own problem. Being a gay doesn't automatically make me feel sympathetic to his homophobia claim, it's just a cheap way to shirk responsibility. But now the media believe this and use it in the headlines, I can't say I would forgive him if he decides to plea for unban after some time. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 02:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, I think the idea of providing dispute resolution, group problem solving, arbitration, project management, or critical thinking training for members of ArbCom isn't such a bad idea. The WMF does appear to have enough money right now to fund it. One way to go about it would be for each arbitrator to choose a training course in their local area, then petition the WMF to pay for it. I think the current ArbCom is doing a fairly good job, but there isn't any reason why attending training might not give them some good ideas for how to improve their deliberative processes. Cla68 (talk) 22:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I would cautiously support that, whilst keeping in mind that decent training is generally $1000+ per day. But I would be more likely to support the idea for editors farther down the dispute-resolution chain (DRN, RSN, FTN, PUI, WQA, MedXXX) where disputes can actually get resolved. By the time it gets to ArbCom, it's generally already become a slash-and-burn issue. Franamax (talk) 23:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Further down the chain things are more rule-bound, effects are less wide reaching and there's not an identifiable group of editors to be trained. Formerip (talk) 00:28, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I could easily identify at least 5 or 6 editors off the top of my head who are top-notch at those boards and could likely benefit from further training. They are the people we should be developing for the longer term, and whether or not they join ArbCom, their improved skills will benefit the encyclopedia for as long as they choose to volunteer. The current ArbCom is subject to intense NYB-reasonableness radiation, so I would suggest they have access to all the training they need. Franamax (talk) 01:01, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfounded assumptions

I think there seem to be some assumptions above that the public fallout over Fae's banning was not foreseen. While I won't pretend to speak for anyone else, I will say that for my part, this scenario was not unanticipated, but that the evidence before the committee compelled me to vote for Fae's ban despite the negative consequences. Sometimes, one has to do what one believes to be right, no matter how unpopular the consequences. By all means, disagree with me over whether the consequences were worth voting as I did, or whether my votes were the correct ones based on the evidence (note: that's rhetorical, as people already have done both), but don't assume that all of ArbCom are so stupid that we cannot see the potential political fallout. I think it's a fair question to ask each arbitrator in the next election, but here's my response: I wished this didn't have to happen, but I was not going to let what I still believe to have been an attempt to exert backroom influence on the community by a chapter officer in a conversation with a WMF employee go unnoted solely for the sake of avoiding negative public press. The mess, I'm afraid, was not of my making, and I was not and am not willing to be part of a cover-up of such an ethics breach. Jclemens (talk) 01:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that this judgement about how bad his behavior was, is correct then it is still not clear why he had to be site banned. I can understand that the ArbCom findings imply that Fae cannot be in an position of trust like an Admin or be a checkuser. But there is nothing to suggest that Fae is unsuitable for simply editing Misplaced Pages. Also, even if there were some problems with his editing, then the banning policy says "Editors are only site-banned as a last resort, usually for extreme or very persistent problems that have not been resolved by lesser sanctions and that often resulted in considerable disruption or stress to other editors."

So, not only should there have been extreme and persistent problems with Fae editing here (which ArbCom said were not there), dealing with such problems with remedies lesser than a site ban should likely have failed. Count Iblis (talk) 02:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

So are you saying that if it were not the head of WMUK but some random editor (or admin?) who contacted the WMF liason to request the WMF protect his right to not disclose personal information about his Commons accounts, you would not ban him? Wnt (talk) 03:14, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

(Ignoring the mischaracterization of the conversation for the sake of brevity...) Of course not, because Fae's position was part of the problem: . Jclemens (talk) 03:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

And as an addendum, the statement of not-unexpected consequences above is really not an invitation to further discuss Fae's history of problems with honesty that led to the ban. My statements on the matter elsewhere are sufficiently open and as exhaustive as I believe to be healthy. Jclemens (talk) 03:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Then Fae was banned for two things, neither one of which is an offense: a) asking for help, and b) being head of WMUK. To be clear, from what you've written here and there, it is a logical conclusion that Fae was banned for being head of WMUK under some specific circumstances where otherwise he would not have been. No where in policy does it say that heads of Wikimedia chapters are subject to any different rules than anyone else. You say that he deserved special treatment i.e. being indefinitely banned for "numerous violations" because of his position. I don't know if he sought special treatment in the opposite direction (to escape desysoping, for example), but I think the wave of publicity in international media he has suffered demonstrates that there was some reason for him to receive it. In any case there can be no justification here for jumping to an extreme punishment merely because you say he sought leniency by what should have been a permissible route. Wnt (talk) 09:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

You are once again completely misrepresenting what people say, you know. Jclemens quite clearly said that Fae was banned for attempting to use their position as chair of WMUK to create improper interference with ArbCom. I'm getting sick of seeing you (and several others) completely twist what other people say in order to fit your preconceived notions. - Jorgath (talk) 11:47, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Funny enough, nobody seems to care about the news articles. Sure, it's getting reblogged to other newspapers a bit, but rather minimally, considering. And the views on them aren't that spectacular.

The Olympics probably factors into that. And the simple fact that no one really cares. At this point, the recent Misplaced Pages study appears to have already gotten more coverage than anything to do with Fae. Silverseren 10:07, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

"Somebody you've never heard of gets in trouble for moderately unpleasant behaviour at job you would never have guessed existed, resigns from organisation you didn't know existed" is not a compelling newspaper headline. WilyD 10:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

That's probably why the papers are sticking the word porn in anywhere they can, no matter how erroneous it makes the articles. Silverseren 10:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Fcite stuck in approval cycles

The Template:Fcite (and related 5x-faster citation templates) have been stuck in formal approval cycles, for nearly a month. The original intent was to allow use of quick cite templates in slow major articles (>5,000 pageviews/day), to format cites 5-6x faster, enabling those articles to edit-preview or reformat 3x faster (6-13 seconds rather than 18 to 39 seconds, like most nations: Brazil, Canada, U.S., Egypt, Israel). Unfortunately, the related TfD for Fcite was closed, incorrectly, as basically, "Don't delete don't use" which, for templates, is nonsense akin to an article as "Keep don't read" or "Keep but text visibility off". Instead, the growing consensus was, actually, "carefully improve, test and deploy" but the TfD was closed incorrectly, and I amended to request a formal re-close as clarified (TfD Fcite amended). Meanwhile, adding more features, to the Fcite templates, has been a slippery slope where each added feature leads to another, and eventually, over 450 parameters are being checked in {Fcite_journal} while still 5x faster. Unfortunately, that has led to another Catch-22, where more parameters should encourage and hasten wider acceptance from users wanting more features, but more parameters means testing becomes more complex, which can further delay acceptance instead. The simplest solution seems to be to offer an extremely simple template, easy to test, and clearly indicate the few parameters supported, while not involving the "85 rare parameters" which have made parameter-testing another complex approval cycle. Otherwise, this is another case of "21 pages" being approved in 2 years. We reached this point because "wp:Don't worry about performance" allowed Template:Citation/core to become a slow, sluggish giant, when instead, it should have been improved, or circumvented 3 years ago, due to known performance problems. Now, it is bureaucratically embedded into 1.6 million articles, and attempts to improve are met with technical limitations and extreme resistance to change. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Cool story, bro. Now some facts.

• You created a suite of stripped down templates with limited functionality
• They rendered more quickly than the existing ones
• You deployed them without testing
• But they did not work very well so were removed from articles where they were used
• A TfD discussion was opened
• And closed with the words "no consensus to delete, but there is consensus that this should be kept as a testbed, for helping to improve existing citation templates, and not deployed in article space"
• You disagree with the close and choose to ignore it instead of seeking a review.

Have I left anything out? pablo 11:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Forgot to mention 25 revisions to meet user requests: Meanwhile, the reality is that several users noted they wanted more parameters and would support consensus to keep, if using extra parameters was not as limited, so I made over 25 more revisions to the Fcite templates to support more parameters (see history of {Fcite_web} or {Fcite_journal} ). I disagreed with the closing admin, and requested a revised closure, which is proper. Since the templates were not TfD-deleted, then a "deletion review" is not needed. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sort of covers it. It's only an approval cycle because it has been made one. For most other people it is just: "not approved" and that is then called 'consensus'. I also invite everyone who is really concerned about Cite performance to invest the time into a proper PHP extension instead. Several attempts have already been made, to finish just requires a whole lot more of refinement and effort, but it's doable and would be even faster than a Scribunto based replacement (which btw also would benefit from more developers). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:15, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Meanwhile, the Fcite templates are ready for use: I have no objections to developing a "proper PHP extension" to format citations someday; however, meanwhile, the expanded, improved {Fcite} templates are ready for use, now, in major articles, to allow edit-preview or reformat of large articles to run 3x faster. A re-reading of the TfD for Fcite will confirm that many users expressed support for using the templates, with requests to allow the extra parameters now added, and to comply with wp:CITEVAR to show the same citation format as in Help:Citation_style_1. There is really no big deal here. The TfD was merely closed with the incorrect wording as, "not deployed in article space" which should be instead, "tested then deployed in article space". -Wikid77 (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If you deploy this in articles despite the TfD closure not to, you will find yourself blocked for disruption. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 14:06, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure why you would suggest that in writing "not deployed in article space" the closing admin meant "tested then deployed in article space". Given results of the last deployment, your assertion that they are *now* ready and fit for purpose is not too inspiring, either. pablo 15:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Compromise consensus was test before deployment: The consensus position, between Delete and Use-regardless, is the middle ground, as to be "tested then deployed in article space". There was concern that the operation of the templates was not yet acceptable for author-name links, so the prior testing in articles is needed before saving an article edit. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Bzzt. You Made That Up. Please be a collegial participant and use what you've developed to "improve existing citation templates". We need fewer varieties of citation, not more. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 01:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Tell you what, make a few (how's 10 sound?) userspace copies of existing large articles, test them out, and give us links to the results. Or open a new RfC on the Pump. - Jorgath (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The prior revisions of 30 articles already use the templates, but they were reverted in the later revisions. See articles: "Canada", "Brazil", "Sandra Bullock", "United States", "Egypt", "Misplaced Pages", "India", etc. Compare the reformat time of the prior revisions edited by "Wikid77" (every prior revision of an article will reformat every time when displayed). -Wikid77 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't have time to check all of them, but I checked "Canada." At a guesstimate, my very slow work connection took 3-5 seconds less (still a long time, it's a really bad connection) on your version (here) and I didn't see anything broken. My recommendation, if that holds true for the others, is to take these results to the Village Pump with a new RfC to request that these be authorized now that you've fixed them. - Jorgath (talk) 19:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the language used by the closing admin at the TfD doesn't make much sense. "Keep and test forever" sounds more like an Aperture Science policy than a closing comment on a Misplaced Pages template. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 00:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Where do these performance numbers come from? "6-13 seconds rather than 18 to 39 seconds" seems utterly incompatible with my editing experience. Perhaps this must be some new meaning of the word "second" of which I was previously unaware. And are the performance improvements server-side or client-side? bobrayner (talk) 09:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong - I'm all in favour of optimisation if heavily-used templates are causing performance problems - but everything has a cost:benefit ratio. In this case, there would be significant (non-performance) costs in terms of changing how we use templates which are at the heart of WP:V. So we'd better make sure the benefits are clear, and measured sanely. bobrayner (talk) 12:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I thought so, too, Bob, but then I tried editing all of India at once, and got similar numbers for myself. Still think if we're going to fork the citation templates, it makes more sense to fork the instances using "rare" parameters and slim down the core templates so that articles in general benefit. Choess (talk) 16:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The current Signpost suggests we will be seeing Lua a lot sooner than expected, perhaps this month. (Lua is a programming language that will be callable by a template, and which drastically speeds up stuff like the refs being discussed here, although of course it will take ages to code and test.) Johnuniq (talk) 01:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear Jimbo.

Feast your eyes on the mess that is Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates. Ain't it wonderful? --Τασουλα (talk) 22:06, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

ITN should be abolished for outright subjective reasons AND encouraging the creation of NOTNEWS articles as justification on an encycopaedia instead of wikinews. Every dadmin uses their own opinion of consensus and update with wildy varying standards. As opposed to DYK which has a fixed objective criteria and is almost always notable. The later doesnt even have the slanging matches and hindrance to change/reform.(Lihaas (talk) 00:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)).

What are we supposed to be seeing here? --Carnildo (talk) 00:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I also don't get it. Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates seems like a reasonably well run discussion, I've never seen something on the front page that seemed to be a problem, and people I know in real life, who don't know I edit Misplaced Pages, have remarked to me that they like it. WilyD 07:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

e-mail

Why Misplaced Pages is a failure

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Still-24-45-42-125&pe=1& Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 04:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I've deleted the previous comment in this thread because it is an insulting personal attack. I've read the talk page and the 3RR report, and Still-24-45-42-125 seems to have been hard done by. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:00, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree to an extent. Basically, My question is this. Did Still violate 3RR? No. Did they edit-war? Borderline. Does the person who reported them have a demonstrated intent to get them blocked? Yes - Still provided a diff that supports that clearly. In other words, I wouldn't have blocked, and I would have unblocked, were I an admin. I would have trout-slapped Still, though. - Jorgath (talk) 12:01, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Still24 "energetically edited" on several pages, including Thomas Sowell, Mitt Romney, War on Women, Chick-Fil-A, etc. all in the space of a few days on "silly season" articles.

He also warned other editors (vide , ) about "edit warring" of all things!

And "participated" at WP:DRN at where his parting shot was Got plenty more reliable sources where that came from, but you've cloaked like a Romulan, so I expect that you won't even try to rebut my argument so one might see a problematic editor to say the least. I seriously doubt that he would have gone another week without another EW finding. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)