Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:43, 4 February 2013

• WP:AN
• WP:ANB

• For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
• To request review of an administrator's action or other use of advanced permissions, use Misplaced Pages:Administrative action review
• If you are new, try the Teahouse instead.
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead, follow the instructions on Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight.
• For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent.
• Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here.
• Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• If you want to challenge the closure of a request for comment, use {{RfC closure review}}

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search)

Template:Active editnotice

This page has an administrative backlog that requires the attention of willing administrators. Please replace this notice with {{no admin backlog}} when the backlog is cleared.

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Misplaced Pages:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Archives

Index no archives yet (create)

This page has archives. Sections older than 2 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 4 sections are present.

• WP:CR
• WP:RFCL
• WP:ANRFC

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old
• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers/Log
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 39 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 106 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 85 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 76 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia#RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

(Initiated 75 days ago on 8 November 2024), RFC expired weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Catholic Church#RfC: Establishing an independent Catholicism article

(Initiated 26 days ago on 26 December 2024) Requesting closure from uninvolved impartial third party to close a discussion that has not seen a novel argument for a bit. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 18#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 33 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 33 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Redundant WPANIMATION categories

(Initiated 15 days ago on 6 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 13#Redundant WP:COMICS categories

(Initiated 9 days ago on 13 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 08:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Timrollpickering. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  14:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 9#Category:Molossia Wikipedians

(Initiated 13 days ago on 9 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 22:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 10#WP:DISNEY categories

(Initiated 12 days ago on 10 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 22:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Free and open-source software#Proposed merge of Open-source software and Free software into Free and open-source software

(Initiated 249 days ago on 17 May 2024) Would an uninvolved experienced editor please assess the consensus at Talk:Free and open-source software § Proposed merge of Open-source software and Free software into Free and open-source software? Thank you. — Newslinger talk 01:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 119 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 85 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 25 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Selected Ambient Works Volume II#Proposed merge of Stone in Focus into Selected Ambient Works Volume II

(Initiated 15 days ago on 6 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; proposal is blocking GA closure czar 11:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to supersede consensus #50

(Initiated 11 days ago on 10 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its degenerated into silly sniping and has clearly run its course. Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Yup, the discussion does need to be closed. GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Xiaohongshu#Requested move 14 January 2025

(Initiated 7 days ago on 14 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its been more than 7 days and there appears to be a consensus. There haven't been new opinions for almost three days now. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 22:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

PC2 for Mangoeater targets

AfD question

If an AfD gets no comments, should it be relisted or treated as an uncontested prod? nableezy - 01:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Current consensus is that it should not be treated as an uncontested prod (except for certain exceptions); it should be relisted a limited number of times and after relisting, if no participants join the discussion, eventually treated as no consensus, defaulting to keep. 28bytes (talk) 02:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you explain that a bit? I dont see how it is functionally different. nableezy - 02:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Occasionally I see a proposal on a noticeboard or village pump to treat no-participant AfDs as prods but as far as I can recall none of them have gotten very far. As Reyk notes below, the closer has discretion to do this per WP:NOQUORUM, but doing that by default is not something that's gained consensus as far as I'm aware. (I could of course have missed such a discussion; links welcome.) 28bytes (talk) 07:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that the only part that's really different is the relisting part. According to WP:NOQUORUM, when there are no participants admins are just as free to soft delete as they are to default to keep. This is essentially the same as PROD, where admins won't delete if they disagree with the PROD rationale. It's just that in AfD, admins will usually relist in the case of low participation, unless the debate has already been relisted twice or more. There's nothing in the guidelines to say that they can't use one of the other options instead of relisting, though. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It is functionally different, since an article which was kept can only be renominated if new circumstances have been discovered why this article is not suitable for Misplaced Pages, whereas if the article was left as no consensus it can be in principle renominated at a later time with the same arguments.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, but has that ever happened before? ZappaOMati 02:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Shahira Amin. nableezy - 02:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:NOQUORUM, they can be treated as an uncontested PROD, but the closing admin has a lot of discretion. Reyk _YO! 02:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
• Reyk has this correct. The closing admin has a lot of leeway here. That's why they get the big bucks. Hobit (talk) 04:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
• If there has not been a contested PROD before and the nomination brings forth a credible rationale for deletion, then I would tend to soft delete the article. If there was a previously contested PROD, I would relist once, and if that doesn't help, close as "no consensus" with NPASR. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 04:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

  I agree with this; it doesn't make sense to soft-delete something if a PROD has already been contested, so I would also tend to relist in these cases. Additionally, if there is already a contested PROD and the AfD has been relisted twice or more, I tend to leave a comment rather than close the debate or relist it again. I have been automatically relisting debates with no participants, but after this and the similar thread above, I think I will switch to soft deleting rather than relisting if the deletion hasn't previously been contested and I agree with the rationale. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• I can't ever recall an AfD going for three relists without any comment from anybody at all. I would say that if after a number of relists, then if there really is no comment, then the community is not interested about the article, so close as "no consensus" and leave it. When in doubt - don't delete! If that leaves an unsourced ten year old BLP on here, somebody will surely notice. Ritchie333 17:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The trouble with that position is that you do have a !vote for delete even in that case - the nominator's. So a "no consensus" is technically closing against consensus.- The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
    • A consensus of one? 28bytes (talk) 20:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Well, it's still one-nothing for delete! Obviously it would depend on the strength of the nomination of course - a WP:JNN nomination could easily go for no-consensus, while a well-argued "this is why" would be a firm deletion. (And UBLPs would always go in the round file.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
• My general rule of thumb is "relist twice then WP:SOFTDELETE". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Why delete? Shouldn't the default of an inconclusive discussion(s) be to keep? Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Because 1 person (the nominator) raised concerns about an article to which there were no objections. It's like a WP:PROD that runs the full 7 days; if no one speaks up, then off it goes. In either case, the decision can be overturned with no objection. Tarc (talk) 19:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
      • OK, I see the logic, thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
• HAve to agree on the general terms that an AFD that has received no commented outside the original nomination, including a relisting or two, should be treated as an uncontested PROD and deleted at the admin's discretion. If the AFD is a result of a contested CSD/PROD, I'd edge more towards no consensus given that the contest is an implicit reason to keep - not a great one, but enough of one if the nom is not a strong reason either. --MASEM (t) 19:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
• Please note that this question is also being discussed, in general terms and as it relates to relisting procedure, at Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion#RFC.--Arxiloxos (talk) 20:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for interaction ban-lift

About two months ago, I accepted a ban on interacting with User:Tristan noir. Tristan noir volunteered the same. I volunteered for this, because the user had been harassing/undermining me on numerous articles, and seemed to have no other purpose on Misplaced Pages (almost every edit the user made was to this end). I figured that if I just got him/her banned from following me around various articles, he/she would probably stop editing Misplaced Pages entirely, and then I could go about my normal practice of improving Misplaced Pages articles on (classical) Japanese literature. My assumption appeared to be correct, as once the ban was in place the user refrained from making any edits at all.

This worked until about two weeks ago, when I happened to edit an article that I wasn't aware the user had also edited two months before. The user almost immediately posted a message to the admin who had put the ban in place, and complained about my edit. My edit had nothing whatsoever to do with his/her previous edit, and I made no indication that I was attempting to undermine his/her edit. The user, though, appears to have been watching my edits (or at least that page, although that seems unlikely given his other claim of me breaching the ban) and waiting to get me blocked if I ever edited that page.

The admin sent me a warning and told me that, even though the original wording of the ban had been to refrain from editing articles that the other was "working on", this now applied even to edits made two months after the other party had made a minor edit to the article. I had been very clear when I initially took the ban (I stress voluntarily) that I did not expect to be treated like I had been banned for disruptive behaviour; the admin's applying harsher restrictions on me over a month later, when I had not in fact breached the original ban, therefore seems inappropriate. I understand that the admin may have misunderstood the situation of the article in question, and it is not his/her fault in the matter.

Apparently emboldened by the belief that I would be automatically banned from ever editing an article that he/she had touched, the user then became active on Misplaced Pages again, and set to work making mostly minor edits to numerous (13 and counting) articles on classical Japanese literature, which is my preferred field. The user had previously only ever edited such articles in order to insert references to otherwise non-notable modern American poets, and as far as I can remember those articles could be counted on one hand, but he/she suddenly became highly prolific when told that I was not allowed edit any article that he/she had ever touched. When I made some edits to a couple of those articles, the user immediately told on me again, and I was blocked for 24 hours. The admin also further emphasized the new strict restraints on my ban. While it might look like I followed the user to the latter set of articles (though not the first one, so the initial warning was essentially invalid), the fact is that my edits were all completely benign and did not mark an "interaction" with the user in question. They had no impact whatsoever on what he/she wrote, and in fact, one of those edits was primarily made to wikilink a relevant article I had just created, and I even took care to maintain his/her prose despite it not matching the article I had started.

I requested an unblock, given these circumstances, but my request was rejected by a second admin based on my having been in breach of a technicality in the interaction ban. The first admin did, however, recommend that I come here to request a lift of the ban.

So here I am.

I am not in any way interested in going back to "interacting" with Tristan noir. However, I need this interaction ban to be lifted (or at least lightened) so that I don't have to check every time I edit an article in my preferred field to see if he/she has edited it first, and don't have to fear getting blocked because of minor technicalities. My interaction ban was initially imposed because I asked for it, and I have since come to realize that it is having the opposite of the positive impact I expected. It is preventing me from fixing these and similar articles, and in fact allows Tristan noir much more freedom than it does me (I have no interest in going around "claiming" articles in his/her special field), despite the ban initially being proposed in order to restrain his/her activities. Most of Tristan noir's recent edits have been benign or somewhat positive. If he/she keeps up this kind of edit, I would be happy to edit the same articles as him/her in a peaceable manner; but under the current ban, I am immediately blocked every time I edit an article that Tristan noir has ever touched.

elvenscout742 (talk) 06:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Question: as far as I am aware, interaction bans normally do not prohibit the accidental and non-controversial editing of the same articles. Why was this one interpreted/enforced in this uncommonly strict way? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

That was my understanding as well, but apparently it was not Tristan noir's, so when he complained about my edit to Mokichi Saitō, Drmies told me off and reverted my edit, even though that edit had been both accidental and non-controversial. In reality I think it was more of a breach for him to be closely following my edits and to immediately complain when I did something he didn't like. But the technicalities of this ban means he is allowed do that and not get blocked, while I am not allowed to edit any of the above pages unless I want to get blocked. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

After looking through contributions, I note that with the exception of Uta monogatari and two related articles, Tristan hasn't been editing pages that look like Japanese poetry until very recently. Were that not the case, your argument would collapse, but it strongly buttresses your case. Meanwhile, you're editing in topics that I can see you were doing at least as far back as 2008. More interestingly, Tristan violated the ban by editing the Mokichi Saitō after you'd done it; complaining about an interaction ban violation and immediately proceeding to do the same thing is a good indicator of lack of good faith. His request to Drmies to sanction you is a good enough warning to himself; I've blocked him for 24 hours for violating his ban. Now: why would he be aware that you'd edited these pages if he weren't watching you? And why would he begin to edit in a completely new field so suddenly? The first question means that he's not leaving you alone, and the second means that you're right about him trying to block you. For this reason, I support unbanning you but leaving his ban in place. Nyttend (talk) 07:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Nytend's proposal, undo the topic ban on Elvenscout only, leaving the topic ban on Tristan in place. My analysis is the same, Tristan violated the ban, not Elvenscout. GregJackP Boomer! 12:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support removing Elvenscout's interaction ban and retaining Tristan's, per Nyttend's analysis (with which I concur). I would also recommend increasing Tristan's block to indef, for wikihounding and gaming the system. Yunshui 雲‍水 13:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Nyttends proposal. Pass a Method talk 14:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Nyttend's analysis, with the admonishment to elvenscout742 to continue staying away from initiating interaction with Tristan as he/she has been doing. Zad68 14:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I was not made aware until now of any violation by Tristan. If I had, I would have taken the exact same action I took against Elvenscout. You'll note that the terms of the ban included not editing the same articles (not the same field) because that was part of Elvenscout's original complaint (and it's still part of his complaint--the "undermining" references). Let me add something, if I may: that the ban was voluntary, certainly on Elvenscout's part, is immaterial for the terms of the ban, but shows Elvenscout's good will (which I never doubted), and I was and am more sympathetic to their side than to Tristan's, whose good faith back in November I wasn't completely sure of, but the way the cookie crumbled at ANI, for better or for worse, was the interaction ban with no further actions taken against Tristan. (I hope I am remembering all this correctly, and EdJohnston looked over the terms of the ban as well.) If, as it appears (haven't looked at the diffs yet), Tristan broke the terms too (whether they did it first or not is immaterial) then a block is justified, of course. If I missed, somehow or somewhere, that it was brought to my attention, I am very sorry for it.

  So, if the consensus here turns out to be that Tristan is in fact hounding Elvenscout (something which I did not disagree with at the ANI thread and in conversation with Elvenscout) and their behavior is disruptive enough for an indef block, possibly a ban de facto or de jure, I have no problem with that (or with a continued injunction for Tristan to stay away from Elvenscout, and not vice versa). And let me point out, speaking of crumbling cookies, that the ANI thread could already have ended with that had more editors/admins weighed in. As it was, Anthonyhcole agreed with Elvenscout's charge, but that isn't enough in an ANI discussion to lead to such a drastic solution; the proposed and agreed-upon interaction ban was reasonable given the discussion. We've already had more admin commentary here in less than a day than we had at the ANI discussion that ran for two weeks. I could give you my thoughts on why that went the way it did, but that's mustard after the meal, as the Dutch would say. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, it looks to me as if you were fed a rather disingenuous story by Tristan — you didn't know because he didn't tell you. Another sign of bad faith and gaming the system by Tristan, it seems to me: Elvenscout is giving the whole story (I investigated and found nothing substantial that was missing or misrepresented), but Tristan gave only the tiniest threads necessary to show that a ban was violated, with nothing about what he happened to be doing or why he happened to know about Elvenscout's actions. Nyttend (talk) 17:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't doubt it, Nyttend, and I wish that we had had more involvement in the ANI thread: Elvenscout had suggested to me some problems with Tristan's editing (which included a suspicion of involvement with a now-indef blocked editor--don't remember the name, but I'm sure Elvenscout does, and again I hope I'm remembering this correctly) after we got to work on Tanka in English. BTW, the situation on Mokichi Saitō is not so simple since Tristan was indeed the first of the two to edit it; it was Elvenscout revert of those edits that prompted my first warning. Drmies (talk) 18:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I have been avoiding further comment here to avoid jinxing it (this is the first really positive input I've had with a problem that has been bugging me since September, and I thank you all!), but I need to clarify something: My edit to Mokichi Saitō was not a "reversion" of TN's edit. I mostly just cleaned up the refs. This is why I complained when Drmies reverted my edit, although I understand that TN was probably the one who misled Drmies into believing my edit had been in bad faith (it wouldn't be the first time). My edit was not an "interaction" with TN. TN's more recent edits, however, were obviously made in direct response to mine. Therefore, it seems reasonable that their edits should be taken as at least as much of a violation as mine. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• One-way IBANs don't work. A broad TBAN for Tristan would be a better solution. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• No objection to that. Whatever's the best way to un-sanction a good contributor without permitting additional disruption from a problematic one. Nyttend (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Just for clarity's sake (if someone can do this better in terms of lay-out, go ahead and tweak). IBAN for Tristan, supported by Nyttend, GregJackP, Yunshui, Pass a Method, Zad68. Indef block for Tristan: Yunshui. TBAN for Tristan: Nathan Johnson, Nyttend. I support any unban of Elvenscout and any kind of ban for Tristan at this moment. Drmies (talk) 21:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I think if we are going to count GregJackP one way or the other, we need clarification. There seems to have been a misunderstanding, as neither of us was ever under a de jure TBAN, but my main problem now is that Tristan has been creating a de facto TBAN for me. GregJackP, though, seems to be in favour of a TBAN for Tristan. elvenscout742 (talk) 17:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd support a topic ban as well as/instead of an IBAN; Nathan's argument makes sense. Am I really the only one angling for an indef block? God, I'm an inhuman monster... Yunshui 雲‍水 23:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

If it means anything, I'd support an indef block. Tristan noir has essentially been following me for five months now, and the only edits he ever made to Misplaced Pages before that were to an article he created that I can't even show you because it was blocked for being a blatant copyright violation. But honestly a poetry ban would probably work just as well, since he'll stop editing altogether once he is told he's not allowed hound me anymore. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support lifting of all bans on User:Elvenscout742 and imposing topic ban on User:Tristan noir. Nyttend's analysis looks watertight to me, and it seems clear that Tristan noir has been hounding Elvenscout742 and laying traps in the hope of either provoking an inadvertent interaction ban breach or preventing the editing of a large number of items. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Response: My comments here may be wasted effort. It appears that Elvenscout742’s request above to modify or lift the interaction ban that we mutually volunteered to accept has now, through the zeal of various editors, been transformed into a general indictment of this user. That nine editors have cast a vote before waiting for my reply strongly suggests that any argument I offer is destined to fall upon deaf ears. I did not intend to try the patience of those present by my tardiness but my appearance was briefly delayed by my being placed under a 24 hour editing ban by Nyttend within one hour of Elvenscout’s opening of this appeal at WP:ANI. That troubled me briefly, as it seemed effectually to grant Elvenscout 24 hours to build a consensus while I struggled to dislodge the gag from my mouth, but c’est la vie where, in love as in war, all is fair. Nevertheless, let me attempt a summary, in good faith, of the situation as I see it.

1) The terms of the interaction ban were set by the closing administrator, Drmies, and not by me. The terms of that ban, as Drmies can testify, departed slightly from WP:IBAN in specifying that neither user was allowed to edit an article that the other user was “working on.” I read Drmies’ original ban and understood it. Elvenscout, by his own admission, read it “differently.”

2) Elvenscout violated these terms, as he himself admits, with an edit to Mokichi Saitō. He asserts that his edit was benign and that there was no cause for this user to complain to an administrator. What he conveniently neglects to report is that my complaint involved two edits. The other edit specifically references this user by name, in clear violation of the interaction ban, and merely regurgitates personal attacks he had made regarding me on various pages. I specifically did not ask Drmies in my complaint to ban Elvenscout; I simply asked if he would remind Elvenscout of the terms so that we might all proceed down our separate roads amicably. In the past few days, Elvenscout on his talk page here, here and here might be viewed as having violated the interaction ban yet again by referencing this user by name and recycling old personal attacks against me.

3) One or two editors above assert that I have been wikihounding Elvenscout and gaming the system. Elvenscout has offered no diffs to demonstrate that this is the case nor has any other party to this discussion. It appears that said editors are merely blindly accepting Elvenscout’s allegations at face value. The diffs I offer immediately above and below this paragraph show that if anyone is guilty of hounding or gaming, it is Elvenscout.

4) Elvenscout’s representation that I followed him “around various articles” is made without evidence. His recent 24 hour editing ban, however, came about as a result of his following me directly to five different articles, not one of which he’d edited previously, as documented in my complaint here. This is the same behavior that Elvenscout exhibited with me previously and is one of the chief reasons I volunteered to accept an interaction ban originally. Without dredging up the entire, sad history, I offer only a few examples of Elvenscout’s pre-interaction ban hounding. I attempted to disengage myself from earlier controversies with Elvenscout with an edit on Sept 18 of Haibun but was promptly tracked there by Elvenscout with this edit on Sept 21. Similarly, I offered an edit on Oct 6 of Prosimetrum but was shadowed there, within hours, by this edit of Elvenscout’s. In each instance, Elvenscout had never edited the articles previously and in each instance he engaged this user, and other participating editors, in lengthy talk-page debates that, with subsequent Rfcs and dispute resolutions initiated by him, further disrupted progress on the articles in question.

5) Elvenscout makes much ado about my absence from editing Misplaced Pages from Dec 9 until Jan 20. He is entitled to his speculations, of course, but I don’t see why his idle daydreaming should be granted any particular weight in this discussion. No one is required to do more than they wish to do here at Misplaced Pages; all editing is voluntary.

6) Elvenscout complains above that the interaction ban (and specifically Drmies’ decision that neither party was to edit an article the other editor had previously edited) somehow favors this user while excessively inhibiting him. I’ve edited 13 articles (by Elvenscout’s count) since imposition of the interaction ban. A look at his edit history will show that he has edited considerably more. I will allow him to be his own accountant. My point, however, is that I’m thereby restricted from a much larger group of articles than is E. due to E’s prolific editing. And I am not whining about it.

7) Elvenscout above implies that my editing of 13 articles in his “preferred field, classical Japanese literature,” somehow impinges upon his freedom. That he had not chosen to edit these articles prior to my doing so may call into question exactly how he has been constrained, but . . . . He also repeatedly remarks that I am somehow “claiming” these articles as my own. I’ve done nothing of the kind and, where editors other than Elvenscout have worked upon the same articles, I’ve had no complaints (and no controversies). No article on Misplaced Pages is the possession of any party, and much less does anyone hold a deed to his preferred field. Classical Japanese literature is somewhat larger, by my estimate, than a modest 13 articles and Elvenscout has room, and more than enough of it, to edit to his heart’s content.

8) Nyttend’s argument above that I only recently began editing Japanese articles and that Elvenscout has done so since 2008 seems beside the point. Is seniority a factor in determining the issue here, viz., whether or not an interaction ban should be lifted or modified?

9)The 24 hour editing block that Nyttend placed me under at or about the same time that he offered his argument above was for edits to Mokichi Saitō that, in his judgment, violated the interaction ban. The fact, however, is that I first edited that article, that Drmies with his warning to Elvenscout reverted the same’s transgressing edit, and that I therefore believed, given the terms Drmies had previously stipulated, that I was free to continue to edit that article. As an aside, while Nyttend subsequently reverted my edits at Mokichi Saitō, he allowed the offending edit by Elvenscout to stand (since Elvenscout had unilaterally taken it upon himself to revert Drmies’ previous revert of the same). That, along with the timing of the block that has delayed my response, call into question Nyttend’s neutrality in this matter.

10) Drmies, above, refers to “a suspicion of involvement with a now-indef blocked editor.” I’m not certain where that odd tidbit came from, but I do not now nor have I had in the past any involvement with anyone indefinitely blocked.

If I’ve neglected anything in my comments, I’m confident that I can rely upon my old friend Elvenscout to point it out.Tristan noir (talk) 11:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Just responding to points where you mention me. (8) Elvenscout obviously was editing in this field before the ban, but you essentially weren't. I brought it up simply because it's part of the evidence that you're following him around and trying to get in his way. (9) You got Elvenscout blocked for editing an article you'd edited; what do you expect to happen when you edit an article he's edited? Who created the page is irrelevant; it's the fact that you're sticking to the letter of the law and ignoring its spirit, a course of action that's generally seen as problematic. One final thing: I know absolutely nothing of Japanese poetry; the only reason that I got involved here was this thread. I was convinced that Elvenscout was in the right and you in the wrong, both because of Elvenscout's arguments and because I investigated and saw his statements to be true; I've never heard of either of you before, as far as I can remember, so I couldn't be biased or think better of one of you beforehand. Nyttend (talk) 12:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I see, Nyttend, how in good faith you may have misinterpreted the editing situation with respect to Mokichi Saitō and judged at that time that your 24 hour block was just. However, Drmies, with this edit two days ago, informed you that the situation with respect to that article was indeed as I described it and contrary to how Elvenscout has misrepresented the facts here. And yet you continue to impute bad faith (immediately above) to me on this score and continue to believe that the block, despite the clear history that Drmies offered you, was justified. More disturbing, however, is that you limit your comments to points I made about you and ignore the substantial evidence I provided above of Elvenscout's questionable edits and behavior.Tristan noir (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

(EDIT CONFLICT) I don't know why I even need to bother at this point, since everyone present knows what's going on, but I will attempt to briefly explain TN's above misrepresentations anyway.

• • • The terms of the interaction ban were set by the closing administrator, Drmies, and not by me. The terms of that ban, as Drmies can testify, departed slightly from WP:IBAN in specifying that neither user was allowed to edit an article that the other user was “working on.” I read Drmies’ original ban and understood it. Elvenscout, by his own admission, read it “differently.” Yes, I read it as meaning what it says: if TN "has been working on" an article, I am not allowed show up suddenly and begin editing it, which would be a clear interaction. One short series of edits several months earlier does not count as "being working on", and my making a benign edit to clean up the citations a bit does not count as an inappropriate interaction. At least in my reading.
    • The other edit specifically references this user by name, in clear violation of the interaction ban, and merely regurgitates personal attacks he had made regarding me on various pages. I specifically did not ask Drmies in my complaint to ban Elvenscout; I simply asked if he would remind Elvenscout of the terms so that we might all proceed down our separate roads amicably. I didn't mention it (except in a parenthetical statement) because I felt it was irrelevant to my request to be allowed edit articles on classical Japanese literature. (Did I not say "that seems unlikely given his other claim of me breaching the ban"? I also provided the diff, so that anyone reading could judge TN's words for themselves.) I did, however, point out that TN's noticing my edits to completely unrelated pages indicates that he spent the two months he was not editing articles closely following my edits. The fact is that it was not a violation of an interaction ban with TN, because it was a direct response to another user who brought TN up without knowing the facts. That user has since been blocked indefinitely for harassing/threatening me.
    • One or two editors above assert that I have been wikihounding Elvenscout and gaming the system. Elvenscout has offered no diffs to demonstrate that this is the case nor has any other party to this discussion. By my count I have provided 33 diffs in my above post. TN's edit history clearly indicates that, when told he was not allowed interact with me, he stopped editing for well over a month, and his first edit upon returning was to complain about me. Shortly thereafter he started editing prolifically , in an area he knows I am interested in (no diffs -- just look at Talk:Uta monogatari/Archive 1 and Talk:Tanka prose for myriad examples of me showing TN my reverence for this area -- well, just the first time we interacted maybe). He must also recall that I created the article on uta monogatari, and he recently attempted to block me from editing the article on the second most famous uta monogatari, Yamato Monogatari. Why did TN suddenly become so interested in classical Japanese literature when he was told I was not allowed to edit articles that he have edited? And why, when he had only edited around 10 articles in his previous four years on Misplaced Pages, did he suddenly edit 13 such articles in the space of a week?
    • Elvenscout makes much ado about my absence from editing Misplaced Pages from Dec 9 until Jan 20. One has to admit, it is suspicious that between August 2008 and September 2012, TN made only about 30 edits, all to the same article, then when I edited that article he suddenly started editing on an almost daily basis, interacting with me constantly, and then he suddenly stopped editing for close to two months.
    • Elvenscout complains above that the interaction ban ... somehow favors this user while excessively inhibiting him. Yes, I do. And I specify the reason. I am not interested in "claiming" articles that I am not interested just to spite TN. His actions over the last few days clearly indicate that he is. Therefore, while TN is not prohibited from editing in his favourite area (apparently modern English poetry) at all, I am currently banned from touching the 14 or so articles on Japanese literature that he has edited.
    • Elvenscout above implies that my editing of 13 articles in his “preferred field, classical Japanese literature,” somehow impinges upon his freedom. That he had not chosen to edit these articles prior to my doing so may call into question exactly how he has been constrained, but . . . . He also repeatedly remarks that I am somehow “claiming” these articles as my own. I’ve done nothing of the kind Which other editors has TN allowed to edit? The early history of the article at Uta monogatari clearly showed (at least until it got blocked for CO violations) that while TN will allow edits he likes, he will not allow edits he doesn't like. And this post clearly indicates that he doesn't want me editing these pages, regardless of how benign my edits were. Did he intend to add a link to Tōnomine Shōshō Monogatari to the article on Fujiwara no Takamitsu himself? Or would he have allowed another user to introduce that wikilink at some time down the line (who knows how many years that could take)? What is wrong with me introducing the link immediately? Given that the previous article I created was shortly accused of being an orphan, surely it is natural to want to link the article to its most obvious partner?
    • Nyttend’s argument above that I only recently began editing Japanese articles and that Elvenscout has done so since 2008 seems beside the point. Actually, I agree that seniority is not so important here. That is why I didn't point out that actually my first edit to Misplaced Pages under this account back in 2005 (I edited anonymously for a while) was about Japanese literature (interpreted broadly, if the Kojiki is literature). However, the fact is that TN only started editing these articles immediately upon being told that he could block me from editing them. I don't know why he thought he could get away with such blatant gaming of the system, or why he thought I would not appeal the ban under such circumstances.
    • The 24 hour editing block that Nyttend placed me under at or about the same time that he offered his argument above was for edits to Mokichi Saitō that, in his judgment, violated the interaction ban. The fact, however, is that I first edited that article, that Drmies with his warning to Elvenscout reverted the same’s transgressing edit, and that I therefore believed, given the terms Drmies had previously stipulated, that I was free to continue to edit that article. Ummm... actually, as I have stated numerous times now, my initial edit was not a violation because it was an accident. It was made two months after TN's most recent edit. The edit that got TN blocked, however, was made nine hours after my most recent edit, and not long before he contacted Drmies making it clear that he was aware of my most recent edit and was unapologetic about editing the article nonetheless.
    • Drmies, above, refers to “a suspicion of involvement with a now-indef blocked editor.” I’m not certain where that odd tidbit came from, but I do not now nor have I had in the past any involvement with anyone indefinitely blocked. I have already posted on Drmies' talk page about that. Basically, he was confusing TN's meatpuppet Kujakupoet with the now-banned user who bizarrely cited TN in a dispute I was having with him, User:JoshuSasori. Also, it might be noted that TN was clearly reading my page User:Elvenscout742/JoshuSasori rebuttal, as he referred to it in his first edit of this year. So he was clearly at least aware of my dispute with JoshuSasori.

And that, my friends, is why the previous ANI (and numerous other earlier attempts to deal with this problem) failed: TN posted a massive diatribe against me, taking various facts out of context, forcing me to respond in an equally lengthy post. It's a good thing some good admins were able to follow this problem before this happened this time. elvenscout742 (talk) 13:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

And the above complaint of a “massive diatribe” from yours truly, my friends, is further evidence of Elvenscout’s hypocrisy. Read the prior ANI at your own risk and you will discover how Elvenscout can, by sheer doggedness, talk friend and foe alike to death.

Or look at the simple evidence before you here. Elvenscout has contributed eight posts and nearly 3000 words to this ANI thread. This is my third post and I’ve yet to hit the 1500 mark. True, he did have the minor advantage of a 24 hour headstart. How has he used it? To argue in self-serving fashion that Japanese literature “broadly construed” is his “preferred field” and one that others should not be allowed to trespass. One might humor his flawed logic if he were not on the verge of convincing others here that Japanese literature as broadly construed is indeed his personal possession.Tristan noir (talk) 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• My misremembering an association with a blocked editor (Elvenscout has cleared this up on my talk page already) has no bearing on this dispute: if Tristan had been associated with such an editor that wouldn't change the facts of the matter. I mentioned it to indicate that early on I was already convinced that one side in this ongoing dispute was more right than the other, not to taint the other side. Drmies (talk) 14:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Break for convenience

Regarding the block, I don't generally see this kind of situation as an interaction worthy of a block, but in this situation, Tristan had seen it as an interaction, and since everyone should be treated as equals, I decided to respond to the situation on Tristan's terms. I would have hesitated anyway if I'd not been convinced that Tristan was editing in bad faith. Can we declare right now that Elvenscout is unbanned and then return to Tristan? Nyttend (talk) 15:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that consensus was already pretty-well established. I am sure Tristan doesn't want to see me unbanned, but this isn't his decision. How does unbanning work? elvenscout742 (talk) 09:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

We say, "you're unbanned," and you are. Since I think I'm right in saying that all commentators so far have accepted that elvenscout should be free to edit again, I think it's safe to assume that the consensus is precisely that. You may freely edit articles on which Tristan has been working (although use your common sense and try and avoid getting into another spat with him - if you find yourself heading that way, ask for help). If anyone disagrees, this would be a good time to say so. As for Tristan, I've already said my piece, but the consensus seems to be to allow him to edit under some sort of ban - I'd propose a broadly-construed topic ban on articles relating to Japanese literature, myself. Yunshui 雲‍水 11:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

That seems good. No one has been arguing for a narrow TBAN, but Nyttend mentioned Japanese "poetry" a few times. Banning Tristan from only poetry articles seems inappropriate, though, since of the thirteen articles I mentioned above, only three or four could possibly be taken as "poetry" articles. Japanese literature (broadly-construed) sounds like a good idea. I am also worried that without an IBAN (and I agree a one-way IBAN is problematic), Tristan might follow me to, say, Talk:Tales of Moonlight and Rain#Requested move 2, but a Japanese literature ban would prevent this. elvenscout742 (talk) 17:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I misread what you said originally about Japanese literature, thinking that you'd said just poetry. No objections. Nyttend (talk) 20:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Earlier today, Elvenscout sought to assure Drmies here, contrary to my assertion in point 2 of my Response above, that he had never violated the interaction ban by referencing me on Misplaced Pages by name. His exact words there are as follows: Additionally, he has claimed that the other edit mentioned him by name: you will notice that nowhere in the prose of any past version of User:Elvenscout742/JoshuSasori rebuttal did I use TN's name.

This is typical of the misrepresentation of fact practised by Elvenscout and is further reason why participants here should look closely at the diffs I offered in my response. Elvenscout, as I reported to Drmies in my original complaint and as I reported on this thread, did indeed violate the ban not only my mentioning me by name but by launching a personal attack here on Jan. 19. His exact words in that edit, contrary to his denial before Drmies, were: This is a reference to a dispute I had with another user, whose activities on Misplaced Pages were limited almost entirely to posting spam links and the fringe theories of non-notable pseudo-scholars. The user had also continuously worked to undermine my edits to numerous articles on Japanese poetry and art, and continuously relied on ad hominem attacks against me rather than reliable sources. The hyperlink leads the reader directly to my contributions page and the whole remark is placed conveniently, lest the reader not get Elvenscout's point, under the clear sub-heading User:Tristan noir.

In a similar spirit, Elvenscout, in edits to his own talk page on Jan. 30 here, here and here, again violates the ban by referencing me directly while recycling for the thousandth time his old attacks against me.

These four instances, and the vitriol of the remarks made by Elvenscout in them, seriously call into question Elvenscout’s good faith and veracity.Tristan noir (talk) 23:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

If memory serves, Tristan mentioned my name four times in his block appeal, so why is he allowed mention me by name and not vice versa? elvenscout742 (talk) 06:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I looked through contributions and followed links carefully, not knowing whether to trust Elvenscout or to disbelieve him because I'd never heard of you or him. This includes edits that I checked because I felt like it even though nobody had linked them; if Elvenscout were trying to frame you, I would have caught it. Yes, Elvenscout's comments are rather long, but why do you look at the speck of sawdust in Elvenscout's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to him, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from his eye. Nyttend (talk) 23:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I recognize this logion of Yeshua’s from my visits to Sunday School, Nyttend, and I will thank you for reminding me of it. We are all sinners. I wish, however, that you would address my remarks immediately above, since they, like my initial response which you seem largely to have ignored, are pertinent to any argument being made about lifting or modifying an interaction ban.Tristan noir (talk) 01:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Tell me Tristan: can you demonstrate that your activities on Misplaced Pages were not limited almost entirely to posting spam links and the fringe theories of non-notable pseudo-scholars?? How would you have me respond, when another user who knows nothing of our interaction attempts to misrepresent me as a disruptive user by pointing to your negative interaction with me? Should I just ignore it?? What about when that other user is threatening my real-world career and basing it purely on a misunderstanding about my motives? Or, did I accidentally threaten your real-world career by deleting the advertisements you posted on Haibun, Haiga, Tanka prose etc.?? If so, I apologize, but you really shouldn't have posted those links to Misplaced Pages in the first place, as WP:SPAM and WP:OVERLINK, as well as WP:ELNO, are quite clear on that. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Elvenscout, I’m sympathetic to the straights you were placed in by Joshu Sasori’s real-life threat and I agree that his indefinite block for making that threat was justified. What was not excuseable, and what was a direct violation of WP:IBAN, was your dragging my name into your conflict with another user and, while doing so, taking the opportunity to attack me personally yet again. So, I’m sorry about your problem with the other user. Beyond that, my above comments stand.Tristan noir (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:52, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

As Tristan well knows from reading the page, I did not "drag his name" into anything. What he above calls "the clear sub-heading User:Tristan noir" is not a sub-heading and he knows it. The page does not have original sub-headings as JoshuSasori's attack page did; it consists of a series of alternating quotations from JoshuSasori's page and my responses. The headings in the article contents are all JoshuSasori's original headings, but any other text he used has been marked as a quote. Since Tristan brought a specific edit I made to the page to the attention of Drmies, he must be aware that the code for the "sub-heading" as he calls it was "<blockquote>] - </blockquote> ".

I have now pointed this factoid out numerous times, and yet he has persisted in honing in on it rather than focusing on the problem. This is something he engaged in on Talk:Tanka in English and numerous other pages, where he will go off on rants about the publishing industry and completely ignore the actual content of my edits. THIS is why I volunteered to initiate an interaction ban with him, a ban he broke when he started closely following my edits despite not making any of his own, and when he tricked Drmies into thinking that I had reverted his edits to the article Mokichi Saitō.

Also, this discussion of whether or not I violated an interaction ban is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Consensus was already established that the interaction ban never should have applied to me because I did not make any disruptive edits, and the interaction ban has already been lifted from me. Now we are trying to disuss what should be done with Tristan noir: I therefore would like to politely ask Tristan to refrain from any further discussion of my behaviour, and instead focus on telling those present why he should not be placed under a broad TBAN for his recent pattern of disruptive behaviour. Perhaps he should start by explaining to us why he made a pointy edit to Tanka, a couple of spammy edits to Haibun, and the now famous edits to Mokichi Saitō, but otherwise showed no interest whatsoever in JLit until told he could block me from editing those articles and suddenly edited thirteen JLit articles in the space of a week.

elvenscout742 (talk) 03:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I was unaware that you, Elvenscout, were directing traffic here. I thought you were merely another participant like me. Your "explanation" of your edits above, before you enter upon your Tristam Shandy-like digression, is amusing and disingenuous. Nevertheless, this discussion is open and ongoing. No one has formally closed it and no one has issued a ruling one way or the other. So, like it or not, your conduct, like my own, is open to review.Tristan noir (talk) 04:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Since not one commentator on this discussion (which has now been open for four days) has so much as suggested that elvenscout's IBAN be retained, I stand by my earlier statement, which I reiterate here for clarity: Elvenscout is, by community consensus, no longer banned from editing pages which have previously been edited by Tristan noir. The question now is whether or not to impose a topic ban, continued one-way interaction ban, or indefinite block on Tristan noir. Yunshui 雲‍水 08:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban/Interaction ban/Indef block of Tristan noir

Okay. I'm summarizing the above results in a table. If I can be forgiven for reading GregJackP's initial vote as being in favour of a TBAN (since he said "topic ban" twice, and seems to have simply misread Nyttend's proposal), and taking both Nyttend and Drmies as now supporting "any of the above" (whatever the majority consensus otherwise would be), it goes as follows:

-- elvenscout742 (talk) 08:19, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I have contacted GregJackP for his approval on my above interpretation. He did say he supported Nyttend's initial proposal, which was specifically an IBAN, so I guess we shouldn't count him out for an IBAN just yet. Also, can we take the TBAN topic as being "Japanese literature"? elvenscout742 (talk) 08:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed count myself (is this a community consensus or, being AN, an admin thing?), but I must admit to an ulterior motive for being in favour of an indef block: if Tristan noir weren't still around, this redirect could finally be dealt with. It only exists because Tristan noir unilaterally derailed an AfD, and despite his promise he has made no attempt to perform the merge that was suggested. Thanks to Drmies's fixing the page, a merge is likely no longer possible. But none of the proposed solutions (other than indef) address this minor issue. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of adding in a new heading since Elvenscout has had their topic ban lifted and the discussion has moved on to a discussion of sanctions that are to be applied to Tristan noir. I have no view in this matter, just merely making the threads easier to track. Blackmane (talk) 12:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I support a topic ban on Tristan, in the area of Japanese literature, broadly interpreted. GregJackP Boomer! 12:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Support some kind of action, elven shouldn't have to put with nonsense, especially as elven is doing content development in an area that really requires a rare skillset, consider my !vote to support any/all of the above. Zad68 21:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Request to revoke Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive706#Two topic bans for TonyTheTiger

I saw this mentioned in a discussion (where they were attempted to be used to object to him photographing camera equipment he happened to own, which is, it must be said, outside any reasonable interpretation of the topic ban anyway), was a bit surprised, and reviewed it. I honestly don't think these serve any non-punitive purpose anymore, if they ever did serve a purpose. As it's been a year and a half, unless anyone has good reason to continue upholding them, I think it's time to lift them. Adam Cuerden 18:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, I read it a bit different. What I see on that page is:

1: Topic ban of TonyTheTiger from Featured Sounds

2. Topic ban of TonyTheTiger from uploading images about himself, broadly construed

Could you please give a link to the discussion where you stumbled upon, leading you to review these topic bans? The Banner talk 19:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

As you wish: Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/Canon_EF_40mm_STM_lens_(focus_stacked_version). I don't think its mention in that thread was justified, but I do think, frankly, that Tony forgot about it is probably a good sign he hasn't done any behaviour that was worth reminding him of it in the 18 months since. I sincerely doubt he'd have been allowed to forget about it had he carried on in such a manner that would justify bringing it up. Adam Cuerden 20:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you the the mention of the topic bans there was a bit harsh. On the other hand, it is easy to read "uploading images about himself, broadly construed" as "uploading images about himself and his possessions." (as the discussion also mentioned the many pictures of prizes posted on his TP). The Banner talk 22:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Lift ban 18 months is long enough to give the user another shot. (Note: I participated in that discussion as User:Atmoz.) -Nathan Johnson (talk) 19:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I notified 28bytes, who closed the discussion at Archive706. Nyttend (talk) 20:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• As Nyttend noted above, he let me know about this discussion; I'll let others weigh in on whether the topic bans are still necessary, but for the record I think it's quite a stretch to say that a topic ban preventing "uploading images about himself, broadly construed" could cover objects like this. I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of the topic ban, even considering the "broadly construed" bit. 28bytes (talk) 21:01, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Lift ban per Nathan Johnson. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 21:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• (e/c) The featured sounds process is dead and has been for yonks, so a topic ban on participation is otiose. If FS does start up again, it will require a lot of discussion about how to do it in order to avoid the problems that led to his demise, and I see no particular purpose in pre-emptively banning TTT from potential future discussions about "WP:FS Mark II". I agree that the topic ban does not cover photographs of an item of photographic equipment that he happens to own. Having said that, I see no particular merit in keeping the ban on "uploading images of himself, broadly construed" at this time; if the lifting of it proves to be problematic, then the topic ban can be easily reimposed. Bencherlite 21:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• As some context for my comments in that review (which is what Adam is getting at, I think), Tony has been repeatedly nominating images of his camera equipment for FPC over the last couple of weeks. These images largely haven't been in the article for a week as is required, and there has been a strong consensus that they don't meet the FP standards. I'd commented on several of the previous nominations, and raised the potential topic ban issue only when Tony kept posting these doomed nominations (other editors had previously asked that he cease these nominations given that he appears to be using them as means of getting feedback on his photography, which isn't the intended purpose of FPC). In short, I think that this pattern of behaviour violates - at very least - the spirit of the topic ban. The image in question here was nominated the day it was uploaded and didn't have a chance of passing as the lens is lightly covered in dust (a specific concern raised in some of Tony's previous recent camera equipment FPCs) and the lighting is clearly a bit off. His other recent nominations of his camera equipment are at Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/January-2013#Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM, Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/January-2013#Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II, Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/January-2013#Tiffen UV filter Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/January-2013#Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM (version 2) (note that in several cases Tony uploaded completely different photos during these nominations after receiving negative feedback about the photo which was originally nominated, which is also violates the requirement that nominated images have been in the article for a week). This is basically the same pattern of behavior which led to the topic bans being instituted in the first place, and so I oppose lifting them at this time. Nick-D (talk) 22:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Nick, first of all, the 7-day thing is a recommendation, it's not a requirement, Particularly when he's taking feedback from one nom, and trying to make a picture that will respond to the issues raised and thereby be an improvement - which is by any reasonable account a good thing. I really don't think your behaviour was helpful, but that's quite secondary to the problem here: That there is no need to restrict a generally good contributor. Hell, I'm not even sure it was justified at the time, but it probably doesn't help to second-guess that now. Adam Cuerden 21:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• Lift ban per Nathan Johnson. (Full disclosure: my "1/2 GA" is due TtT's work on Carly Foulkes). NE Ent 23:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
• Lift all of his bans - What is this obsession with enacting bans on Misplaced Pages's greatest content contributors? Has anyone looked at how much this guy does here? Who cares about some mild vainglory? I note that certain other editors get away with far worse behavior because they are good content contributors. Lift these pointless bans. The Master ---)Vote Saxon(--- 07:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Harassment of User:Dmitri1999 for having contributed content to the site.

Seriously, now? Having professional photographers contribute their work is now grounds to delete his userpage - less than a day after the point was first raised, and before anyone could have dealt with it - see User_talk:Dmitri1999 for rather shocking unilateral behaviour on User:Hoary's part - and go around removing his photos from English Misplaced Pages because he dared to contribute high-quality photos, then mentioned "I can do this kind of work"?

One may say that's unfair. However, given the precipitous behaviour of deleting the userpage instead of treating the person like a human....

Look, no matter how bad the userpage was, the slightest bit of working with the individual would have likely kept us a talented photographer. Instead, it's already got to the point where he's asking for all his work to be removed, because of the systematic harassment campaign dedicated to removing his work.

Is this really what we want to do here? Adam Cuerden 15:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and I am not surprised that he is pissed off. This could have been handled better.--ukexpat (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• This is not atypical on Misplaced Pages, it's widespread; I've seen several somewhat similar situations in just the last few days. We really need to change the way we deal with good-faith editors when we think they're doing something wrong. The reaction we shouldn't take is immediately kick them in the nuts with the justification "well, policy was being violated, I had to kick them in the nuts. Please show how they weren't violating policy". Have the policy discussion first, and the nut kicking will, 90 times out of a hundred, become unnecessary. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:IGNORANCE (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that some professional photographers may come here not with the primary goal of improving the encyclopedia, but because they see Misplaced Pages as a powerful promotional medium - and we do not allow that usage. (Of course it's not only photographers who thinlk this way, many businesses of all sorts attempt to use us for their own purposes.) To me, the key is this: if the person involved has it explained to them what we are about and how they can help – as seems to have happened here judging from their talk page – and instead of sticking around and contributing they take their ball and go home, then they were never here for the right reason to begin with. We do indeed need professional photographers, and experts of all kinds, but we need them on our terms, not on theirs. I see no "harrassment" here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Like  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  05:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Ken, WP:AGF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.241.58.251 (talk) 15:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

One assumes good faith until the evidence shows otherwise, as it did here. Keeping an open mind is good, but not so open that one's brains fall out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The point is not that I think Dmitri1999 is perfect, or innocent. The user page seems a bit promotional. It's also been there for more than 2 years, so there was no crisis that needed to be solved by its immediate deletion. The point is that it is unproductive to treat someone editing in good faith but making mistakes like dirt, order them to change, and then expect them to stick around and continue to help out. It's more productive to not treat them like dirt and ask them to change, and listen to their opinion too. At least try it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I have not much time, and will be back on Monday. But before I leave I would like to advise you, before giving (too) fast judgments, and talking of "good faith", to study the history of his contributions (and comments) in the last week or so, included the part of his Talk page that he deleted yesterday. After that, maybe you will change your mind. As a matter of fact, Hoary was the second or third admin ( plus several users like me) who had to deal with this guy in the last days. For me, this was a clear "nut kicking" case. Hoary did a great job, and if he had hesitated, I was ready to take this guy to the noticeboard for edit warring (after advice of another admin). Alex2006 (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The point is not that I think Dmitri1999 is perfect, or innocent. The fact that he was edit warring or getting upset at rude edit summaries and using even ruder edit summaries of his own, doesn't alter my point. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Aside from Dmitri1999 himself, the only user mentioned in the message that kicks off this thread is me; indeed, there's not even a reference to any unnamed users.

I infer that I am charged with:

1. Harassment of Dmitri1999 for having contributed content to the site
2. Deleting the user page of Dmitri1999 on the grounds that he is a professional photographer contributing his work
3. Rather shocking unilateral behaviour
4. Going around removing Dmitri1999's photos from English Misplaced Pages because he dared to contribute high-quality photos, then mentioned "I can do this kind of work"
5. Not treating the person using the username Dmitri1999 as a human
6. Failing to do the slightest bit of working with Dmitri1999
7. Conducting a systematic harassment campaign dedicated to removing the work of Dmitri1999

Quite a list. One at a time:

1. What "harassment"?
2. No. I deleted it because it was promotional (check for yourself in my log file). Or anyway this was my stated rationale. Of course, it's conceivable that I was and am lying about this. Am I charged with lying too?
3. Please specify the behaviour that you have in mind.
4. No. I removed some of Dmitri1999's photos for the reasons I gave in the edit summaries. Or anyway these were my stated rationales (see my second response, above). Incidentally, my edit summaries now strike me as worded unfortunately.
5. Please specify the way in which I treated Dmitri1999 as less than, or other than, human.
6. Yes, you are correct, I failed to do the slightest bit of working with Dmitri1999. Why? Because I could say nothing that had not already been said straightforwardly on his user talk page and in edit summaries. I'd observed his recent pattern of edits (epitomized here, in dispute with User:Velella and User:TheMindsEye). He'd already been warned about the user page. Incidentally, I now think that it was wrong of me to delete it just fifteen hours after the warning was posted (and I elaborate on this below). Any administrator is free to restore it (but see below).
7. See the first item in this list.

So, I plead guilty to deleting his user page too quickly, and to wording two or more edit summaries poorly.

If I deleted his user page too quickly (as I now think I did), why was this? Probably because, as my log file will confirm, a large percentage of my recent administrative work has been dealing with what's thrown up in Usernames for administrator attention/Bot. There are false positives, genital/rectal-related names (presumably from children and drunks), but also a depressing number of corporate usernames whose activities quickly turn out to combine the spamming of articles and the posting of an advert on the user page. Such promotion-only accounts are nuked on sight, together with their self-promoting user pages. So I probably mis-applied to Dmitri1999's user page practices from "Usernames for administrator attention". Which I say not to justify the mis-application, merely to explain it.

I can restore the user page if asked. Incidentally, I checked just now to see if it had been restored in any way. It has. It now reads: Total bullshit! Blanking the page would be more considerate and less contentious, assholes! (This eruption is not from Dmitri1999 but from User:Canoe1967.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:46, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The page was somewhat promotional, but not so bad that speedy deletion was necessary. I think that it would have been best to have asked Dmitri to have toned it down a bit, but the changes wouldn't have need to be major. Jumping in and deleting it before he could respond seems a bit over the top. I've seen academics with user pages which, quite appropriately, list their fields of expertise, major publications and contact details, and an approach like that would have been in order. User:JJ Harrison's user page also provides a possible model; he describes his expertise and showcases his best work, and notes in passing that people who'd like to license his excellent photos can contact him via email. Nick-D (talk) 06:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

That said, Dmitri has been seriously out of line calling people who remove his photos 'vandals' (eg, , ) and taking a high-handed approach to the removal of their work in general (see the edit summary here). Nick-D (talk) 06:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• If I might make an observation, I think people are perhaps being a tad too hard on each other on both sides here - there is good faith all round, and we need to keep that in mind. Has Dmitri1999 been trying to promote himself professionally using Misplaced Pages? Undoubtedly - adding his wedding photos (excellent though they are) to articles about places just because they happen to have been taken in that place is about as blatant as it gets. Has he been using his photos decoratively rather than to illustrate an important encyclopedic point? Yes. Was his user page unduly promotional? No idea - I can't see it. But on the other side, did anyone really take the trouble the properly explain the use of images in Misplaced Pages articles? Nope. Was the deletion of his user page a little heavy-handed? Yep (and credit to Hoary for the comment above - I think it would be worth restoring at least temporarily, so that we can at least all see it). Is he worth engaging with in order to help improve the encyclopedia? Undoubtedly. Dmitri is a very talented photographer who produces some superb work, and rather than adopting the "He has to toe *our* line if he wants to use his photos here" approach, I think we should be approaching it more from the angle "We have a very talented contributor here, so what can *we* do to get the best from what he is offering us". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

  Oh, and Canoe1967's version of Dmitri1999's user page should be promptly deleted -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

  I invited Canoe1967 here, but he doesn't seem to like the idea. -- Hoary (talk) 12:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Responses to remarks above (but not Nick-D's or Boing!'s, which I'll get to a bit later):

I don't think I did anything that can reasonably be described as kicking somebody in the nuts.

I'm glad to see that Beyond My Ken sees no harassment. However, I don't fully agree with him elsewhere. I know a fair number of professional photographers, and none has an easy time supporting him/herself, let alone feeding kids and putting them through college. (Of course the observation that photography is going through hard times is unoriginal.) It's unrealistic to expect that pro photographers, other perhaps than a few in extraordinary circumstances, will put time and effort into disinterested contributions to Misplaced Pages or Commons. Meanwhile, although there are pros whose work I loathe and amateurs whose photobooks I buy, on average pro photographers are better at their jobs than are mere amateurs. I think that pro photographers can constructively make contributions to Commons/Wikipedia while they actually have their own interests firmly in mind. However, this requires calmness and sensitivity. Looking at Dmitri1999's edit summaries since his return to WP in late January, I don't see this at all. He adds his photos for their professionalism, he decries their removal as vandalism.

Floquenbeam: The user page seems a bit promotional. It's also been there for more than 2 years, so there was no crisis that needed to be solved by its immediate deletion. True, there was no crisis. However, his edit history shows a great number of edits since 23 January (after an eleven-month break). All those that I looked at seemed to increase the salience of the photographer, and some were quite extraordinary -- notably this one, in which Dmitri1999 adds a (good) photo of his own to the top of "Photojournalism", thus placing it together with (but above) a small number of the most renowned photographs in history (an edit that brought no favorable comments that I have noticed, and unfavorable reactions from User:Antique Rose and User:Dougweller). -- Hoary (talk) 06:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Update: In accordance with the majority sentiment above, and the specific request from Boing!, I have restored all earlier versions of User:Dmitri1999. The result was of course that these became earlier versions of a page written by Canoe1967. I then reverted Canoe1967's edit, but I did not delete it. (I have no objection to its deletion or its existence.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Within an amicable and constructive message above, Boing! writes: But on the other side, did anyone really take the trouble properly explain the use of images in Misplaced Pages articles? Nope.

The use of images, possibly not. Self-promotion, certainly yes. A bit more digging in contribution histories suggests to me that Dmitri1999 started as a self-promoter. Only admins will be able to see the history of the deleted article "Toronto Wedding Photography" but I think that an uninvolved admin who looks will confirm that this started as a blatant self-advertisement on his talk page, underwent various changes, and when moved to "Toronto Wedding Photography" was still a feebly-disguised self-advertisement, starting in the third person (Dmitri Markine is...) but continuing with Due to very high demand,starting in 2008,destination wedding photography services will be introduced for a maximum of 4 events/year. Please call or email to schedule an appointment. As early as 22 September 2007, Dmitri1999's user talk page was given a COI template, politely dissuading him from editing where there could be a COI, and ending For information on how to contribute to Misplaced Pages when you have conflict of interest, please see Misplaced Pages:Business' FAQ. For more details about what constitutes a conflict of interest, please see Misplaced Pages:Conflict of Interest (admins, see this deleted version of what was then his user talk page but would later become the deleted article "Toronto Wedding Photography"). Dmitri1999's user page now is very similar to his user talk page as of 31 March 2010; two months later, this got a db-spam template from the alarmingly named User:Mean as custard. This "speedy" template remained for a leisurely six months, whereupon the entire content was blanked by User:Protonk (who rather inexplicably cited WP:REFUND).

Dmitri1999 seems to have lost patience with WP in February 2012: see this (about licensing, not advertising). He returned in late January 2013. Only four days later, he was warned by User:Janweh64 about excessive insertion of his own photographs. Dmitri1999's response starts I am not self promoting myself so I have no reason to stop. I've already responded to a similar allegation in commons. If you don't like it, please report it. Surely an acknowledgment of a charge of self-promotion.

All in all I think a self-promotional motif in Dmitri1999's editing patterns has been clear for over five years, and that he has already received sufficient warning about this. And while I do not claim to have looked at all his talk-page edits, within those I have looked at I have not seen either honest mystification or requests for clarification. -- Hoary (talk) 08:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC) Green (for those with CSS) interpolation added 03:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that he has been using Misplaced Pages for promotion. I removed two images recently he added to language articles - and as inappropriate - see French language for an article using images appropriately. He also added an image to Photojournalism which I believe was both inappropriate and promotional. See the discussion at Talk:Photojournalism. Dougweller (talk) 11:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Good faith is a two way trade. Dmitri1999 started his editing career by posting several promotional links into articles , examples here and here. On 28th March 2008 he renamed his talk page to Toronto Wedding Photography and then blanked it and marked it for speedy deletion under G11 which happened on 29th March here. It is reasonable to assume that it contained several warnings about promotional conduct which he took great care to make disappear. These actions are the not the actions of a Misplaced Pages novice. It is clear that the impropriety of commercial promotion was evident to him from the very first days of his editing career. To continue to pursuing promotion of his own business from then till now seems to be taking a blatant disregard to the mores and etiquette of Misplaced Pages. He is cocking a snoot at the rest of Misplaced Pages.

I have a concern about licensing which is probably better addressed at commons where his requirements that his commercial web-site addressed must be used in any reproduction of his images.

I also have an issue that many of photographs are not that good or not that relevant. They are probably excellent for commercial weddings but highly manipulated and cropped shots are often un-encyclopaedic as they have lost much of the context that made them accurate, reliable and informative. One replacement made by Dmitri was replacing an existing shot of a Mursi woman with one of his own. Whilst his shot is very dramatic, it is also highly digitally manipulated and has not got the wealth of ethnographic details in the original including the background vegetation, the body jewellery and the original natural colours. On another occasion he replaces a shot with one of his claiming the original has copyright issues here; it doesn't.

My conclusion from all of this and much more including his attacking and belligerent edit summaries is that on Misplaced Pages his behaviour is disingenuous. There are on Misplaced Pages very many excellent professional photographers giving their skills for free, unannounced and without fanfares. I am sorry, but in my book, he has reneged on any good-faith that should be extended to him. His material is often worse than other contributors and he hacks off other users with abusive and frankly bullying edit summaries. His behaviour is much more likely to loose other editors and I, for one, shan't put out my hand to say please return. My support if for Hoary  Velella    21:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

(Further comment inserted here to keep my arguments in one place). The argument that Dmitri is a professional photographer and therefore to be valued for that does not hold water. I know of several very eminent contributors in their respective fields, eminent scientists, business leaders, doctors (physicians) etc. who neither advertise their eminence nor react in an aggressive manner when challenged. I cannot of course verify this without outing named Wikipedians but I am sure than most long experienced Wikipedians will acknowledge that this is true. It is also the case that Dmitri has long experience here and will have encountered the Bold, Revert, Discuss mantra. This has never happened. For Dmitri, it is Bold, Harangue, Restore boastfully. If he were a teenager editing on a school, computer would we have cut him anywhere this amount of slack? I don't believe so.  Velella    10:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I've done some more rooting around in the history of Dmitri1999's description of himself:

• 2010.03.31: Dmitri1999 has his user talk page describe himself, very similarly to the way his user page will later describe himself (before I deleted the latter, and as it describes him now)
• 2010.05.05: Mean as Custard applies db-spam to the user talk page
• 2010.05.05: HJMitchell deletes the user talk page (edit summary: Deleted because "CSD G11- advertising or promotion". using TW) (as shown in the log page)
• 2010.12.04 (04:20): Dmitri1999 voices his displeasure on HJMitchell's talk page. (HJMitchell seems not to have been impressed. The message remains unanswered.)
• 2010.12.04 (04:28): Dmitri1999 appeals at Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion
• 2010.12.04 (05:56): Protonk restores the user talk page (edit summary: 36 revisions restored: Undeleting since it is a talk page, but will blank) (as shown in the log page)
• 2010.12.04 (05:56): Protonk blanks the user talk page (edit summary: blanking, explanation at WP:REFUND)
• 2010.12.04 (05:59): Protonk replies at Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion: I've restored the page and blanked it. Notwithstanding the fact that it is your talk page, you may not use any[REDACTED] page as a personal advertisement. Misplaced Pages is not the place to host your cv. I can see in the history that you have added that material several times. (There were no later additions to this RfU thread: see archive 25.)
• 2010.12.07: Dmitri1999 adds this material to his user page.
• 2011.01.01: Mean as custard blanks the user page (edit summary: Remove self-promotion)
• 2011.02.21 (03:15): RN1970 reverts the blanking (edit summary: It's a user page, not an article)
• 2011.02.21 (03:19): RN1970 self-reverts (edit summary: rv. myself, after re-reading WP:USERPAGE)
• 2011.03.27: Dmitri1999 readds the material to his user page

As I look at this sorry history, I have trouble justifying the presence of this material in the user page. -- Hoary (talk) 00:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC), slightly edited 03:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The user page should be deleted as blatant advertising, a clear violation of WP:User pages. (But, then, I have virtually zero tolerance for people using Misplaced Pages for promotional purposes.) I'd nominate it for AfD myself if it wasn't such a pain (since I don't use Twinkle). Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't use Twinkle either. The process is indeed a bit tiresome, but most of my time is consumed in thinking about the delete rationale, articulating this, and debugging and polishing the result, tasks in which Twinkle would surely be of no help. -- Hoary (talk) 23:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

It's following the steps in setting up a discussion which is hard for me - the writing goes easily enough after that. The difficulty isone reason I generally don't nominate articles for AfD (the other is my generally inclusionist leanings). Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Commons discussion

Apologies if this has already been linked, but there is a concurrent discussion happening on Commons' Administrators' Noticeboard. I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but it appears that the userpage has been restored over there and there is now a proposal to "formally censure all people involved with harassing Dimitri off Commons". I have no opinion on this issue, just pointing it out. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:54, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that the user page there was ever deleted, but I'm not sure how to check. -- Hoary (talk) 01:04, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Nope, it has never been deleted on Commons. Graham87 07:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Deleting Dmitri's images from articles, and more

• I was just browsing wedding articles for an article I am writing for my

photography program at college and after some browsing I found this thread, as I recognized a photograph in the article. I am very surprised he is donating his images. There's a good reason why there are almost no professional photographers contributing...

Dmitri is actually a very well known in Canada among photographers. Even our teacher was mentioning him as one of the best Canadian photographers. I've never met him,but heard a lot of good things about his work over the years from others. His pictures speak for themselves! I can only guess that there's some kind of professional rivalry or personal vendetta that is coming from people who is against him. He is clearly a good photographer and we should be very happy that a photographer of such caliber took the time out of his busy schedule to donate a few pictures.

I don't believe how you've treated(and keep at it) is professional. It is not what Misplaced Pages should be about.

I found thatUser talk:Velella, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary have been deleting Dmitri's images from articles even after this discussion had started. Since those users did not care about others opinions, they should be banned or punished. What I understood, Dmitri took it personal when his pictures were being deleted from articles, with accusations of him being a spammer -all of us would be angry! Just look at his latest uploads, they are not linked to any articles,because of the actions of select few people here who took it upon themselves to be the final judge.User talk:Velella in his angry harsh statements above,critiquing the images is clearly someone who is either a)very angry at User talk:Dmitri1999 b)Does not know anything about photography c)color blind As a person who've been involved in photography field for many years, his angry statements are not only wrong,but quite laughable.

I think there are a few things that have to be done to resolve this:

• Apology to the photographer.

• Restoring all the images in articles where User talk:Velella, Alex2006, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary deleted his images

• Perhaps some disciplinary actions against those 4 individuals(I think it's

only 4,but maybe more were involved.)

• Maybe creating some kind of a safeguard to avoid the same issues at a later day

• We may also consider deleting some of defamation statements that were said

by a few of the mentioned individuals. Since you can't proof that it was self-promotion and spam(I can't see any), what you said can be interpreted as libel. In theory, Misplaced Pages can be taken to court,since it was said against his business.

Then and only then it's fair to assume he may come back. I don't personally see him coming back anytime before at least most of these measures are taken

What's the point of all this discussion if in a week or a month another "hot shot" will come in and start deleting his images from articles. Nobody likes their time and hard work wasted. 74.198.9.33 (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)JWong74.198.9.33 (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It is nice to hear from someone who doesn't have any stake in this whatsoever. Thank you for taking the time to express your unbiased opinion as an unbiased observer. It was lucky that you happened to stumble across this discussion when you did. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting to note that 74.198.9.33 originates from Toronto, which just (coincidentally!) happens to be where Dmitri1999 is from. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, that's some interesting class the IP editor is taking. Talking about notable Canadian photographers, and it's not Yousuf Karsh or Edward Burtynsky they're discussing, it's an obscure wedding photographer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, one class could be about wedding photography. And let's not make gratuitous use of words such as "obscure". -- Hoary (talk) 09:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The use of "obscure" wasn't gratuitous at all, it's based on some Google searching. I also submit that any well-known notable wedding photographer wouldn't have the need to use Misplaced Pages to promote his or her business. Word-of-mouth would have taken care of that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

May I start by seconding DC's welcome to you. (Note to others: the discussion that the IP stumbled across was the one at Commons. Seeing that the IP's comment there was at least in part about Misplaced Pages, I invited him here.) You say:

User talk:Velella, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary have been deleting Dmitri's images from articles even after this discussion had started. Since those users did not care about others opinions, they should be banned or punished.

And your list of demands includes:

Restoring all the images in articles where User talk:Velella, Alex2006, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary deleted his images

Before I am banned from Misplaced Pages and thus unable to make any of these changes (or indeed even apologize for earlier misdeletions), please specify the three most egregious examples of image deletion, whether by me or anybody else. Thank you. -- Hoary (talk) 04:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Just because Dmitri1999 is a good photographer, doesn't mean any of these are actually useful for an educational project. Everything's staged, full of photographic filters, and of incredibly low resolutions. However, the Commons are likely going to deify him because the community at the Commons praises providers of free content, regardless of the content's possible use amongst the Wikimedia projects or other educational settings. As I can see, this is already happening.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think these factors come into it at all. It's almost impossible to know what some Wikimedia project might need to use in the future, so it's rare that I think an image is out of scope for the Commons -- although it has happened. The important thing (at least to me) is not the technical quality of the images, or their content, but the attempt to use Commons and en.Wiki for promotional purposes. That's an extremely dangerous thing to allow to happen, since it can knock NPOV right off its keester, and there goes any amount of good reputation we've managed to build up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Let's be polite about both the JPEGs and the photographer. But yes, this new discussion, to which you point, about the alleged hounding of Dmitri1999 is fascinating. Surely the tastiest comment is this one, in which an editor recommends righting the injustice by cannibalism. (Of myself, if I understand correctly. Note to anybody salivating: I'm old and lean.) A great pity that this straight-talking editor, briefly mentioned some way above, has declined to join our little discussion here. -- Hoary (talk) 06:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• Not so Ryulong. Commons is not, in any way, trying to deify Dmitri's contributions. Look better! -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 10:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

  It certainly looks that way.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Dmitri1999 may have been treated rather extremely, but... is it just me or did he make a small number of worthwhile edits back in 2007-8, then replace his talk page with a link to his commercial website, hold some brief talk page conversations for a few years, then suddenly reappear on 23 January and start posting a lot of photos on articles? There's nothing wrong with increasing the number of photos on articles, but most of them appear to be his, and this seems to imply he is here to advertise his own commercial venture. No one appears to have contacted him on his user talk page and politely requested that he actually work to improve the encyclopedia a bit before adding any more of his own photos to articles. The Wedding photography article doesn't need any more photographs: it is a mess, with a 5-paragraph-long intro, possible OR issues, and an average of 1-inline-citation-per-400-words. How about requesting that he actually write something to demonstrate his good faith (he is obviously a SPA, but that may or may not be a problem), and then moving on? elvenscout742 (talk) 07:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

For instance, he could add references for "WPJA awards an annual Photographer of the Year Award to recognize the best in wedding photojournalism" before he adds his own photo and claims he won it

Also, I know he's allowed upload photos and ask that due attribution be given off-wiki, but is he allowed upload photos and then insist that we are not allowed to use them on-wiki? Hypothetically, his photos could have been used in 100 articles by now, and asking that they be taken down just because he is the one who took them seems to have that effect.

elvenscout742 (talk) 07:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he was away for eleven months before reappearing on 23 January, adding his photos. I think that different people have different aptitudes and preferences, and I don't think it's a good idea to expect people to write before they add photos. However, it would of course be good if they at least corrected things here and there, thereby suggesting that they had read the articles and cared about what they said. I also wonder about the wisdom of asking somebody whose edits are in some way problematic to write about the awards that he's won. ¶ Yes, the Wedding photography article is indeed dreadful, and it has long been something of a battleground between would-be (self-) promoters, plural, and defenders of the (crappy) status quo. I suppose one problem is that there's not so much in the way of reliable sources that anybody other than a would-be or current wedding photographer would actually want to read. (There are plenty of books, of course, but who'd want to pay for them?) Perhaps the article most needs one or more contentedly retired wedding photographers, who have a sense of perspective and also have one or two books lying around. As for the use of images, one uploads them to Commons with this or that appropriate license, and that license then stays. (I so I thought.) Misplaced Pages can then use those images. -- Hoary (talk) 09:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Publicly-revealed passwords

I'm an admin, but I've logged out because I just left a message at the talk page of the user in question, and I don't want it to be easy for anyone to go through my contributions to guess what user I'm talking about. I'll Special:Emailuser you if you respond to this thread and say that you're willing to help.

I just found a newly registered user whose userpage has had a few different revisions, the earliest of which included the account's password. The user removed this phrase in his or her next edit, but it's still publicly visible in the page history. To test it, I logged out and tried the username and password, and I was able to log into that account, although of course I immediately logged out again. Should we RevDel the revision text and the edit summary, since the password is in both of them? Or what about Oversight, or simply doing nothing? The latest version of the userpage also includes an email address, so I warned the user that it might not be a good idea and provided directions for a U1 speedy deletion if he or she decides not to keep the email address publicly visible. 98.223.199.119 (talk) 02:14, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The last case I know of/remember the password was RevDel and the account blocked indef (forever) as compromised. However I only remember of one case that exists so.. I'm not an administrator so someone else will need to take action. gwickwire_edits 02:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

RevDel, and compromised account block. --Rschen7754 02:24, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Do you think it okay for me to do it, or should I ask someone else off-wiki? 98.223.199.119 (talk) 02:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes do it! Vegaswikian (talk) 02:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I know exactly what account your talking about (as I was wondering what to do with it myself (and who to report it to)) and imo, at the very least it should be revdel'd and as mentioned above possibly blocked - Happysailor 02:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Blocked, deleted, and revdeleted. Thanks for the advice! Nyttend (talk) 03:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

With unified login, I'm pretty sure it's advisable to ask for an account to be globally locked if it is compromised. Since I'm not sure what account is being referred to, you can do so at Meta:Steward_requests/Global#Requests for global (un)lock and (un)hiding Nil Einne (talk) 13:16, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, nevermind I decided not to be lazy so worked out which account it was and made the request myself. Nil Einne (talk) 13:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

There's no harm in locking the account, tho I note that I had already looked into whether that was needed and as the user has never edited outside of enwiki, I figured it was unlikely they'd show up somewhere else :) Snowolf 13:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Remember we don't actually care so much if the original editor shows up elsewhere with this account. The only reason they were blocked is because of the compromise so we have no problems with them editing elsewhere with this account, it isn't ideal but not really a reason to block. The issue is whether it's likely someone will use the account to make mischief or whatever elsewhere from seeing the password here. Them having edited elsewhere is not going to make it much more likely people interested in editing elsewhere will have seen the password here. So whether or not they've edited elsewhere doesn't have much effect on the risk the account is compromisable elsewhere. However there is perhaps less reason for someone to try to re-use the account if they don't think it may be an advantage which could arise when the account has an established identity elsewhere which someone is hoping to re-use or for that matter if the account had an established identity here (which this account did not) which someone hopes people will recognise from their interactions here, but not to the extent they know it was compromised. But anyway my impression is whenever Jack Merridew went on one of his password spreading rampages these accounts were locked, I don't think anyone cared whether or not they had edited elsewhere. The big difference there was these were much more high profile cases so it was much more likely someone would have seen it or would be able to find it who was interested in creating problems elsewhere. Nil Einne (talk) 17:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

User:14.139.240.246

This unregistered user has vandalized multiple pages and been warned multiple times. I suggest that this user receive a ban, as they have received their fair share of warnings. FrigidNinja (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

{{schoolblock}} for one week by User:Elockid. —Theopolisme (talk) 22:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Rfc in Talk:Progressive utilization theory

Could I get an administrator to take a look at Talk:Progressive utilization theory and its recent edit history to decide the appropriate place to place an Rfc header? Closing or collapsing some of the lengthy discussions might also be helpful. Thanks! Location (talk) 21:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I think this has been resolved. Thanks again! Location (talk) 03:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

User:68.40.217.90

• 68.40.217.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user continues to vandalize[REDACTED] by adding incorrect information despite having been blocked previously. A longer term or permanent block should be warranted. Spanneraol (talk) 03:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Please provide diffs to support your claim, ensuring that the edits are clear cases of vandalsim and not simply unsourced good faith additions. Thanks. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:35, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The edits that caused the previous two blocks were ridiculous without even looking into it. The more recent edits actually appear plausible, if unsourced. Do you know for certain that what he's adding is incorrect? Someguy1221 (talk) 09:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes he is adding information to various baseball player pages stating that they have signed with teams that they have not signed with.. and he has done it several times. Spanneraol (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Blocked for two weeks, since it's technically a BLP-policy violation. Nyttend (talk) 19:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Unblock request

User:Swagle was blocked (for good reasons). After discussion at User talk:Swagle, I've contacted the blocking admin, User:Bencherlite, and he's emailed me to say he's happy for Swagle to be unblocked - but he only has phone access at the moment and can't do it himself. As I'm on an admin break and don't have the tools right now, would someone be kind enough to oblige? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done. 28bytes (talk) 08:32, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:40, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Applebee's

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A recent IP user added a highly offensive racist screed to the article. Would it be possible for an admin to please remove that revision from the history? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 11:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• Just noting this was already handled Spartaz 12:05, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The OTRS team needs help!

OTRS is receiving an increasing number of emails, and we are greatly in need of more volunteers to catch up and help prevent backlog. OTRS volunteers choose how many emails they'd like to answer and have access to a large number of templated replies that can be used or modified to speed up processing. Your private information would not be exposed to the public; replies are issued from a shared Wikimedia email address.

We are looking especially for people who are strong in any or all of the following areas:

1. Familiar with processes on Misplaced Pages and able to answer routine questions about them (some common responses include refdesk referrals; explanations of deletion processes or how to edit. The kind of thing you might run into at the Teahouse or Help desks);
2. Familiar with acceptable licenses for images and text and willing to handle correspondence related to permissions (many routine, but some issues include unclear statements of permission or permissions issued by people who can't be clearly connected to the source);
3. Familiar with policies regarding living people and organizations and able to assist article subjects with lightweight needs (updating logos, correcting small information) or serious concerns (allegations of gross inaccuracy; bias).

For more information about volunteering, please see m:OTRS/Recruiting. This is a great chance to be part of the public face of Wikimedia. We can't always help people, but we do our best to leave them impressed with our professionalism and responsiveness. Please consider helping out, and please spread the word to others about the need.

If you have any other questions, feel free to contact the OTRS leadership team members. Thank you! Rjd0060 (talk) 13:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I would be very glad to volunteer for a number of reasons... but I would prefer, if possible, to get some pre-application mentoring. Any takers? :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 04:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Salvidrim. Feel free to send me an email and we can talk! Rjd0060 (talk) 14:25, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Reposted. Rjd0060 (talk) 14:23, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Serbia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2013

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please, protect this page. Anonymous users are writing incorrect content, even vulgar. Thanks in advance. --Павлица (talk) 18:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection‎.--В и к и T 19:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

It is now protected.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Histmerge needed

The Mullets and The Mullets (TV series) had the same content, but somehow, the former got hijacked for a dab page, and the content on the show moved to The Mullets (TV series). Can an admin please do a histmerge, and put everything at title The Mullets, since there's nothing else by that name? Thanks. Ten Pound Hammer • 02:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done Prodego 02:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I am Redux

Dear all,

Forgive me for posting these lines in the Administrators' Noticeboard, but I figured there would be no other place suitable for this that would provide the visibility I thought would be desirable. I chose the "general" area because this (thank goodness) does not require any specific Admin action.

Anyone who has not been on this project for a long, long time will probably never have seen me around. I have been absent for a long, long time. I left without previous notice or goodbyes, which is something I have always regretted. For whatever it's worth, I am sorry for that.

At one time, I held the flags of Admin (elected in 2005, if memory serves me well) and Bureaucrat on the English-language Misplaced Pages and Steward of the Wikimedia Foundation, in addition to having the Oversight and Checkuser permissions on the English-language Misplaced Pages. Since my final departure, in July of 2009, all of those flags have been removed. I support those removals completely and I have no intention of seeking to regain any of those flags.

I had intended to return to the project on several occasions exactly to relinquish the tools, since I felt I had lost the right to have them on account of having left the project and, most importantly, because I could no longer consider myself as being up-to-date with policies and going-ons, and thus could not in good conscience presume to retain the community's permission to use the tools. I noticed, however, that the permissions had been removed due to my inactivity, and since it was more than fair that they would be removed, I decided to move on.

But in all this time I never abandoned Misplaced Pages, at least not completely. I return to the website daily for its most precious asset: knowledge; and on occasion I read threads on the Noticeboards to try to keep a minimal understanding of the administration of the website.

I return now to say that I would like to contribute once more. Just in a different capacity. I may not have the Administrator tools anymore, but I can perhaps still help with input if it is required. The current Bcrats may also ask any help I can possibly provide... I'm not exactly Cecropia, but maybe my years of experience can still count for something positive.

Thank you all, the current Admins, Bcrats and users for keeping this project alive and well for all these years. Without your selfless dedication, Misplaced Pages would not be what it is now. It is an honor to rejoin you all in this project I have loved for almost 9 years now. Redux (talk) 20:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back. Mlpearc (powwow) 20:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Administrative backlog