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Jöran Jermas?

The source sited does not seem to refer to Jöran Jermas. Also is that a pen name or what is it? I think that needs explanation. As he seems to have formally changed his name to Israel Adam Shamir the article should reflect that. Geo8rge (talk) 19:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

He seems to have changed his name first to Israel Shamir, then to Joran Jermas, and finally to Adam Ermash. Because of various concerns, many references have been removed from this article; I will try to find the relevant sources. RolandR (talk) 20:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

BLP disaster

This a WP:BLP disaster, amounting to little more than OMG! He's a Holocaust denier!!! over and over. Except that the only actual quote from Shamir clearly contradicts that. The reader is entitled to an honest and reasonably complete biography, not a glorified blog seemingly written by a virulent opponent of the subject. I'll do what I can to add some nonOMG content and clean it up a bit. Rd232 22:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

We've been through this before here, not too long ago. Please do not make the mistake of saying that only those who say "there was no Holocaust" are Holocaust deniers. That's not just a mistake, it's a newbie mistake. Please inform yourself about the Holocaust denial movement first before you make that same mistake. Goodwinsands (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you should read the article you link to (Holocaust denial), and reacquaint yourself with the word "denial". Redefining words like the Cheshire Cat is just going to produce a meaningless Newspeak.

Anyway, I came back to the talk page to post this link , which includes a quote from Norman Finkelstein, "He has invented his entire personal history. Nothing he says about himself is true." Not sure what, if anything, to do with that. Rd232 23:31, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

PS this seems quite a good summary of who Shamir is and what he's about; unfortunately it's just a blog. But the points made are a hell of lot more illuminating than arraying a bunch of sources saying "he's an anti-semite/holocaust denier". Rd232 23:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You've rather missed the point. I didn't redefine what "Holocaust denier" means, or what the Holocaust denial movement stands for. That's a part of the historical record already, and has been for a long time. You just naïvely assumed you knew what "Holocaust denial" meant based on taking the words at face value. It's a bit like assuming that crabapple means a kind of apple crabs eat, and condemning those who don't agree for "redefining words." Goodwinsands (talk) 23:49, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you should go rewrite the Holocaust denial article then. Rd232 23:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Last time I checked, it was a pretty good entry. One of the better entries in WP, in fact. And it pointed out that "Holocaust denial" was not a matter of saying "the Holocaust didn't happen." Ultimately, of course, it's not up to either your nor I to decide whether Shamir is a Holocaust denier (although he is). Instead, it's up to us to note that there are a significant number of WP:RS calling him that, and then make sure the entry reflects that. Goodwinsands (talk) 00:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't know about the past, but right now the Holocaust denial article describes exactly the phenomenon you would expect: denial of the historicity of the Holocaust (that is, denial of the agreed key facts of the events of the Holocaust). And whilst you may be happy with various sources describing Shamir as subscribing to that, and leave it at that, I can't help finding it disconcerting that no direct quote supporting that is available, whilst the only relevant quote given directly contradicts it. Rejecting the use to which the Holocaust has been put (according to some) is very different from rejecting the historicity of the Holocaust. We might distinguish, if you will, between Holocaust denial and Holocaust "rejection". Now I don't want to pursue this much further (I certainly don't want to remove the claims from the article - although they really could be reduced and contextualised within Shamir's wider views, as per the blog lnk I gave here), and it would help me with that if you'd acknowledge the problem. Rd232 01:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I've removed a source () which is an opinion column clearly basing its view () in substantial part on a misquotation of Shamir ("The camp was an internment facility, attended by the Red Cross (as opposed to the US internment centre in Guantanamo).), as easily verifiable from the original. Rd232 01:46, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I've removed Category:Holocaust deniers. I've looked in the sources here, and on the internet, and found no evidence to support its accuracy, and only vague accusations or demonstrable misquotations. Shamir, like Gilad Atzmon and Norman Finkelstein, is concerned with the role of The Holocaust as narrative and political tool, and seems to not care about the history either way. The recent description by the (Jewish magazine) Tablet Magazine following extended interview (added to the article), together with Shamir's own rejection and zero direct evidence, amount to a WP:BLP requirement to remove this category, even in the face of some sources in the article making this (unevidenced) accusation. The accusations are reliably sourced, yes; the fact of denial is not, and the most recent good source (the Tablet) seems bang on the nose. PS I don't really care whether he is or isn't; but key Misplaced Pages policies like WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:BLP have a tendency to go out of the window where those of extreme political opinions are concerned, the more so where those opinions touch on the Israel/Palestine topic area. Having blundered into this article and found this situation, I've felt tunable to ignore it. Rd232 01:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

moved from article:

Writing in The Moscow Times in late 2010, investigative journalist Yulia Latynina said that Shamir is "infamous for denying the Holocaust and writing about the conditions under which Jews are willing to sacrifice children"

Reason: per Shamir's response to her here, her central claim is false. (The article is about Shamir allegedly inventing a WikiLeaks cable, which had not yet been published, and Latynina concluded it did not exist.) That rather fatally undermines the credibility of the source - especially as the quoted description of Shamir is unlikely to be more than an aside in what Shamir calls "a short piece" (I don't have access to confirm). Rd232 23:03, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Note: the whole business about the French publication of Flowers of Galilee (withdrawn by one co-publisher, several court cases) really should be covered. See eg and the French Misplaced Pages page for Israel Shamir. Rd232 23:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

done. Rd232 15:56, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Archiving

I've just noticed that threads since July 2010 have been archived to Archive 1 rather than the sequentially appropriate Archive 3 and on. I've attempted to correct this by moving all the affected posts to Archive 4, and have tried to tell the bot to now begin archiving to Archive 5, but others might want to check out what I've done, since this is a new thing for me. --Slp1 (talk) 00:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Sourcing and lead description

This article now is sourced mainly to Shamir's own writings, often stating his claims in the encyclopedia's neutral voice.

"Shamir is best known for a range of political writing about Israel, Palestine, and the Jewish people"? No, he's best known for being a Holocaust denying Antisemite. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

"sourced mainly to Shamir's own writings" - not true. And his website is used for biographical information which is not disputed, or for quotes or responses. (See WP:SPS.) As to your other remark, well it beings to mind a remark I made at Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Israel_Shamir: "the primary concern with these sort of people seems to be in justifying a label, not explaining what they believe and why. It may be very satisfying for editors, but it's not much use to readers." Basically, WP:NPOV given the available sources requires particular care in the lead of a WP:BLP. I asked at BLPN about the lack of reliably sourced evidence that Shamir actually qualifies as a Holocaust denialist. Feel free to provide that, and/or clarify the nature of his views and/or why people think they're antisemitic. Labelling is not helpful for readers, and we're not writing an encyclopedia for the satisfaction of editors. PS I've changed the section title to a neutral description, because your original was dangerously close to a personal attack, since the recent changes were done by one person (me) and you were effectively questioning the motivation for the changes (WP:AGF). Rd232 19:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

We have at least three high quality reliable sources that say he's a Holocaust denying antisemite, or is widely considered as such. It's not up to us to determine if he "qualifies" or not. We report what reliable sources say.

The whole "Career" section, written in the encyclopedia's neutral voice is sourced to Shamir. So is most of the lead. And most of the "Background and personal life". Basically a good chunk of this article is the encyclopedia parroting what Shamir says about himself. In other words, a whitewash. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:SPS, a BLP subject is a reliable source for biographical material unless shown otherwise; if you have sources that contradict him, provide them. Before adding these sections, the article was at or near meeting the criteria for WP:CSD#G10. As to the claims: the only one that's really quality is the Guardian, and they (specifically, Leigh, a co-author of that story) have an axe to grind with their ex-partners Wikileaks, and the story is clearly attacking Wikileaks with claims for which (on this issue) they provide no evidence. It remains true that the accusation is an extremely contentious one, one the subject rejects, and which ought not to be difficult to prove. We're not in the realm of thought crime here; he can be considered a denier only if he said something to that effect. When, where? For such a contentious claim, rejected by the subject, it is not too much to ask. Rd232 22:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Once again I ask editors to become familiar with what Holocaust denial actually is before making ill-informed decisions about who is or isn't one. To demand that someone must say "No, there was no Holocaust at all" before being considered a Holocaust denier is to give a free pass to David Irving, Ernst Zündel, Paul Rassinier, Robert Faurisson, and every other key leader of the Holocaust denial movement who says, "Yes, the Nazis killed some Jews here and there but then the Jews made up all this stuff about Hitler's big genocidal plan, and gas chambers, and such." When I have a little time I will reinstate material that has been removed erroneously. Goodwinsands (talk) 16:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

"Yes, the Nazis killed some Jews here and there but then the Jews made up all this stuff about Hitler's big genocidal plan, and gas chambers, and such." - you keep making the same point over and over, but you have to face the fact that Shamir has not been cited saying anything like that. He appears to sympathise with that view (hosting related material) and associate with people who express it, but unless you can show that he's expressed that view, you can't legitimately claim it is a fact that he holds it. And I must emphasise the role of the recent Tablet Magazine (a Jewish magazine, not to be confused with The Tablet) sources (see article) in making me decide to remove the category. Rd232 01:50, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Even if something is a reliable source for BLPs, that doesn't mean we should repeat it in the encyclopedia's neutral voice. Shamir claims all sorts of things about himself which the article should note are his claims unless other corroboration is found. This should include all the media outlets he claims to have worked in, his service in the IDF, and his academic career. All are self-serving statements which should not be repeated in the neutral voice. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:35, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, per WP:SPS, autobiographical material is normally accepted as verification of standard bio material. Show why this is an exception. Remember too that it's all appropriately footnoted; people can see on what sources the claims rest. Rd232 01:50, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, it's not supposed to be in the encyclopedia's neutral voice.

SPS says the article should not be primarily based on such sources. Currently over half the footnotes in this article refer to Shamir's writings.

SPS also says that claims that are "unduly" self-serving or involve third parties should not be included. The list of well known and respected media outlets he allegedly worked for fit both those criteria, considering they're sourced only to Shamir. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

this source, via Google Translate confirms most of the details (plus providing others), but it's in Hebrew, using an automated translation is clearly bad. Rd232 00:22, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

It's also from Shamir's site, which is also clearly bad.

Can I assume you're not going to fix the fact that claims Shamir makes are stated in the encyclopedia's neutral voice? I didn't want to get in the middle of your multiple edits, but if you're done or are not going to fix it, I'll fix it myself. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:51, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

No, it's from Maariv - the copy linked to is merely posted on his website. (He also has an angry response to the article on his website.) I see no reason to change the text in the way you suggest; try WP:NPOVN (constantly saying "according to Shamir" when it's explicitly footnoted anyway evinces scepticism as to reliability) or WP:RSN. Rd232 15:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Weasel words

Each point in the "Background and personal life" section seems to be prefaced with weasel words. I can't see that an unsubstantiated quote from a single source is sufficient cause to do this. Reading over the Tablet article, other than quoting it, it doesn't appear to attempt to address Finkelstein's claim that Shamir's background is a fiction. Perhaps other better sources exist that explicitly cast doubt on his background? --92.2.82.159 (talk) 19:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

corrected attribution

"He says he was born Izrail Schmerler" - It is wrongly attributed to Shamir. It was written by Lundgren, so it should refer to him. I could not find Shamir saying that he had this name. And I think we should record who is the hero that spoiled Shamir's attempt to escape justice. Roland Rance deserves to be mentioned and hailed. Kingfisher12 (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

1. Latynina, Yulia (8 December 2010). "KremlinLeaks". The Moscow Times. Retrieved 15 December 2010.

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