Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:50, 18 May 2006

Welcome please sign any messages with ~~~~. Thanks !

Archives

• /Archive 1: to 30 March 2006

How's your Dutch

Can you read : this? If you can, can you see anything that might be added to the article Roman de Fergus? - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) File:UW Logo-secondary.gif 18:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Better than my Gaelic: good enough to get the gist of it. "One fine morning Fergus, the farmer's son, plodding unhappily along behind his father's plough, saw a company of knights ride by." My first impression is no, it doesn't, but I'll check it out. Angus McLellan 18:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. :) Also, if you think this or any other Dutch link makes the article Roman van Ferguut viable, then it would be a great addition (I recently added a section about it to Roman de Fergus). Have a good evening. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) File:UW Logo-secondary.gif 18:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Dál Riata names

The new agreed spelling of Dál Riata suggests that the titles of its rulers ought to be changed, for instance, Aedan of Dalriada to Áedán of Dál Riata. What do you think? - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

For Dál Riatan kings I think I'd prefer "name patronym" or "name byname". It avoids the problem of "was X" king of Dál Riata or just of the Cenél Y, it's how they're presented in most books, and it's how other Gaelic kings are done. If that's the route, I'd like an expert opinion on the orthography, and on diacritics. I'll stick up something on Talk:List of Kings of Dalriada ... Angus McLellan 19:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I agreed with you on that; numbering these guys is silly in any case. Áedán mac Gabráin is much better than Aedan of Dalriada. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I've just put my thoughts on Talk:List of Kings of Dalriada, please correct my mistakes ! Angus McLellan 20:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Have to go on wikibreak again. Will go over it when I get back. Just quickly though, the genitive of Eochaid I think is Echdach. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, Byrne has Echach or Echdach. I'll do more proofreading ! Enjoy your break. I'll keep plodding along with the Early Middle Ages: two steps forward, one step back. Angus McLellan 20:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Pictish Boar

I haven't had a chance to look for pictures etc., yet, but I wanted to thank you for what looks like a very cool link, and for checking that rumour out. Candle-ends 02:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem ! I was curious myself. If I come across anything else I'll let you know. Angus McLellan 08:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

SITEMA

Off on another wikibreak. I'm glad you're taking the time to wait for your books; absolutely no harm in that! I will try to get in a lot more on SITEMAs after my wikibreak; I see my typical careless prose has left a bunch of typos/spelling errors; I will fix them when I get back, finish the Old North section and get to work on other topics (such as the Picts and fortresses). Good work on all those Dark Age articles you're doing. You are almost single handedly saving wikipedia's coverage of Dark Age Britain from mediocrity, and I hope the Scottish[REDACTED] community realizes that you are one of its best content contributors, and that you'll keep contributing for a long time. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

My brother sent me a copy of Celtic Connections, the proceedings of some conference or other, which he picked up at West Port Books (a decent 2nd hand bookshop if you've never been there). It has an article by Koch on the Old North, and some other stuff of interest. I haven't read it yet (reading through Fergus Kelly's most excellent Early Irish Law - thanks very much for bringing it to my attention !). Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I hope you check out the Early Irish Farming book by Fergus Kelly, it's one of the most amazing books I've ever come across in the area. Fergus Kelly is one nerd. Yeah, I got that Celtic Connections book too, they were (and still are) selling a bunch of copies for £5 on the corner of Buccleuch Place and Buccleuch Street. I see you used his map on SITEMA. Koch (pronounced as "Cook") has gained a reputation as a little eccentric (fairly or not, I couldn't say), he is, for instance, virtually the only historian to disbelief that Fortriu was actually a real form. I haven't read that article yet though. I hear also that he thinks the Gododdin was about a British attack on other Britons, which is interesting, but I've never been able to get hold of his The Gododdin of Aneurin: text and context from Dark-Age North Britain, so I don't know which work he argues this in. If you ever find out, please let me know. :) - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Irish Kings, etc

"I would like to tidy up the articles on Irish kings by renaming them in line with the usage in F.J. Byrne's Irish Kings and High-Kings (only done with Niall Glúndub so far, and with the articles I've created lately). Neither of these things will happen overnight. If you have any opinion on these matters, say so at Talk:List of Kings of Dalriada and/or Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (Medieval Gaels) or just shout at me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC) "

Angus, the best place to start with is not with Frank's book but with "A New History of Ireland", which was a multi-disiplinery ten volume series who's final edition only came out last year. In the Irish king lists which I have compiled I have done so according to their usage, and have listed volume nine as my source (see Kings of Connacht, and other lists on my userpage. I would have done much more with many of these kings were it not for my long-term illness. Fergananim 19:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Tip much appreciated ! Thanks. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: Amazingly enough the national library has nine volumes (including I and IX) of the New History of Ireland. I'll try and pop over tomorrow and check them. Thanks again ! Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "having those pages built automatically," consider that AWB can make a list of articles from a text file. I don't know if it works with articles that don't exist yet, but I'm not sure why it wouldn't. Give it a try in the sandbox (as sub-pages) and see what happens. --Craig Stuntz 18:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see your additions to the High King of Ireland page Angus. Another improvement would be to emphasise the difference/overlap between kings of Tara (real early sacral continued as antiquarian/titular), high kings (pseudohistorical concept projected back onto previous figures) and kings of Ireland (real centralisation and internal conquest). The title of the page is really a misnomer for the development of kingship in Ireland through these stages. Also, perhaps a few parallels with developments in near neighbours such as the Capetian internal conquest in 12th century France to counter the long ingrained tendency to imagine a void of central kingship in Ireland as against the supposed existence of such a thing in France since the Merovingians, in England since Alfred, etc which as benchmarks are really not sustainable 195.92.168.168 22:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. For the early stuff I need to read the bits of Byrne (the first six chapters) that I have only ever skipped over). Certainly the Capetians are a case in point as their writ did not run south of Loire for many years, and later Merovingian and later Carolingian authority did not extend far either. England post-1066 is atypical, so why it should be a yardstick for anywhere else - other than the large number of English historians ... - I don't know. Ireland in the 1170s is not, by European standards, especially disunited; rather England is exceptionally centralised due to a series of historical accidents. That's my reading of things anyway. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Combined notes

That seems to be a very common hole in people's undestanding of the Cite.php extension, whih is sad, since it is definitely its most useful feature. As for arrow characters, I think 80% is the limit at which the problem arises, but I think 90% is a bit more legible and condensed enough. Circeus 18:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to put my new, improved understanding of Cite.php to use by changing Penda of Mercia. Thanks again ! Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Sub-Roman Britain

I've just done a re-write of Sub-Roman Britain and was wondering if you could provide any expertise on north Britain for that period. Harthacanute 18:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Irish-Scots

I see from your user page that you are probably as close to an authority on early Scottish history that we have on Misplaced Pages. Regarding your edit of the Irish-Scots article, removing "unhistorical historical note", I agree that the "summary" given was questionable, and represented some of the theories of early Irish migration to Scotland as fact, rather than just one of many theories. However, the idea behind the note was just to summarise that the presence of the Irish, and the effect of Ireland on the history and culture of Scotland long pre-dates the influx of Irish into Scotland in the 18-20th centuries (the main feature of the article), and that there is evidence that the "Scotti" came from Ireland, which I think is generally accepted (and certainly seems to be backed up by other articles on Misplaced Pages). Would it be possible to provide a better summary of these points, rather than just removing reference to them? Without wanting to impinge upon your time (I see you have quite an extensive "to do" list as it is!), could you provide some input in this direction?

If you have the time, I would also appreciate your input on the rather nasty edit war that is going on on the article just now, with (what I believe) to be rather contentious edits being added by one "Brandubh Blathmac", who is easily proved to be a sock-puppet of a very difficult editor, Rms125a@hotmail.com. I'm afraid I may have allowed myself to become too annoyed with this editor, but this is because of the quite disgusting personal abuse I, and many others, have had to suffer from him, as well as the rather outrageous POV he adds to many articles. Again, I do not wish to make claims on your time, but it may or may not be of interest to you.

Thanks, Camillus (talk) 18:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Apologies, I'll try and add something back. There's absolutely no doubt that to benighted foreigners, Gaelic-speaking Scotsmen and Irishmen were one and the same thing, and that the word for both was "Scots" until quite late in the day. So far as I can see, our man Rms125 wouldn't be missed if he took himself off and didn't come back ever again. I've been trying to keep an eye on Irish-Scots - which surely needs an article - but the last couple of times you've beaten me to reverting his nonsense. Cheers ! Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your contribution, Angus. I must say I quite like the comment from 1066 and All That - it can be refreshing to see a bit of humour, particularly clever humour which actually has something to teach us, into an article such as this which can be the target for such contentiousness (is that a word??). Your edit clearly shows that the line between the Scots and Irish is a very vague one - it seems to me to be a common feature of the history of migration, that the idea of "fixed" "indigenous peoples" is just a sham - people were shifting about for millenia, with groups gaining and losing ascendancy, and all the time inter-mingling. (That was all I wanted to reflect in the "Historical note" section). Which is why I get so annoyed by people with fairy-tale mythological pseudo-historical ideas of (for example), the noble "Caledonians" versus the rabid slave-mongering "Hibernians" (I think you know who in particular I'm referring to). Scotland and Ireland are of course, not unique in this - England is very much a "mongrel nation" - but, unlike the MP I heard complaining about this a few years ago, some people see this as being something to celebrate. Thanks again! Camillus (talk) 21:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Campaign to "Shire-ify" Scotland

Please see:

• Talk:Argyll
• Talk:Bute
• Talk:Ross (area)
• Talk:Moray (county)

--Mais oui! 21:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Shire-ification campaigners targetting Template:Scotland counties too. --Mais oui! 09:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Counties of Scotland - Thanks

I realise that you are by no means supporting my arguments here, but I would just like to say that I appreciate your input all the same, because to date coverage of the counties of Scotland has been dominated by one supreme fact: utter ignorance! We have had zero scholarly, sourced input, and I just hope that you and your learned colleagues can add a bit a heck of a lot of weight to Misplaced Pages's presentation of this area.

Questions:

• at what date did the word "county" first start getting used by Scottish people to apply to their own subdivisions? (I understand that it was the early 19th century)
• at what date did the word "shire" first start getting used by Scottish people to apply to their own subdivisions? (I understand that it may have been the 17th century, although earlier usage in Lowland Scotland seems likely)
• where can we obtain a reliable list of sheriffdoms? (that article and topic needs a lot of work)
• where can we get a list of shires which were entitled to send Commissioners to the Parliament of Scotland? (because the names used at List of Constituencies in the Parliament of Scotland at the time of the Union are those used in 1878! and just strike me as being highly unlikely to be accurate.)

I probably have more questions, but you are a busy man.

Finally, History of the subdivisions of Scotland is utterly pathetic at present, and extremely heavily concentrated on the 20th century. A scholarly approach there is also much needed. --Mais oui! 21:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

See note on my talk page. Thanks. Bluegold 14:21, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Book of Kells

I noticed that yoour "ruthless trimming" of the Further reading section was less a trimming and more a wholesale replacement. What were your criteria for selecting which items were on the further reading list? The list previously in the article was based on the bibliography in the Grove Dictionary of Art and the bibliograohy of the Calkins work used as a reference for the article. The works you dropped include the first facsimlile of the Book of Kells and a rather complete discusion of it (Alton and Meyer), the most commonly cited article on the most famous illumination in the book, the Chi Rho page (Lewis), one of the most widely available books on Insular manuscripts (Nordenfalk, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Painting), and an article on the vellum and structure of the book by the man who did the latest rebinding of it (Powell). Dsmdgold 14:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no attachment to the books listed. Please do replace them if you feel that something else would be better. But the previous list was largely useless as "further reading", in which I'd expect to find "books that will tell you more than this article without going into enormous detail". I don't think you can assume everyone has access to a large anglophone library, so 1932 books are not likely to be helpful. Why not just cite the Grove Dictionary of Art ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:53, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I guess we have a different concept of the use of further reading. I look at the Further reading list to be "a list of sources that will tell you more about this article, going into much greater detail, but were not used as sources for this article." I can see the value of having more recent works, but definitive works from the past should be included, as some people do have access to large Anglophone libraries (almost everyone in the United States can get almost any book via through interlibrary loan from their local library. I know, I live in a town of about 30,000 people in Oklahoma.) I don't cite the Grove article because the article is much shorter than ours, but with a good bibliography. Dsmdgold 15:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I would expect the "Further reading" to be much shorter than the "References" section (or at least my articles end up like that), or with a couple of "Further reading" entries if there are no refs. But, having said that, I have reverted the article (no,I haven't; you did it first). Cheers ! Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:18, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

New category: Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Scottish constituencies

Some new categories:

• Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Scottish constituencies - has immediately been nominated for deletion
• Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Glasgow
• Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Paisley

I wonder if you would consider reviewing the CFD debate about the first-mentioned, and contributing your thoughts? It is at:

• Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion#Category:British_MPs

Ta. --Mais oui! 14:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Help

Not much help i can give you regarding "Cath etir Albancho ar aen-rían cur' marbad and Crínan ab Duín Calland & sochaidhe maille fris .i. nae .xx. laech. " im afraid. What little of it i could understand seemed to match up with your own translation of it - i asked my father for his opinion ( hes a celtic studies grad ) and he came up with the same translation pretty much. He did suggest that that <something> might have been "at sea" or something similiar. Thurneysen's Old Irish book gives rian = sea apparently and with that in mind 'ar aen-rían' looks fairly similar to modern Gaelic 'air an cuan' - assuming that the ar aen=air an. Sorry i couldnt be of more help. An Siarach

That was a great deal of help, thanks ! At least I have a second (and third) opinion on the subject, and that makes me much happier. Thanks ! Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Macbeth of Scotland

Rewrite 'a bit' ??? A great improvement (and takes it way out of my competence). Well done. ColinFine 23:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind comment, but it probably has a great many errors of fact, grammar and style. Please don't hesitate to edit ruthlessly whenever you find any of them :-) Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Dunkeld

Well, I don't know anything about Scottish dynasties, so I don't know how accurate those names are, but I will say one thing...just because something is a modern invention doesn't mean we shouldn't use it. If other historians divide up the dynasties like that, then that is what we should do as well. This is not the place to overturn mistaken historiographical assumptions. Adam Bishop 11:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think many historians actually do that; they seem as much an invention of wiki users as amateur (but published) "historians". The dynasty system on the Pictish king page seems to have been invented by wiki users. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Irish language

I looked for the 25,000 claim in the online PDF of the US Census, but couldn't find it; I am curious as to how it was conducted. BTW, the Irish nationalist User:No More POV Please has stuck a fact tag on my claim that Gaelic was known as "Scottish" until the 16th century. I don't have access to many books ATM, but I'm sure a reference for that can be found in the Oxford Companion to Scottish History. I know you have that; can you check out the article on the "Scots language" and add a reference? Much appreciated. Good work on Macbeth BTW. Those Scottish kings articles are truly shocking, but if you're ever looking to do work on another king (aside from Máel Coluim III), then Dub of Scotland is badly in need of treatment. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You are part of a conspiracy Angus, see User talk:No More POV Please. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The other day it was a cabal, today it's grown into a conspiracy. That's progress. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you think it is likely that Bluegold (talk · contribs) and No More POV Please (talk · contribs) are the same person? - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It's possible, although the evidence is circumstantial, and it wouldn't matter much if they were the same person anyway. But I don't doubt that User:No More POV Please and User:Bel air, the WikiProject POV person, are one and the same: compare this and this. User:Sea horn, who's edited Harp is another, see this. But User:Bluegold could be a sockpuppet rather than a puppetmaster. Interestingly, Talk:Harp, Talk:Dál Riata and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle Ages have all had edits where single quotes were double escaped (i.e. \\\'), evidently some hopeless script kiddie. But, as I said, I don't think it's of much importance. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It is important because they're use multiple voices to gain strength on article edits. Good post btw, can you repost it HERE. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Wars in Ireland

I've being doing some long-overdue edits to Edward Bruce, particularly under the headings "The Invasion of Ireland" and "Arrival and the Campaign of 1315". I began it because the original article was hopelessly wrong in many places, but am now wondering if what I am writing would be better suited as an article in its own right on the Irish Bruce wars? Fergananim 19:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Cite.php Q

Had a quick question about this referencing style, since you seem to have a good understanding of it. I think you may have answered it on your user page:

If you are using Cite.php, you can combine repeated refs by adding a "name" - so the first is and the subsequent ones are .

...but I can't exactly figure out what that means. What I want to do is make it so I can reference things "out of order"; that is, if after note 3 I want to reference note 1 again, then I can just use that same note without having to add another note to the list (otherwise the referencing becomes a list of the same sources being repeated over and over, which is not only unnecessary and repetitive but bloats the article text size). Everyking 05:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Took a little work, but I figured it out. Thanks. Everyking 03:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

re: Escaped quotes and blocks of anons

84.245.75.24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is already indef-blocked as an open proxy. I have just indef-blocked the other one since it backslashes its apostrophes. If you come across an IP like this, you can either ping a friendly admin's talk page, or post at WP:AN/I explaining things. They do not always triple backslash incidentally; often it's just one. -Splash 13:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Ref converter

You are receiving this message because you are on the Ref converter spamlist

I'm working on a new beta version of Ref converter to properly handle {{ref label}} and multiple refs to the same note. It is located here. I'd appreciate any feedback or bug notes on this new version. So far it tentatively handles ref labels and I will be adding multiple ref support soon. Once I think it's good enough it's going to overwrite wikirefs.pl and become the main version. --Cyde Weys 03:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ray of sunshine

Everything seems fine to me...who did you upset? You can't please everyone all the time, I guess...I wouldn't worry about it. Adam Bishop 23:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Help with a topographic map

Creating the map is not a problem, and I have topo data for all of the UK, so the southern and western boundaries are no bother. I have thrown together a quick test image to see if it is the kind of thing you are wanting. Do you want Shetland included? The choice of colours and resolution are whatever suits your needs best. I just chose those colours for the test to give an idea how it would roughly look, and resolution can go to the super numbers that I have previously uploaded (file size isn't so much of an issue when it is only 4 colour, as the test image is 1400x1000 but it is only 80kb!). If there are other things you would like on it let me know and I will see if it is possible or not (I am currently doing a good bit of behind the scenes testing of using PD maps to derive map data (settlements, roads, rivers etc) SFC9394 13:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure Shetland and the Outer Hebrides can easily be included. Are you happy with the colours and its general appearance? If so then I will go ahead and create a full one with polish (hollowing out Lough Neagh for example) Do you want a land height key on the map? SFC9394 14:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have uploaded the final image to the commons at Image:Scotland Land Use by height.png and have swapped it in place of the test here, everything seems to be fine with it, I hope it is useful to you in article work! If you need anything altered on it let me know. SFC9394 15:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome, if you need any more maps created just let me know. Best Wishes, SFC9394 16:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Ref converter 2.0

You are receiving this message because you are on the Ref converter spamlist

With bated breath after much work I am proud to announce that Ref converter 2.0 has arrived. This new version properly deals with all ref labels and note labels, as well as multiple refs linking to the same note. There's also some miscellaneous bug fixes. I had to rewrite a good portion of the Ref converter from scratch, but it was worth it! The older version is no longer accessible online. Please give the new version a whirl, and of course, if you run into any bugs, leave a bug report! --Cyde Weys 04:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Broken redirect

Hi. On March 4, you created the page Badh with the content "#REDIRECT ]." (You'd be surprised how often this happens!) I am unable to determine what the correct target of the redirect should be (Badbh? I'm not sure.) Please fix the redirect link if possible. Thanks. --Russ Blau (talk) 13:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Ref converter update

You are receiving this message because you are on the Ref converter spamlist

Ref converter has been updated once again. It now takes care of Harvard references (I didn't even realize they existed). I'm still looking for input on how best to handle {{ref num}}s. I've also added some additional sanity checks to the code that should catch more potential problems. As always, if you run into anything going wrong, leave a bug report! --Cyde Weys 09:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

William Murdoch

Hi Angus, Feel free to nominate this as a good article, hopefully it'll pass. I am planning to make a few changes suggested by the Peer review but I don't have any time right now & don't expect to do it any time soon, I don't think they'd compromise the article in any event. AllanHainey 11:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Epidii

Hi there. I remain unconvinced that the article Epidii does not contradict itself. The name is clearly Brythonic and not Goidelic; how then does the referenced author resolve this contradiction when claiming that the people there were Goidelic speaking at the time? I agree that at a later period, the inhabitants were Goidelic speaking - but by then, they were no longer Epidii. --Nantonos 21:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Norse-Gaels

A user is adding what I regard as nonsense to the article Norse-Gaels. I am on 3RR for now, so can't revert him for now. Can you review and perhaps tell me if I am wrong to think as I do. Regards. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, don't be his tool and get in the middle. Don't take my side either. Take Misplaced Pages's side and that of professional historians, university professors. I'm just repeating what I have read and seen in books, or online. If he wants "his article" to obey his perceptions, then the article will stay limited forever. There is contemporary evidence of the Norse-Gaels' contributions to society and it is not "locked in the past", so to speak. I bet this editor would not object to the perpetuation of this ethnic stereotype in Scotch, Manx, Irish or Faroese lands. I daresay that he may be an ethnocentric bigot who can't agree with a "cohesive Celto-Germanic community" that includes England, begging the question on whether he is a Scottish nationalist. Misplaced Pages is a place to recite knowledge, not push POV agendas. IP Address 22:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to push any points in the article, just on the talk page in order to clarify the supposed ignorance of the other user and his newfound pal who enjoy mocking me. Why is there an objection to Richmondshire? The Bretons destroyed or corrupted the original framework and made it into their own, but please read up on the history of Richmondshire and its original people pre-1066. This district was exactly the same as shown on maps for the Norse-Gaels settling there! How is that so hard to understand? The Quakerism via Albion's Seed was merely to point out that not all traces of it died out with the Bretons or Normans. Surely, Richmond is a cultural backwater today. When there were Vikings who took over the Anglian district of Gilling...did Winchester give a rat's arse? The answer is that there is a convoluted set of circumstances which have blurred the region. I told somebody from Newbury in Berkshire that my family's from Wensleydale and she called it a CHEESE! WTF? Don't you see the ignorance I'm faced with? Please, go to school. IP Address 23:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The Norwegian colonisation of Northern England was inseparable from the Gaelic syncretism. There is a reason why a king of Norway is called Magnus Barelegs and if you did more research, you would see the maps and atlases showing the settlement patterns. You would see how York and Dublin had a long process of unity which became fruition under Olaf III Guthfrithson and it had an economic as well as social community. Are you stubbornly opposed to works of Oxford University Press, or professional historians of the Viking Age? Don't let present perceptions get in your way of learning how things were. Most people don't know that Norway went on Crusade either, but it happened. Please, educate yourself before judging. I don't like prejudice. IP Address 23:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Angus, would you care to see my newest edition of the Norse-Gaels article? It is more relevant and to the point, than what I composed before. IP Address 19:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your most recent edit. IP Address 19:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

My referencing the Kessler site was not to draw on the specific data, but to show that a multitude of sources show the same general idea (so, it is not strange) in regards to a Norse-Gael community all around the Irish Sea and its hinterland beyond the shores--as well as the (presently) Scottish Islands. I agree with you, that Kessler takes stances which are based more in approximates than definitives. IP Address 20:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, it is not strange to consider this. Such interactions continue to be source of common culture in Northern England today. That is why the Archdiocese of Liverpool exists, for example. IP Address 20:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Ref converter links

You are receiving this message because you are on the Ref converter spamlist

Ref converter has been updated once again. This time I have created "WikiLinks", which automatically generates a fresh list of articles with old reference styles that need converting. Just run WikiLinks, open up a bunch of the resultant links it give in separate tabs, and go through each tab one-by-one and convert those references. --Cyde Weys 06:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

RE: Alt Clut

Hey. I was keeping that on the quiet until I'd done all of them. I've got a revamped list which I'll paste on the relevant page once I'm done. Your tweaking would be appreciated, not only for content, but I am a notorious typo-dumper. The later Archie Duncan book is inaccessible to me; I've never got around to buying it because of its price, but it does seem to have made a large impact on Scottish historiography, so it'd probably be worth it. The MacQuarrie article is very useful; he does much of the scholarly leg-work, but I've never been that impressed with MacQuarrie as a scholar. He builds his king-list from the Harleian genealogies (and there he is not alone), but never mentions that most of them are not attested as kings. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Owains of Strathclyde !

Woops ! There are several Owains. I made Owain of Strathclyde a dab page. We're missing Owain the Bald (Eugenius Calvus) of the C11th, otherwise we're ok. He'd be Eógan II of Strathclyde by analogy. Sorry for any confusion. Somehow I missed your question earlier. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

That's cool, I started dabbing to the appropriate Owains on pages that linked to Owain of Strathclyde.--Cúchullain /c 20:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll have done Owen the Bald in a few hours. I need to do Máel Coluim I first though. BTW, does Duncan mention anything about Máel Coluim II? I have Oram and Broun arguing for his existence, so a Duncan reference would seal the deal on his article. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey. Thanks for all that info. Very useful. I've done all the kings up to Máel Coluim II. I would do the latter too, but I can't find my David I book (by Oram). Broun's article has interesting stuff. You might wanna consult it for your Strathclyde article. He argues that Strathclyde was destroyed because of the Norse-Gaels/Galwegians, with some part of it coming into Scotland; he even puts the idea that Prince David conquered it from the Norse-Gaels with the help of his Norman patron. BTW, there is a new, quite awesome book out called Viking Empires, partly written by Oram, which has interesting stuff on the 10th and 11th century, similar to the Broun stuff. I haven't properly consulted it yet, as I just glanced at it in the book store. I'm gonna order it. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism Patrol

That's the spirit! Take care, Mackensen (talk) 18:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Viceroys of New Spain

Thanks so much for the kind words, Angus. I have three very good sources in Spanish, and I've just been reading those, then writing new articles in English. Unfortunately, though, my sources cover only Mexican viceroys. What information there is on the viceroys of Peru was already there before I added information, or was sketchily mentioned in passing in my sources. I would like to write on them too, but there is no more about them in Mexico (where I live) then there is in the U.S. (where I'm from). Oh well, maybe I'll get to Peru sometime. Rbraunwa 17:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• Please tell me what you think of this: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rationales to impeach George W. Bush (3rd nomination).
• You can leave your message on this talk page here.

Armenian Genocide

I am surpised that this article is not protected from edit wars. It's a hot button subject. - Sal 09:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that your recent edit on the Armenian Genocide opposition section was fair though I think the comment that few of these historians considered as authorities is highly disputable. But I am Ok with letting the facts speak for themselves and I'm not going to dispute this charecterization. There's small typo in your edit: In the second line "cconsider" needs to be corrected. I did so many recent edits, I hesitate do another one. If you find the time, article might benefit from fixing this typo. Thanks for contributing to the discussion. Best Deepblue06

Thank you!

Hello, Angusmclellan, and thank you for vote on my recent RfA! With a final vote of 62/2/4, I have now been entrusted with the mop, bucket and keys. As I acclimate myself to my new tools, feel free to let me know how you believe I might be able to use them to help the project. Thanks again! RadioKirk talk to me 05:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The Viking Secret

There are certainly plenty of articles en Français, certainly, and yes, it is listed on Amazon.FR (but not ~.com or ~.co.uk): - try repeating the Google search in English only. With that additional restriction (which was mentioned in my original post, note) the only mentions are, quelle surprise, mirrors of the now deleted Misplaced Pages section article on Vikings, and there are only a very few of them. With respect, I disagree with the view expressed elsewhere on the AfD that a book written in French that has not been translated into English, nor rated any mention anywhere on the internet on English (taking Google as a pretty good proxy for "the internet") can somehow be notable on English Misplaced Pages. Feel free to add an article to the French Misplaced Pages, if that is your wont, but as the consensus (which I don't understand you to dispute), even from the author of the article, is that this is "pseudohistory" - i.e., bunk - it seems difficult to divine a possible conceptual reason for notability in English for this article. ElectricRay 00:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

MacWilliams & MacHeths

You beat me to it. The thing preventing me doing these articles was that I still haven't worked out the early MacHeths, since Oram says something completely different from everyone else, but doesn't resolve the problems he creates. BTW, can you give me a few days to do Harald Maddadsson; I got the SHR article and other stuff in order to write it. BTW, since you're now taking an interest in the High Medieval stuff (the most fascinating period in Scottish history in my opinion), do you have any thoughts of changing the titles of the Mormaers from X n of Y, to X n, Earl of Y. Totally against the X, n Earl of Y, because it is totally inappropriate for lords of this kind. I based my titling of these articles on the French and German aristocracy on wiki, where X n of Y is common. - 12:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Calgacus (talk • contribs) .

Hey thanks. I came across a great book (dating to 1914 however), that finally enables me to make lists and articles on Scotland's medieval bishops and bishoprics, so I think I'd better get engaged on that. Therefore, feel free to do Harald; although I will of course get around to it soon if you do not. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

If you wanna do the MacHeths, by all means. I've already sorta written an article on Máel Coluim, but I gave up on it after reading Oram's treatment. Here's a quote from Orderic Vitalis in case you don't have access to it: "But Máel Coluim, base-born son of Alexander, affected to snatch the kingdom from his uncle , and fought against him two sufficiently fierce battles. But David, who was loftier in understanding and in power and wealth, conquered him and his followers"<ref>Orderic Vitalis, ''Historia Ecclesiastica'', VIII. 20; tr. A.O. Anderson, ''Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers: AD 500 to 1286'', (London, 1908), p. 158.</ref> Wiki will prolly be better served if I concentrate on building up lists of bishops for now, as these lists are extremely difficult to get hold of, and are not, so far as I am aware, available anywhere on the net. BTW, if you happen to come across any info about obscure pre-Davidian Celtic bishops of any Scottish see, drop me a note. :) And yeah, that's looks like it might be him. I'm gonna just leave him alone though, best to let sleeping dogs lie; he is, besides, a distraction for fruitful work. Regards, - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Angus, you might be interested in looking at or modifying this page: Mormaer Beth. Also, have you come across any comments on the quite interesting fact that the Mormaers of Ross after Ferchar bore only two names, William and Hugh (Aodh). - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

What, in summary, is the other evidence for Áed? This Mormaer Beth on its own is pretty spurious. Is it just the later Máel Coluim's patronymic. I'm not sure people have theories about this guy under control: check out fr:Angus Mac Aedh and, especially, fr:Aedh mormaer de Moray. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm still confused as to why Áed could be the father of Óengus, as well as the father of Máel Coluim, and witness two charters under David. I've been distracted with football and bishops though, so haven't given it my full attention. I feel pretty bad making you do the Harald Maddadsson article, since I have all the resources for it. If you get the opportunity, you should consult Barbara Crawford's "The Earldom of Caithness and the Kingdom of Scotland, 1150­-1266" in Essays on the Nobility of Medieval Scotland, and Patrick Topping, "Harald Maddadson, Earl of Orkney and Caithness, 1139-1206," in The Scottish Historical Review, 62, 1983. They might help, although the works you have are definitely enoguh to do a decent article. BTW, have you found a decent list of Orkney earls anywhere? BTW, the bishops work is extraordinarily tedious; I can't wait to finish it, so I can get on with normal articles. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

That site you linked seems like a safe enough basis for a list. BTW, do you think it would consitute original research to title Earl "Gilbert" (mac Gilla Brigte) "Gilla Brigte, Earl of Orkney"? It seems to be pretty obvious that was his name rendered "Gilbert" by scribal convention (and there was no Gilbert in the Angus or Orkney family), but I've never come across any historian using this name. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

Hi Angus, Yeah, I probably should have stayed out of it. I removed the totally disputed tag and then went back in and added the POV tag as a compromise which is rediculous. Isn't this where King Solomon splits the baby in half. I married an Armenian so I hear about these things. I am considered an "odar"(sp)(outsider) so resolution of this topic has as much chance as Jews and Arabs kissing and making up, imho. I am sure the tags will get switched back and forth a bunch of times today anyways, just watch. Its funny how Wiki's "prime directive" is NPOV but you can't swing a dead cat without finding serious POV edit wars going on in here. Human Beings, go figure :). Cheers!--Tom 14:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It should not be a question of kissing and making up or of presenting (discredited and untrue) second opinions. It should be a matter of presenting the truth. This is an Encyclopedia - is it not?

Main Entry: en·cy·clo·pe·dia Variant(s): also en·cy·clo·pae·dia /in-"sI-kl&-'pE-dE-&/ Function: noun Etymology: Medieval Latin encyclopaedia course of general education, from Greek enkyklios + paideia education, child rearing, from paid-, pais child -- more at FEW

a work that contains information on all branches of knowledge or treats comprehensively a particular branch of knowledge usually in articles arranged alphabetically often by subject.

I assume that "knowledge" is in reference to truth & fact...not to whatever some editor can make up on the spot...

And in alowing this you are supporting denial of genocide. Does this make you feel all warm and tingly inside? Have a nice day. --THOTH 17:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal Attacks

Oh so the following remarks by your dear protégé Eupator are not personal attacks: "I'm not sure if English is your first language or whether you have cognitive issues but the meer suggestion that a new user such as yourself that jumps into controversial topics might perhaps be a sockpuppet is not only not a personal attack but a daily occurance on wikipedia. Fear not, this is not turkey or mongolia. You are innocent until proven otherwise.--Eupator 15:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)" and another personal attack posted today on the talk page of Armenian Legion: "That bullcrap was merely copy pasted from already discredited propaganda websites. The scoundrel didn't even bother to paraphrase that baloney.--Eupator 17:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)" and another "So Lucifer, you mean to tell me that in this freedom of speech paradise anyone can go and burn the turkish flag in ankara like we can do here in the US with our flag? Can the average Joe deface an image of your God ataturk like we can do in Europe or the States with our leaders images and whatnot? Go feed your crap to someone else troll and enough of this irrelevant spamming. This is not a discussion forum.--Eupator 18:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)" At least be honest and dont just selectively chose who to accuse of personal attacks! Lutherian 20:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

3RR doesn't apply

I can revert vandalism ten billion times a day, especially from anons.--Eupator 20:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

-Inanna-

Hi, I saw your message on THOTH's talk page. I knew Inanna, and trust me on this, it isn't her. Probably some of the anon's are our friend Lutherian, but not Inanna. I'll let you know when she comes back. —Khoikhoi 05:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree they definity are not Inanna, I am pretty much sure that Deepblue is Torque and that they are actually three friends working in cohort. Fad (ix) 02:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Scottish History

Just in case you have not been back I left a message for you on my talk page. Regards Rcpaterson 22:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

personal attack to fadix

I was actually willing to contact you about this. Please take a look at our history. I have tried so hard to close personal talk with this guy so many so many times. I declared i wont do any personal talk. I have sent him posts in good will to close the talk. he claimed that I am a turk undercover. I said I am not Then he just got stuck to a Phd issiue. He claimed that I am a liar. what is that? What it has to do with the topic. Lastly he is in the internet searching my Thesis to find my name. for what? Searching a persons name in a discussion page? This is terorising and harassment!!! he has a history on blaming people of being a stock puppet, Turk undercover, attacker. At least 3 or 4 people heard the same stories from this guy. he is doing that intentional to scare people of this page. and this is not the only page. All pages related to Armenia.

Enough is Enough

Kick one of us out of this page!!!! Neurobio 13:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

by the way just look two paragraphs up to see what I mean. here in your page fadix makes the same claims abut another person Neurobio 13:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

so this is hopeless. As you can see i am very new here. I started editing without really reading the guidelines. which is actually a mistake of course. initially I just looked at the "edit" page and copied the signature from other users. then I figured that on the top of each page it is written how to sign. You warned me and then i learned how to sign. the tracks are there that from that day on. I leave a valid sinature. neurobio 14:15, 18 May 2006 (UTC) jut like that!

Do you really think that I care about your name or who you are? I told you, the point here is you having lied rather than you being a Turk, or what have you? I will never go as down as to make threats about one user and that you percieved that this was the cases, and this new member posting someones name in the talk page as a counterattack is at the very least suspicious. For a newbie, this 3 or 4 people that heard about the same story, you seem to knew so perfectly all those baseless claims against my person circulating. You should be and are of course aware that sock users involved in the Armenian genocide page are abound and that some administrators have already been warned and are aware of the situation, so don't expect any decision against me, for the simple reason that many have been witness of what happened there and that there are as well Turks who are ready to support me, believe it or not. Fad (ix) 15:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

1. ^ Ref to XXX.