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:I don't really have an opinion on this, but FWIW Misplaced Pages has an article on ]. ] (]) 05:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
:I don't really have an opinion on this, but FWIW Misplaced Pages has an article on ]. ] (]) 05:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
::It appears that it is not uncommon for rival groups of leftists to call each other left-fascists. ] (]) 05:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
::It appears that it is not uncommon for rival groups of leftists to call each other left-fascists. ] (]) 05:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
:::Modern Fascism originated 100 years ago when the question of how to respond to the outbreak of World War I disrupted socialist organizations. ] had been a leading Socialist Party activist and newspaper editor when he was ousted for nationalist support of the war. He then founded the fascist movement. Fascism originated, then, as a specific nationalist variant of revolutionary socialism. ] ] 02:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Lyndon LaRouche is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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Sources
LaRouche lived all his adult life in New York (1953–1983) or Virginia (1983–present), which means the two major newspapers of record are The New York Times and The Washington Post. Both have written extensively about him, including several extended investigative and analysis pieces from the 1970s to the 2000s. These articles provide the structure of much of this article—in that we highlight what they highlight. For their archives on LaRouche see below. For the books we use see here.
Mintz, John. "The Cult Controversy", The Washington Post, includes a series on LaRouche.
Interviews and original research
This is for the benefit of 69.243.1.208 who is presumably a new editor and unfamiliar with policy. This editor is edit-warring to restore this material, which comes from an interview. We stay away from using interviews as source material (see WP:PRIMARY.) We avoid using primary sources because it puts the Misplaced Pages editor in the position of selecting a few sentences from a long interview, because that editor finds them appealing, or hopes to make some sort of point. Instead, we prefer secondary sources, because some author with credentials and/or editorial oversight, whose identity may be verified by Misplaced Pages readers, is making an informed decision that the lines in question are of particular interest. See also Misplaced Pages:No original research. Joe Bodacious (talk) 03:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Fursov redux
Volunteer Marek has removed the Fursov quote on the grounds that "he is a crazy conspiracy theorist who thinks the Boston Marathon bombing was orchestrated by the US government." I did a web search and I found no evidence that he has said that. I did find that he has said some things about Ukraine which are likely to run counter to Volunteer Marek's ideology. If there is a reliable source saying that he said something weird about the Boston Marathon (either than that the US ignored intel provided by the Russians, which is common knowledge,) please post it. If there is reliable secondary source that is BLP-worthy and says Fursov is a nut, please provide a link to that. Otherwise, please refrain from deleting sourced material which has already been extensively debated, translated, etc. on this talk page. Joe Bodacious (talk) 23:34, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Searching through the Talk page and archives leads me to believe there has never been a consensus to add Andrey Fursov to this article. So I would wait until one develops, or just leave it out. There have been many attempts to put 'reviews' in this article that were nothing more than LaRouche paid advertisements or Schilling Institute ravings. Dave Dial (talk) 23:52, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
The matter of translation was a subject of a previous discussion. I can't find the link right now, I can post it later. If you type in "Fursov" into the search archives box in the talk page templates above you can find it - a few clicks away. The point though - and this was the point made in that previous discussion - is that regardless of whether Fursov is being translated correctly or not, he is simply not a reliable source of the kind that you'd want to include in an Encyclopedia article. Because he's a conspiracy guy and all. Who thinks that the Boston Marathon bombings were the work of US government. And other stuff (that discussion took place, IIRC, before the Boston Marathon bombings and it concerned other wacky things he said). So it really doesn't matter if it's being translated correctly or not. It's just WP:FRINGE stuff.
The only way I can see of including that quote is if we say "According to the conspiracy theorist Fursov..." or something like that. But per WP:BLP it just makes more sense to leave it out altogether.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
The BLP violation is a bigger deal. I'm not familiar with his fringe views on the Boston bombing but I would have to review them. Honestly since it's unrelated to the topic at hand I'm not sure that disaqualifies him. He is apparently a well known Russian Historian. Without verifying your position that is what comes to mind.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 02:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I guess that depends on how you define "well known Russian Historian". None of the Russian historians I know of take him seriously or are even aware of him. He's got a degree though I guess.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:17, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't define that. And really you haven't offered up much to define that with. You mention his fringe positions. I'm just not sure calling the world flat removes your reliability to call the moon round. That be a long and painful conversation that I honestly feel you want to have and certainly I don't want to have it. The above policies I mention however offer a pretty straight forward case. That case can be worked around by for instance offering something other than a mchine translation. But then in the case that there's more to look at. If this machine translation were acceptable I would ask what is the relevence and what is being said. His opinion on Western critics of LaRocuhe may fall under being a significant minority POV but in that case a question of notability Pops up. But "Fursov said that in Russia not so many people know of Larouche, although, of course, the important thing is not the quantity, but the quality." I'm not sure what that means. I have assumptions but I think as this seems to be a primary source and the assumptions would basically be original research. I missing the relevence behind it's inclusion. A small undetermined group in Russia like LL. But then as I said I don't have a proper translation to really ask anything. But I think we both currently agree that this shouldn't be in the article.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 03:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Gentlemen, if you would be so kind as to scroll up the page just a little, or click here if you prefer, you can find the first Fursov discussion, which didn't happen all that long ago. The translation is not by a computer, it was made by User:Amble at the Russian Reference Desk. I followed the link to Marek's video and I am unimpressed -- what he says is ambiguous and could be easily interpreted as a claim that the US simply exploited the bombings to change the subject from other, more embarrassing topics. Compare that to some of the truly outlandish claims by Chip Berlet or Dennis King which are all over this article -- and neither of them is a credentialed academic. Since we are giving so much weight to those claims, I think it is appropriate under NPOV (if we can't simply remove them under BLP) to allow Fursov to rebut them. We can't call Fursov a conspiracy theorist based on Marek's opinion, due to the rule against Original Research. In fact, I'm still waiting for any reliable secondary source that might discredit Fursov. Joe Bodacious (talk) 15:58, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
You sourced it to a machine translation. When someone clicks your source they go to the machine translation. "Fursov said that in Russia not so many people know of Larouche, although, of course, the important thing is not the quantity, but the quality." I wondering how this is relevent. It really sounds like inane banter. As far as the rest of what he says, I'm sure why it should be removed even if he is a conspiracy theorist. The question I would pose is if he's represnts a significant view point ( minority or otherwise). Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:17, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I didn't source it to anything, I'm not the one who added it. The line for which you are wondering about relevance was added much later by Binksternet, who mistakenly thought that it was negative and was therefore eager to add it. User:Amble was asked to clarify the translation, and it turned out that it meant something different than what Binksternet thought. As far as I am concerned, that sentence is useless and should be removed. The part about people who call LaRouche a fascist should stay, as long as we are also quoting the people who call LaRouche a fascist. Joe Bodacious (talk) 21:53, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaking we have a consensus here to leave out, "Fursov said that in Russia not so many people know of Larouche, although, of course, the important thing is not the quantity, but the quality." As for the machine translation as a source you were the last person to restore that information so it does really follow you. If you go to restore it at any point use the original source instead of the machine translation. Serialjoepsycho (talk) 00:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree that there is a consensus to omit that section. The section which was there earlier, where Fursov refutes the Dennis King claim that LaRouche was secretly a fascist, should stay under NPOV, unless the King claim is also removed. The only argument that has been offered against the Fursov quote is Volunteer Marek's personal opinion, based on a tortured interpretation of a YouTube video, that Fursov is "fringe." Dennis King's book is available online and I have read parts of it -- King jumps to the wildest and most extraordinary conclusions based on the wispiest evidence, which to me is the hallmark of a conspiracy theorist, AKA "fringe." King also has no credentials of any sort that I am aware of, whereas Fursov has a Phd in History, is the Director of Russian Studies at Moscow University, and is a member of the International Academy of Sciences. Under the circumstances, I can think of no policy-based reason to retain King's BLP-problematic accusation while excluding Fursov's refutation. I hope that some of the edit-warriors who have been deleting it will provide us here with some explanation. Joe Bodacious (talk) 02:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Lead too short
I have tagged this article because the lead is much too short. I came here to learn about LaRouche's political philosophies, hoping they'd be in the lead. The article is 187,296 bytes before my tag and WP:LEADLENGTH would suggest that the lead be at least 4 paragraphs. As I know nothing about this topic, I felt a tag was better than WP:SOFIXIT. Would people following this page be so kind as to add to the lead? Thank you. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:24, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
There is a separate article on LaRouche's political philosophies, Views of Lyndon LaRouche and the LaRouche movement. Up until the end of last year there was a longer lead for this article which I thought was better, but there was an unfortunate edit war, which apparently could only be ended by adopting the present super-short lead. Here's a link to the older version: Joe Bodacious (talk) 18:19, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
@Joe Bodacious: Thanks for the reply! I'll check out that article. This page still really does need a longer lead though. But I can understand why edit wars might occur here. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
WP:BLPN regarding "controversial" in first sentence
I removed it. There is no question that the man has been controversial, but that cannot be in the lede, and it cannot be "said" in Misplaced Pages's voice. §FreeRangeFrog00:07, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes it can. The fact that LaRouche is controversial is widely known, not a matter of dispute. The possible sources supporting the word "controversial" are legion, and we cited one of them in the first sentence.
Agree. It's probably the least of the descriptors one could use in the lede. This is not a BLP issue. There can surely be a discussion about what descriptors to use in the lede, but to pretend it's a BLP issue to describe a controversial figure as "controversial" is a step into fantasy land. Dave Dial (talk) 01:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Nope. We (as in we, the supposedly neutral Misplaced Pages editors) cannot flat out call someone "controversial" so that the people who read the article think we've poured our negative opinion of the subject into the intro, no less. We can say something like "LaRouche's (career, views, eating habits, whatever) is considered to be controversial by XYZ" followed by a good set of citations. That's what WP:NPOV exists to enforce - avoiding passing judgement on a subject. "Controversial" is as inappropriate there as "brilliant" would be, which I assume would be removed without hesitation if a fan of his politics decided to add it. §FreeRangeFrog05:58, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Both "controversial" and "brilliant" may be appropriate for rare biographies. This one is most certainly appropriate for "controversial". LaRouche is so controversial that people use him in passing as an obvious example of someone who is controversial, despite the text being about something completely different. Here are some sources specifically about LaRouche:
LaRouche's own biography, published by his own organization, says he ranks "among the most controversial international political figures of his time".
Respected military historian H. Paul Jeffers writes, "The protesters were led and organized by and consisted mainly of supporters of Lyndon LaRouche, a controversial political figure." Freemasons: A History and Exploration of the World's Oldest Secret Society, page 107, Citadel Press, 2005.
John M. Allswang, Professor of History at California State University, Los Angeles, wrote that "the leaders of these proposition campaigns were primarily political rather than medical figures, and none of them was more controversial than Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr." The Initiative and Referendum in California: 1898–1998, page 190, Stanford University Press, 2000.
When I submitted Vaillancourt Fountain for GA review, I got mild criticism for including 8 or 9 references calling the fountain "controversial" so I trimmed the references back a bit. In this case, I think it would be an easy matter to find scores of references calling LaRouche "controversial". It might be difficult to find any in-depth coverage of LaRouche in reliable independent sources that doesn't use the word "controversial" or a close synonym. We should summarize what reliable sources say, and this characterization seems completely justified. CullenLet's discuss it06:38, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
There is no issue with using controversial. The MOS is about the effect and usage of words. How do you think this usage has introduced bias?Serialjoepsycho (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Modern Fascism originated 100 years ago when the question of how to respond to the outbreak of World War I disrupted socialist organizations. Benito Mussolini had been a leading Socialist Party activist and newspaper editor when he was ousted for nationalist support of the war. He then founded the fascist movement. Fascism originated, then, as a specific nationalist variant of revolutionary socialism. CullenLet's discuss it02:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
