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Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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	Germany is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
[REDACTED]	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 7, 2007.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 12, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted November 29, 2006 Peer review Reviewed January 9, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted June 13, 2011 Featured article review Kept Current status: Featured article

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on October 3, 2009 and October 3, 2010.

Civilian Service

The times have changed a lot. While I was serving the Red Cross in 1998/99 it was 10 month for the guys in the army and 13 (!) for the conscientious objectors like me. Only during the very final stages of compulsory service the time you had to serve either the army or any civilian institution was the same (from 9 month down to 6).

I can't remember there was a 6 months service. I was one of the last who had to do the compulsory service and it was definitly 9 months!

Einstein's nationality

After reading the archive 5 discussion on the subject, I noticed that some technical matters about nationality have not been adressed. In the Albert Einstein article, you can read that Einstein changed six nationalities, (half of which are for states not identified as Germany) during his lifetime and that he spent a great part of his life outside Germany. The article also mentions (with source) that he "renounced his citizenship in the German Kingdom of Württemberg to avoid military service". All of the above support the view that the identification of Einstein with some legal nationality is problematic and in particular that he didn't identify himself strongly as a German (renouncing German citizenship to avoid military duty). On the other hand, saying that Einstein is a Jew is supported by his ethnicity, by his numerous statements in which he accepts his Jewish indentity, and by the fact that he was offered the position of President of Israel. In conclusion, Einstein is a very poor example of a German scientist. Popular opinion in the US might be that he is a German but this is an encyclopedia, and a more informed perspective should be adopted for its articles. Nxavar (talk) 10:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

In 1914, Einstein became a German citizen again - became the director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics, and a professor at the Humboldt University of Berlin, as well as a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences. In 1916, Einstein was appointed president of the German Physical Society. In 1917, at the height of his work on relativity, Einstein published in Physikalische Zeitschrift his Modern quantum theory. In 1921, being a German citizen, Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics. --77.181.80.34 (talk) 13:46, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

@Nxavar There is no doubt that Einstein changed his citizenship multiple times and voluntarily opted for a non-German citizenship when this was possible. For very understandable reasons, he had his issues with German nationality. I guess this would hold for almost all German Jews who lived or perished during this time.

However, citizenship is a fact not a feeling. Nowadays, it is quite normal to change this fact from time to time. Just look at the list of Nobel laureates, and see how many have acquired US nationality later in their lives. This doe not render their nationality problematic, it just becomes a transient aspect. So, I do not follow your argument that Einstein's nationality (I would rather say citizenship) is problematic. What 77.181.80.34 wrote is more relevant for the present article than the fact that Einstein was later offered (?) to become President of Israel (don't they elect the president there?). During his most prominent works and when receiving the Nobel price, he was citizen of Germany. This fact justifies his mentioning.

Perhaps it should be mentioned that he held (and opted for) other citizenship in his later life. Tomeasy _{T C} 10:11, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

This is an article about Germany. When one uses an example of a German, this implicitely creates the impression to the reader that the national identity, not only the legal nationality, of the individual in question is German. I am not arguing that Einstein is not a German. From a legal perspective, he is a German, a Swiss, an Austrian, and an American. I am not arguing that from all these nationalities, the one that characterises him the most is the German. What I am saying is that he is a poor example of a German scientist.

What I am suggesting is to remove the empasis given to Einstein as German scientist. I am not suggesting that he shouldn't be mentioned at all. The grounds of my proposal is that it creates a wrong picture. It might be a favourable picture for Germany, and an acceptable picture in the U.S.A., but[REDACTED] is not about promoting or perpetuating some particular image (see WP:NPOV). Misplaced Pages's content should be neutral and reliable. Nxavar (talk) 12:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Seriously. I don't know what you're getting at exactly. The Einstein photo is perfectly neutral where it is. Just as any other picture of the article. -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 13:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Btw, we're not implying that Hitler was born in Germany by showing his picture here. Just in case you were curious... :/ -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 14:26, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Hitler was a leader of Germany. Both in times of peace and times of war. It is a completely different case. You don't know where I'm getting at? I suggest that we replace Einstein's picture with Max Plank's picture. That's what "emphasis" was about. Nxavar (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

If it's a matter of being identified as German, perhaps the results of a 1996 survey in England would be of interest. When asked to write down the ten most famous Germans, living or dead and not including the chancellor, those most frequently mentioned were:

1. Adolf Hitler
2. Jürgen Klinsmann
3. Boris Becker
4. Steffi Graf
5. Michael Schumacher
6. Ludwig van Beethoven
7. Lothar Matthäus
8. Albert Einstein,
9. Michael Stich
10. Joseph Goebbels
11. Hermann Göring

The contemporary sports people are more ephemeral, so might be best ignored in an encyclopaedia. --Boson (talk) 15:29, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

As I said before, Misplaced Pages is about facts and neutrality, not popular impressions. Also, you cannot remove a discussion because you consider it "done", Horst-schlaemma. That's not a valid reson to delete content from Misplaced Pages. Was any of the previous discussions about Einstein removed after being considered done? Returning to the original issue, what's the big deal with replacing Einstein's picture with Max Plank's? Does anyone here think that it takes away value from the article? Nxavar (talk) 07:13, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't remove but archive it and it was indeed done as this is leading nowhere. Hardly anyone will agree with you here. We're not replacing Beethoven with Haydn either. We're putting the ref people in this article. -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 09:25, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It is your opinion that this is leading nowhere. Also, if there is no particular reason to replace something, you don't replace it. This is correct. However, I have presented many reasons why we should replace Einstein's picture. If there is a reason for replacement then the obvious thing to do is to replace. In anycase, there is automatic archival after a thread is inactive for 3 months, according to the policy of this page. Nxavar (talk) 10:08, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It's rather obvious you're on a mission here. Dunno what it's aimed at, but it obviously is a mission impossible and non-constructive. Cheerio Horst-schlaemma (talk) 10:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

This is not an answer. It is a personal attack. The worst form of unconstructive criticism (see WP:PERSONAL). Nxavar (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Can we just leave this discussion here for a while and see if anyone agrees with the proposal? Even if there is obviously no consensus for change at present, it is a valid point, and selection of images is a matter of editorial judgement. If no-one agrees, it will die a natural death, or someone uninvolved can formally close the discussion, using {{archivetop}} and {{archivebottom}} (sometimes called "archiving"). --Boson (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

We really don't need such a discussion again - not only people from other countries strongly "identify" Einstein as being German, but also German people themselves; e.g. → see: Unsere Besten --IIIraute (talk) 17:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

The question is not about whether Einstein is a German or not. It is about emphasising the fact that he is a German. Such emphasis is problematic since Einstein has held many nationalities and he didn't appear to identify strongly with Germany (see above). Nxavar (talk) 14:18, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I think your point has been made and understood. That does not mean that others must agree with your conclusions. That he is strongly identified as German by others is also relevant. This is not a matter of gender, sexual orientation or religious affiliation, where self-identification may be given more weight. If you feel that others would support your position, you are free to start an RfC. --Boson (talk) 15:17, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The article is not "emphasising the fact that he is a German" per se. The article section "Science and technology" puts emphasis on the fact, that "Germany's achievements in the sciences have been significant, and research and development efforts form an integral part of the economy.The Nobel Prize has been awarded to 104 German laureates. For most of the 20th century, German laureates had more awards than those of any other nation, especially in the sciences (physics, chemistry, and physiology or medicine)" and that "The work of Albert Einstein and Max Planck was crucial to the foundation of modern physics ..." This article is not about Germans, but about "Germany's" achievements in the sciences, to which Einstein contributed an integral part: Einstein was "the director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics, and a professor at the Humboldt University of Berlin, as well as a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences. In 1916, Einstein was appointed president of the German Physical Society. In 1917, at the height of his work on relativity, Einstein published in Physikalische Zeitschrift his Modern quantum theory. In 1921, being a German citizen, Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics." --IIIraute (talk) 15:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

@Nxavar Your point is emphasis, as I understand it. Placing a picture of a person in this article, I agree, does emphasize. Where I do not follow you is that it emphasizes that Einstein had a strong German National identiy. I find this point a bit constructed. The emphasis I see is that Einstein's contributions to science may have been the most notable of all German scientists - and not that he was the most German-feeling scientists of all. Honestly, I am also not very concerned that most readers will be mislead in this direction.

The following analogy may illustrate what I find wrong about your point. Consider the article on Jews. It may very well be possible (currently it isn't) to show a picture of Hitler, Himmler, or Eichmann there. This would put emphasis, but not on the fact that they identified as Jews, rather that they played a crucial role in the history of Jews. Pictures of individuals emphasize their relevance to the subject, not their identification or agreement with it.

@Horst-Sch. Don't even try to defend it. A discussion that is ongoing should not be archived. Obviously, this is perceived as aggressive - certainly when done by somebody who is a partisan in the discussion. Tomeasy _{T C} 16:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, not everybody with a picture on some country's article is a national of that country. The pictures are always understood in the context of the acticle's nearby content. What happens in the case of Einstein's picture is that the article goes into the topic of German scientists, with the picture giving a representative example of a German scientist. If the picture was in a hypothetical section about German-Jews, this discussion would not be happening. If the description of the image mentioned that he is a German-Jew, that would still be acceptable. However, in the current state of the article, the use of Einstein's picture is problematic. Nxavar (talk) 17:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I would not have a problem stating that Einstein was a Jew, but is it really necessary? Two aspects: If you look at German Nobel laureates before WWII, this was quite common. Moreover, (I know this is a complex topic) Jewism is arguably a religion. For what I know, in a religious sense, Einstein's beliefs were not very Jewish. Why would we mention the religion anyway. On the other hand, Jewism is considered by many, probably Einstein himself, as more than a religion. I do not know this, but I can well imagine that he felt as part of the Jewish people in an ethical sense. What I am trying to say: putting such kind of labels on a person can be problematic as they mean different things to different people and again to the person itself. Also, not everything that is true must be stated explicitly. Some things are so ordinary that they need no mention. Having said all this, I am not completely against mentioning this here. I am sure there are sufficient sources to back it up, however it is meant. Tomeasy _{T C} 20:17, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

My point is not about his religion. I mentioned his identification with Jews from a nationality standpoint. As of 1948, this is indeed a nationality. Also, this was one of the points I raised, not the only one. Nxavar (talk) 10:22, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Politics Section – Which parties should be classified as major?

I, German, stumbled across "Minor parties such as The Left, Free Voters and the Pirate Party are represented in some state parliaments". The Left Party is in fact the largest opposition party and the third-largest overall by Bundestag seats. In many state parliaments it doesn't have any seats which may justify the "minor" classification, but from a federal point of view this isn't a neutral assignment.

If anyone were to explore this subject in detail I'd say there are four levels of party size: 1.) The "Volksparteien" CDU and SPD, 2.) other parties in the Bundestag, 3.) other parties in some Landtagen, the state parliaments, and 4.) the rest. 1.) and 2.) shouldn't be designated "minor" in my opinion due to the high vote threshold in Germany, at least not currently where there are no parties in the Bundestag significantly below 10%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.27.244 (talk) 17:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

2014 POPULATION ESTIMATE According to the statistics of Germany, the population already reached 80,716,000, and last October it increased by another 45,000 more. The "2014 estimate" refers to the population in 2011. The estimation has been done in 2014 but it refers to population in 2011. So, the 2014 population estimate should say 80,716,000.-- It would be easier if there was a link to the "List of coutnries by population" to know the population estimate83.63.225.149 (talk) 17:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Demographics, migrant background

Could Sdg198, or someone else, explain exactly where the (new) data for the so-called ethnic groups came from? The page number (189) given for the Migration Report does not appear to be correct, and there are unexplained discrepancies with some of the figures if I use the table on page 138. By the way, I believe the usual English term is "migrant background" (not the "literal" translation migration background).

"Ethnic groups" is also not correct, of course. The figures, presumably, apply to the present or former nationality (not ethnicity) of the persons concerned (or their parents). --Boson (talk) 23:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the page number, it appears that the migration report has changed since I last saw it, and thus page 189 is indeed incorrect. The same information is on page 138. What exactly are these discrepancies on page 138?

I'll change the term to migrant background if that sounds better. Regarding ethnicity vs nationality, you are right on that, although it's worth noting that "former nationality" is the only statistic that the German government records, so any previous statistics alluding to ethnicity will have in fact been actually nationality (of course given the main countries Germany has received migrants from are relatively homogenous nationality and ethnicity will be highly correlated in this case, but I still concede your point). What do you think the statistics should be described as? Sdg198 (talk) 08:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Problems with Weimar Republic and the Third Reich

I re-wrote the last paragraph in this section and it was reverted by IIIraute. There were several problems with the paragraph that related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view:

1- It gave only the numbers of German soldiers and civilians killed and not the far higher numbers for the millions of other people who were killed by the Germans during the world's largest genocide in modern history (specifically it stated, "several million Jews, Romani people, Slavic people, Soviet POWs, people with mental and/or physical disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, and members of the political and religious opposition.... war casualties for Germany are estimated at 5.3 million German soldiers, millions of German civilians"). I re-wrote this to include numbers for all of the peoples killed, not just German soldiers.

2- The figure given for German soldiers was ONLY the highest estimate ever made, provided by a German academic, like the person who reverted my edits (IIIraute). The West German Government's estimate was only 4 million (See German casualties in World War II) so I corrected this by including the lower estimates while still including the higher 5.3 million figure in order to keep a NPOV.

3-Other problems included a clear bias toward Germany sympathies, citing what it termed the "mass rape of German Woman" and the "destruction of German cities" by allied bombing. While this did happen, and I did not remove this information, the major historical event of the Third Reich Era (topic of the section) is not the rape or bombing that occurred from 1940-1945 but the world's largest genocide. And since most of the paragraph is about that genocide I included a picture of that and not a picture of a building destroyed in a German city.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

There does appear to be a certain David Irving-esque bias to that section.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The Buchenwald concentation camp photograph: really necessary on an overview page for Germany?

I am opposed to Monopoly31121993's edit introducing a photograph of dead Buchenwald prisoners into the article. The image is, I would argue, unnecessarily graphic for inclusion on this particular page. (Of course, in articles dealing specifically with the topic of the Holocaust, this sort of photograph is much more relevant)

I also question the need for an additional image in this part of the article, irrespective of its nature.

Ilraute thanked me for reverting this edit - so I'm going to assume there is at least some opposition to this photo.

Surlyduff50 (talk) 18:38, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

And I'm opposed to removing the image. The Holocaust is an important part of history, whether it was "graphic" or not. I'm not seeing a policy relevant reason for removal.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I support replacement of the picture. We should restore the image of Berlin in ruins, showing the "after" picture for Nazi Germany. It better illustrates that section. I also think we need an extremely good rationale before we introduce pictures of dead people, weighing up the (very rare) need to depict such horrors and the dignity of those portrayed. --Boson (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

As the picture shows what took place it should be kept.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Re Boson, I don't know. Removing a picture which illustrates the Holocaust and replacing it by a picture of Berlin in ruins... smacks of Third Reich apologetics. I'm not saying that's what it is, just that's what it sort of looks like. I could see having both pictures in there, as they illustrate different things, but if we're going to go with only one, it's got to be the Buchenwald one. The Holocaust is THE important part of history here, that's how the text is organized, and that's what the image should illustrate.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:54, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't prevaricate - it was the "Berlin in ruins" picture that got replaced. --IIIraute (talk) 23:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I do not see how the Holocaust picture is irrelevant in the page about Germany. The Holocaust is a major event of the 20th century. Since the Nazi Germany was responsible for planning and execution, it seems natural to put focus on the Holocaust in the article on Germany. Nxavar (talk) 21:59, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Nobody said the photo is "irrelevant". It is a question of whether or not such a photo is appropriate on the overview page for Germany. Surlyduff50 (talk) 23:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it be? Or, in other words, what is the policy based reason for removal, other than your own WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• In reply to the section above → Problems with Weimar Republic and the Third Reich, and the current discussion:

  A short history, (hitherto) regarding the editors involved at the last two talk page topics - as well as my two pennies worth:

  Monopoly31121993 (a recently created account), rewrites parts of the long-standing and stable "Weimar Republic and the Third Reich" section, criticising that this part of the "Germany" article has too much German perspective in it. Also, the "Berlin in ruins" picture gets replaced with the "Buchenwald" picture.

  Then, Nxavar, rewrites part of the "‎Science and technology" section, and adds a "citation needed" tag to the part below, because now (after this edit) this part of the paragraph doesn't make sense anymore. Additionally, some more emphasis on Nazis and the Holocaust is added.

  Surlyduff50 removes the "Buchenwald" image, stating: "I have a moral objection to the graphic nature of this image."

  Volunteer Marek joins the edit warring and the talk page discussion.

  IMHO, neither the new content that was added, nor the picture, will remain in this article for very long - therefore I don't think that the changes will help to maintain a stable article. This article only includes a brief summary of the Weimar Republic, the Third Reich/WWII, while more information on the individual topics is available at the relevant articles, containing accurately described content that was discussed thoroughly. For all of the editors involved, it might be interesting to note, that even for the Nazi Germany article, it was decided to separate the details of the "Racial politics" from the "History" section.

  In my opinion it is certainly worth having a look at the the Russia article, or the Japan article, which is one of the "Featured articles in Misplaced Pages; see Japan#Modern era. Some orientation on the Encyclopædia Britannica article on Germany also could be useful. --IIIraute (talk) 02:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Aside from the obvious WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS part, which is irrelevant, I'm having trouble understanding your comment.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

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