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A news item involving Anders Behring Breivik was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 24 August 2012.

[REDACTED]

This article was nominated for deletion on 2011-07-23. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Please note that the Anders Behring Breivik "manifesto" (2083 - A European Declaration of Independence) is considered a primary source, and its use must adhere to the relevant Misplaced Pages policy. Avoid adding content that engages in analyzing, synthesizing, interpreting, or evaluating the manifesto. Any interpretation of the manifesto must be based on a reliable secondary source.

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Can someone with editing privileges revert the statement "Norwegian nationalism" to "white nationalism" in the introduction section? I don't know who changed it, or why that person has editing privileges and I don't, but we discussed this at length earlier. Furthermore, of the many alternative titles to the sentiments we were trying to capture with the label "white nationalist," Norwegian nationalist makes the least amount of sense, and stinks somewhat of sympathizing euphemism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chainswede (talk • contribs) 14:55, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Given that the source cited clearly says 'Hvit nasjonalist'(White nationalist), I've changed it back. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

"Norwegian nationalist" makes perfect sense seeing as how he is an advocate of Norway as a state for ethnic Norwegians, not "white" people. There is a difference between "white" and "Norwegian" and Breivik clearly is concerned more with the latter. Perhaps you think that labeling him a "Norwegian nationalist" is a sympathetic euphemism, but I think labeling him a "white nationalist" is just an attempt to roll him into the the "white supremacist", "Neo-Nazi" category with all of its associations. Perhaps you don't realize that "nation" actually means a people, or ethnic group. --ElkanahTingley (talk) 12:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I have reviewed the source for "white nationalist" and come to the conclusion that it is a sub-standard source without corroboration. In fact, we have a contradiction for this label elsewhere in the article. I have therefore removed the label and also other text referenced from the same source, a U.S. PhD student. __meco (talk) 21:33, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad that "white nationalism" was removed, but I have my doubts about the use of "ultranationalism" as well. I don't think that had been there before. First, later on in the article we have Thomas Hegghammer saying that he's not an "ultranationalist." Additionally, I can't find the term being used in the Washington Post article source. The "ultranationalism" link sends you to the paragraph definition, most of which sounds nothing like what Breivik believed in. Authoritarianism, demagoguery of leadership, tight control over business, genocide do not fit the bill for Breivik. That sounds a lot like fascism and National Socialism, both of which Breivik was vehemently opposed to. The only overlap is reduction or stoppage of immigration and deportation of foreigners. Broadly speaking, "ethnic nationalism" is a much better fit. "Norwegian nationalism" is more specific. I think the reluctance to label him a "Norwegian nationalist" is due to a confusion between "civic nationalism" and "ethnic nationalism." True "nations" are ethnic groups and the original meaning of "nationalism" was "ethnic nationalism." I think people are reluctant to say he's a "Norwegian nationalist" because they think it strips the focus away from the fact that he was concerned with ethnicity and culture, and not simply "the state" of Norway. "Norwegian ethno-nationalist"? It's actually redundant. --ElkanahTingley (talk) 22:07, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Now, I read the Washington Post article from July 25, 2011 which was used to support the labels ultranationalism, right-wing populism and islamophobia. I couldn't find it mentioning any of the three. I wonder what is behind that. Perhaps sources have become mixed up in the editing process. In any case, I removed the first two but left islamophobia since that seems well established and uncontroversial, and I also removed the source from the article altogether since it was only used to reference information which it actually didn't mention. __meco (talk) 08:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

@ElkanahTingley. Actually, "ethno-nationalist" wouldn't be redundant since the latin word "natio" can refer both to the greek "demos" as well as the greek "ethnos". In modern Europe, first Nationalists were Democrats (not neccessarily Republicans, and don't mix these terms up with the U.S.-parties) who refused imperial rule as well as Kleinstaaterei and proclaimed a (then often non existing) independent and unified nation state. It was later, when these nation states already had been established, when nationalist beliefs began to shift towards ethnically "clean" and homogeneous states. However, according to most of his writings, Breivik doesn't interest himself so much for the "purity of blood" (or does he? - I haven't read them all) but more for some kind of "purity of a monolithic christian culture". True? So maybe the right expression for that kinda standpoint still has to be found.--JakobvS (talk) 09:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Why was "white nationalist" removed? We had a long discussion about this earlier, and those opposed to it were not able to defend their position. Breivik envisions farms to preserve and protect blue eyed, blond-haired people, and he listened to and celebrated extensively white separatist music. Don't tell me that this is in any way implied in the term nationalist, ElkanahTingley (and did you follow the trial at all, BTW--because this was brought up). The previous source, which for some reason Meco deleted in both places, was deemed sufficient after a long discussion last year (especially in the manifesto section). Can someone with editing privileges put it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.1.75 (talk) 14:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The lead

The lead is too long. It also gives the killer far too much of the kind of coverage he craved - almost bordering on a bizarre kind of justification. Those who have worked so much on this article might consider reducing some of it a little. Breivik was, after all, just another mass-murdering crank intent on getting his name in the media. BarbarellaTwo (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed! The lead needs to be stripped down and yes, Anders is, just what you described.

"....We are all Kosh...."  <-Babylon-5-> 15:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

In fact, 4 paragraphs is the recommended length per MOS, so the lead is geneally not too long. However, I've removed two sentences of hypothetical nature regarding what could happen if he were judged to be insane, as it seems unncessary to have this in the lead now. JonFlaune (talk) 20:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The lead is full of pov wording! "Terrorist" is a pov term and should not be used in Misplaced Pages articles. "Far right" is a pov term that should also not be used (and the meanings of "far right" or "far left" vary greatly from country to country). "Militant ideology" is also pov. Brevik’s manifesto was not "Islamophobia, support of Zionism and opposition to feminism" – that is just the opinion of certain commentators who have characterised its content thus. "Attrocities" is also pov. Meowy 16:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

We base articles on what reliable sources say, not on your POV of what is POV. And if you think that the mass murder of 69 people - mostly teenagers - wasn't 'an atrocity', I suggest you take your deranged POV somewhere else - preferably where nobody has to see it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

And the above shows why the lead is so pov-filled - like many current event articles on Misplaced Pages it has become "owned" by a group of editors who are pumped-up with self-righteous indignation about the event. It is also my experience that said editors never have any actual connection to the subject, or any history of editing in the subject's general area before the specific current event enters the news. Meowy 19:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

"Self righteous?" Breivik MURDERED dozens of children. Any real human being with a soul would consider that an atrocity. Just leave, sicko, we don't need your trolling here. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

You are heading rapidly towards a situation that merits a lengthy block for incivility. I suggest that you shut your mouth if this is all you can say. Meowy 19:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)We base things on sources. Start writing for a newspaper, then get them to call him 'Steve' or a 'freedom fighter' or whatever you want him to be called, then when that is picked up by other RSs perhaps we will call him a 'Steve' or a 'freedom fighter'. Until then he remains what he is, a far right militant terrorist. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I have removed "terrorist" from the intro section. My justification is the Misplaced Pages guideline at Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. Meowy 19:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict):You are a POV-pusher trying to remove the sourced information describing the evil that Breivik has committed, and seem to want to excuse his actions. I'm willing to call you on your bluff, I won't shut up.

And did you miss the part saying "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject"...? It's not contentious that Breivik was a terrorist. Take your Breivik-excusing and get out of here. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

"in which case use in-text attribution" Did you miss this part? it seems correct here. take YOUR excusing of Anti-semitic boycott that was going on on the island http://1389blog.com/pix/Boycott-Israel.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.225.103.82 (talk) 11:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Ridiculous mention of Breivik's support of Zionism.

Breivik's own manifesto clearly indicates that his primary grievance was multiculturalism, and therefore he sympathises with and supports nationalism and nation-states in many of their manifestations. The singling out of his support of Zionism, while ignoring all other nationalisms, while ignoring the fact that this was simply a facet of his broader support for nation-states grounded in his opposition to multiculturalism is done with specific intent to attach a despicable man to Zionism, Israel, and the Jewish people. Moreover, it is also an attempt to associate Zionism with terrorism, mass murder, and other horrible acts. Just because the Jerusalem Post mentions his support for Zionism DOES NOT mean that this support was central to his core ideological leanings or political philosophy, and by extension to his motivations for carrying out a mass murder. The mention of Zionism should ONLY be mentioned in the context of his broader support for nationalism and nation-states, and should certainly NOT be in the introductory paragraph listen as a central focus of his ideological leanings/political philosophy/motivations. Bobinisrael (talk) 06:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• We are not singling out Zionism; Breivik did. There's no reason to remove or downplay this information just because of your concerns of guilt by association. (After all, even Hitler believed that two plus two equals four.) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 12:27, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Except Breivik didn't single out Zionism, he talked about his support for nationalism in a general sense while opposing multiculturalism. I've clearly stated this fact in my initial contribution, which you've unsurprisingly COMPLETELY ignored. His writings about Zionism and Israel dealt primarily with the unique experience they've had with Islam/Islamism/Islamic terrorism/Muslims, which he thought provided important lessons to Europe to combat what he viewed as a gradual and softer Islamic conquest via contemporary immigration and multiculturalism policies. The article is dishonestly singling out Zionism for transparent reasons, and you're sticking up for it. Predictably, the actual manifesto itself IS NOT sourced. God forbid one should actually go to the widely available primary source that laid out this man's ideology, political philosophy, and motivations for mass murder. Even the video he compiled is not linked in the article. Bobinisrael (talk) 16:07, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Exactly: Breivik's support of Zionism is connected to his opposition to Islam, and the Misplaced Pages article correctly links the two. Indeed, commentators have referred to this. (Misplaced Pages articles are generally sourced to secondary sources; drawing conclusions from a primary source would constitute original research or synthesis which is outside the scope of Misplaced Pages.) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 16:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
      • No, this is misleading, the editors of the article are clearly trying to characterise Zionism as an anti-Islamic ideology, which is of course nonsensical. I don't understand how actually drawing on clear statements that Breivik made in his own manifesto and video (which are predictably not linked in this article) in English constitutes "original research". Breivik also made no mention of Zionism in his 12-minute video, but the reader is dishonestly propagandised to believe that support for Zionism (and not nationalism in a broader sense) was a primary driver of his actions, and a fundamental component of his ideology/political philosophy. This is done by design for transparently anti-Zionist reasons. You're still ignoring the basic fact that Breivik did not single out Zionism, contrary to your earlier dishonest statement. Looks like I'm going to have to edit this article...Bobinisrael (talk) 17:06, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
        • As the note at the top of this page makes clear, we do not source material for this article from Breivik's 'manifesto' - any content you add sourced from there will be deleted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• That's not what the note at the top of the page says. Content can be sourced from the manifesto and/or video in the appropriate context. Thank you for revealing your commitment to the dishonest narrative of this article by trying to prevent me from engaging in a constructive edit. Bobinisrael (talk) 17:19, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The Misplaced Pages article does not imply that Zionism is anti-Muslim; please don't accuse the editors of ulterior motives. You have said, and I have agreed, that Breivik supported Zionism precisely because he opposes Islam. That's why the two are linked in the lead. As for your suggestion of using Breivik's manifesto (which is indeed linked to in the references, though just as a source about itself): Please read the policy against original research. Primary sources should be only used for simple facts; drawing conclusions from them should be left to secondary sources, which can be used as references. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 17:21, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
    • That is NOT what I said, his support for Zionism was grounded in his broader support for nationalism, and the opposite of contemporary multiculturalism policies. His talk of Zionism was primarily with respect to its greater experience with Islam and and what Breivik describes as Islamic conquest/imperialism. He refers to Zionism specifically as a cautionary tale for Europe to learn from with respect to its currently changing demographics, specifically with respect to the growing proportion of its population that self-identify as Muslims.
  • Exactly. "Any interpretation of the manifesto must be based on a reliable secondary source". Bobinisrael appears to be proposing to edit the article according to his interpretation of the source - which is against WP:OR policy, and will be deleted. And lay off the ridiculous accusations of 'dishonesty', unless you wish to be blocked from editing entirely. We comment on Breivik's support for Zionism in the article because multiple commentators have done the same - including Ben Hartman of the Jerusalem Post - was Hartman's statement that Breivik supports "far-right Zionism" an attempt to discredit Israel? Obviously not. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:32, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
    • This argument amounts to, "I can't be anti-Semitic because I have a Jewish friend". A stupidly written article at the Jerusalem Post hardly supports the dishonest narrative being put forward here that describes Zionism as one of Breivik's primary ideological motivators. More importantly, the article is being used as support for a point in a dishonest context, for reasons I've already explained. If the assertion of Zionism being central to Breivik's ideology was true (and it most certainly IS NOT true), then why not add a hyperlink at the bottom of the page to connect this article to "Zionist terrorism"? Bobinisrael (talk) 23:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
    • While you claim that I appear to be proposing an edit based on "original research", you on the other hand blatantly misrepresented a Misplaced Pages policy in stating that any reference to primary sources (either Breivik's manifesto or the 12-minute video he composed) made by me will be instantly deleted, without exception. Your own words were, "any content you add sourced from there will be deleted". That is NOT what the Misplaced Pages policy referenced in the note at the top of the page entails. So much for good faith.Bobinisrael (talk) 23:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

I would point out that the accusation of dishonesty was not made against any person. Bob is a new editor who I believe is reacting as can be expected from multiple severe WP:BITE violations by established editors who should know better. —Cupco 22:30, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Please take your BS elsewhere. Anyone who's first post includes a statement that "The singling out of his support of Zionism, while ignoring all other nationalisms, while ignoring the fact that this was simply a facet of his broader support for nation-states grounded in his opposition to multiculturalism is done with specific intent to attach a despicable man to Zionism, Israel, and the Jewish people" deserves to be told that such comments aren't acceptable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:36, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

That statement similarly was not against any specific editor. If there is some reason that critics are prohibited from speculating on the intent of editors in general, please state it. —Cupco 22:40, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

How about WP:AGF? Meanwhile, can I suggest that unless you have any proposals regarding the content of this article, you find something more useful to do. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:56, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Dead links

I think that I have rectified all of the Dead links in this article, as well as the sole Citation message.--Soulparadox (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Fremskrittspartet

It´s wrong to refer to Fremskrittspartiet simply as a anti-immigration party. When the party was started in 1973 immigration wasn´t even an issue. Economic liberalism has always been part of the party´s platform. The party´s youth fraction has published comments made by Breivik on their discussion board at the time he was member, and those comments shows he was interested in other issues than just immigration, particularly economic policy. He was a wannabe businessman at the time. Iselilja (talk) 07:58, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Girlfriends?

I can see no mention of girlfriends in this article. Did Anders not have any girlfriend(s)? If not, why not? CJRMcLaughlin (talk) 19:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Would this meet the Notability criteria for Misplaced Pages? I cannot see why it is so important.--Soulparadox (talk) 19:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Breivik was in a relationship with a Belarusian woman from 2005 to 2006, and they lived a while together in Oslo. Generally we avoid too much mention over "gossip" items such as relationships, but I wouldn't categorically say this isn't relevant, because one of the witnesses in court said that Brevik became far more isolated after that relationship ended. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Think Tank

The article cites Pepe Egger from Exclusive Analysis and references the company as a think tank. This appears incorrect. A think tank advocates policy, economic or military issues (http://en.wikipedia.org/Think_tank), but on the Exclusive Analysis website, the company states that it does not do policy advocacy. http://www.exclusive-analysis.com/aboutus.html Can someone with editing capability please take out the 'think tank' reference? Maybe replace with 'Political Risk firm'PizzathePengiun (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Why no photo?

Being ashamed to show a European white man doing such a thing? It is racism not show his face but to hide his face. --91.6.83.30 (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

If you take the time to go through the archives, you'll find that it is due to a lack of a photo with an acceptable license. WegianWarrior (talk) 11:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's "fair use" rules are much stricter than the law requires. That's why so many BLP's have no photos. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

And accusations of racism without evidence are insulting. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

And stupid... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

There are a gazillion links in the article. Surely at least some of them will have this guy's mug in them. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Lots of them will - the problem is finding one with an acceptable licence. If you can find one, do so... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Nah, I'm just saying that if someone wants to see what that guy looks like, they can check the various external links. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

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