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Revision as of 15:36, 14 October 2013

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#smwwiki panel

		The Real Life Barnstar
		Thanks again for appearing on the discussion panel at Social Media Week NYC; it was a great conversation and I'm glad you were part of it! WWB Too (Talk · COI) 12:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Why thank you! It was a productive presentation/conversation I think, and gave me an excuse to go to the Big City which is always fun. I must say that it was big of you to invite me, given our contention in the past. Herostratus (talk) 14:03, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages:Op Privilege Policy

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Mindjet

Lynn Fontanne

Hi. Just wanted to thank you for your objective common-sense support for my editing on the Fontanne page. I know most of what was contentious has been rv and I am fine with that. Just wish someone had advised me on my talk page of the ORN colloquy, so I could at least have participated. Yours, Quis separabit? 19:02, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

COI questions

Hey Herostratus, I'm wondering if you think this draft request for comment would prove fair and useful? User:Ocaasi/coiquestions. Cheers, Ocaasi 18:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Jenna Rose for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Jenna Rose is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jenna Rose (4th nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Rogerthat94 (talk) 10:48, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Er, OK, but what has that to do with me? --Herostratus (talk) 11:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Looks like the editor was just having some trouble figuring out the template. CorporateM (Talk) 00:18, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:WikiProject Integrity/doc

A tag has been placed on Template:WikiProject Integrity/doc, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done for the following reason:

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Misplaced Pages criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that your page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Herostratus (talk) 02:03, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Mindjet, WP:OWN, &c.

Hey there, I've now also added another comment at Talk:Mindjet. Short version, on reading your follow-up I think I agree with your point about why CorporateM's edit was non-withdrawable. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 13:59, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

COI template

I have initiated a discussion at Village Pump Proposals regarding applying Template:COI editnotice more broadly, in order to provide advice from WP:COI directly onto the article Talk page. Your comment, support or opposition is invited. Cheers. CorporateM (Talk) 19:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Article Feedback deployment

Hey Herostratus; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thx

Thanks for the star! Regards, --Klemen Kocjancic (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 14:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

File:Aj weberman dylan book cover.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Aj weberman dylan book cover.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 14:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

WP on BP - Potential Blog Post

I've been following the 'Arturo on BP' saga intently, and I'm writing a draft for a blog post/article over at Wikipediocracy. Naturally the emphasis would be on the conflict on Misplaced Pages, between SlimVirgin, Silver seren, and yourself, among others. Would you be against me using a few quotes from you? I'd show you (and the others) a draft before publication.→StaniStani  03:41, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, sure. Right, did you Google "Arturo at BP"? Wow. I don't need to see a draft, thanks. Herostratus (talk) 03:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Awww, I was looking for your post but all there is is something about some Norwegian mook. Anyway, while I don't need to see a draft, could I make a request? If possible, I'd like to be characterized as a "deranged ideologue" (even better would be "evil deranged ideologue" but that's asking a lot) if possible. I'd prefer that to "ignorant thug" if that's OK. "Relentless annoying scold" would be OK as a compromise. What would be really great if the editors aligned with my general position could be described as my "minions" or "henchmen". I've always wanted henchmen (or minions). Herostratus (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey, how about this for a lede: "If you hear a constant high-pitched whining coming from your computer, there's probably nothing wrong with your machine. It's just Herostratus or one of his crypto-Trotskyite comrades with another of their incessant anti-free-enterprise screeds..." Herostratus (talk) 17:46, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

On the off-chance you're reading this, and if you should happen to think I'm trying to win your heart with devil-may-care insouciance and self-deprecating humor, perhaps this will disabuse you: re this quote from you "Perhaps this site needs to destroy his anonymity. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not. Discuss." here's a pro tip: if you're "not sure if that's a good idea or not", that may be nature's way of telling you that you're devoid of intelligence or character. I sure hope your little piece, if you actually produce it, takes special care to eviscerate me by name. I'd be ashamed if people like you didn't loathe me. Herostratus (talk) 08:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Integrity

Hi Herostratus, I've recently updated the article Conflict of interest editing on Misplaced Pages to include the recent incidents from 2012 and 2013. I also added a brief paragraph on WikiProject Integrity and rephrased the descriptions of WikiProject Cooperation and WikiProject Integrity in the introduction. I'd appreciate your review to ensure they're fair. Cheers, Ocaasi 19:54, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

File:Dentyne ice mints.jpg listed for deletion

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Please comment on Talk:Michael Gambon

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Article notability notification

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Tone it down?

Would you consider softening that a bit, for the sake of dramalessness? There are other, more appropriate fora for calling people names. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather not. The man deliberately "votes" for options in order to damage the Misplaced Pages for personal amusement and says so openly. I'm not really calling him "names". He's a troll and glories in it, so we're both on the same page here, I think. He may have other, positive, qualities that I'm not aware of. Herostratus (talk) 18:58, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) My hopefully helpful suggestion would be to, rather than state the referenced point, just link to discussion where the point is made and consensed by others, or to the place on Wikipediocracy where the point can be seen by the reader. But I understand your point. --Lexein (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Should we be linking to a "place on Wikipediocracy" where a person who openly admits to wanting to damage Misplaced Pages as much as possible presents his attacks? My feeling is that we shouldn't. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiProject Breakfast

Hello, Herostratus. You are invited to join WikiProject Breakfast, a WikiProject and resource dedicated to improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of breakfast-related topics. To join the project, just add your name to the member list. Northamerica1000 22:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Wales talk page

I appreciate your support of my position on the Wales talk page and calling out another editor for strange and unsupported comments. However, in the process you seem to have inadvertently inserted a link within my comment. See . This was last week and the discussion has now been archived to http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_129#Anyone_interested_in_vetting_the_BP_and_Chevron_additions.3F I was going to go back into the archive and just remove it, but then I realized you may have wanted to make some other use of that link. Thanks again and I wish you success in this very frustrating and probably futile struggle. Coretheapple (talk) 17:20, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

That is weird, about the link. Obviously a mistake of some sort, sorry. Herostratus (talk) 02:26, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Dang, I came here looking for an argument involving the article Wales. Please leave me a talkback when you become involved in such an argument, as I will wish to disagree with you strongly. Thank you. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem, Herostratus, I fixed. Coretheapple (talk) 17:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

AFT5 re-enabled

Hey Herostratus :). Just a note that the Article Feedback Tool, Version 5 has now been re-enabled. Let us know on the talkpage if you spot any bugs. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology closed

An arbitration case regarding sexology has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all articles dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g., hebephilia).
2. User:Jokestress and User:James Cantor are banned from interacting with each other, commenting on and/or commenting about each other including their professional lives, works and on-wiki activities. This applies to all namespaces, but excludes dispute resolution that explicitly relates to both parties.
3. User:Jokestress is indefinitely banned from the topic of human sexuality, including biographical articles.

For the Arbitration Committee, Ks0stm 13:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Discuss this

April 2013

Please do not be disruptive and remove the tags. I made my case on the talk page, I've filled the WP:BURDEN requirement. They should stay until the issues are addressed. I removed the warning, because this is the first time and you didn't seem clear on it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Alright, calm down. No one is being disruptive. My reading of WP:BURDEN shows "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds... material." (emphasis in original). WP:BLP also has useful discussion of the matter. As far as I know this applies to tags also; I'm willing to be instructed otherwise. Assuming that you're correct on the merits, you should be able to demonstrate your case. Why not do so? A successful way to do this might well be to offer your improved versions of the lede and/or specific sections or passages on the talk page. Another way would be simply to edit the article to improve it. Specific suggestions are more likely to be accepted than general criticism.. Herostratus (talk) 01:33, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Kenton

Geese you must have spend a lot of time writing that. Skimmed it.

It just doesn't belong. I've edited hundreds of similar jazz articles and it just makes no sense to have a list of his compositions there that NO ONE WILL READ. Cosprings (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I prefer to keep conversations in one place, and replied on your talk page. Herostratus (talk) 18:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

You know you're right, I lack ACUITY.

If you wrote me 1,000 words of nonsense, how much of it am i supposed to read?

Your way of thinking is flawed, despotic and immutable, so I'll leave you alone.

Cheers.

Cosprings (talk) 20:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion notice

You participated in the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (people)#RFC-birth date format conformity when used to disambiguate so I thought you might want to comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (people)#Birth date format conformity .28second round.29.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Update on service award licenses

Hi Herostratus, just wanted to let you know I updated the license tag on one of your service award images. I hope this is OK; I just want to be really sure there is no copyright threat to our WikiSOO Burba Badge! Thanks, -Pete (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Amy's Baking Company for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Amy's Baking Company is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amy's Baking Company until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 19

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XFD debate over images of deceased people in articles about their deaths

Hi! Please see Misplaced Pages:Possibly unfree files/2013 May 20 - It is an XFD debate over images of deceased people in articles about their deaths WhisperToMe (talk) 17:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Talkback message from Tito Dutta

Tito Dutta (contact) 15:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Everything Tastes Better with Bacon

Hi there, Herostratus, I hope you're doing well. :)

You previously helped out with a peer review for this article, it's now up for a 2nd consideration at FAC at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Everything Tastes Better with Bacon/archive2.

Your input would be appreciated at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Everything Tastes Better with Bacon/archive2, — Cirt (talk) 19:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Frédéric Fontang

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Kohs

I made my point in fewer words than you did yours. Carrite (talk) 02:55, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Ya sure did. Problem is, I'm right and you're wrong. Herostratus (talk) 03:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks much

Thanks much for your helpful comments at Talk:Children's interests (rhetoric).

Particularly your suggestion about the model at You kids get off my lawn!.

You kids get off my lawn! is a good model for moving Children's interests (rhetoric) to simply, "Think of the children".

Therefore, I have adjusted the move proposal, accordingly.

Thanks again, — Cirt (talk) 03:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, sure. Herostratus (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK

Regarding your message at Allen3's talk page, the process is not opaque at all if you would have taken the time to do a little bit of reading. The DYK project page explicitly explains how DYK nominations get processed: Misplaced Pages:Did you know#How a DYK nomination makes its way to the main page. As for who makes the "final" edit that gets the DYK onto the main page, it was not Allen3, it was whatever administrator moved the hook into the queue (as explained at the page I linked). As for where I explained the rationale behind my decision to approve the hook, it's in the diff that you already found. rʨanaɢ (talk) 19:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

OK. I've been called away for a couple of days and will respond in more detail soonest. Thank you for the info. Herostratus (talk) 18:18, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

RfC part II

Hi. You participated in RfC on Talk:Frédéric Fontang. Per the advice of closing admin "This result sets no precedent for similar articles. To address the other articles, I would suggest a broadly-worded RfC" I have confirmed the title of the second RfC addressing the other 105 affected articles with the closing admin and that follow on broadly-worded RfC is at Misplaced Pages:Requests for Comment/Duplicate name in basic ASCII character set. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

File:Alexei Davidov.JPG missing description details

• File:Alexei Davidov.JPG

is missing a description and/or other details on its image description page. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors make better use of the image, and it will be more informative to readers.

Please comment on Talk:BP

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2nd Annual Wikimedia New England General Meeting

You are invited to the 2nd Annual Wikimedia New England General Meeting, on 20 July 2013 in Boston! We will be talking about the future of the chapter, including GLAM, Wiki Loves Monuments, and where we want to take our chapter in the future! EdwardsBot (talk) 10:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive behavior

I'm a fairly new editor, but I'm confident that independent experienced editors will find Jmh649's actions significantly harmful to Misplaced Pages.

Please see his recent edits in Cancer (second paragraph), the associated Talk, and his probable collusion with a few other editors (admin or steward?).

Please review the current edit by Zad68, and compare his text to his reference text.]  : "Approximately five to ten percent of cancers are entirely hereditary." The citation says essentially the opposite.

FYI, I have been solicited, and declined, to be a paid editor. I immediately hid my email address from view.32cllou (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK-Good Article Request for Comment

Did you know ... that since you expressed an opinion on the GA/DYK proposal last year, we invite you to contribute to a formal Request for Comment on the matter? Please see the proposal on its subpage here, or on the main DYK talk page. To add the discussion to your watchlist, click this link. Regards, Gilderien Chat|What I've done22:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, would you like to elaborate your rationale in the General Discussion section?--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 09:41, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Luigi di Bella

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David Marchick

Hi again, Herostratus. This afternoon I posted some criticisms of the David Marchick article on its Talk page, here. Last year, after I'd finished working on the page, you raised some interesting questions about how to describe him. Then another editor expanded it dramatically in a way I don't think fits Misplaced Pages guidelines. If you have any thoughts to contribute there, I'd appreciate it. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 19:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey there Herostratus, thanks again for your comments on the David Marchick article. Since no one else has commented yet, I just reached out to WP:Biography in the hopes of generating more discussion (which you may have already noticed, given the new notification systems). I'm definitely leaning towards implemented some changes based on your recommendation, but would like to hear from a few others before we start trimming back Uzma Gamal's work. More soon. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll respond there. Herostratus (talk) 15:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey again Herostratus, just wanted to let you know that I've now taken your "scalpel" approach to David Marchick's article. I've posted a note with the details of my changes at Talk:David Marchick, as well as an updated draft in my userspace. What do you think about this draft? Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 16:12, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

It looks fine, as I responded there. As you know, if this was a about a corporation, I'd have a different attitude. But living persons who are not well-known public figures should get a great deal of leeway. Herostratus (talk) 17:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

hello

Thanks for the message, I haven't looked at my talk page in ages. I've not really had a wikiebreak as I've been editing anonymously. Just had to take a back seat fro mall the politics and bureaucracy. Monotonehell 19:16, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

ikr. Herostratus (talk) 19:58, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Music

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Notice

There has been a little vote going on over at the Battle of Kursk talk page regarding the wording of the description section. I noted that you commented on it some time ago early in the discussion, and we are still talking about it. If you would be interested in offering your opinion here is the link to offer a vote. Thanks. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

What do you think of this?

What are your thoughts on this closure? GabeMc 19:45, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not a good close. Herostratus (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Herostratus. Perhaps you would consider weighing-in at the ongoing closure discussion. GabeMc 00:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I probably won't do that. I did address an appeal directly to closer. If that (or the closure review, which I'd like to avoid as these things tend toward acrimony and defensiveness) doesn't solve the problem, the best solution might be to run an RfC on the meta-question of whether it's legitimate to run a RfC on the issue. Assuming that succeeds (which it probably would, but if not so be it) to then re-open the earlier RfC. This would be tedious though. Herostratus (talk) 01:22, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I retracted my closure at your request. Seriously, I have no problem with retracting or changing my mind or anything like this, and I appreciate the feedback; It will make me better next time. Thanks. :-) KrakatoaKatie 02:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you KrakatoaKatie! Herostratus (talk) 06:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Ian Charles Stewart

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Ian Charles Stewart. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Misplaced Pages:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Unexpected

Wasn't expecting anyone to say thanks for working through spelling errors. That made me smile. Wasn't sure you'd see it if I replied there.Antiqueight 17:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Gregory Kohs

I think you hit the mark quite well. I know from other sources (Wikipediocracy, National Wiki Edits Examiner, etc.) that Kohs is mostly concerned that:

• Wikimedia Foundation is a U.S. tax-exempt educational organization
• Wikimedia Foundation promotes the use of its sites by children
• Wikimedia Foundation sites host a large amount of pornographic and adult-oriented content and images
• Wikimedia Foundation abides by children administrating and curating its hosted pornographic and adult-oriented material
• Sharing pornography with children is a crime in most, if not every, U.S. jurisdiction
• Wikimedia Foundation refuses to install even an optional content filter for users who don't wish to be exposed to pornographic and adult-oriented material

It's tough to document all of that, though, unless multiple, non-preferred sources are used. - 2001:558:1400:10:A8E0:A6C8:1F09:21B (talk) 19:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

This sounds like a reasonable summary of his view on that matter, and these're also a reasonable points -- points I've made myself, although I don't think it's such a honkin' huge deal; it's partly a matter or principle rather than actual widespread damage being done to children, I'd guess. If he would write it like in some place we could ref, it might be good to lay it out like that in his article -- maybe.

I probably wouldn't support that, though, because my personal opinion is that he probably doesn't much care about any of this and it's cover for his real beef against the Misplaced Pages, which I guess is partly purely personal and emotional (he was banned) and partly ideological. We should be careful about taking people's stated concerns at face value. As, for instance, politicians who want to cut taxes on the rich and cut food stamps will say that their #1 concern is looking out for the long-term interests of the poor, and so forth. It'd be wrong and unbalanced of us to present what those politicians say without giving a broader context of what's really going on with them, if we can.

My advice to you personally is to be careful about taking what people say at fact value, especially cynical and manipulative people. (I'm not saying that Mr Kohs is cynical and manipulative. He's not! I'm saying that if you ever do run into anyone who is, your practice in not taking the words of Mr Kohs (who, let me stress, isn't cynical or manipulative) or anyone else at face value might stand you in good stead. You understand what I'm saying?) Cheers, Herostratus (talk) 21:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

October 2013

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Silver overlay may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "{}"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

• Catalog |place=Schwäbisch Gmünd, Germany |page=40 and 82 |url= |accessdate= }} {{language icon|de}}}</ref>

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 00:35, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Robot Overlord. Herostratus (talk) 00:56, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Images

I know that you deal with WP:Commons images. Do you think that these images Acroanna uploaded are his or her work? Does there need to be any more confirmation given on the image description pages? Flyer22 (talk) 21:45, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Looking at File:Pos strep.JPG, it appears that no other confirmation/information needs to be on the image description page. Flyer22 (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm in a public place so I'll have to look at it later. Herostratus (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

You simply warm my heart. Having read your past thoughts about paid editing, I have become a big fan, and could refrain from sending you a pastry no longer. Hope you're enjoying. Thank you for being. petrarchan47tc 15:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

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