Talk:Muhammad Abduh: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 05:36, 21 July 2013 editMezzoMezzo (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers19,113 edits →Freemasonry: new section← Previous edit		Revision as of 18:17, 16 November 2013 edit undo86.161.245.13 (talk) →Salafism and accusations: new sectionNext edit →
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	@] and @], the issue with freemasonry is simple. We have some sources which attribute the subject of this article to freemasonry. Thus, the most neutral wording is indeed "According to some sources" because that's a statement of fact.<br>		@] and @], the issue with freemasonry is simple. We have some sources which attribute the subject of this article to freemasonry. Thus, the most neutral wording is indeed "According to some sources" because that's a statement of fact.<br>
	Now, did Abduh ever attribute himself positively to freemasonry? I don't know. If a reliable source can be found in which he states that himself, then it can be written as a simple fact here on the encyclopedia. If he didn't openly declare himself a member, then we revert to the factual statement "According to some sources." That's the simplist way to deal with this. ] (]) 05:36, 21 July 2013 (UTC)		Now, did Abduh ever attribute himself positively to freemasonry? I don't know. If a reliable source can be found in which he states that himself, then it can be written as a simple fact here on the encyclopedia. If he didn't openly declare himself a member, then we revert to the factual statement "According to some sources." That's the simplist way to deal with this. ] (]) 05:36, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

			== Salafism and accusations ==

			The minor changes I made to this article have been repeatedly reverted for no good reason. I was accused of "obvious POV pushing" by @] despite making my changes in good faith.

			The only amendment I made was to change the denomination and movement of Abduh from "Islam" to "Salafism". This I believe is a more accurate reflection of Abduh's personal views. I base this on 2 points:

			Firstly, there is ample evidence from neutral sources that Abduh referred to himself and his movement as Salafi. For example, we have the following:

			''"Muhammad Abduh referred to his movement as Salafi, with an agenda of confronting Western imperialism and reforming Islamic Society at once. Abduh argued that the early generations of Muslims (al-salaf al-salihin) had produced a vibrant civilization"''
			Chris Heffelfinger, Radical Islam in America: Salafism's Journey from Arabia to the West, Chapter 2, p.3

			''"Muhammad Abduh as the key figure of the modernist Salafiya movement"'' and
			''"Like other reformers of his time, 'Abduh argues for a return to the "simple" and "pristine" Islam of the salaf"''
			The Oxford Handbook of Islam and Politics, p 33

			''"A thorough report into the historical development of these factions would necessarily begin with a careful analysis of the links between the indigenous Egyptian Salafi movement of Abduh and Rida"''
			Richard Gauvain, Salafi Ritual Purity: In the Presence of God, p 33

			Secondly, as mentioned in my original edit, The[REDACTED] article on Salafism also states that Abduh was a salafi. There needs to be consistency between articles.

			As a final point, Salafism (like most movements) is not a monolithic blob. I have no doubt that Abduh's brand of Salafism is rather different to somebody like Bin Baz. This does not however diminish the fact that he is Salafi.

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Miller, F. P., Vandome, A. F., & McBrewster, J. (2010), Contemporary Islamic philosophy: Islam, philosophy, modernity, Western philosophy, Jamal-al-Din Afghani, Muhammad Abduh, Muhammad Iqbal, Islamic fundamentalism, Islamic philosophy, Alphascript Publishing{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

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OCLC 697554244, ISBN 9786130678883.

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Legacy

Should explain how he was seen as being a modernizing reformer of Islam in his day, but now the Muslim Brotherhood lays claim to be the heirs of Abduh... AnonMoos (talk) 19:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

204.191.130.148 (talk) 04:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Odd bit about Masonic Lodge

There is something odd in the similarity between this sentence, at the bottom of the political views section:

>>It is a surprising information that Hanna Abi Rashid, then chief of the masonic lodge in Beirut, wrote in the book "Da’irat al-ma’arif al-Masoniyya" that “Jamal ad-Din Afghani was the chief of the masonic lodge in Egypt, which had about three hundred members, mostly scholars and state officials."

and this sentence in the page on Mohammed Abduh, at the end of the biography section:

>>It is a surprising information that Hanna Abi Rashid, then chief of the masonic lodge in Beirut, wrote in the book "Da’irat al-ma’arif al-Masoniyya" that “Muhammad Abduh was one of the leading names of the masonic lodge in Egypt, which had about three hundred members, mostly scholars and state officials."

I don't have access to the book (and can't read Arabic), but it seems odd to me that the author would write almost the exact same thing about Afghani and Abduh in almost identical words. The only difference in wording is that Afghani is said to have been chief of the Masonic lodge and Abduh is said to have been a leading member. Is the reference accurate? Is the book reliable? That is, should we trust that Afghani and Abduh were Masons?

I recommend that the lines on the Masonic lodge be deleted in both articles unless the source can be verified and someone can explain why this "surprising information" is relevant.

I also posted this comment on the page for Afghani.

Update: Ok, no reply in 24 hours, so I'll take out that line. 204.191.130.148 (talk) 04:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC) Kno Inres

Freemasonry

@User:CheckDigit1 and @DA1, the issue with freemasonry is simple. We have some sources which attribute the subject of this article to freemasonry. Thus, the most neutral wording is indeed "According to some sources" because that's a statement of fact.
Now, did Abduh ever attribute himself positively to freemasonry? I don't know. If a reliable source can be found in which he states that himself, then it can be written as a simple fact here on the encyclopedia. If he didn't openly declare himself a member, then we revert to the factual statement "According to some sources." That's the simplist way to deal with this. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:36, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Salafism and accusations

The minor changes I made to this article have been repeatedly reverted for no good reason. I was accused of "obvious POV pushing" by @User:MezzoMezzo despite making my changes in good faith.

The only amendment I made was to change the denomination and movement of Abduh from "Islam" to "Salafism". This I believe is a more accurate reflection of Abduh's personal views. I base this on 2 points:

Firstly, there is ample evidence from neutral sources that Abduh referred to himself and his movement as Salafi. For example, we have the following:

"Muhammad Abduh referred to his movement as Salafi, with an agenda of confronting Western imperialism and reforming Islamic Society at once. Abduh argued that the early generations of Muslims (al-salaf al-salihin) had produced a vibrant civilization" Chris Heffelfinger, Radical Islam in America: Salafism's Journey from Arabia to the West, Chapter 2, p.3

"Muhammad Abduh as the key figure of the modernist Salafiya movement" and "Like other reformers of his time, 'Abduh argues for a return to the "simple" and "pristine" Islam of the salaf" The Oxford Handbook of Islam and Politics, p 33

"A thorough report into the historical development of these factions would necessarily begin with a careful analysis of the links between the indigenous Egyptian Salafi movement of Abduh and Rida" Richard Gauvain, Salafi Ritual Purity: In the Presence of God, p 33

Secondly, as mentioned in my original edit, The[REDACTED] article on Salafism also states that Abduh was a salafi. There needs to be consistency between articles.

As a final point, Salafism (like most movements) is not a monolithic blob. I have no doubt that Abduh's brand of Salafism is rather different to somebody like Bin Baz. This does not however diminish the fact that he is Salafi.

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