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Cities Start‑class

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Untitled

OK. Not good: Nietzsche's[REDACTED] page says he is buried in Rocken, not Weimar. Going to delete statements that it is in Weimar (I was just there this summer and don't recall seeing his tomb).

The missing coat of arms makes an unsightly hole at the top of the page... Does anyone have one to fill up the hole ? -- PFHLai 01:54, 2005 August 28 (UTC)

"A visit to Weimar would not be complete without a tour of Goethe's home or gardenhouse, a stroll through the picturesque and expansive Park an der Ilm, a sampling of Thüringian Bratwurst from the local vendors at the Markt Platz, or a taste of any of the many decadent (and cheap) ice cream flavors that line the main scenic street, Schillerstrasse." Why must articles discussing a city and it's salient history always devolve into travell blrbs? More to the point, this is an article about the city of Weimar, and not about travelling to the city of Weimar. I'd like to remove this entire paragraph - leave a note with your feelings on this. Dxco 18:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This problem could be fixed simply by changing the language or attaching relevant facts. Right now it looks like a "travel blurb," but the points in that paragraph could be useful to some. Someone who knows something about WEIMAR should make these ideas relevant by editing the language. ABresnahan 22:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Visitors today can view areas used for shelter, medical experimentation, cremation, and labor. A somber, disturbing experience, yet one that must be endured." Uhm...? Should not be in an Encyclopedia. It also borders on moral prescriptivism.

According to the page on Hummel, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, Haydn, and Antonio Salieri were the tutors of Hummel. No mention of Mozart there! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.110.22 (talk) 09:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

External Links

These two links are commercial and should maybe be replaced in the future:

• The Weimar Story
• Ginkgo Museum, Weimar

KaiKemmann (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

City

By what standard is Weimar termed a city (I would say town), and what is the meaning of full-value-city? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

In 1410 Weimar received its city rights (Stadtrecht & Stadtfreiheit): "1410 The Wettin lend Weimar city charter and city freedom along the lines of Weissensee, confirming older city statutes, which date back to 1348." - here (Weimar was declared a town in 1254 and was chartered in 1348; here) --IIIraute (talk) 01:26, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I probably don't have to understand by which logic it's "declared a town", but "city rights", while we have an article Town privileges, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

"City" is used with a much wider meaning in America.

The consensus for German settlements is:

• For settlements with town rights (Stadtrechte) and populations under 100,000: translate as "town"
• For settlements with town rights (Stadtrechte) and populations of 100,000 or more (i.e. a Großstadt): translate as "city"

--Boson (talk) 13:18, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, helps. Population when? The discussion came from the Schloss, last version built around 1800. Today's "city" could have been a town before. Weimar is not even a city by that standard today, with 63k+ population. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Since we are not talking about America, the article is written in British English, and the population is less than 100,000, I would definitely say "town". "Stadtrechte" do not justify use of "city", but I suppose the word might be justified in a historical context if there were a source that classified Weimar as a Großstadt at the relevant time. --Boson (talk) 13:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

City of London, population: 7,375 --IIIraute (talk) 19:30, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Good one! But, of course, the City of London is different from the city of London, and each has a mayor! --Boson (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Boson, the City of London is a city within London. It holds city status in its own right. Monaco has a population of 36,371 and is a sovereign city-state. I think you are getting my point. Let us ignore WP:RS, such as Encyclopædia Britannica here for a while:

Not only was Weimar the capital of the grand duchy of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach until 1918, and the capital of Thuringia from 1920 to 1948 - but much more important, Weimar also is one of the Independent cities of Germany, a Kreisfreie Stadt; i.e. a municipal corporation with town privileges of city status. --IIIraute (talk) 21:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I understand your point, but I'm not sure if you understand mine. City has several meanings. American usage is to call such independent settlements cities, whereas British usage is to call them towns. Because of the problems of inconsistent usage of such classifications, WikiProject Germany recommends reserving the term "city" for the German Großstadt. We try to follow the classifications of the country concerned. The German Stadtrecht distinguishes a Stadt (town) from a Dorf (Village), and "city" is ued for Großstadt. Weimar was declared a town in 1254. This is not to say that we could not use term "city", based on some defined criteria, but we need to be consistent in order to avoid misleading the reader, so we should reach consensus at a higher level. In this case, I would say the appropriate place is WT:GER, where the present consensus is to reserve "city" for Großstadt. It might make sense to suggest using "city" for "kreisfreie Stadt", but that might open up a can of worms because of differences between different Länder. With "city states" of course, there is the issue of sovereignty, but that is not especially relevant for Germany since the federated city states are all the size of Großstädte. I don't think it makes sense to apply a differing local consensus for each article. Another point is that in (British) English, a town with the right to call itself a city can still be referred to as a town, so it is seldom incorrect to use the word "town". --Boson (talk) 00:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

This is a textbook example of WP:AINT. Since the creation of this article 12 years ago the article calls Weimar a "city". German Stadtrecht is much more complicated, than having a division between "Dorf" and "Stadt", e.g. Große kreisangehörige Stadt, Große Kreisstadt, Kreisfreie Stadt, Mittlere kreisangehörige Stadt, Bundesstadt, Stadtstaat, etc. As Kreisfreie Stadt, Weimar is a communal Gebietskörperschaft: "eine Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts, die die Gebietshoheit auf einem räumlich abgegrenzten Teil des Staatsgebietes besitzt." - therefore has a sovereign status similar to that of city states. I love how the WP likes to make up its own truth, ignoring constitunional laws, and WP:RS, such as Encyclopædia Britannica or The American Desk Encyclopedia, Oxford University Press whether contemporary, or from 250 years ago And all of this for what? because one editor, for whatever reason - e.g. not liking the term "City Castle" or "City Palace" - doesn't want Weimar to be a "city" - what a waste of time. Enjoy your gift. --IIIraute (talk) 01:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps Weimar should be called a city, but your differentiation looks rather like the American differentiation. Personally, I can see arguments for both sides, but I think it needs to be discussed at a higher level than the individual article. It looks as if you agree that there should be some consistency between different articles on German settlements, though I'm not sure how to understand your argument about it being a city on the basis of it having sovereign status like a city state because it is a Gebietskörperschaft. As I understand it Ruhpolding is also a Gebietskörperschaft. This also looks like a misleading translation of "Gebietshoheit" leading to a confusion with the sovereignty of a state (including the limited sovereignty of a federated state). --Boson (talk) 13:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Cannes, Versailles, Bath, City of London, etc. - please change articles accordingly. --IIIraute (talk) 17:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Schloss

English differentiates between castles, palaces, and mansions. I think "castle" is generally used only for buildings with battlements (typically on a hill, and built for armed defence). --Boson (talk) 13:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

If you are referring to the Weimarer Stadtschloss, please note that it used to be a medieval moated castle and that the own website refers to the Stadtschloss as "castle", here --IIIraute (talk) 20:49, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

There may indeed be reasons to call it a castle rather than a palace, but I strongly suspect it is a simple (and quite common) mistranslation. I note that the English text does not say it "used to be a medieval moated castle" but that it was "originally constructed on the site of a moated castle", which the German text calls a "mittelalterliche Wasserburg"--Boson (talk) 00:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC).

"... Anlage ging aus einer mittelalterlichen Wasserburg hervor und wurde ...", but it doesn't matter.

Check this out - Πάντα ῥεῖ, --IIIraute (talk) 01:40, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

It still looks like a mistranslation to me, though the boundaries are sometimes fluid. Could you explain why you think this particular Schloss is a castle rather than a palace? The change from -burg to Schloss in German would also tend to suggest that the new building was not a castle. --Boson (talk) 13:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

You mean like Neuschwanstein Castle (Schloss Neuschwanstein)? And I don't mind whether this particular Stadtschloss is a castle or a palace - since it is both, and some of the castle/Burg structures are still existent and incorporated in the new building - however, this still makes it a "City Palace" or "City Castle" --IIIraute (talk) 17:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

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