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Edit Request to rid the article of Racialism.

In the first paragraph of this article there is a distinction made between Berbers and black africans which is absurd. Modern Berbers are not a race nor a complexion. They are an indigenous group of Africans who range from very fair skin to dark skin. A wide range of historical sources all point to the dark skin of the ancient Berbers. I have already cited many of these sources. Here is one quote from Ibn Butlan (from 11th century Baghdad) I forgot to cite:

"Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters ..."

In particular references to the Almorhavids all the historical sources commenting on their ethnicity portray them as mostly darkskinned, which is not surprising considering the Almorharvid movement was sparked and developed in Senegal, where some of the blackest people in the world live.

I also find it strange that this artticle absurdly defines Moors as strictly moslem when many of the famous Moors are Christians, black christians. I would appreciate it if you allowed the necessary changes to be made in this article. As my first attempt has been reversed.

My first attempt was in the first paragraph. Where i tried to get rid of the distinction between Berbers and black Africans as Berbers were frequently or mostly black Africans themselves. Here is my paragraph:

"The term Moors has referred to several historic and modern populations, used principally in reference to the Berber people but also came to be used for converted Muslims of Iberian descent,and also for other Africans besides Berbers as well as Arabs and Persians who made up the populations of Islamic Spain. After the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, the term up to the 19th century was widely understood or accepted as reference to any dark skin person of African descent, including Christians . From their base in northern Africa, they came to conquer, occupy and rule territories in the Iberian Peninsula for varying periods in different regions, ranging from two decades in the north-west to nearly eight hundred years in the south-east. At that time they were Muslims, although earlier these people had followed religions other than Islam. They called the territory they controlled in Iberia Al Andalus, which at its peak comprised most of what is now Spain and Portugal. For a shorter period called Islamic Sicily, they controlled all of Sicily and Malta, as well as other smaller parts of southern Italy."

I would appreciate feedback.

Ahmedbaba (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Berbers today are overwhelmingly Caucasian, so the distinction between them and black Africans seems appropriate to me. And for what it's worth, "Caucasian" does not have to mean that one possesses light skin; Middle Easterners and Northern Africans in general have dark skin, but are still Caucasian. The fact that they have dark skin doesn't make them black. Indians are another example.ElliotJoyce (talk) 04:35, 1 May 2012 (UTC)sockpuppet of Vost

Following the Lead is cited material noting that people from West Africa (sub-Saharan) became incorporated into the dynasty - I read the section you're objecting to as noting the wide variety of peoples who were historically referred to by that term.Parkwells (talk) 18:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

What does the image of St. James the Moor Slayer contribute to the overall narrative?

I don't understand it's purpose. Personally I would move to have it deleted, simply because it's purpose is reflective of anti-Moorish notions amongst the Aragonese, but is ultimately irrelevant, I feel that you would find that kind of sentiment against other ethnic and religious groups to be common for all groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.162.83 (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that showing this image in the lead section is odd, to say the least, in this context. I'll be bold and remove it. If someone cares to move it into an appropriate section, I won't object, but its current placement in the lead is inflammatory. Honestly, I came to this article by way of heraldry-related edits and never paid much attention to the rest of the article until recently, but I'll be looking it over in the next few months. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Berbers are not African!!!! Their racial features do not resemble any African traits at all. They are a different group of people NOT AFRICAN. One can tell when one looks African, based on facial features NOT color of skin. The writer is basing her/his assessment solely on color which is ridiculous!! Most North Africans will agree with what I have to say because I am from there. We are from North Africans but do not carry any African DNA. There are North Africans with strains from the south of the continent; it is clearly evident in their outlook. The writer needs to research correctly not based on emotions and feelings and his/her opinion!!! Egyptian culture enslaved most Africans, some inter married, few rose to prominence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.149.199 (talk) 15:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Issues with the lead

I've seen editors go back and forth over racial/ethnic issues in the lead, someone asserted that the Moors conquered and ruled the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years (which is factually false), and someone else added a fact tag to it. The lead is unstable because it has been the subject of poorly written, poorly sourced and sometimes counterfactual POV-pushing. I would REALLY like to know how this does anything to improve the article. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Changed it to "medieval Muslim inhabitants". Because the statement "populations from Northern Africa" was wrong because the population was not exclusively North African. Even the caliphs of Córdoba themselves were not from North Africa. Khestwol (talk) 08:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on the lead. I will see if I can get some time in the library this weekend to work on bringing more reliable sources into the article. I also have two research papers to work on, so it's a matter of time management for me. Thanks Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits. The section "Medieval Sicily" mentions Moorish Muslims of medieval Sicily and Lucera in Italy too, I added a mention of them to the lead. Khestwol (talk) 10:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I see we are still going back and forth over the inclusion of "muslim", "arab" and "berber", and I think some citations to reliable sources with these mentions in the lead would help. My American Heritage Dictionary states Moors are "people of mixed Berber and Arab descent," but that is a tertiary source. Anybody got reliable secondary sources handy? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Improving citations

This article has been tagged since September 2011 for need of additional citations, inappropriate or misinterpreted citations and disputed factual accuracy. If we are to improve the article, some additional details here on the talk page would be useful, such as what facts are in dispute and what citations may have been misinterpreted. If anyone knows of a citation that does not support the attributed sentence, please note the details here, so that I or another editor can remedy the situation. Also please note here any other dubious assertions of fact not already tagged with . If none are noted within about 30 days, I intend to remove the tag. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 01:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion regarding the "debate"

It seems to me that gray areas are being assumed relevant to the lead.

The remedy would appear to be to note these disputes right under the head with subheads pertaining to what they are about, something like this:

"Reader Disputes

"Race Defined by Color

"Some who have read this article find it insulting that portions of the head, and references in it, explain history that also explains how that history defined race by color and nothing else. Reason and science in the modern day reject this means of defining race but this principle was relevant to the more oppressive and tyrannical past of mankind, portions of which are being discussed in this article. Thus, to accurately explain and portray that history, it is germane to the purposes of the article.

"The Iberian Peninsula

"There has also been a dispute amongst readers where some suggest the Moors conquered and ruled the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years. Until citation to a verifiable record of this information is made this article will reference it as a dispute amongst readers, and this is done in an effort to be inclusive of those with this view while explaining that there is no known factual basis for it."

"These disputes have been set forth and classified in this manner in an effort to help them be resolvable disputes within an arguable and provable context instead of as a "static-in-crosstalk" unable to be resolved in a manner that contributes to the article."

My 2 cents as a reader who found this in searching for some information on Moors.

Thank you and apologize for typos etc., no grammarian here.
--71.223.40.124 (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  The "reader who found this in searching for some information on Moors" could of course better have stated the proposal in terms of our DABbing practices and NPoV, but more to the point they will hopefully be around to help correct our probable misunderstandings of their concerns and of their arguments for fixes. I'll probably have more to say on this talk page -- tho my own interest in the article is more concerned with the DAB problems than the NPoV ones.
--Jerzy•t 22:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Gallery revert

About this revert: I removed the gallery not because I have some general objection against galleries, but because the contents of this particular gallery were inappropriate. It was a random and rather tasteless collection of mostly late, non-contemporary paintings, several of them full of orientalist stereotype (such as the clichéed and utterly ahistorical "Picking the Favourite", a typical example of 19th-century European salacious phantasizing about "oriental" harems and the like, or the equally stereotyped (and mislabelled) File:Moorish King Of Grenada.jpg. These things tell us a lot about western European imaginations of the "other", but they tell us precious little about the actual historical Moors. These images need to be removed, unless they were embedded in some insightful and well-sourced commentary, in a section about "cultural depictions" or something like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I c the kind of stuff that would make Edward Said turn in his grave. No problem. --Inayity (talk) 20:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Heraldry

The moor and savage are utterly distinct. It's as if a person said a lion was sometimes called a tiger. I am going to edit. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Population Genetics section

There are multiple issues with this section. First, a source and statement are needed to frame its necessity in the article (i.e., that the genetic and ethnic origins and make-up of Moorish peoples is in dispute). Without such a statement, the section's necessity is in question. Speaking specifically to what is already there: the first paragraph regarding the Howard University professor contains weasel words and should be cleaned up. The second paragraph likewise contains no explanation or statement framing its reason for inclusion. Additionally, this section addresses only one of the groups that the term "Moor" was applied to (and briefly, at that). The Berber article adequately addresses the genetic attributes of that ethnic group, so reiterating it here is unnecessary, unless the section is intended to briefly address the genetic attributes of all the above-mentioned groups.

In all, however, I believe that the earlier sections discussing the ethnic and geographic dynamics of Moors adequately addresses the concerns this section is supposed to, and it may therefore be completely unnecessary. As it exists now, I understand that these concerns may be contentious, so I've refrained from editing the content as of yet. However, I am adding a section tag so that these concerns may be addressed. 68.34.18.128 (talk) 03:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Correcting Weasel words has never been that controversial. --Inayity (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, went ahead and edited it, then. The other concerns should still be addressed. 68.34.18.128 (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

As there has not yet been suitable justification for the inclusion of the Berber y-haplogroup information in the genetics section, and as that information is covered more adequately in other articles, I'm going to remove it for now. While it is in and of itself well-cited, there is no mention of its direct connection to the Moors, and only an offhand mention of its relation to modern Andalusian and Iberian populations (which does not itself connect it to the historical Moors that are the subject of this article). I can conceivably see why genetic information of the Moorish peoples would be of interest to readers, and would love to see someone with greater expertise take up this challenge and expand the section. However, right now it is underdeveloped, confusing, and unfortunately not completely justified in its inclusion. I'll be cleaning up the issue tags also. Feel free to comment.68.34.18.128 (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The images in this article are completely wrong

These images in this article in NO WAY represent the physiognomic Moor. It is hard to believe that such a "reputable" online encyclopedia would allow such false images of the Moors when there are literally dozens of painted images with captions of the artists, along with many descriptions describing the Moors who are in fact the Moabites as cited by the Christian writers of the Middle ages, as dark skinned (misnomer black) men and woman. Such misinformation is seen as a greater western academic attempt to disconnect the greatness of those whom are being called black or african american, from their Moorish roots because these roots can literally be traced back to the paradisiacal myth of the Garden of Eden and who the worlds first men are, how they looked and what they were called, MOORS, Who came from the sacred MT. MERU. After my experience with the Noble Drew Ali page dealing with the Moorish Science Temple of America and its history, proves my point. This articles imagery sets the tone for a "whitewashing" of historical facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheik Way-El (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2013‎

Do you have any specific suggestions for improving the article? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

what is the problem here ? some users just don't seem to get it . the pictures in the article are contemporary. are you saying that a contemporary depiction of a berber moorish king isn't relevant ? why would cherry picked 16th century paintings of random , fictitious people be representative of the actual historical moors ? paintings like Rembrandt's " two moors " and " saint george and the moors " don't belong in here . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paypayvay (talk • contribs) 18:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation

How about a disambiguation link to the land feature known as a moor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.71.233 (talk) 16:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Afrocentrism anyone?

The term "Moor" might apply to blacks in the Sahara and the Niger Delta/Senegal River, but in al-Andalus, the Moors were definitely not black, only a few were. Knowing all the medieval paintings of Muslims in Spain, there are only a couple of them that depict black Muslims, whereas literally dozens and dozens more show light-skinned (not even medium/brown-skinned) Muslims. I feel many of the pictures on this article are misleading; consider the classic picture that Afrocentrists love using: black Muslims playing chess. I checked the picture source, and it comes from an Afrocentrist website ("realhistoryww"). This is very biased because in the whole Book of Games, only a couple of pictures depict blacks whereas almost all of the other Muslims in the book are depicted as light-skinned. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from the Sahara or west Africa (Mali/Nigeria/Senegal)? Yes. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from Spain or Portugal? No. And that picture attempts to show what Muslims in al-Andalus looked like, which is inaccurate cherry-picking the two or three pictures of black Muslims in the Book of Games. That picture can be kept, but more pictures need to be added, otherwise this seems biased and even Afrocentrist.--Fernirm (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Is Afrocentrism a crime? the way you write makes it sound like one. Also the statement "Moors were def not black, only a few were" is contradictory. To illustrate a point about images, if you took all the media pictures from South Africa it would be hard to believe Africans are the majority."black" is a modern non-academic term,and we should leave it out of history. West African Muslims is better than black Muslims.--Inayity (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.126.13.113 (talk)

Depiction and Information involving Moors

I'm not the only one to complain about the depiction of the Moors on this article. The guy above me whose post was not even two months ago was also complaining. I had to restore his post by manual reverting cause I accidentally deleted it. Either way no more need to digress -- the depiction of the Moors is clearly false. I want to remove all images of the Moors except for ones that came from Islamic Iberia in order for an accurate representation of the Moors. A painting from a German artist in the 19th century is not an accurate depiction of the Moors, at all. A painting of the Moors that came from Al-Andalus is much more realistic and has much more authenticity. I am an editor that is precise and like to get the the most accurate, congruent, and logical pictures and sources for articles, and the ones currently for this page are not that great. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 13:31, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Let's see what other editors think about this change. I know quite a few watch the article. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:58, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

My recent string of edits replace the former sources that are nonexistent and go to deadlinks. It also makes it explicit that the original Moors were inhabitants of North Africa and primarily of Arab and Berber descent, but the term "Moor" in Europe referred to anybody who was Muslim regardless of race/ethnicity and the Moors who became more diverse as time went on. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 14:16, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Can you wait for the Talk Page before making changes to the article. This is how we do it. You do not make changes and then tell us what you have done. You make the suggestion, since there is no agreement. And Please show me the reference which backs up your statement. I did not see the word EXPLICIT, in the lead.--Inayity (talk) 16:40, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

You don't have to discuss changes on the talk page before making edits to articles son. I know how Misplaced Pages works when it comes to editing, obviously you don't if you think I have consult you or wait for a consensus before making new edits. If you disagree with my edits you can revert them. Oh, you mean my sources that make it clear as the sky on a summer day in LA regarding the Moors? Did you even go to them? I pick unbiased logical sources, but the current paintings on this page consist of paintings of the Moors from hundreds of years after by German Artists and information regarding the Moors coming from sources that are nonexistent and contain deadlinks and by a known Afrocentrist whose claims consist of idiocy such as Black Olmecs, lmao — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.126.13.113 (talk) 07:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Once you see an edit in dispute and it has been reverted and the reason given you are required to follow Misplaced Pages protocol and establish compliance with wiki policy. You are supposed to PROVE your claims, not insult other references. And if you do not have any ref for your def of Moor then why are you inserting it?--Inayity (talk) 08:27, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Except my new string of edits were just reverted now, not originally. If I was to make over 3 reversions in one day after your dispute, then I would be violating WP's decree. Also me attacking citations would fall under this. I also had new references for the Moors that actually work and aren't antiquated sources that are deadlink or nonexistent or sources that lead to books by an author who has been chastised for his "psuedohistory" literature. When we deal with topics of history we need historicity and a neutral point of view, not biased editing or pictures with no validity or sources. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 12:02, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

If you have a problem with a ref then raise the issue as opposed to make vague references to sources. i see no dead links to non-exitenent sources. As as for books, I did not realize Afrocentrism was a crime against Misplaced Pages. Per NPOV, the article should be NPOV, but where will you find a 100% NPOV source? I mean a source that has no politics, no agenda to promote, may it be Afrocentric or usually the case Eurocentric. --Inayity (talk) 12:54, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

The second source citation actually goes nowhere. There is also a citation that has been labelled a deadlink since July 2010 and the 5th source currently being a deadlink for me also and I have left a note there. As for the second citation and I just replaced it along with some of the article. As for the "Afrocentric" citation regarding an author has has been reprimanded for his views on history is definitely a questionable source and I have replaced it. We do not need sources that come from Afrocentrists who have been criticized for their illogical historical revisionist extremist views or Eurocentrist sources. We need reliable sources that are not questionable and good. I've made some changes to the article by making some parts of the article more comprehensible and replacing sources that are deadlink and questionable. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 08:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Do not continue to disrupt this page with your agenda of adding back in your position while deleting an established talk page stable version. And read WP:LR, and you can take the Afrocentrism issue to the relevant page, here people of all political persuasions can be used as ref, the merit of work must be disproved. they are not thrown out b/c of skin color or politics. --Inayity (talk) 09:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I added a dead link citation to one that wasn't working (not removing it) and replaced the other citation (#2) that is completely nonexistent or as you so eloquently put it "non-exitenent" -- also an author currently being used as a source who has been criticized for his extremist historical revisionist views is a without doubt and should be replaced by a better reliable source like I gave. Misplaced Pages needs to be based off neutral editing and reliable sources, this is what makes Misplaced Pages articles good. Especially when dealing with a topic such at hand where the Moors were a huge part in history. We do not need sources from authors who are known for psuedohistory or ones that don't even work. What problem do you have with my last edit? Elaborate please? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 11:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

What edit would that be. Dead links should not be deleted, I have updated the Ornament ref. and re-added your minor corrections. So we will now have to discuss Ivan Van Sertima for the 100th time. You see His point on the Almoravid inclusion of West Africans is actually accurate. No book will be 100% accurate or RS for everything. But he was correct on that point. If you have a better ref let us know! that makes that point of West Africans inclusion. --Inayity (talk) 11:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

My last edit. I added the dead link citation to the 5th reference, made that part more explicit there and moved a couple words around. I have no problem with "Berbers, North African Arabs, Muslim Iberians and West Africans from Mali and Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty" or the source for #3 as you have updated it. I have a problem with a man who has been criticized for psuedohistory as a source. I replaced that source with a more reliable one but left the wording prior to it. Citation #2 does not work at all, it's not even a deadlink, it goes nowhere and I replaced it with a different source. So can you look back at my preceding edit and tell me the specific problem? Thanks. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 11:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

DOes that ref say what the sentence is saying, the same thing Van Sertima is saying about West Africans?--Inayity (talk) 12:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Look, the only thing I can find about West Africans in reliable sources is how part of the Almoravid_dynasty was in Mali, that's it. Van Sertima is not a reliable source, he's a questionable source due to his widely known extremist views. We're dealing with a huge part of history here man. We need all the historicity possible and that can only come from reliable sources and NPOV editing. That information currently is the following and nothing more. Okay, look, this dispute has been going on for awhile now and I am willing to make a deal with you by allowing that source by Van Sertima to stay, if you allow me to make my edit. Sound good? Yes or no? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 17:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Why dont you do your edit without deleting the existing sentences, integrate something. I would rather not use Van Sertima as I cannot deny his track record is not that good. --Inayity (talk) 19:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)--Inayity (talk) 19:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, the only sentence I actually got rid of was the one preceding the second source and replaced it almost entirely because the source isn't there at all. I added a few minor details on to the part regarding the Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania and added a new source there and didn't get rid of the one currently there. So really I did my edit without deleting most stuff. Okay, so I made my edit again and would like to know your exact problem with it. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 06:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you realize your edit A. has no ref. B. is less nuanced that what you replaced it with. Critical info on the European usage of Moor is now missing: e term "Moors" has also been used in Europe in a broader sense to refer to Muslims, especially those of Arab or African descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa. During the colonial years the Dutch introduced the name "Moor", in Sri Lanka. The Bengali Muslims were called Moor. So this is the issue. You can integrate both positions with out deleting sourced content which is important. Moor is used beyond Islam see Sri Lanka!--Inayity (talk) 06:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I actually forgot my reference, my bad. It has been added now and it states how people in Sri Lanka have been called "Moors" in my source too. Check the new source I added man. Generally speaking when people use the term "Moor" they are referring to medieval inhabitants of the Middle Ages though and sometimes just a Muslim in general. Either way, source has been added.

I also want to point out that the current sixth reference goes to this and not to an actual source regarding information on the Moors. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 14:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

2-1 that you r contributions are not an improvement, please accept this before continuing to revert. You can now use request for comments to build agreement or request input from others--Inayity (talk) 16:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Yes, another editor feels my edits are "not an improvement" but just because there is a 2-1 count does not mean consensus has been made from all sides. Sure, another editors sentiments are of importance, but that does not mean a majority count by 1 point is a substitute for discussion. I would like to hear his opinion on why he dislikes my edits. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 17:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that your edits actually are not an improvement and poorly written. No need for democracy when you make the article less professional.--Inayity (talk) 15:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I make the article "less professional" yet citations currently don't work and the ones that do go to sites that are deadlink or have nothing to do with Moors. You add a picture of a Moor that has absolutely no historical authenticity to the slightest as he was fiction and the painting is based off a fictional story. My attempts at delineation for this article regarding information and pictorial representation of the Moors for this article is apparently "not an improvement" even though you can't seem to give me a logical reason how on my last edit.

Oh wait, another editor came along and gave a poor reason but since you think consensus on Misplaced Pages works by voting, you decided to stop your attempts at logicality. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 17:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, but consensus doesn't consist of you ignoring every other editor who disagrees with your edits, either. Pinkbeast (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Who have I ignored? I've been on this page discussing this article for quite some time and been willing to converse with other editors on it. I haven't ignored anybody as far as I know and if you can tell me who I have ignored, go ahead please. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 21:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

You've ignored every other editor apart from you. You have never, as far as I can see, got any other editor to agree to the changes you make. Pinkbeast (talk) 00:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I haven't "ignored" them at all son. I've been conversing with them on here and wanting to know their specific problem with my edits. Actually Inayity has agreed with my edits to a certain degree and some minor changes have been made -- but he can't give me a reason for disliking my last edit for this article regarding information of the Moors. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 07:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

New edit has been made to the article by thyself as the previous one currently contradicted itself. It said "The term "Moors" has also been used in Europe in a broader sense to refer to Muslims, especially those of Arab or African descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa." and then it said "Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people" and then it said "

were initially Arabs and Berbers" so I rectified this article by replacing a source that doesn't work, at all. I then moved some words around by placing them in the correct chronological order and got rid of a few words also. If you disagree with this edit, please tell me the specific problem. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Before editing the article please get some argument here first. It is going around in circles. And I will just revert the changes or request the page be protected. You can use a sandbox to experiment. --Inayity (talk) 19:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Argument about what? I made a new edit and I didn't revert the article back to my prior edit. What problem do you have with my new edit? Tell me, go ahead. Oh wait, you don't have a logical reason to revert, just like you haven't gave any rational reasons for reverting the last time I made an edit for information on this article. You say "it is going around in circles" but it's not technically edit warring so it's fine, but it is starting to get ridiculous and this is your fault. Why? Cause you can't give me any cogent reasons for your continuous reverting. It seems to me you can't just take an L plehboi. So I'll ask you once again: what problem did you have with my last edit? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Several days have gone by and Inayity has still failed to give me a logical reason for his reversion. I changed the article basically back to how my previous edit was and made some minor changes too. If you revert my edit again without giving an actual reason then I will report you as you have failed to give me a specific reason twice then. So if you have a problem with this new edit, please tell me why. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 18:28, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

In other words, you have no consensus for the changes. I'm not surprised Inayity hasn't replied, since you've got further and further from any actual comment on the content of the article. I'm not even sure "It seems to me you can't just take an L plehboi" is in any language I speak. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Are you not even familiar with any of Misplaced Pages's basic editing policies? This is the second time I have been reverted without a specific reason why. One from you and one from Inayity. If it happens again from either of you without a logical reason, expect a report. Also, you ain't familiar with ebonics bruh? Sad. Regarding the content of the article in my new edit -- what about it? It contradicts itself the current way it is. Multiple sources don't work and I fixed them by replacing them and I formatted the article correctly. My changes were explained a couple posts up, but I keep getting reverted for no valid reason. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 10:47, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The current version is far better and more encyclopedic than your version. The ref in the current are better than ref to another encyclopedia. please read also WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and WP:LISTEN we cannot burden ourselves with replying to every poor edit you make. But you can request for comments! if you feel your 'version' makes the article better. The lead is fine as is. --Inayity (talk) 11:11, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The page you link to as a "basic editing policy" is not a Misplaced Pages policy, something stated clearly at the top of that page. Consensus is; and a start to consensus would be to find any other editor who likes the changes you propose. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:09, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm just curious Inayity did you even take a gander at this page itself breh? You are the epitome of a disruptive editor and fall into the #4 aspect of that primer. It explicitly says "a. repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits;" which you do perfectly. How many times must I ask for a specific problem with my edit? You obviously object my edits cause you revert them but when I ask you for a problem with my edit not one logical reason. It is quite clear you been ducking this question nonstop son. My edits have been reverted for the most idiotic reasons and even one that is advised not to do on here. Just curious - how is the article better the current way it is? It's better with sources that go nowhere and a reference that does go somewhere goes to a page with no connection to this article? It is better with poor formatting, contradictory, and references? Hilarity at its finest here brehs. I'm just curious and I'll ask once again... WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH MY LAST EDIT? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 17:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that Inayity discussed your changes on several occasions; that they decline to do so again, now you are not discussing the content of the article at all, is not remarkable. It doesn't seem to me that they improve the article either; I'm generally leery of edits that remove a reference that happens not to suit the editor, and I really can't see any reason to remove Othello, who's enormously well known by virtue of being a (fictional) Moor.

I also would appreciate it if you would not address me or other editors as "breh", "son", etc. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes he has discussed the article on several occasions, it regards reversion and not telling me a specific problem with my edits as I have asked a couple times now. You reverted my article last time -- what problem do you have it? Tell me. Oh wait, your reason for reversion was one not advised to do on WP. Lol at "now you are not discussing the content of the article" so me in post above talking about formatting, references, and contradictory in the article isn't discussing it? Sorry if you don't like my Ebonics bruh bruh, but being from America it is a variety of American English that a lot of people use. I'm still waiting for a specific reason for not liking my last edit, besides Othello which was really just a small part of the edit pictorial wise, but information wise I would like to know what's the problem. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I described my problem above; I don't see that your edit effects any improvement to the article, it removes a reference for no reason, and it's pretty clear you've got an axe to grind. I am not taking exception to your use of this dialect - but that you seem to be using it in a condescending fashion, consistent with the rest of your tone. Or perhaps you will tell me "plehboi" is a term indicative of deep respect? Pinkbeast (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Son it's just common slang for me, not any disparagement that is overt or subliminal with it. There is no "axe to grind" here either breh and there never has been. Me removing references were for valid reasons such as updating a reference that went to a wrong link by replacing it with a new source that goes to the same book it referenced but an actual working link with the exact same book and a page number there too. Article is formatted incorrectly and most of it comes off as redundant and contradicting, as I already pointed out. My editorial is not to push some subliminal POV behind it or vandalize pages -- my edits are trying to rectify problems within articles by replacing sources that are problems (antiquated, not working, biased, etc) and by putting images that are congruent with the article, and formatting the articles correctly too. Your biggest problem with my last edit was removing references even though it was quite clear why I removed them and have explained it several times and the Othello picture? Yet you didn't explain that -- you reverted it for a reason not advised to do on here. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 18:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Please let me know if you are, at some point in the future, willing to discuss things in a civil fashion without using condescending terms, after apologising for your use of them to both me and Inayity. I've had quite enough of it. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Son they aren't condescending terms to me, it's common slang. If you interpret them as "condescending" then that's not my fault homie. I'm willing to discuss things in a civil fashion and have been ever since this new topic on talk page started. I've made edits to the article and my edits have been reverted several times without elaboration and for the most trite and idiotic reasons and for reasons not advised by Misplaced Pages. I'm willing to continue this discussion, so go ahead and tell me what problem you had with last edit after elucidating it in my last post. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 19:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not your son, your breh, bruh, homie - or "plehboi", whatever one of those is, although not even Urban Dictionary seems to know that one. I think it is perfectly clear from your tone that you do not intend those terms to be polite; in particular, I'm not aware of any English-speaking country where addressing someone as "son" is not condescending (and quite inappropriate for half the population). I have already described my issue with your edits clearly and concisely, and I don't intend to do so again until you address me in a civil fashion. Pinkbeast (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

How you interpret those terms is different from thyself. I'll stop using them though cause you apparently aren't a fan of em. So can we can get back to discussion about the article now? Hopefully. So what exactly was your problem with my last edit? You said you didn't like how I removed Othello (a new edit to this page) and removed references and replaced them with new ones or updated broken ones. That was your problem with last edit? If so, why didn't you come on the page and state that before giving me the most pathetic reason for reversion? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

New edit has been made to this article which is basically the same as my last editorial except adding and remaining a few things. I have left the picture of Othello on the article while removing a picture of this Moroccan sultan as the Moors were medieval Muslim inhabitants of certain areas -- that man is not a Moor he is a sultan of Morocco from the 19th century and has nothing to do with this article. Sure the Moors came from Morocco but not much of a relation to a Moroccan in the 19th century as it even explicitly says so in the beginning of this article the Moors were medieval Muslim inhabitants, not 19th century ones. I also added a date to a picture in the article as it is best to tag pictures in this article with a specific time period of their creation for exactitude as we do not want to cause confusion. Sources have been updated by replacing ones that go nowhere and by

amending one that was going to a incorrect link. I formatted the article correctly by editing it accurately in chronological order and removed contradicting parts of the article and redundant sentences. I decided to remove another topic on the talk page for space as this topic covers that former conversation by the way. If you have a problem with my new edit on the article, please elaborate why on here and be specific, thank you. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Once again Inayity has reverted me by deeming me a "disruptive editor" without discussing the article on the talk page and failing to elaborate on his issues with my edit. He is the disruptive editor and falls into #4 of that primer perfectly. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 16:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Once again WP:DISRUPTSIGNS seek a Request for comments, we do not have to go over it again and again. Your version is weaker and less encyclopedic. "Moor is a term" used by WHO? Seek agreement for your edits as a measure of quality control. No one else agrees with them. --Inayity (talk) 16:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

You are the disruptive editor here as I have just pointed out. As for "your version is weaker" based off what? Be specific, why do you keep ducking this question? Why do you keep ignoring me when asking for a reason as to why you dissent with my edit? As for "no else agrees with them" it is advised not to revert because of no consensus but to revert for a specific reason as to why you dislike someones edits. Also "Moor is a term" who are you quoting here? You're not coming off as very articulate or making any sense here for that matter. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 16:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

1. Stanley Lane-Poole , Arthur Gilman; The Story of The Moors in Spain, 1903
2. John Olgilvie, The Imperial Dictionary of the English Language (1882)

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