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Gynandromorphophilia

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. — James Cantor (talk) 01:21, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. — James Cantor (talk) 03:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. — James Cantor (talk) 04:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Gynandromorphophilia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)

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POV fork of Attraction to transgender people. Duplicates material there. Fork is created by a single-purpose account who is an activist minority in the mental health field known for attempting to create and promote an ever-growing list of "paraphilias." See work by Karen Franklin, Vernon Rosario and others for details on this controversy. Recommend merge and redirect to reinstate redirect. Jokestress (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Extremely WP:POINTy nomination. Leak of user:Jokestress' well-documented off-wiki campaign. I recommend she join me in banning ourselves from that page, with user page pledges, to prevent further disruption. Moreover, the claims that editor makes about my believes are false, indeed they are BLP violations, that I request she redact. — James Cantor (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. This article is cut and pasted from Transfan. Terms like these are scientifically reifying and pathologizing, per Rosario and many others. Article creator has classified it as a paraphilia, part of his long-running attempts to promote spurious paraphilias here and offsite. "Men sexually interested in transwomen" is the formal term used by legitimate researchers these days. This can be and is all covered at Attraction to transgender people]. Jokestress (talk) 01:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• WP:IDONTLIKEIT does not supersede Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#Naming_conventions: "The article title should be the scientific or recognised medical name that is most commonly used in recent, high-quality, English-language medical sources, rather than a lay term (unscientific or slang name)". And keep redacting the unsubstantiated BLP claims. This is my second request that you do so completely.— James Cantor (talk) 02:47, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Merge Transfan into Gynandromorphophilia. Following up on the above MoS/Med policy to use the technical rather than slang terms (this being an encyclopedia, and all), the professional peer reviewed RS's also use gynandromorphophilia. revealed 14 citations, but got zero. Although there are individual authors publishing books expressing their personal views about what the politically correct term should be, the highest regarded RS's use gynandromorphophilia. Slang terms for gynandromorphophilia (and a note about their inappropriateness) would be an important subsection to include.— James Cantor (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment This is yet another attempt by this editor to medicalize a common form of attraction with an obscure term used by an activist minority in the mental health field, a little pocket of pathological science fixated on the concept of paraphilia. We use value-neutral, non-pathologizing terms here, not obscure neologisms that cast a common sexual interest/orientation as a mental illness or medical condition or disease. This doesn't fall under MoS/Med because medicalizing this phenomenon is POV-pushing. This is discussed much more commonly as a sociological phenomenon than a medical one, with the exception of a few holdouts clinging to 20th century ideologies. There are many books and articles discussing this for every one that uses the quaint medicalized/reified terminology proposed as this article title. All can be covered under attraction to transgender people if we need a more generalized title for a move for Transfan. Jokestress (talk) 09:12, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Redirect to Attraction to transgender people as a duplicate article. Attraction to transgender people is longer and better-maintained. This is a rarely-used word, and WP policy in most areas is to use a commonly used or descriptive term. It's dubious whether the policy on medical naming applies, as this is not primarily a medical condition and is also part of social sciences e.g. psychology, sociology, gender studies. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. "Attraction to transgender people" is a neologism on a page that was created two hours ago. The phrase does not appear in a single one of the sources provided on that page. (Indeed, the sources on that page use the medical terminology.) A google search reveals no RS's with that phrase. Article length is irrelevant; the information there is poorly sourced and nonsourced. Any usable content there should be merged into the repeatedly RS-recognized term.— James Cantor (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. This article should be about the phenomenon, not the many technical and non-technical terms which describe some aspects of it. We don't need a separate article for each term. We can cover all the bizarre suggestions made in academia over the years in one section in attraction to transgender people. Jokestress (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Comment. Jokestress says there are "many technical" terms; however, the RS's contain two technical terms. Whom to believe, whom to believe...? I agree that not every non-technical slang term proposed to every activist member of whatever group needs a page. "Attraction to transgender people" is exactly such a non-technical slang expression, included in not a single RS, neologized just today by exactly such an activist. None of this supercedes a medical article using medical terms to describe a medical phenomenon published in multiple medical RS's according to the MoS for medical articles.— James Cantor (talk) 18:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Comment. Attraction to transgender people lists five technical terms used in reliable sources already:

• gynandromorphophilia
• gynemimetophilia
• Andromimetophilia / androminetophilia
• Men sexually interested in transwomen (MSTW)

There's also terms like "Men who have sex with transgender women" and "sexually attracted to transgender individuals." All these many terms for similar phenomena should be covered in one article. There's not enough on any one specific term to merit a standalone. We've had this phenomenon vs. term discussion many times before. An activist minority in the mental health field does not dictate what this phenomenon is called, and the convoluted terms used by a couple of "experts" have never caught on. I believe most people who identify as having this interest use the term admirer. All this can be covered at the main article. Jokestress (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. You're losing track of your own kitchen sinking. This page is about "gyndandromorphophilia", which has only a single synonym ("gynemimetophilia"). That you on your own created broader pages with vaguer (and entirely non-RS'ed) terms is neither here nor there for this page. In fact, it argues for this focussed, highly sourced page to which your and other neologisms should be redirected. As I said before, I believe WP would be better of if you and I swore off this page. WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:HOUND, and WP:POINT all apply.— James Cantor (talk) 19:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I've notified Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Medicine of this deletion discussion. I suggest that other related WikiProjects also be notified. 108.60.139.170 (talk) 22:40, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Behavioural science-related deletion discussions. LadyofShalott 23:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Redirect to Attraction to transgender people as a duplicate article. Attraction to transgender people is a general phenomenon which is NOT addressed solely within the definitions promoted by some sexologists, who constitute a minority among those who publish WP:RS on these phenomena. - thanks, bonze blayk (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Got RS's for any of that? Political Correctness is what it is, but that does not mean that one can just take a sexual concept, add "and affectional" (which not a single RS contains), create a new phrase (which not a single RS contains and which is suddenly missing any reference to sex) and claim the original, sexual RS's still to be supporting the new name/definition. These changes are merely to hide/dilute that pesky, unpopular sex stuff, which many alternative communities are afraid might make them look bad. (Personally, I think the sexual aspects of sexual minorities should be embraced and celebrated, not bowdlerized from WP.)— James Cantor (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. "I love the smell of reductionism in the evening…" re: WP:RS… how about "Blossom of Bone"? It addresses the history of "spirituality" expressed by "homosexual and gender variant men", but IMO somewhat suppresses the whole hard core sex (as well as transsexualism, and transfan "services") aspect of the pagan religious devotions it discusses? And for another example, here's Julia Serano raving about the strong attraction she feels for trans women in her "Love Rant" - well, because we're such damned awesome human beings?

While some male "admirers" of trans women tend to fetishize us for our femininity or our imagined sexual submissiveness, I find trans women hot because we are anything but docile or demure.…

At this point in our conversation, my friend tried to play what he probably thought was his trump card. He asked me, "Well, what if you found out that the trans woman you were attracted to still had a penis?"

I laughed and replied that I am attracted to people, not disembodied body parts.

— Julia Serano, ''Whipping Girl, p. 278-9

I expect you to respond that neither of these is a valid WP:RS here - according to WP:MEDRS. That's precisely the point - see WP:NOTDIC: Misplaced Pages is neither a medical dictionary nor a specialized medical encyclopedia, and moreover these "sexual preferences", though also investigated by sexologists, are typically expressed in conjunction with certain social and cultural practices which are a subject of study by scholars in other fields, as well as individual experiences published in WP:RS outside of the cultic arena of "academic sexology", and are not "all about sex as it is understood by professional sexologists". If you focus only on the work of sexologists here, redirecting "slang" (i.e., the common English usage) such as "transfan" here, this article is (and will remain) 1) profoundly misleading and 2) a stub.

Finally: I see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#Naming conventions invoked above by James Cantor to support "gynandromorphophilia" as the only appropriate title - and focus of attention - for an article on this topic. Exactly what disease, disorder, or syndrome is supposed to exist here? I believe it's the case that the term "gynandromorphophilia" does not in itself imply the presence of a psychological disorder - "paraphilias" in the DSM-V will not be automatically associated with psychopathology - so how is this supposed to come under the rubric of "Medicine-related articles"? Medicine - "Medicine is the applied science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease." Where's the disease?

And um, James (if I may be familiar), it's not hard to figure out that I don't do "PC". At all. "Hi, I'm bonze anne blayk - and I'm the fa'afafine of the group!" - retrospective lols - thanks, bonze blayk (talk) 00:22, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Well, at least you are making it clear for the closing admin that refusals here are about personal ideologies and not the actual RS's...and that the comments are being made already knowing they are counter to what the policies say...— James Cantor (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. (Please see James Cantors' original comment before he edited it to make it "more to the point"… rather than being another rather blatant example of the "insult art" and cheap debating tactics he tends to practice as an editor here, contrary to WP:AGF and WP:NPA. This was my response to the original comment, which remains pertinent even though his comment has been "cleaned up" in his self-edit - which was made just before I attempted to post this response.)

That's a charming one-liner, User:James Cantor, but "you have validated my point" is merely an assertion, and a weak debating tactic, not a solid counter-argument. As I stated above: you're going to deny that WP:RS sources are WP:RS sources, hoping that other editors will ignore the distinctions between WP:RS and WP:MEDRS.

Again I ask: How does an article which is not about a "disease" fall under the rubric of "Medicine-related articles", where the higher standards of WP:MEDRS rightly apply?

And I ask: is "gynandromorphophilia" a disease? Or not?

This is not an "ideological" question. It's a medical question. - bonze blayk (talk) 02:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

1. www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/health/psychology/21gender.html

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